Pokémon Volcanion

[preserve]

First thing I want to know is where these pokemon stats are coming from since they haven't been officially confirmed yet.

Next is that if these stats and ability are legit, then out of the trio I think this one will be the best one to use. It has a good defensive typing with a few quad resists, good overall stats and good ability. It's offensive typing is good as well. The only problem is it's speed stat combined with it's weakness to stealth rocks makes it difficult to switch into things that it's supposed to potentially wall. I think that heatran, with more quad resistance and neutrality to rocks will outclass volcanian. Also, if this thing can get a recovery move than it would be better.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

First thing I want to know is where these pokemon stats are coming from since they haven't been officially confirmed yet.

Next is that if these stats and ability are legit, then out of the trio I think this one will be the best one to use. It has a good defensive typing with a few quad resists, good overall stats and good ability. It's offensive typing is good as well. The only problem is it's speed stat combined with it's weakness to stealth rocks makes it difficult to switch into things that it's supposed to potentially wall. I think that heatran, with more quad resistance and neutrality to rocks will outclass volcanian. Also, if this thing can get a recovery move than it would be better.

You can get Volcanion using Powersaves. I guess. Mine isn't working.

Regardless, Serebii has the stats already, and I trust him.

 

[ArcanineLion]

First thing I want to know is where these pokemon stats are coming from since they haven't been officially confirmed yet.

Next is that if these stats and ability are legit, then out of the trio I think this one will be the best one to use. It has a good defensive typing with a few quad resists, good overall stats and good ability. It's offensive typing is good as well. The only problem is it's speed stat combined with it's weakness to stealth rocks makes it difficult to switch into things that it's supposed to potentially wall. I think that heatran, with more quad resistance and neutrality to rocks will outclass volcanian. Also, if this thing can get a recovery move than it would be better.

The RAM for XY has been fully dumped & edited by projectpokemon.org, which to my best understanding means that they've pretty much cracked it. That's how we got the info.

Also, here are the moves that Volcanion is know to learn.

 

[WoHenRe]

This is probably really stupid, but could it run a mixed attacking scarf set? With the right nature, it reaches 261, and with a scarf it manages an effective 391 speed (someone may need to check my calculations- they were done quickly in my head). The set might look something like:
Volcanion@choice scarf
128 Att/ 128 SpAtt / 252 Speed
-Flare blitz
-Steam eruption
-Earthquake
-Stone edge

 

[jvl101993]

This is probably really stupid, but could it run a mixed attacking scarf set? With the right nature, it reaches 261, and with a scarf it manages an effective 391 speed (someone may need to check my calculations- they were done quickly in my head). The set might look something like:
Volcanion@choice scarf
128 Att/ 128 SpAtt / 252 Speed
-Flare blitz
-Steam eruption
-Earthquake
-Stone edge

Actually, Base 70 with a positive nature hits 262 Speed with 252 EVs, so that hits 393 with a Scarf. That's not necessarily fast for a Scarf mon, but it's not terrible. I'd probably invest most of that in SpA instead of splitting it 128/128, since Steam Eruption is a good move to spam.

I really like the look of this mon. Steam Eruption is a fantastic attack (Scald is already great, but they buffed its power), and Water is one of the better attacking types since it hits so many types for neutral damage. Its coverage is somewhat lacking on the special side, but it can run the appropriate HP to deal with what it wants to. A bit surprised we're not getting a 100/100/100/100/100/100 event Legendary this gen. But seriously, this thing would have been awesome last gen: great on Rain teams with the ability to spam Steam Eruption, great on other teams to deal with Rain.

 

[Adonzo]

A bit surprised we're not getting a 100/100/100/100/100/100 event Legendary this gen.

Maybe they're trying to make up for having given us 2 (Manaphy and Shaymin) in gen 4.

/offtopic

 

[The Shellder Smuggler]

This is probably really stupid, but could it run a mixed attacking scarf set? With the right nature, it reaches 261, and with a scarf it manages an effective 391 speed (someone may need to check my calculations- they were done quickly in my head). The set might look something like:
Volcanion@choice scarf
128 Att/ 128 SpAtt / 252 Speed
-Flare blitz
-Steam eruption
-Earthquake
-Stone edge

If it has 3 physical moves and 1 special move you normally would split it as 252 Att/4 SpA/252 Speed. 128 split down the middle isn't too good for the stats themselves.

But don't say that set is stupid, it does look like it would have a niche.

 

[Rotosect]

Should we start talking about checks? On paper it seems Lati@s, Mega Venusaur, Rotom-W, Chansey, Suicune (with HP Electric or Toxic) and RestTalk Gyarados (with Earthquake) should be able to handle Volcanion.
Basically anything that doesn't mind burn too much and has some form of recovery can outlast Volcanion as long as it runs Toxic or a ground/electric/rock move. Volcanion's lack of recovery is easily its worst weakness.

 

[Der Richter]

I know its a nieche check, but maybe special Dragonite might be decent, resisting both stabs, don't minding about burn, and retaliating with Thunder/bolt.

 

[InfinitySlayer]

With its defenses, it should run assault vest + mixed attack to great effect.
Volcanion @ Assault Vest
EV's: 252 HP/200 SpD/56 Def
Sassy
-Steam Eruption
-Flare Blitz
-Focus Blast
-Earthquake/Stone Edge

Enhanced special defense because it covers its key resists such as Ice & Fairy.
252+ SpA Rotom-W Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Assault Vest Volcanion: 132-156 (38.3 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

[Rotosect]

Gastrodon seems to be a 100% counter unless Volcanion starts packing HP Grass, and even so:
0+ SpA Life Orb Volcanion Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gastrodon: 364-432 (85.4 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
while Gastrodon can comfortably OHKO with Earth Power after a Strom Drain boost.

Considering rain teams are making a comeback, Volcanion's presence might be enough to make Gastrodon worth using in OU again.

 

[Kadabrium]

This thing walls azumarill

 

[Strykeypoo]

Gastrodon seems to be a 100% counter unless Volcanion starts packing HP Grass, and even so:
0+ SpA Life Orb Volcanion Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gastrodon: 364-432 (85.4 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
while Gastrodon can comfortably OHKO with Earth Power after a Strom Drain boost.

Considering rain teams are making a comeback, Volcanion's presence might be enough to make Gastrodon worth using in OU again.

Why would you run Modest Life Orb with 0 SpA?

Also, everyone seems to be running Choice Specs calcs for this thing, but honestly very few pokemon make efficient use out of Choice Specs, especially those with mediocre speed. As far as offensive sets are concerned, sub + three attacks seems the most likely.

 

[Jaroda]

Volcanion has great SpA, numerous great resistances and immunities for switches, good defenses, and two incredibly strong STAB moves that are hard to switch into, one being spammable. Those are most of the things you need to be a good Specs candidate. Is that is best set? Hard to say right now of course, but the calcs certainly back it up. Currently Assault Vest and Air Balloon also seem like great items to use.

 

[Strykeypoo]

Volcanion has great SpA, numerous great resistances and immunities for switches, good defenses, and two incredibly strong STAB moves that are hard to switch into, one being spammable. Those are most of the things you need to be a good Specs candidate. Is that is best set? Hard to say right now of course, but the calcs certainly back it up. Currently Assault Vest and Air Balloon also seem like great items to use.

Choice Specs users also more importantly need spammable offense coverage that is almost never a liability. The reason Keldeo is the only real Specs user in OU (Sylveon? Politoed?) is not just because Water is a strong offensive typing, but because it's the only special attacker that can lock itself into a move and still beat the blobs and has the speed to beat most non-scarfers. Choice users also usually need to be able to switch in without fearing hazards, which Keldeo happens to resist and Volcanion has a weakness to.

Choice Specs is generally a bad item. If you want to hit hard as a special attacker, you are nearly always better off with life orb.

 

[Jaroda]

Life Orb is worse on slower/bulky threats than a choice item would be. Life Orb benefits pokemon that don't have the best bulk as is and can often avoid damage altogether with their speed. I'm sure you're familiar with CB Entei at this point. Volcanion would play very similarly to it, only you can actually switch Volcanion in to a variety of attacks. Volcanion doesn't have any recovery or priority options and his STABs are largely safe to spam, he doesn't really have have a dire need to switch moves, especially with BP this high, the extra 20% in power is going to start to become apparent.

252+ SpA Life Orb Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 291-346 (72 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 338-398 (83.6 - 98.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Life Orb Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 226-268 (75.8 - 89.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 260-308 (87.2 - 103.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (obviously Stone Edge is better, but CharY can't switch into Specs SE)

252+ SpA Life Orb Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 269-317 (75.1 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 309-364 (86.3 - 101.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Life Orb Volcanion Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 260-307 (71.4 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 300-354 (82.4 - 97.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Life Orb Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 330-390 (88.2 - 104.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 378-446 (101 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Diancie: 242-289 (79.6 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Diancie: 278-330 (91.4 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 189-223 (26.8 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage Yeah, you can even force Chansey out if you burn it.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Overheat vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 241-285 (68.4 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Specs Overheat can safely 2HKO even with Drain Punch damage and you don't worry about giving him a Guts boost.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 408-482 (100.9 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO


I'll stop there, but you can see the difference the power makes. SR weakness means little when Latias makes such a natural partner for this guy with Defog and Wish and Ground immunity/Electric resist.

 

[DaKakz]

Gastrodon seems to be a 100% counter unless Volcanion starts packing HP Grass, and even so:
0+ SpA Life Orb Volcanion Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gastrodon: 364-432 (85.4 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
while Gastrodon can comfortably OHKO with Earth Power after a Strom Drain boost.

Considering rain teams are making a comeback, Volcanion's presence might be enough to make Gastrodon worth using in OU again.

I don't understand your point, how is something that has a chance to be OHKO'd be considered a "100% counter" ? and why is Volcanion using a Life Orb and 0 Spa in your calc ?...
Like Jaroda said, Life Orb is a bad idea on a slow and bulky 'mon you should use Choice Specs instead:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 356-420 (83.5 - 98.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

I would hardly call that a counter.

Yeah and Gastrodon cannot hope to "comfortably OHKO with Earth Power" like you said as it only does to 54-64% damage if it's specially defensive and that's without an Assault Vest (which seems like an amazing item for Volcanion so you should expect it to carry it) not to mention it can also carry an Air Balloon.

Really, I don't think Gastrodon is the best idea to "100% counter" Volcanion carrying HP Grass.

 

[The Shellder Smuggler]

0- SpA Volcanion Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gastrodon: 220-260 (51.6 - 61%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Gastrodon Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 216-254 (76.8 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Oh yeah, what a counter.



Volcanion outspeeds btw.

 

[Strykeypoo]

Life Orb is worse on slower/bulky threats than a choice item would be. Life Orb benefits pokemon that don't have the best bulk as is and can often avoid damage altogether with their speed. I'm sure you're familiar with CB Entei at this point. Volcanion would play very similarly to it, only you can actually switch Volcanion in to a variety of attacks. Volcanion doesn't have any recovery or priority options and his STABs are largely safe to spam, he doesn't really have have a dire need to switch moves, especially with BP this high, the extra 20% in power is going to start to become apparent.

CB Entei is pretty mediocre, and Entei has much better speed and a massive 50% burn chance.

All those calcs you've posted have shown that if this thing gets a free turn to fire off a move then it can do a lot of damage. About half of S/A+ rank OU and about a third of A rank can either cripple or outright kill this thing. Even assuming you get the right switch in, you then have a 50/50 chance of using the right move in a lot of scenarios. Also, largely safe to spam is a stretch, where Chansey only get 3HKO'd 30% of the time, Heatran is immune to half the STAB and opposing Volcanions either quad resist or are immune to the stab. Even Suicune, who 100% can't do shit in return can easily pressure stall Volcanion out of PP.

This happens every single new generation. 'Look at this slow bulky mon, look how it can 2hko everything with a choice ite-WHAT DO YOU MEAN RHYPERIOR IS UU'. I know that's a bad example, but this happens every single time.

 

[The Shellder Smuggler]

CB Entei is pretty mediocre

That gave me Hepatitis.

 

[DrCalder]

This happens every single new generation. 'Look at this slow bulky mon, look how it can 2hko everything with a choice ite-WHAT DO YOU MEAN RHYPERIOR IS UU'. I know that's a bad example, but this happens every single time.

This. Thank you sir, you have pretty well summed it (Except maybe for the shitty example for obvious reasons like typing / Special defense but still).

Sure this thing looks very cool and seems to have a great potential for the reasons stated on the topic. But I'm feeling that Volcanion is way too hyped at the moment. Some tests would be perfect to see what he can do in the current meta.

 

[ethan06]

I don't understand your point, how is something that has a chance to be OHKO'd be considered a "100% counter" ? and why is Volcanion using a Life Orb and 0 Spa in your calc ?...
Like Jaroda said, Life Orb is a bad idea on a slow and bulky 'mon you should use Choice Specs instead:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 356-420 (83.5 - 98.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

I would hardly call that a counter.

Yeah and Gastrodon cannot hope to "comfortably OHKO with Earth Power" like you said as it only does to 54-64% damage if it's specially defensive and that's without an Assault Vest (which seems like an amazing item for Volcanion so you should expect it to carry it) not to mention it can also carry an Air Balloon.

Really, I don't think Gastrodon is the best idea to "100% counter" Volcanion carrying HP Grass.

You're forgetting that using Choice Specs can make predictions a lot more difficult, especially given how spammable a move Steam Eruption will be. If Gastrodon comes in on a Steam Eruption:

+1 4 SpA Gastrodon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 252-296 (73.2 - 86%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

And if you click HP Grass and mispredict, then you're in a bit of trouble with the sheer amount of things in OU that can and will set up on Grass coverage. And even if you don't:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 356-420 (83.5 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Not that this means anything if Gastrodon is switching in - but if Volc comes in on a predicted Scald or something and tries to hit Gastro with Hidden Power, it has to take heavy damage from Earth Power in order to take it out.)

----
Just a note; the Showdown calculator hasn't been updated with the new information, and is still displaying Volcanion's stat spread as 70/109/120/121/110/70. This means that any calcs you put in without changing it will make Volc look much more specially bulky than it actually is (70/110 rumoured spread vs. 80/90 confirmed spread). Don't forget to change the stats over when you're doing calcs! :)

 

[dumbguyfin]

With its defenses, it should run assault vest + mixed attack to great effect.
Volcanion @ Assault Vest
EV's: 252 HP/200 SpD/56 Def
Sassy
-Steam Eruption
-Flare Blitz
-Focus Blast
-Earthquake/Stone Edge

Enhanced special defense because it covers its key resists such as Ice & Fairy.
252+ SpA Rotom-W Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Assault Vest Volcanion: 132-156 (38.3 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I wouldnt run mixed volcanion, it is outclassed by infernape, who has no stealth rock weakness, better speed and physical movepool.
Volcanions should just stick to sub 3 attacks, defensive, life orb, AV and maybe specs

 

[Jaroda]

CB Entei is pretty mediocre, and Entei has much better speed and a massive 50% burn chance.

All those calcs you've posted have shown that if this thing gets a free turn to fire off a move then it can do a lot of damage. About half of S/A+ rank OU and about a third of A rank can either cripple or outright kill this thing. Even assuming you get the right switch in, you then have a 50/50 chance of using the right move in a lot of scenarios. Also, largely safe to spam is a stretch, where Chansey only get 3HKO'd 30% of the time, Heatran is immune to half the STAB and opposing Volcanions either quad resist or are immune to the stab. Even Suicune, who 100% can't do shit in return can easily pressure stall Volcanion out of PP.

This happens every single new generation. 'Look at this slow bulky mon, look how it can 2hko everything with a choice ite-WHAT DO YOU MEAN RHYPERIOR IS UU'. I know that's a bad example, but this happens every single time.

That doesn't support your argument at all suggesting a Life Orb would be better. And how else do you expect to play a bulky menace like Volcanion without slow U-Turns or switching into obvious Fire, Water, Ice and Steel moves? Of course you don't switch Volcanion into Garchomp or Tyranitar, but you don't switch Heatran into those either, nor would you give Heatran a Life Orb. O_o This plead to prediction is a universal component for any pokemons success, but the point is the combination of Specs STAB Overheat and Steam Eruption being so naturally powerful and difficult to switch into that the risk/reward ratio of such a set is greatly in Volcanion's favor. Ironically other Volcanion are pretty much the safest switch and even they fear Stone Edge/Earthquake. So I don't understand the consistency in your arguments. And I'd hardly say Volcanion and Heatran are interchangeable. Many of their weaknesses are different and Volcanion has a much stronger spammable move.

 

[DaKakz]

You're forgetting that using Choice Specs can make predictions a lot more difficult, especially given how spammable a move Steam Eruption will be. If Gastrodon comes in on a Steam Eruption:

+1 4 SpA Gastrodon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 252-296 (73.2 - 86%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

And if you click HP Grass and mispredict, then you're in a bit of trouble with the sheer amount of things in OU that can and will set up on Grass coverage. And even if you don't:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 356-420 (83.5 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

----
Just a note; the Showdown calculator hasn't been updated with the new information, and is still displaying Volcanion's stat spread as 70/109/120/121/110/70. This means that any calcs you put in without changing it will make Volc look much more specially bulky than it actually is (70/110 rumoured spread vs. 80/90 confirmed spread). Don't forget to change the stats over when you're doing calcs! :)

I changed Volcanion's stats on my calcs so don't worry.

Choice Specs or not it doesn't matter as Volcanion is faster and still 2HKOs with HP grass.

So yeah I still wouldn't call something that risks getting 2HKO/OHKO'd (depending on the item) a "100% counter", a counter is something that can switch in on any move/set the 'mon has and Gastrodon can only defeat non-specs/non-Assault Vest/non-Air Balloon Volcanion who went for a water move (not predicting the obvious switch out to Gastrodon) in order to give it a SpA boost and even then, it still has a chance to lose if Volcanion did not take prior damage

So yeah, hardly a counter as Gastro cannot safely switch in and the scenario in which it defeats Volcanion is circumstantial.