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Wailmer (Gen 4, LC Analysis)*

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by macle, Feb 21, 2010.

  1. macle

    macle frog jesus died for your sins
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    since my bro kd24 left I'm taking over his analysis

    [​IMG]
    http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/wailmer

    [Overview]

    <p>Players often make comparisons between Wailmer and Kyogre. While it is true that they are similar because they have the same typing and access to Water Spout, other then that they are different. Wailmer lacks the power to plow through teams like Kyogre can. Wailmer is a good user of Choice Scarf, but other Water-types can make better use of it like Chinchou.</p>

    <p>Wailmer used to be the primary Water-type, since it was the only Little Cup eligible Pokemon to learn Water Spout, but now two other Pokemon can learn it (Squirtle and Remoraid). Wailmer and Remoraid have the same Special Attack while Squirtle's is lower. Wailmer has lower Speed than Remoraid but Wailmer is bulkier.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Water Spout
    move 2: Surf / Hydro Pump
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Hidden Power Electric / Hidden Power Ground / Selfdestruct
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Water Veil
    nature: Modest
    evs: 116 HP / 196 SpA / 196 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p>Wailmer is one of the few Pokemon in Little Cup who has access to Water Spout, which can be the strongest Water-type attack depending on Wailmer's remaining HP. But with Wailmer's mediocre Speed, Water Spout loses a lot of its usefulness, since Wailmer could very well be low on health by the time it uses it. Equipping a Choice Scarf on Wailmer is the easiest solution, allowing it to outspeed every Pokemon in Little Cup who do not have a Choice Scarf or have raised their Speed in some other manner.</p>

    <p>Water Spout can OHKO many of the fragile Pokemon in Little Cup, and will usually be the attack of choice for Wailmer. However, Stealth Rock, priority, and opponents attacking can really eat up a lot of Wailmer's HP. Surf or Hydro Pump is therefore used as the second attack, ensuring that Wailmer will continue to hit hard even after its HP is low. Hydro Pump has plenty of power, but also has an accuracy of 85%. In such a fast paced metagame, accuracy can make all the difference. If you choose Surf, you do lose a lot of power, but you have perfect accuracy; the choice comes down to preference. Ice Beam allows Wailmer to take out Paras (who boasts an immunity to Water-type attacks) but it can also hurt other Grass-types, such as Treecko. In the last slot, Hidden Power Electric can be used to hit Mantyke, who is immune to Water attacks, and other Water-types. Hidden Power Ground can be used to try and KO Croagunk, who also has an immunity to Water Spout, and Chinchou. However, Hidden Power Ground does leave Wailmer helpless against Gligar, who can take that opportunity to set up. Selfdestruct is a great way to finish off a Wailmer counter, especially if Wailmer has taken too much damage and can't effectively use Water Spout any longer. However, if you are going to run Selfdestruct, move the HP EVs into Attack and go with a Hasty nature.</p>

    [Additional Comments]
    <p>Pokemon who are holding a Focus Sash are a major concern for Wailmer as it will not be able to OHKO them with Water Spout, allowing them to hit back and take away some of Wailmer's health. Having Stealth Rock support in conjunction with Wailmer is the best solution to this problem, as Stealth Rock also weakens other Pokemon and puts them into OHKO range. Snover is also a problem for this set since it can switch into all of Wailmer's attacks. Bronzor can handle Snover and set up Stealth Rock. Paras and Croagunk, who are both immune to Water-type attacks, can prove to be very big problems for Wailmer. A Diglett with Earthquake, Aerial Ace, and Sucker Punch can be a great way to trap and eliminate these Pokemon. Wynaut can also trap and eliminate Croagunk. Porygon makes a fantastic partner for Wailmer, as it can Ice Beam or Thunderbolt any Water- or Grass-types who resist Wailmer's STAB attacks.</p>

    [Team Options]

    <p>As mentioned before, Stealth Rock and Diglett are two ways to really open up the playing field for Wailmer. If you can find time to Rain Dance, Wailmer can take advantage of it, as it boosts Wailmer's Water Spout and its other STAB attacks to even higher levels. Rain does heal Paras and Croagunk though, which is why Diglett is so important. A Pokemon with Pursuit, such as Munchlax or Stunky, is also handy against Gastly, who could very well be holding a Choice Scarf and have Thunderbolt. Wynaut can also trap Pokemon like Croagunk who cause Wailmer trouble.</p>

    <p>Wailmer is always going to have trouble with other Water-types, as they usually have enough bulk to withstand Wailmer's attacks. Using a Grass-type, such as Budew or Bulbasaur, is a good way to eliminate any Water-types, and it can also take out Paras with its STAB Sludge Bomb. A Fire-type, such as Houndour, is also very effective in OHKOing Paras or Croagunk (as long as it doesn't have Vacuum Wave), as well as OHKOing all other Grass-types. Houndour also has Pursuit to take out Choice Scarf utilizing Ghost- and Psychic-types.</p>

    [Optional Changes]

    <p>Wailmer only has one viable set and that is the Choice Scarf set. Rest has potential with Wailmer's huge HP and can boost Water Spout back to full power, but relying on Sleep Talk and hoping not to take a hit while sleeping is a big risk. A Choice Specs set can have some merits, but Wailmer is too slow to pull it off well. Wailmer can try to bluff Choice Scarf or Choice Specs by holding Wise Glasses, but once your opponent figures it out, Wailmer is nearly useless. Wailmer can also attempt try to abuse its mediocre speed in a Trick Room team.</p>


    [Counters]

    <p>Croagunk, Wooper, and Paras all have an immunity to Water-type attacks, making them immune to half of the set. Other Choice Scarf Pokemon can really dent Wailmer by taking away its powerful Water Spout and forcing it to use its weaker Water-type attacks. Focus Sash, priority, and resistances are always a big problem for the whale, since it will be locked into one move. Snover resists Wailmer's most powerful attack and can fight back with STAB Grass-type moves. Wynaut can revenge kill Wailmer easily.</p>
  2. sharktamer

    sharktamer

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    Remoraid also learns water spout.

    Wailmer could also function well on a trick room team with choice specs or even mystic water if you were that scared of not being able to switch moves.

    Maybe you want to add wynaut as a possible partner for the scarfed set?
  3. mtr

    mtr

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    Grammar check and stuff in hot pink.

  4. macle

    macle frog jesus died for your sins
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    Little Cup Co-Leader

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    ty for the grammar check mtr <3 and thanks sharktamer for the comments.
  5. sharktamer

    sharktamer

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    No problem.

    You have hydro pump's power listed as 85, even though I'm sure you had it as 80 before the edit.

    I'm not sure if I'm being too nitpicky, or my fussiness is actually appreciated here ;).
  6. Snorlaxe

    Snorlaxe 2 kawaii 4 u
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    [Overview]

    <p>Wailmer makes great use of Choice Scarf with its high Special Attack and Water Spout, which can literally tear unprepared teams apart. Unfortunately, Wailmer's poor Speed stat hurts it [generally you want the Pokemon you're writing about to be referred to as unisex unless it's something like Latias or Blissey] since most Pokemon with Choice Scarf can outpace it. Remoraid can also learn Water Spout and has higher Speed but it can't learn Selfdestruct.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Water Spout
    move 2: Surf / Hydro Pump
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Hidden Power Grass / Earthquake / Selfdestruct
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Water Veil
    nature: Modest
    evs: 116 HP / 196 SpA / 196 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p>Wailmer is the only Pokemon in Little Cup who has access to Water Spout [didn't you just say in the overview that Remoraid also has Water Spout?], which can be the strongest Water-type attack in Little Cup [no comma] depending on Wailmer's HP percentage. But with Wailmer's low Speed, Water Spout loses a lot of its usefulness, since Wailmer could very well be low on health by the time it uses it. Equipping a Choice Scarf to Wailmer is the easiest solution, allowing it [double-subject repetition is a no] to outspeed all Pokemon in Little Cup who do not have a Choice Scarf equipped or have raised their Speed in some other manner.</p>

    <p>Water Spout can OHKO many of the fragile Pokemon in Little Cup, and will usually be the attack of choice for Wailmer. However, Stealth Rock, priority, and opponents' attacks can really eat up a lot of Wailmer's HP. Surf or Hydro Pump is therefore used as the second attack, ensuring that Wailmer will continue to hit hard even after its HP fall low. Hydro Pump has plenty of power, but also has an accuracy of 85%. In such a fast paced metagame, accuracy can make all the difference. If you choose Surf, you do lose a lot of power but have perfect accuracy; the choice really comes down to preference. Ice Beam allows Wailmer to take out Paras (who boasts an immunity to Water-type attacks) but it can also hurt other Grass-types, such as Treecko. In the last slot, Hidden Power Grass can be used to defeat Wooper, who is also immune to Water-type attacks. It can also be used to hit other Water-types who resist Water Spout. [I think it sounds better as two separate sentences] Earthquake can be used to try and KO Croagunk, who also has an immunity to Water Spout. However, Earthquake does leave Wailmer helpless against Gligar who can take that opportunity to set up. Selfdestruct is a great way to finish off a Wailmer counter, especially if Wailmer has gotten too weak and can't abuse Water Spout any longer.</p>

    [Additional Comments]
    <p>Pokemon who are holding a Focus Sash are a major concern for Wailmer as it will not be able to OHKO them with Water Spout, allowing them to hit back and take away some of Wailmer's health. Having Stealth Rock support is the best solution to this problem, as Stealth Rock also weakens other Pokemon and puts them into OHKO range. Paras and Croagunk, who are both immune to Water Spout and Surf, can prove to be very big problems for Wailmer. A Diglett with Earthquake, Aerial Ace, and Sucker Punch can be a great way to trap and eliminate these Pokemon. Wynaut can also trap and eliminate Croagunk [now, I don't play Little Cup, but I'm fairly sure Wynaut isn't allowed?]. Porygon makes a fantastic partner for Wailmer, as it can Ice Beam or Thunderbolt any Water- or Grass-types who resist Wailmer's STAB attacks. </p>

    [Team Options]

    <p>As mentioned before, Stealth Rock and Diglett are two ways to really open up the playing field for Wailmer. If you can find time to Rain Dance, Wailmer can take advantage of it, as it boosts Wailmer's Water Spout and its other STAB attacks to even higher levels. Rain does heal Paras and Croagunk though, which is why Diglett is so important. A Pokemon with Pursuit is also handy against Gastly, who could very well be holding a Choice Scarf and have Thunderbolt.</p>

    <p>Wailmer is always going to have trouble with other Water-types, as they usually have enough bulk to withstand Wailmer's attacks. Using a Grass-type, such as Budew or Bulbasaur, is a good way to eliminate any Water-types, and they can also take out Paras with their STAB Sludge Bomb attacks. A Fire-type, such as Houndour, is also very effective in OHKOing Paras or Croagunk, as well as OHKOing all other Grass-types. Houndour also has Pursuit to take out Choice Scarf utilizing Ghost- and Psychic-types.</p>

    [Optional Changes]

    <p>To be honest, Wailmer only has one viable set and that is the Choice Scarf set. Rest has some potential with Wailmer's huge HP and can bring Water Spout back to full power, but relying on Sleep Talk and hoping not to take a hit while sleeping is a big risk. A Choice Specs set could have some merit, but Wailmer is unfortunately cursed with a horrid Speed stat. Wailmer can try to abuse its slow speed in a Trick Room team.</p>


    [Counters]

    <p>Croagunk, Wooper, and Paras all have an immunity to Water-type attacks, making them immune to half of the set. Other Choice Scarf Pokemon can really dent Wailmer by taking away its powerful Water Spout and forcing it to use its merely decent Water-type attacks. Focus Sash, priority, and resistances are always a big problem for Wailmer, since it will be locked into one move.</p>

    Changes in blue
    Removals in red
    Comments in green and brackets

    Good job macle! :)
  7. little gk

    little gk <Birkal> I will quit everything I do on smogon
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    I feel one or two things need to be added. First, I think a mention of hp electric should be mentioned somewhere since it takes care of mantyke, while still hitting waters that grass hits. You could also mention mantyke as a potential check to the set, since it's immune to Water Spout, Surf, and EQ.

    goddamn
  8. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    IMO HP Ground or Electric is the best for Wailmer. Ground hits Chinchou hard (58.3% - 75%) and sometimes OHKOes Croagunk (85.7% - 104.8%), and HP Electric is the only option that gives you a way to beat Mantyke without exploding. HP Grass is pretty meh, hits chin the same power as ground and other waters slightly harder than a NVE Water Spout.

    Wise Glasses LureWail deserves a set, or at the very least a OC mention. I think that a bulky wailmer is worth testing, and Specs too (though this may be OC at best, still needs better OC than it has).

    Needs some comparisons with other Water Spout users, counters needs more detail and more counters. You repetedly talk about Wailmer's speed as if it is really really bad, it is not. 60 base speed (16 max) is not good, it can't tie with the faster threats, but it works just fine on the scarf set and is perfectly passable otherwise.

    Recommending EQ on a set with Modest and no Atk investment is nonsensical, HP Ground will deal much more damage to almost every foe. And Atk investment is not the best idea, you need it for your important moves.

    Overview needs more information.

    Wynaut is perfectly legal in Little Cup, it is only banned in OU and all other Lv. 100 metagames not named Ubers.
  9. macle

    macle frog jesus died for your sins
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    Little Cup Co-Leader

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    ok can i get another grammar check and possibly some input? <3
  10. Jimbo

    Jimbo take me anywhere
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    learn "it" is really ambiguous, even if you read the previous paragraph. Water Spout > it!

    wailmer!
  11. Flora

    Flora Yep, that tasted purple!
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    Moderator

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    Grammar (open)
    <p>Often, people make a comparison between Wailmer and Kyogre. It's true that they are common, since they have the same typing and access to Water Spout, (comma) but other then that they are different. Wailmer lacks the power to plow through teams like Kyogre can. Wailmer is a good user of Choice Scarf but other Water-types can make better use of it like Chinchou.</p>

    <p>Wailmer used to be the primary Water-type, since it was the only Little Cup eligible Pokemon to learn Water Spout, (comma) but now two other Pokemon can learn it (Squirtle and Remoraid). Wailmer and Remoraid have the same Special Attack while Squirtle's is lower. Wailmer has lower Speed than Remoraid but Wailmer is much (remove) more bulky.</p>

    <p>Wailmer is the (remove) one of the only Pokemon in Little Cup who has access to Water Spout, which can be the strongest Water-type attack in Little Cup (remove) depending on Wailmer's HP percentage. But with Wailmer's mediocre Speed, Water Spout loses a lot of its usefulness, since Wailmer could very well be low on health by the time it uses it. Equipping a Choice Scarf on Wailmer is the easiest solution, allowing it to outspeed every Pokemon in Little Cup who do not have a Choice Scarf or have raised their Speed in some other manner.</p>

    I personally like how "every" sounds in this sentence compared to "all".

    <p>Water Spout can OHKO many of the fragile Pokemon in Little Cup, and will usually be the attack of choice for Wailmer. However, Stealth Rock, priority, and opponent's attacking can really eat up a lot of Wailmer's HP. Surf or Hydro Pump is therefore used as the second attack, ensuring that Wailmer will continue to hit hard even after its HP is low. Hydro Pump has plenty of power, but also has an accuracy of 85%. In such a fast paced metagame, accuracy can make all the difference. If you choose Surf, you do lose a lot of power, (comma) but you have perfect accuracy; the choice comes down to preference. Ice Beam allows Wailmer to take out Paras (who boasts an immunity to Water-type attacks) but it can also hurt other Grass-types, such as Treecko. In the last slot, Hidden Power Electric can be used to hit Mantyke, (comma) who is immune to Water attacks, (comma) and other Water-types. Hidden Power Ground can be used to try and KO Croagunk, who also has an immunity to Water Spout, and Chinchou. However, Hidden Power Ground does leave Wailmer helpless against Gligar, (comma) who can take that opportunity to set up. Selfdestruct is a great way to finish off a Wailmer counter, especially if Wailmer has gotten too weak and can't abuse Water Spout any longer, though if you are going to run it, (comma) move the HP EVs into Attack and go with a Hasty nature.</p>

    <p>Pokemon who are holding a Focus Sash are a major concern for Wailmer as it will not be able to OHKO them with Water Spout, allowing them to hit back and take away some of Wailmer's health. Having Stealth Rock support in conjunction with Wailmer is the best solution to this problem, as Stealth Rock also weakens other Pokemon and puts them into OHKO range. Snover is also a problem for this set since it can switch into all of Wailmer's attacks. Bronzor can handle Snover and set up Stealth Rock. Paras and Croagunk, who are both immune to Water-type attacks, can prove to be very big problems for Wailmer. A Diglett with Earthquake, Aerial Ace, and Sucker Punch can be a great way to trap and eliminate these Pokemon. Wynaut can also trap and eliminate Croagunk. Porygon makes a fantastic partner for Wailmer, as it can Ice Beam or Thunderbolt any Water- or Grass-types who resist Wailmer's STAB attacks. (backspace)</p>

    <p>As mentioned before, Stealth Rock and Diglett are two ways to really open up the playing field for Wailmer. If you can find time to Rain Dance, Wailmer can take advantage of it, as it boosts Wailmer's Water Spout and its other STAB attacks to even higher levels. Rain does heal Paras and Croagunk though, which is why Diglett is so important. A Pokemon with Pursuit is also handy against Gastly, who could very well be holding a Choice Scarf and have Thunderbolt. Wynaut can also trap Pokemon like Croagunk who cause Wailmer trouble.</p>

    <p>Wailmer is always going to have trouble with other Water-types, as they usually have enough bulk to withstand Wailmer's attacks. Using a Grass-type, such as Budew or Bulbasaur, is a good way to eliminate any Water-types, and it can also take out Paras with its STAB Sludge Bomb attacks (remove). A Fire-type, such as Houndour, is also very effective in OHKOing Paras or Croagunk (as long as it doesn't have Vacuum Wave), as well as OHKOing all other Grass-types. Houndour also has Pursuit to take out Choice Scarf utilizing Ghost- and Psychic-types.</p>

    <p>To be honest, (remove) Wailmer only has one viable set and that is the Choice Scarf set. Rest has potential with Wailmer's huge HP and can boost Water Spout back to full power, but relying on Sleep Talk and hoping not to take a hit while sleeping is a big risk. A Choice Specs set can have some merits, but Wailmer is too slow to pull it off well. Wailmer can try to bluff Choice Scarf or Choice Specs by holding Wise Glasses, (comma) but once your opponent figures it out, Wailmer is nearly useless. Wailmer can also attempt to abuse its mediocre speed in a Trick Room team.</p>

    Last change was to avoid repetition.

    <p>Croagunk, Wooper, and Paras all have an immunity to Water-type attacks, making them immune to half the set. Other Choice Scarf Pokemon can really dent Wailmer by taking away its powerful Water Spout and forcing it to use its merely decent Water-type attacks. Focus Sash, priority, and resistances are always a big problem for Wailmer, since the whale will be locked into one move. Snover resists Wailmer's most powerful attack and can fight back with STAB Grass-type moves. Wynaut can revenge kill Wailmer easily.</p>

    I don't think "it" was specific enough.


    Nice job!

    Jimbo, I caught that too. =P

    EDIT: You forgot to delete off a part here at Optional Change's last sentence:

    Wailmer can also attempt try to abuse its mediocre speed in a Trick Room team.

    Or, you can delete attempt instead of try.
  12. macle

    macle frog jesus died for your sins
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    ok thanks flora and jimbo

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