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Victreebel [4F]

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Farewell, Nov 9, 2009.

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  1. Farewell

    Farewell

    Joined:
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    SORRY, I realize I didn't yet get accepted after I reserved Victreebel. This thread can be locked if neccessary. It was by accident I posted this, I was simply typing this out and PMing myself, to save until accepted, I clicked Post on accident.

    I concocted the "Victorybell" set for OU and UU play to great success, becoming a powerful mixed sweeper, even before the addition of Weather Ball. In Ubers, Victreebel needs to be adjusted, to outspeed more threats.

    Victreebel is now even more viable due to Weather Ball (allowing for Hidden Power to be something other than Fire if you decide to use them both, while also still doing decent damage to Steel types with a 150 Base Power Water Move under Drizzle conditions: say against Metagross / Heatran for example).

    [​IMG]

    http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/victreebel


    [SET]
    name: Ubers Victorybell
    move 1: Leaf Blade
    move 2: Sucker Punch
    move 3: Swords Dance / Sleep Powder
    move 4: Weather Ball / Hidden Power Ice
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Hasty / Naive
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe or

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p>What does Victreebel have over Tangrowth and Shiftry in Ubers? No, it's not just being able to absorb Toxic Spikes although that is a perk. Actually, its advantages are exactly what Tangrowth and Shiftry have individually: Tangrowth's access to Sleep Powder and superior Attack, plus Shiftry's access to Sucker Punch and superior Speed, make Victreebel quite capable of hitting both hard and fast, plus Victreebel's higher power and perfectly accurate Leaf Blade all help it sweep. But that's not all, thanks to HGSS, Victreebel's has the rare move Weather Ball, which not only makes up for the lack of Special Attack EVs, but also allows it to adapt under various weather conditions: granting it a 150 base power Fire move under Drought conditions, a 150 base power Water move under Drizzle conditions, or a 100 base power Rock move under Sandstream conditions. Additionally, many Steel or Ice types (like Weavile) are placed on teams packing Kyogre, which allows Victreebel to hit most Steels (barring Dialga) for even better damage than Hidden Power Fire would under Drizzle conditions: (i.e. a super effective Hidden Power Fire in the rain vs Forretress or Scizor has 140 base damage, whereas Weather Ball has 150 in the rain). On the other hand, if you plan on packing a Hidden Power, Hidden Power Ice is the way to go, hitting everything on the switch-in that would otherwise wall Victreebel's other attacks: Rayquaza, Giratina/Giratina-O, Scarf Lati@s, Scarf Garchomp, and to a lesser extent Scarf Skymin are all taking more from Hidden Power Ice than Hidden Power Fire, barring Scarf Dialga who can be put to Sleep.</p>

    <p>Sucker Punch and Leaf Blade are standard moves on any physical or mixed Victreebel set, with the former being necessary in case Drought is permanently (Kyogre, Tyranitar) or temporarily (Rayquaza) removed, and the latter able to hit all three weather changers for Super Effective damage on the switch-in as well as being Victreebel 's strongest physical attack. Your choice of the third and fourth slots depend on what you need most: an all around sweeper and wall breaker (Swords Dance and Weather Ball), or a check to many threats (Sleep Powder, and Hidden Power Ice). If you plan on going with Hidden Power Ice, Sleep Powder is more necessary to handle Steels that don't feel threatened by your other attacks, while with Weather Ball either Swords Dance or Sleep Powder are viable since Weather Ball in the Sunlight deals 300 base power to common Steels like Jirachi, or Metagross, while Sleep Powder still allows you to deal with Dialga, Ho-oh, and Giratina.</p>

    <p>Keep in mind that Weather Ball can still deal some decent damage to Ho-oh on the switch in under Drizzle, and especially Sandstream conditions, as well as the following turn, as both EV spreads outpace the now common Ho-oh Life Orb set, with Victreebel sitting at 230 Speed without Drought and Ho-oh sitting at 224 Speed. Weather Ball under Drizzle can also catch the rare Specs Heatran switch-in, so if your team packs both Uber weather changers, Victreebel can effectively take advantage of either; additionally, the rain will nullify the super effectiveness of Fire attacks, allowing Victreebel to survive weaker moves like Giratina's Hidden Power Fire, or Deoxys-E's Fire Punch.<p>

    [Team Options]

    <p>Support wise, having entry hazards will really help Victreebel's sweep, not just to secure KOs, but to also act as a deterrent to some of its counters, such as Stealth Rocks deterring Ho-oh from constantly switching in. Great allies to accomplish this are leads like Deoxys-S, who has access to both Spikes and Stealth Rock, as well as a fast Taunt to prevent the foe from setting up their own entry hazards. Forretress whom cannot only use Rapid Spin to rid your side of the field of entry hazards but also set up to all three of them himself makes a great teammate, especially when paired with a Ho-oh on your team, whom otherwise has trouble with switching into your foe's Stealth Rocks. Groudon also comes to mind, sporting Stealth Rock, and providing the much needed Drought, as well as supporting your team with the Paradancer or Support sets. Believe it or not, if you are not using Ho-oh, Kyogre can also make a great teammate for Victreebel, as mentioned earlier, it boosts Weather Ball, and reduces Super Effective Fire attacks for your teammates, and makes dual weather Palkia very viable for your team. Thanks to Sucker Punch, Victreebel is less reliant on Drought than other Chlorophyllers like Exeggutor, or Tangrowth, and with its current EV Spreads, Victreebel can outspeed bulkier sets like Sub Calm Mind Kyogre, Stall Breakers Giratina, even without Drought support.</p>

    <p> Offensively, a Ho-oh of your own provides an excellent set of resistances to Grass, Fire, Fighting, and Ground. Unlike most Fire moves used in Ubers, Sacred Fire, exclusive to Ho-oh, is physical, and has a 50% burn rate. Through this, Ho-oh can hit foes on their weaker Defense stat, and deter common switch-ins like Tyranitar from switching in for fear of being burned. Overall, this pheonix was made for the sun, and can be a real offensive threat even to its would be counters (like Kyogre), thanks to Brave Bird. Speaking of flying types, fighting back with Rayquaza of your own can help negate opposing Swift Swimmers like Kingdra from sweeping your team, being able to switch in on Water Moves, and outspeeding the common Mixed Kingdra sets. Mixed Palkia whom can benefit from both weathers with its STAB Water and Dragon attacks as well as Fire Blast boosted under the Sun can provide your team with a great set of Resistances (Fire, Water, Steel), while also supporting your team from both ends of the offensive spectrum. Other strong teammates include Scarf Dialga, who can come in on its many resistances or revenge kill threats like Rayquaza, Scizor, and even Kyogre with its strong offense and wide movepool. /p>

    <p>Defensively, Giratina provide excellent support with its many resistances, strong Defenses, W-o-w, and especially its Immunity to Rapid Spin, keeping your entry hazards on the field. Packing a Groudon will also boost Giratina's Hidden Power Fire to handle common threats to your Victreebel like Scizor and Lucario. Wobbefett can provide your team with a great way to handle Scarfed Pokemon like Dialga or Palkia, ridding your team of offensive threats, and trapping status abusers, and using Safeguard to protect the rest of your team, additionally, Encore helps your teammates switch into non-threatening attacks, and can let Victreebel set up its Swords Dance to sweep. And don't worry about Toxic Spikes ruining your teammates, Victreebel can absorb them upon switching in!

    [EVs]

    <p>First and foremost, Victreebel should always max its Attack, especially if it forgoes Swords Dance for Sleep Powder in the third slot. The EVs are designed to outspeed everything up to neutral natured Scarf Darkrai and Weavile, (reaching 524 Speed; one Speed above them) under Drought conditions, or 262 without. If you find them too uncommon, use this spread: 252 Atk / 36 SpA / 220 Spe. Now you have 318 instead of 308 Special Attack with life Orb factored in, and have 508 Speed under the sun to outpace aRock Polish Mew, Deoxys-E, or anything slower, otherwise your Speed is 254 without Drought. Keep in mind only max speed Kabutops, and max speed neutral nature Shiftry are in between the two benchmarks; the former needing Rain to outpace Victreebel, while the latter is simply too rare to pose a threat. Additionally, Kabutops can be handled by teammates like Groudon or Giratina, while Shiftry and can be handled by Dialga and the like.

    Both natures are viable, as Victreebel should only be coming in on resisted or non-damaging hits to begin with, however Hasty is preferred in order for Victreebel to take the more common Special attacks more effectively even though Victreebel's defense is naturally higher. A beneficial Speed nature is mandatory either way though, as you want to ensure Victreebel can outpace as many threats to your teammates as possible. With max Attack and backed by Life Orb, Victreebel's Attack stat reaches 399, and its Special Attack reaches 308, or 318 depending on the spread you choose.<p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Encore, Stun Spore, and Sleep Talk are options if you want to use Victreebel in a more passive manner. Encore is also an advantage over Shiftry, Exeggutor, and Tangrowth, although Jumpluff would arguably make the better choice for its much higher base Speed. Encore, does however, give you more opportunities to use Swords Dance, so it could go over your 4th move slot, especially when chosing the first EV spread. Stun Spore is another option if you already have a sleep inducer on your team, such as Scarf Darkrai and can forgoe Sleep Powder, although your probably better off using Thunderwave on a Paradancer Groudon since it is more accurate, and Groudon has the bulk to take hits. Finally, Sleep Talk is an option, albeit filler, incase you decide to use Victreebel as a Sleep absorber, however, this is borderline desperate as Victreebel has better options.</p>

    <p>Finally, another option is to simply replace the third slot with Hidden Power Ice, and keep Weather Ball in the fourth slot. This way you have the highest coverage and will be able to hit many of your counters on the switch-in, such as a Rayquaza with Hidden Power Ice, rather than relying on a shaky Sleep Powder if you packed Weather Ball. This way, you can have both a Fire move (Weather Ball) in addition to Hidden Power.</p>

    [Opinion]

    <p>Victreebel stands out for having the stats that make other Chorophyllers jealous, namely high stats in both offenses and decent Speed. While other Cholorphyllers have their own niche: Tangrowth has strong Defense and Sleep Powder, Shiftry has Sucker Punch, Nasty Plot & Explosion, and Jumpluff has amazing Speed & Encore, Victreebel gets a little bit of everything from its fellow teammates and a bit more in the form of Weather Ball. It's a shame Victreebel can't take advantage of its secondary STAB like many Swift Swimmers like Kingdra and Kabutops can, but at least Victreebel can adapt at being a decent mixed attacker, adapt to the ever-changing weather, and even pose a threat as a status inducer.</p>

    <p>In the end, Victreebel has just enough of everything to fill a spot on your very exclusive team, which is great when you need one Pokemon to fill more than one role, not to mention, absorb those pesky Toxic Spikes!</p>

    [Counters]

    <p>The counters are a little less straight forward than your average sweeper not just because Victreebel is a mixed sweeper, but because you just don't know whether it's packing Sleep Powder, and if it has Hidden Power Ice to nail your Rayquaza which thinks he is a safe switch-in. However, if Victreebel is packing both Swords Dance and Weather Ball, Rayquaza can switch in with no worry... just watch out for a Sucker Punch if you don't pack Extreme Speed. Overall, a sure fire (no pun intended) switch-in lies in Fire types like Ho-oh, or Heatran, as they take minimal damage from all of its moves, unless of course, you switch into Weather Ball during the Rain. Wobbefett also makes a decent counter to Victreebel, just make sure you Encore it first so it doesn't alternate between its physical and special attacks. Dialga, Giratina, Lucario and Scizor and Forretress can switch into Victreebel, the latter two are only if the weather isn't sunny, for Weather ball is 4x effective, also Giratina users shouldn't attack right away, otherwise they will face a super effective Sucker Punch. Finally, Lugia with Whirlwind, and faster Scarf Pokemon like Weavile can switch into Swords Dance or Sucker Punch and force a switch, either by phazing or threatening with move like Ice Shard.</p>
  2. supermarth64

    supermarth64 Here I stand in the light of day
    is a Contributor Alumnus

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    It's "Weather Ball", not "Weatherball".
  3. Kachalski

    Kachalski

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    In the EV's at the start, you should remove the "or" part, and insted list those EV's in the EV's section.
  4. Farewell

    Farewell

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