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Virizion (CM + SD + OO + Counters Update, GP 2/2)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by shrang, Mar 31, 2012.

  1. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    Finished updating the various parts. CM, SD, OO and counters have changes in them, and I've omitted the rest.


    [​IMG]

    http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/virizion

    [SET]
    name: Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Giga Drain
    move 3: Focus Blast
    move 4: Hidden Power Ice
    item: Leftovers / Life Orb
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>With Calm Mind, Virizion takes advantage of its excellent special bulk and typing to function as a special tank. While its base 90 Special Attack might seem quite underwhelming in a tier where base 130 offensive stats are commonplace, the most important thing to remember is that Virizion does not earn its keep by sweeping; Calm Mind Virizion is a great defensive pivot, as it resists many attacking types found on rain and sand teams. If Pokemon was soccer, then Virizion would be an excellent midfielder. It is able to both support the team by tanking powerful hits and go on the offensive when the opportunity arises. With the given moveset, Virizion can bust up common balance and stall cores, such as Ferrothorn + Jellicent + Gliscor. After setting up a Calm Mind, Virizion is near-impenetrable on the special side, with the exception of super effective STAB attacks.</p>

    <p>Giga Drain allows Virizion to feast on the many bulky Water- and Ground-types that plague the OU metagame, such as Politoed, Vaporeon, and Gastrodon, while restoring its HP. Focus Blast is Virizion's only decently powerful STAB attack; although its accuracy makes it just about the most frustrating move in the entire game, Focus Blast has the power to OHKO Skarmory after Stealth Rock with a Calm Mind boost. Hidden Power Ice rounds out Virizion's coverage by hitting Dragonite, Salamence, Landorus, and Gliscor for 4x super effective damage. After a Calm Mind boost, it OHKOes all of the aforementioned Pokemon, provided Dragonite does not have Multiscale active.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The item choice is quite important. Leftovers is clearly optimal, as it allows Virizion to tank most efficiently and reinforces Virizion's position as a supportive sweeper. Alternatively, though its recoil severely cuts into Virizion's bulk, Life Orb should be considered due to the sheer number of 2HKOs and OHKOs it provides. The following damage calculations give you a clearer picture of the benefits Life Orb brings; all calculations assume a Calm Mind boost:</p>

    <ul class=”damage_calculation”>
    <li>Life Orb Focus Blast vs 248/0 Scizor 104.08% - 122.45% (clean OHKO)</li>
    <li>Leftovers Focus Blast vs 248/0 Scizor 79.88% - 94.46%</li>
    <li>Life Orb Focus Blast vs 252/216 Scizor 81.40% - 96.22%</li>
    <li>Leftovers Focus Blast vs 252/216 Scizor 62.79% - 74.13%</li>
    <li>Life Orb Focus Blast vs 4/252+ Blissey 53.37% - 62.88% (clean 2HKO)</li>
    <li>Leftovers Focus Blast vs 4/252+ Blissey 41.41% - 48.77%</li>
    <li>Life Orb Focus Blast vs 252/216+ Jirachi 54.21% - 63.86% (clean 2HKO)</li>
    <li>Leftovers Focus Blast vs 252/216+ Jirachi 41.83% - 49.26%</li>
    <li>Life Orb Giga Drain vs 252/0 Politoed 96.88% - 114.06% (OHKO with Stealth Rock)</li>
    <li>Leftovers Giga Drain vs 252/0 Politoed 75.00% - 88.02%</li>
    <li>Life Orb Giga Drain vs 252/0 Jellicent 88.12% - 104.46% (OHKO with Stealth Rock)</li>
    <li>Leftovers Giga Drain vs 252/0 Jellicent 68.32% - 80.69%</li>
    </ul>

    <p>As shown above, Virizion makes good use of the additional power Life Orb brings; it is therefore an option worth considering on more offensive teams. If the 10% recoil per turn (16% in sand or hail) is undesirable, Fist Plate is a decent middle ground, as it preserves most of Life Orb Virizion's OHKOs and 2HKOs when using Focus Blast without the cost of recoil. However, it does nothing for Virizion's other attacks.</p>

    <p>The Speed EVs enable Virizion to Speed tie with other base 108 Pokemon, namely Infernape and Terrakion, and outspeed Landorus, to whom Virizion is probably the best offensive check. In terms of moveslot options, Hidden Power Rock enables Virizion to make quick work of Volcarona while retaining the ability to hit Flying-types. Be aware, however, that Hidden Power Rock lowers Virizion's Speed IV and removes the possibility of Speed tying with Infernape and Terrakion. Furthermore, while Hidden Power Rock hits only Volcarona, Hidden Power Ice's specific 4x coverage—on Dragon / Flying types, Gliscor, and Landorus—is generally more useful.</p>

    <p>Virizion's main counters are Latios, Latias, and Reuniclus; they can come in, set up Calm Mind boosts alongside Virizion, laugh off its attacks, then OHKO it with STAB Psyshock. Tornadus outspeeds Virizion and can OHKO it with Hurricane, while specially bulky Jirachi can switch in, paralyze with Body Slam or Thunder Wave, and proceed to KO with Iron Head. Note, however, that if Jirachi is having an unlucky day with Body Slam, and Virizion gets relatively lucky with Focus Blast, Life Orb Virizion will defeat Jirachi. Pokemon that can eliminate these threats are therefore good partners to Virizion: Tyranitar can remove the Psychic-types and Tornadus with Pursuit or Crunch and Stone Edge, respectively, while specially bulky Jirachi can take everything the aforementioned counters throw at it, paralyze them with Body Slam, and heal both itself and Virizion with Wish.</p>

    <p>Pokemon with strong priority, such as Scizor, Mamoswine, and Dragonite, can all revenge kill weakened Virizion relatively easily, while strong Choice Scarf users such as Haxorus will also take down Virizion quite quickly. Volcarona and Chandelure resist Virizion's entire moveset unless it carries Hidden Power Rock; the former can easily set up in Virizion's face with Quiver Dance and roast it with Fire-type moves, while the latter's Fire-type STAB attacks are often too much for Virizion to handle. In addition to sponging most priority attacks without much trouble, Skarmory can set up Spikes to whittle down Virizion's checks. Stealth Rock keeps Volcarona in check and thus should be set up as soon as possible; Terrakion and Landorus can also easily revenge kill all +1 Volcarona.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Swords Dance
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: Close Combat
    move 3: Leaf Blade
    move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Stone Edge
    item: Life Orb / Lum Berry
    nature: Naive / Jolly
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Virizion's usable Attack stat, excellent defensive typing, solid coverage, and good Speed make it a decent Swords Dance user. Swords Dance boosts Virizion's relevant offensive stat twice as quickly as Calm Mind does and thus makes it a bigger immediate threat. Furthermore, Swords Dance Virizion defeats most of the defensive Pokemon that trouble its Calm Mind counterpart. Close Combat is Virizion's main STAB, as it does severe damage after a Swords Dance. To illustrate this, with a Life Orb boost, a +2 Close Combat OHKOes specially defensive Jirachi. Leaf Blade is Virizion's secondary STAB, and is an excellent one at that, able to smack the numerous bulky Water- and Ground-types for super effective damage. In particular, Leaf Blade wipes Slowbro and Quagsire—the biggest obstacles to physical Fighting-types and stat-boosting Pokemon, respectively—off the map. Hidden Power Ice is preferred, as it easily 2HKOes Gliscor, but Stone Edge is a physical option that also takes down Flying-types. In addition, Stone Edge OHKOes Volcarona, who would otherwise comfortably wall Virizion.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>As Swords Dance Virizion is more geared towards sweeping, Life Orb is the item of choice. With it, Virizion easily OHKOes Slowbro with Leaf Blade and OHKOes offensive Gliscor 74% of the time. Even defensive Gliscor will usually lose to Virizion as Leaf Blade does 54.52% - 64.41% to 252/184+ variants. However, Lum Berry is an excellent option if your team is a bit more balanced, as it gives Virizion a layer of protection from Scald's burn chance and lets it set up freely on Rotom-W that try to use Will-O-Wisp.</p>

    <p>Psyshock variants of Latias and Latios both hard-counter Virizion, as they resist both Leaf Blade and Close Combat, laugh at Hidden Power Ice, take Stone Edge without much trouble, and often OHKO Virizion with Psyshock. Tornadus is also a solid counter, as it resists both of Virizion's STABs and can OHKO it with Hurricane, but it needs to be careful of Stone Edge. Celebi packs similar resistances to both of Virizion's STABs and can take a boosted Stone Edge. Even though Virizion detests passive sandstorm damage, Choice Scarf Tyranitar can easily trap and KO Latias and Latios with Pursuit, as well as outspeed and KO Tornadus and Celebi with Stone Edge and Crunch, respectively. If sandstorm is not to your taste, Politoed is another good teammate, as the rain it summons reduces Virizion's weakness to Fire.</p>

    <p>If Virizion is not running Life Orb, offensive Gliscor can easily take a hit and OHKO Virizion with Acrobatics. Skarmory can take a boosted Close Combat and OHKO with Brave Bird, but will be KOed by recoil damage if Virizion is carrying Life Orb. Toxicroak will also be an obstacle to Virizion in the rain, as it resists Leaf Blade, Close Combat, and Stone Edge and takes little damage from uninvested Hidden Power Ice. Similarly, Forretress can sponge Virizion's physical attacks all day and hit back hard with Gyro Ball. Mixed Salamence can lure in Gliscor and destroy it with Draco Meteor, hard-counter Toxicroak, and fry Forretress and Skarmory with Fire Blast. Magnezone can trap Skarmory and Forretress, while a bulky Gliscor of your own can also wall Toxicroak, in addition to using Taunt and Swords Dance to set up on Forretress and Skarmory.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Virizion is part of the legendary Fighting-type group and, as such, has access to their signature move: Sacred Sword. It has 30 less Base Power than Close Combat, but it has two advantages: it doesn't lower Virizion's defenses, and it bypasses opponents' defensive boosts. Sacred Sword can replace Close Combat on the Swords Dance set if the defense drops prove to be unbearable. Virizion also has access to Toxic and Roar, so it can act as a special wall and a phazer with some defensive investment. Choice Band and Choice Specs sets are usable but are generally outclassed by Virizion's other sets. Likewise, an all-out mixed set consisting of Close Combat, Stone Edge, Giga Drain, and Hidden Power Ice is feasible, but Virizion's ordinary offensive stats makes the set quite mediocre.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>While Virizion is fast, there are quite a number of Pokemon that outspeed it and resist its attacks. Latias is probably the best counter to Virizion, as she is naturally faster, resists both of Virizion's STABs, has excellent Special Defense, and can easily set up with Calm Mind; offensive variants can easily OHKO Virizion with Psyshock as well. Also, Latios and Tornadus cleanly OHKO Virizion with Psyshock and Hurricane, respectively. While Latios takes little damage from any of Virizion's moves, Tornadus has to watch out for Hidden Power Ice and the rare Stone Edge, although the former will not KO without a boost. Gengar fares well against Swords Dance variants, as it only needs to worry about Stone Edge and Hidden Power Ice; the latter does little damage, and both can be stopped by Disable if necessary. Alakazam is also a decent option if you're desperate, but it can't switch into Swords Dance variants; much the same applies to Espeon and Azelf. While it has difficulty switching into Virizion, Weavile can OHKO it with Ice Punch. Similarly, Mamoswine cannot switch into either of Virizion's STAB attacks, but it can revenge kill weakened Virizion with Ice Shard. Choice Band Dragonite can do the same with ExtremeSpeed, and other Choice Scarf Dragon-types, such as Salamence and Haxorus, will also fare well as long as they don't switch in on Hidden Power Ice.</p>

    <p>As for bulkier options, Chansey and Blissey check special sets that haven't gained too many boosts. While they do face a potential 2HKO from +1 Focus Blast, they have a very good chance of defeating Virizion thanks to Focus Blast's accuracy, especially if they carry Thunder Wave. Specially defensive Celebi can also take a hit and paralyze Virizion with Thunder Wave, which makes Virizion much easier to manage. Reuniclus has the bulk to sponge a boosted Giga Drain and can either hit Virizion hard with its STAB move or set up with Trick Room. Specially bulky Steel-type Pokemon will give Virizion trouble as well: Scizor can boost up with Swords Dance and OHKO Virizion with Bullet Punch, Choice Band Scizor can deal severe damage with Bullet Punch and easily cut its sweep short and Jirachi can defeat it with Body Slam and Iron Head. However, note that if luck favors Life Orb Virizion, it can defeat both Scizor and Jirachi. While relatively rare, Toxicroak can be a huge nuisance to Virizion in the rain, as it resists both of Virizion's STABs in addition to Stone Edge, can recover off damage from Hidden Power Ice relatively quickly due to Dry Skin, and can easily set up with Swords Dance or Bulk Up. Specially defensive Dragonite can comfortably boost up with Dragon Dance due to Multiscale. Volcarona can take its time to set up on Virizion with Quiver Dance, sponging any attack besides Stone Edge, as can Chandelure with Substitute. Finally, Skarmory is an excellent counter to both Swords Dance and Work Up sets, as it does not mind taking Close Combat, can easily OHKO with Brave Bird, and can choose to just set up Spikes.</p>

    <p>In general, sun teams easily handle Virizion: Ninetales is bulky enough to take most of Virizion's attacks, aside from a boosted Stone Edge, and can fry it with Fire Blast. Most sun sweepers do not care at all for Virizion, either. For example, not only does Venusaur resist both of Virizion's STABs, but it also outspeeds Virizion in the sun, and Venusaur can either hit Virizion hard with Sludge Bomb or put it to sleep with Sleep Powder. Sawsbuck outspeeds and can OHKO with Double-Edge, while Choice Scarf Fire-types, such as Darmanitan, Victini, and Heatran, will roast Virizion to a crisp with their sun-boosted Fire-type STAB attacks.</p>
  2. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk woop woop woop
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    Why would Work Up and Dual Screens be removed? I'm not really the biggest fan of those sets, but they both got added quite recently and there hasn't been a major metagame change since then, so I don't see why they have became unviable. (Work Up and Dual Screens). I wonder since when we remove sets that aren't even onsite for a month.
  3. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    Yeah, there haven't been any major metagame changes, it's just I don't think they're very viable in the first place.
  4. complete legitimacy

    complete legitimacy Honko's Happy Funtime With Men
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    Could HP Fire be mentoned on the CM set? I'm not even sure if it deserves a slash but maybe you could mention it in AC, since that will allow Virizion to defeat Scizor a lot more reliably, without having to be at +1 and use Life Orb to secure the KO. The main thing that comes to my mind with Virizion is its anti-metagame potential, being able to almost single-handedly defeat both VoltTurn and rain stall if you use HP Fire. Mamoswine could be a great partner to dismantle Dragons, Landorus, and Tentacruel, which in the latter's case would be troublesome no matter which HP you run.
  5. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk woop woop woop
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    So? QC approved both of them.
  6. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
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    ^ yea... I'm pretty sure that when QC approves something you don't just update the Pokemon to remove those sets. I know you're revamping the other sets too but I feel like removing sets that were already approved is just counterproductive
  7. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Yeah i don't really see any reason to remove 2 on-site sets, especially since, as Tomahawk said, no significant tier change has been made since they were posted.

    Also you are very wrong about the Work Up set. What do you mean by ''Virizion doesn't need to sacrifice its defences'' about the Work Up set? Work Up Virizion is exactly as a good defensive pivot as is CM Virzion, assuming you don't run Naive, which is stupid imo.

    So if you don't want to use a 70% accuracy move as your main STAB, while also being able to ohko Blissey and Chansey, the latter with LO, Work Up is a perfect choice for you.
  8. prem

    prem failed abortion
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    calm down people. he just said he doesnt like them so he would want to remove them. qc is gonna check over it anyway so if they think it should stay, it will stay
  9. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
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    Yea I personally hate the work up set as I just don't understand the advantage bar "you don't have to use Focus Blast". To my knowledge you don't beat anything that the other sets fail to do (if it does then that should really be mentioned cos atm I see nothing). Splitting its offences really hurts it when you factor in shit like its inability to OHKO Starmie -_- (this is according to the analysis). Granted, Starmie is not doing too much back outside of LO Ice Beam (which rather hurts if your running Naive) but it still shows just how weak you are with the split attack investment.

    On a different note could HP Rock be mentioned on the CM set, maybe in AC? It just looks like it could be useful against Volcarona, while still hitting Salamence and Dragonite. You miss out on Gliscor and Landorus but iirc the standard CM set beats them anyway with Giga Drain so its rather moot. Im not sure if HP Rock lowers the speed IV, if it does then feel free to disregard I guess as losing out on opposing Terrakion / Virizion / Infernape is a high price.
  10. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Advantages that WU Virizion has over SD Virizion:


    • Does not hate Burn as much
    • Can ohko Gliscor, max HP Dragonite and some more things with HP Ice at +1 that SD Virizion cannot(with HP Ice of 'course)
    • Has semi-reliable recovery with Giga Drain, meaning that it can use LO easier than the SD set, and can also survive more to tank special hits

    Advantages that WU Virizion has over CM Virizion:

    • Can OHKO mons that CM Virizion cannot at +0 and +1 respectively such as Tyranitar, Specially Defensive Heatran, Terrakion in Sand, Chansey and Blissey
    • Does not rely on a 70% accuracy move as its main STAB move
    • Can run Stone Edge to avoid getting walled by Volcarona, unlike CM Virizion
  11. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
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    Maybe im doing my calcs wrong but im pretty sure +1 LO CM Virizion OHKOs all those pokemon bar Blissey and Chansey.

    Just on the top of my head CM Virizion OHKOs CB Scizor while Work up doesn't, CM Virizion OHKOs Skarmory while Work up doesn't, have a better shot at beating Haxorus etc. The special defence helps with shit like Starmie (you get 2Koed otherwise), you have an excellent chance to avoid being revenged by Infernape if you lose the speed tie, CM Virizion does'nt get 2Koed by Scarf Landorus EQ and your not, 100% ass raped by priority from CB Scizor and CB Dragonite.

    Offensively, it might do o.k, but the fact that your dropping your defence, making you even more vulnerable to taking hits, is cause for concern

    Nitpicking a few more things

    I'll give you this one however, if Work Up Virizion gets burnt, its still pretty damaged. Close Combat is your primary source of attack damage, and while you have Giga Drain to fallback on, its still a bit weak.

    Gliscor is moot as you beat it anyway. I don't really care about the HP Ice calcs since in all honesty, id rather use Stone Edge, especially when +2 SE or CC usually does more damage than +1 HP Ice. Also, you beat Volcarona with Stone Edge and, yes, SD hits harder with SE than Work Up does.

    I still don't really see the advantage when it isn't really a better choice.
  12. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    It actually isn't. Again, Virizion is a defensive Pokemon first and foremost. I don't care which nature you're running, but you're forced to run a -Def or -SpD one way or the other. Virizion has 6 resistances, 3 of which are mostly physical (Ground, Rock, Dark) and 3 of which are special (Water, Grass, Electric). Something is going to have to give. If you run a Hasty nature, you are now cleanly 2HKOed by Scarf Landorus' EQ in the sand after SR, as well as taking priority like a wet paper bag. If you run a Naive nature, you're wasting that excellent Special Defense that Virizion has.

    These are actually quite small niches. The bolded italic bit is completely wrong, with the exception of the blobs, which only have a 51% chance of winning against Virizion anyway if you're running LO. Basically, you're giving up the big picture of Virizion by focussing on these really small niches. You are now forgetting that while you can OHKO the blobs with Close Combat, you know fail to OHKO Scizor, Forretress and Skarmory. You are forgetting that at +1 SpD, anything trying to kill you special attacks are just going to outright fail unless the move is called Psyshock or Hurricane. For Stone Edge, you can easily stick Stone Edge onto the CM set over HP Ice if you really want to since you OHKO Volcarona without investment anyway (it doesn't take much). As for SD, Gliscor fails to beat Virizion unless it's AcroBat since it can't hurt Virizion much anyway, while Work Up doesn't hate burn much less than SD anyway. Basically, the Work Up set is Virizion is trying to hit everything that it wants to hit, but loses track of what he's dropping. It's dropping the big picture to go after small nuances.

    But hey, no need to get so worked up over it (no pun intended), if QC really thinks it should stay, then I'll be fine with that. This is just a change which in my ideal world would happen, it doesn't mean that it's definitely going to go.

    It does.
  13. Nachos

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    I'd already done most of the C&C Virizion write up when you posted this, so if you want to use what I've wrote or some of it, go ahead.
    Show Hide

    Due to Virizion's speed, it'll likely that what you'll use it counter is something that is faster and resists its moves. Latios and Tornadus are examples of this and cleanly OHKO Virizion with Psyshock and Hurricane respectively. Whilst Latios takes little damage from any of Virizion's moves, Tornadus has to watch out for Hidden Power Ice or the more rarer Stone Edge, although the former will not KO before a boost. Gengar is also a good option, only worrying about Stone Edge or Hidden Power Ice; the latter will do little and both can be stopped by Disable if need be. Volcarona can take the time to set up on Virizion and doesn't fear it even if has a boost. Stone Edge is the only problem and that tends to be uncommon. Chandelure is in the same boat and can easily set up a Substitute if need be. Alakazam is also a decent option if you're desperate, but it can't switch into anything.

    In terms of bulk, Chansey and Blissey wall Special sets provided they haven't been allowed to boost too much. Specially bulky Steel-type Pokemon such as Scizor and Jirachi will give it trouble. Scizor can easily set up Swords Dances while Jirachi can defeat it with Body Slam and Iron Head. Dragonite, provided it has a high EV investment in HP and Special Defense, can easily set up on Virizion with Dragon Dance due to Multiscale. Other Dragons holding a Choice Scarf such as Salamence or Hydregion will also do fine as long as they don't switch in on Hidden Power Ice. Reuniclus has the bulk to a boosted Giga Drain, and can hit Virizion hard with its STAB move or use Trick Room.

    Generally, anything resisting it's STAB moves, Grass and Fighting, and can target its lower Defense stat will usually beat Virizion.
  14. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Here are some calcs:

    +0 FB (CM set) vs:

    - 252/192 Sassy Ttar: 100.99%-118.81%, sure OHKO
    - Terrakion in Sand: 89.81%-105.56%, possible OHKO after SR
    (these calcs are with Life Orb)

    - 252/192 Sassy Ttar: 77.23%-92.08%, posssible OHKO after SR, but unlikely. But this is besides the point anyway because no sane Ttar player would bring his Ttar into Virizion, so assuming that Virizion is switching in on a healthy Ttar, he cannot ohko
    - Terrakion in Sand: 68.52%-81.48%, 2hko
    (these calcs are with Lefties)

    +1 FB (CM set) vs:

    - Max HP / SpDef Heatran + nature: 107.25%-125.91%, sure OHKO
    - Max HP Blissey: 64.29%-75.63%, sure 2hko
    - Max HP Chansey: 59.91%-70.2%
    (these calcs are with Life Orb)

    - Max HP / SpDef Heatran + nature: 82.38%-97.15%, possible ohko after SR, but unlikely due to Protect
    - Max HP Blissey: 49.58%-58.4%, sure 2hko after SR
    - Max HP Chansey: 45.87%-54.29%, sure 2hko after SR
    (these calcs are with Lefties)

    WU Leftovers Virizion achieves all these OHKOes at +0 and at +1 respectively, with SR, except for Chansey, which needs SR and 1 layer of Spikes, where CM Virizion needs LO to do so, while also relying on a 70% accuracy move. So now taking LO and Lefties into the equation think again which set has greater survivability. If CM Virizion wants to take down the above threats it must run LO, which means significantly less survivability, while WU Virizion can OHKO all these targets without holding LO, which again means much greater survivability.


    LO WU Virizion OHKOes CB Scizor after 2 SR switch ins, and OHKOes Haxorus after SR, at +1. Skarmory hard counters though. About Starmie, it doesn't matter a lot, since you are going to go back to full life after Giga Drain him anyway. But of 'course the SpD boost from CM is helpfull for taking special attacks, not going to deny that, but most of the times, the opponent will try to take down CM Virizion from the physical side, because it is almost impossible to do from the special side. Having negative nature on Defense definitely sucks, but most of the hits that Virzion is supposed to take on a team are special hits, and most physical hits can still be shrugged of easily, such as Ttar's Crunch and Gliscor's EQ.

    Again, Virizion will be rarely needed to take strong physical hits anyway so the cases where the Defense drop matters are very few and very situational. You won't want to bring Virizion in against a Landorus and risk losing 40% of your health, if you can avoid it would you?

    As you said it gets semi-crippled, but semi usable is better than unusable.



    Gliscor is not moot at all. It can Toxic you and stall with Protect a few turns, leaving you easy picking for a revenge kill, or simply kill you if you are weakened enough (with Toxic damage i mean), or straight up OHKO you with Acrobatics. Of 'course you can run SE, but then WU Virizion has the advantage of being able to OHKO Gliscor, OHKO dragons without relying on a 80% move and OHKOing Landorus without LO and UNBOOSTED.

    I hope that now you can see these advantages more clear.

    As i said again, Virizion will be rarely relied upon to tank Landorus's hits, since they do a lot anyway, and if you want Virizion alive to tank hits from pokes that he is actually supposed to such as Rotom-W and Ttar, you would better want to avoid losing 30% or 40% of your health while Landorus switches out to a counter either by a normal switch or via U-turn. And not counting Landorus, most of the physical hits that Virizion is supposed to tank, can still be takes easily such as Ttars Crunch and SE, Gliscor's EQ and Ferrothorn's Power Whip. So the Defense drop matters in a few instances, but you cannot say that it lowers his tanking abilites, when all of the hits that Virzion is supposed to take can still be taken. And don't tell me about priority, since taking priority isn't Virzion's job anyway.



    Did the calcs alrdy, and elaborated on what i meant, should be much clearer now. And yeah being able to take down the blobs in one hit makes up for a world of difference. Or else have fun getting your Virizion paralyzed or Toxic'ed or even beaten if your 2 FBs don't hit, which happens 50% of the time lol. As said alrdy with LO and a WU boost you can still OHKO Scizor after 2 SR switch-ins. I am only mentioning the 2 SR switch-ins because we are talking about Scizor here, and considering the way he is played 2 SR rounds on him is a very realistical scenario. But of 'course it can't be taken as a given. The special defense buff is of 'course useful, but so is the ability to OHKO the blobs and have a STAB move not called FB, while also being able to OHKO some special walls such as Ttar and Heatran, without having to run LO. SE is a viable option on the WU set, because with the WU boost you can still kill the flying Dragons such as Mence and Dnite after SR, while also gaining the ability to OHKO one of your biggest counters. If you decide to run SE on the CM set, good luck getting walled by Dnite, Mence, getting Toxic stalled by Toxic Gliscor, getting ohkoed from Acrobatics Gliscor while you fail to OHKO with a +1 Giga Drain, and not being able to ohko Morning Sun Volcarona with SE.
    About Gliscor and the physical set, as you said you have to fear the Acrobatics set, which is pretty popular btw, and also have to fear Toxic from the standard set. After getting Toxic'ed and Protect stalled for a few turns and LO, you may even die before Gliscor does, so i don't see how this is not a problem.
    The WU set is not as specific as you say, it is a middle ground between the other 2 sets, that works well for any team that hates some of the cons of the 2 other sets that WU Virizion doesn't have.

    It's ok, i am trying to explain his function not only for the set to stay, but generally because many people fail to realize what he is doing (pretty much in the way that many people are playing wrong with CM Virizion).
  15. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
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    I have used Virizion extensively and I have never really been fucked by a Gliscor (granted I mostly run SD Lum but w/e). Not to mention that your opponent ether has excellent prediction skills or is retarded if he sends in Gliscor instantly on Virizion (considering CM flat out beats you and SD beats you too most of the time (always if its running HP Ice)

    Uhhh, did you miss the part that Virizion is predominantly an offensive pivot? As in, it switchs into something that it can force out and then set up? Seriously, Shrang and I have both used / tested Virizion extensively and using it as an offensive pivot is like THE reason id run Virizion instead of, say, Breloom, which lacks the quick, hard hitting punch that Virizion can provide after a single turn of set up. As Shrang and I are pointing out, the thing we both hate about the Work Up set, is that its losing its defensive stats in order to try and achieve that extra power, and even then your not doing too much better than the other sets. Being unable to switch into Scarf Landorus (one of the most common revenge killers in the game and a prominent sand threat) when you actually resist its STAB options really shows how weak you are. Standard CM Virizion can switch into Landorus, tank a hit, Giga Drain to recover a bit of health, or just Calm Mind if you think you can sweep). Work Up Virizion flat out loses and as a result finds struggles to find it that much harder to set up. If you drop your Special Defence then those Rain boosted Hydro Pumps start doing a fuckload and its even harder to pull off a boost. Lastly, there is your (still obvious) weakness to priority. Work Up Virizion LOSES to Scizor, sure, after 2 rounds of SR you can KO, however Scizor really doesn't need mich prior damage to wreck you with Bullet Punch anyway, Bullet Punch hits you before you can CC and considering that you have to switch out of Scizor the first time you see it (if it has'nt taken 2 rounds of SR yet) then you yourself are taking uneeded residual damage slipping you into KO range (or at the very least, Bullet Punch does enough that you kill yourself with LO afterwards). That negative nature really kills you when you take stuff like 40.86 - 48.29% if you try to switch into Gliscor, expecting an EQ. CM Virizion takes 36.41 - 43.2% which isn't too much difference, but quite frankly, id feel much better about setting up if I was the CM Virizion user rather than the Work Up one.

    tl:dr

    That loss of defence really REALLY hurts Virizion, plus, incidentally, I don't see this team beating standard Virizion counters that the other sets fail to do ergo, im still not seeing its general usability.
  16. Harsha

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    Can I just say this: you're basically arguing that Work Up Virizion is worse because it can't do with SD Virizion and CM Virizion do. The thing is, it's a completely different sweeper. CM Virizion uses its bulk to get a few Calm Minds in and then sweep. Swords Dance Virizion is used for immediate power. Now about lowering Virizion's Defense, Virizion's Defense is kinda pitiful anyways, and you shouldn't be relying on it to take physical hits. The question is NOT what it has over SD and CM, you can't even compare SD and CM. WU Virizion is used to break holes, and if you rely on it to take hits from teams, of course it's gonna die quickly.

    Basically, this is supposed to combine both sets and find a happy medium. It beats Chansey and Blissey, it still beats bulky Water-types, it can take down Gliscor all the same. I don't really see why it needs to be removed other than the point of a lack of Defense, and when you have a base 72 Defense, you shouldn't be expecting much out of it anyways.
  17. Conflict

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    Just gonna agree with shrang and giganinja here. I used all 3 Virizionsets (SD, CM and Work Up) and Work Up was the least useful one.

    Work Up's Close Combat is kinda weak (more like really really weak) and leaves Viri no chance vs stuff like Skarmory that could be killed in the course of a battle if you use CM or SD respectively (as soon as Skarm falls under ~70%).
    Add to that that Work Up is harder to setup and you can see why Work Up is inferior to both other sets (most of the time).

    Seeing as its already written though i see no harm done in leaving it on-site as long as the few advantages WU has are singled out.
  18. Setsuna

    Setsuna Prototype
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    I agree with your highlights, except for the removal of the Work Up and Dual Screen sets. We cleared both of these very recently and there really hasn't been any major change in the metagame that indicates we should revaluate their stay on Virizion's analysis page. In the case of Work Up, keep in mind that the play style here is different than what you would normally do with Swords Dance or Calm Mind, and besides it's not like we should take this set off the site because it doesn't score as many KOes as the other offensive sets do, or it's not as sturdy, or anything like what's been mentioned in some posts here. The fact is that it works, and so does the Dual Screens one. They're both good enough that QC decided to give them some space onsite. So, for now, they will remain there.

    Thank you for your proposed changes. Feel free to contact a writer to make the necessary changes and additions to the rest of the analysis, or go ahead and do this yourself with the site access you have.
  19. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Of 'course Gliscor won't trouble you if you carry a Lum Berry(btw Lum Berry is not even a main slash in the SD set so it is somewhat irrelevant in our discussion). Also by the time that Virizion will attempt to sweep, his moveset will have been scouted more often than not, so if my best answer to your SD Virizion is a Toxic from my Gliscor why not go for it?



    I know all these stuff man, but what i said is still true. Most of the times you will be forcing out stuff such as Politoed, Rotom-W, Ferrothorn that lack Gyro Ball and T-Wave, Ttar, Heatran, Gliscor, Starmie without a Psychic move, Magnezone etc., so the lowered defense will rarely matter. About Landorus, of 'course Virizion can check him, but most of the times shouldn't be your main answer to him anyway, because he takes a lot from Landorus attacks anyway, while being easily walled early game. So if i lead with my Scarf Lando and your best answer is Virizion, then you are already screwed since after i do 30-40% damage to you with U-turn/EQ, i can easily bring in something that walls Virizion, while you lost 1/3 of your life for nothing.
    So Virizion has the potential to check Lando, but generally should stick on switching into stuff that it can actually do such as the threats i mentioned before.

    About Scizor. Almost any Virizon set despises Scizor's strong priority, so i don't see why you are mentioning it as something only WU Virizion fears. Is the 5% difference in damage so big(the damage that BP does to other sets and this one i meant)? I don't think so...


    Anyway let's not continue this quote war, but pls stop asking from WU to do everything that the 2 others sets can do.
    He is supposed to be a middle ground solution between those 2 so give him a break can you?
    Can the other Virizion sets, have a reliable strong STAB move, while not getting useless by a burn?
    Can the other sets beat the blobs without getting crippled in the process, while also having semi reliable recovery?

    So if you want a Virizion that has great survivability (Giga Drain and possibly lefties), has a reliable strong STAB move, can switch into Rotom-W without fearing a burn as much as the SD set does, can OHKO the blobs and some other pokes that the CM set fails to at +0 (look my above posts to see what i mean), and finally a Virizion that can OHKO Volcarona then this is the one you want.
    If you want a combination of any of the above traits, that the other 2 sets lack, WU Virizion is a fine alternative.
  20. Harsha

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    Hey, the Virizion sets are staying onsite lol alexwolf.
  21. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Yeah i know Harsha, just wanting to clear some things up.
  22. asterat

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    I hate when people do things like this.
    1) Work up virizion is it's best set, or certainly second only to swords dance. It beats the usual counters and makes an excellent counter to (rain) stall teams.
    2) Calm Mind is not a wonderful idea because of the relevance of SpD Jirachi and to a lesser extent, Heatran. To a lesser extent NP celebi can boost then hit hard with a psychic. The slow boosting isn't effective when virizion can easily be revenge killed through it's weaker defense. It needs to abuse it's typing, boost/attack and then turn tail and run. Calm mind boosting is way too slow
    3)tyranitar is it's soulmate. With a choice scarf tyranitar, a mixed virizion and 4 other SS guys I easily reached 1380+ on PO. (That team is a work in progress and I'm using other stuff so my account is currently In the dumps)
    4)Celebi is a pretty hard counter. It resists Virizion's STABs, and will take little from HP ice/Stone edge. (Use Scarf Tarlol). because of this as gimmicky as it may sound, X-scissor should be in AC
    5) I suggest removing the dual screens set. I do not see it's viability over Azelf.
  23. shrang

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    You're obviously one of those people in the "complete lack of understanding of how Virizion operates" group. Again, Virizion is not a Pokemon you slap on a team and expect it to sweep, stop trying to make it one. It's a support and defensive Pokemon first and foremost, with the added ability to go on the offensive when the opportunity arises. It's like trying to play Latias in the same way you do Latios.

    1) Work Up is not its best set. What usual counters can it beat? Can it beat Lati@s? No. Can it beat bulky Psychics like Reuniclus? No. Can it beat SpD Jirachi? Maybe, but not reliably at all, or any more reliably than CM or SD.
    2) So what if SpD Jirachi exists? You're going to get countered by something or rather. Heatran is easily OHKOed by +1 Focus Blast, so I don't know why you brought that up, and if anything, CM Virizion is the only Virizion that can claim to beat EVERY Heatran set, unless it's sunny, since the rare ScarfTran can easily revenge SD and Work Up, while failing to beat CM due to its SpD boost. The SpD boost from Calm Mind is very, very important in what Virizion does, especially with rain boosted Water attacks and Thunderbolt flying around everywhere. Starmie also does jack shit with Ice Beam when you're at +1. There's nothing wrong with Calm Mind boosting up slowly. Again, Virizion is not a mon you just send in, set up and expect it to sweep. Even then, at +1, Virizion still gets most the KOs that it needs anyway, as demonstrated by the calcs above. It OHKOs Skarmory and Forretress, which both SD and Work Up both fails to do.
    3) Good point, will mention Tyranitar.
    4) Celebi does not counter CM, as at +1, Virizion can tank Psychic and 2HKO with HP Ice. I can put a mention of X-Scissor in SD's AC and maybe Work Up, though.
    5) I want to as well, but it appears that QC is against that.
  24. yee

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    I always thought it was accepted that Work up is 100% outclassed by Calm Mind besides the fact that CM has to use Focus Blast, although that isn't that bad of a reason considering LO CM Virizion either dies to things like Skarmory/Scizor because of a miss or kills them. However, I cannot understand how Work Up is ever seen as "more powerful" and a "Rotom-W Counter", you are effectively left with Grass/Ice neutral coverage after screwing around with the wrong Rotom, so it really is almost useless after a burn. You get only one attack boost to split investment on 90 base attack stats which is hard to call immediately threatening, CC is notoriously weak because of this so I won't bother explaining that. Not to mention if you wanna kill Volcarona with the CM set you can just use Hidden Power Rock although it loses a lot of oomph against Dragonite.

    The standard Chansey (max hp/bold) takes 53.7% - 63.4% from a +1 Life Orb Focus Blast and 41.2% - 48.9% with Lefties, meaning as long as you hit a couple times and have left a scratch on it before (this is really easy to do with sand/sr wearing it down) you will beat it. Blissey takes more and rarely invests fully in SpD. You save drama by taking it out with a +1 CC but then you lose the ability to take a burn if you need to and more importantly any Steel that isn't weak to Fighting will beat you with ease (Bronzong, Forry, Sciz, Skarm etc.). Not only is there a noticeable overall drop in power, there's a bigger drop in the usefulness of Virizion's bulk.
  25. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    Okay, so like Setsuna has said, the Work Up and Dual Screens sets are off-limits. I'll just implement my proposed changes, if QC approves. So, if QC can go and have a look, that would be great!

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