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WallBreaking in the BW2 metagame.

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by StairFall, Nov 25, 2012.

  1. StairFall

    StairFall

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Messages:
    257
    Despite stall falling out of favour in BW and BW2 wall breaking is still an important role in pokemon and the metagame. Even though there aren't as many walls and defensive juggernauts in this metagame and hyper offence has continued to flourish the role of a wall breaker is still prevalent. Offensive teams have a defensive backbone just like any other team, they're simply made up of synergy, not defensive stats. When it comes to offence versus offence smart switching, resistances and immunities are often a substitute for strong tanks or walls. common glue pokemon like ferrothorn that teams can fall back on in case of powerful attacks aimed at their sweepers are prevalent even on some heavy offence teams, wearing down teams with iron barbs, hazards, leech seed and status.

    No matter how fast and strong the metagame is all teams must still have some sort of plan for strong defensive pokemon and defensive backbones in general. In this thread we'll discuss the most effective, prevalent, favourite and simply all around common wall breaking pokemon and tactics.

    Types of wall Breaking:

    Sheer Force:
    No not the ability, though that can certainly be a part of it. Sheer force refers to raw power used to muscle past walls and tanks, sometimes even if they resist you. Often done through either choice band/specs or +2 boosting moves in swords dance or the much lesser seen nasty plot. Pokemon like this often have outrageous attack stats and powerful neutral STABS like fighting and dragon. Being extremely strong however is often merely a good starting point and not a technique in and of itself for dismantling defensive pokemon.

    [​IMG]
    Kyurem-B @ Choice Band
    teravolt
    adamant nature
    252atk/4spatk/252speed
    -outrage
    -fusion bolt
    -earth power
    -dragon claw

    That 170 baseattack stat! Kyurem b is an absolute offensive juggernaut. His STAB is resisted only by steel types allowing him to carry powerful coverage moves like fusion bolt. He also has earth power which while hitting from his smaller (not that 120 is small!) special attack also hits steels on their commonly smaller special defence. dragon claw is to avoid being locked into outrage early mtach when your opponents steel types, the best defensive typing in the game, are still healthy. Kyurem-B absolutely destroys anything that isn't a healthy physically invested steel type.

    Boosting Versus Choice items:

    When trying to give your wall breaker an appropriate amount of strength (NEVER ENOUGH) one should always consider whether to use choice items or boosting moves. The most common boosting move is swords dance because it provides twice the boosting choice band does. Nasty plot is a lesser seen special alternative which suffers from poor abusers and bad distribution. Work up provides a +1 boost to both attacking stats which is good for pokemon that tear down cores by utilizing mixed sets, however there is even less use of this move then there is for nasty plot for much the same reason. Choice items are great for pokemon with strong neutral coverage rather than wide super effective coverage. It provides a boost to only one offensive stat equal to a +1 boost as well as locking your wall breaker into a single move. At first this may seem absolutely inferior to a boosting move but the upside is great in its own right; a free move slot and an instant boost. When picking which to outfit your pokemon with always consider your team composition and what kind of threats you need removed. A Choice band Terrakion is great if Steels stand in the way of your dragons, while a work up booster could help if you need specific pokemon that are quite varied removed.

    Coverage:
    A great way to dismantle walls is to have amazing SE/neutral coverage to hit opposing walls with, forcing your opponent to predict and juggle between their defensive core is extremely effective because it puts you in control. It racks up hazard damage and constant switching stops them from using utility moves. A great example of this is Expert belt Genesect:

    [​IMG]
    Genesect @ expert belt
    download
    naive nature
    52atk/204spatk/252speed
    -u-turn
    -thunderbolt
    -ice beam
    -flamethrower

    Genesect can hit the powerful Ferrocent defensive core for super effective damage, usually at +1 special attack. This forces the opponent to constantly switch between the two, stopping them from getting up hazards and wittling them down with damage plus your own hazards, expert belt let's you both bluff a choice scarf, your most common set and the absence of life orb recoil means there is little consequence for a misprediction.

    Mixed attacking:
    Many walls only invest heavily in one end of the attacking spectrum, no matter how powerful your special attack is it isn't going to get past the likes of the pink blobs for example. Therefore hitting from both sides of the spectrum let's you dismantle cores that rely on a power special and physical wall, like the now seldom seen skarmbliss. powerful neutral attacks that target the uninvested defensive stat can rip apart this and similar cores. Hydregon excels at this.

    [​IMG]
    Hydreigon @ life orb
    levitate
    rash nature
    4atk/252spatk/252speed
    -draco meteor
    -fire blast
    -super power
    -earthquake

    Hydreigon Ohkoes tyranitar and 2hkos heatran and blissey with draco + super power and stealth rocks even though its special attack is much higher than its physical attack. It uses a combination of the three strategies discussed thus far to ensure there are no safe switch ins to it. Dragon STAB plus the three types steel is weak to gives it impossibly strong coverage, it hits both sides of the spectrum to destroy pokemon like Chansey and T-tar and special attacks to lambaste ferrothorn, forretress, and other physically defensive steel types.

    Substitute:
    A personal favourite of mine substitute is an amazing move, almost as amazing as stealth rock. It has both offensive and defensive uses for offensive teams and combats stall and offence alike. Substitute protects against status, defensive pokemon often can't break a sub if you resist them or their attacks are weakened by the weather so you can get free turns to set up or attack. It also protects you from getting revenged should you KO the opponent while behind the sub. Terrakion runs a common SubSD set that both destroys walls and gives it a good chance to sweep.

    [​IMG]
    Terrakion @ salac berry
    jolly nature
    justified
    4hp/252atk/252speed
    -substitute
    -swords dance
    -close combat
    -stone edge

    Terrakion excels at this not just because it has decent natural bulk and a very fast substitute but also because it is immune to sand storm and resists stealth rock, meaning it's hardly worn down by passive damage while substitute protects against direct damage. Opponents are often hard pressed to both simultaneously break terrakion's substitute and be on the receiving end of an attack, especially because he resists u-turn and gets a special defence boost in sand storm to better take volt switch.

    Immunity to passive damage:
    Passive damage is how most walls and stall teams do damage, both with passive abilities and utility moves. Here is a list of forms of passive damage and how to avoid them.

    sand storm - have a rock/ground/steel type
    toxic - have a steel/ posion type
    burn - have a fire type (a pokemon that uses special attacks or has guts is okayish so the attack drop isn't a problem
    spikes - have levitate/ flying typing
    iron barbs/rough skin - use special attacks (Which is the lower defensive stat of common garchomp and ferrothorn.)
    leech seed - have a grass type
    recoil - don't run life orb, if you have a wall breaker only use life orb if it nets you important 1 or 2 KOes over expert belt or lefties even. Life orb recoil is how a defensive core that would otherwise be at your mercy can defeat you with intelligent switches.
    stealth rocks - hits almost everything, try to use a wall breaker that resists it so you don't take large amounts of damage coming in repeatedly.

    A special mention goes to Reuniclus and Sigilyph. With magic guard the have complete immunity to passive damage and the bulk to take advantage of it. Whether its a trick room set that ruins the opponent teams sweepers or a boosting set to make you ridiculously hard to kill both are great at hurting stall. Sigilyph in particular can run flame orb and psycho-shift to utilize a 100% burning move that cancels out leftovers which walls love. Xatu (screw espeon) can bounce back status moves and hazards to turn the utilities of stall pokemon back on them as well.

    Healing moves:
    It may seem strange to utilize healing to beat defensive pokemon but as said before walls and stall teams do almost all of their damage passively, in other words slowly. Having an offensive pokemon with a healing move gives you sustainability making you hard to wear down. Say milotic (Okay milotic is never used in OU but just as an example) is burned and in a sandstorm with lefties. It takes 4 turns to get to 50%, where recover can bring it back to full health. Passive damage might as well be no damage if you can heal it off and they don't have something to KO you from that range. Rest talk has fallen out of style because sleep is much more crippling in gen 5 but a combo of recover+refresh can make you almost untouchable when it comes to passive damage, just make sure you're in good enough shape to take a direct hit once in a while.

    [​IMG]
    Latias @ leftovers
    levitate
    bold nature
    252hp/228def/28speed
    -calm mind
    -recover
    -refresh
    -dragon pulse

    Latias is a monstrous tank that takes a pittance from most opponents. The popularity of Genesect and his monster u-turn and speed has left latias a bit in the dust recently but outside of him (He is a really large glaring weakness though) Latias is definitely a powerful offensive and defensive force. The idea behind this set is that not a lot of teams carry stuff that can outright massacre latias from the special side and its physical defence has been patched up. Recover allows you to heal up any passive damage done, refresh let's you remove status and calm mind rasises your special attack and defence to absurd levels. Your final attack is dragon pulse. Dragon pulse is an amazing stab and will allow you to power past even steel types (Watch out for subCM Rachi!) once you accumulate enough boosts. There is very little steel types can do to you in return so you will be able to boost freely in front of most of them.

    Preventing utility moves:
    Taking hits is only half the job of a defensive core or stall team in general. While being hard to defeat gives them time to wear you down with hazards, toxic, weather or seeds they also have to take turns actually using those moves. preventing them from doing so by either forcing them out or using moves such as taunt, torment or disable is very effective.
    A force out:
    This can often work, however opponents can counter predict what you are going to do and get off their status moves anyway. Say you bring in Genesect against specially defensive forretrees in the rain. Obviously genesect is threatening, however you will probably predict another pokemon to come in and either u-turn/t-bolt/i-beam them. However forretress may stay in because you don't have your plus one and you're in the rain, you obviously came in just to force him out so he might stay in to get up spikes.
    Taunt:
    Taunt is amazing, and it's important to have it on a pokemon that is fairly fast so you get it off before they get their utilities off. Taunt prevents the use of moves that aren't attacking moves. Not only does this keep them from completing their goal but it also means they must switch out.
    Torment and Disable:
    Torment and disable are much lesser seen than taunt but they have their uses, they're best at stopping moves that stack or warrant repeated use. a phazer that's under torment or disable won't be able to repeatedly use dragon tail as opposed to taunt which only stops roar and whirlwind. Otherwise these moves are incredibly niche and you should stick with taunt, these other two are better off used in conjunction with substitute to force switches or buy a free turn of set up.

    Trick:
    Trick is great at rendering walls useless. The main problems are that you only get one shot with it (maybe 2 if they switch in their own choice pokemon to take it.) and that their aren't a lot of viable pokemon to use it. locking a wall into a single move ruins its potential. it also removes their leftovers or possibly eviolite. It's even worse if the pokemon ran protect, you're incapable of scouting attacks without being locked into it for the entire duration of your stay in the battle, which is worthless.

    [​IMG]
    Zoroark @ choice specs
    illusion
    timid nature
    4hp/252spatk/252speed
    -dark pulse
    -focus blast
    -flamethrower
    -trick

    Zoroark is amazing, a favourite of mine. The focus of this Zoroark set is to do two things, 1. massive damage and 2. cripple an opponent's wall mid game with trick. Being locked into a single move is truly crushing for a wall, only having access to one of it's utility moves every switch in. Zoroark has both fighting and fire coverage moves that dismantle steel types. On top of this his STAB is super effective against ghost types who are often paired with steel types. Not only is this important for beating defensive cores but erasing ghost types from the opponents team will allow you to rapid spin if you have a spinner and any rock weak pokemon like dragonite.

    Zoroark is best off tricking mid game, by that point walls will be weak enough that the damage boost provided by specs won't be as valuable as the ability to switch moves. Also take note that as long as you disguise zoroark as a pokemon that is neutral to stealth rocks and hit by spikes and t-spikes (in this meta? lol) then you can almost guarantee a trick because you will appear to be a pokemon that does not get trick to your opponent.


    Switch initiative:
    Switch initiative is gained by using neutral priority switching moves, volt switch, u-turn, and baton pass. Volt-turn is much better and more effective than dry passing though. The ideal behind this is having a pokemon that checks a wall you're up against, they switch out, you use volt-turn and do a bit of damage then get to switch into a check of your own, constantly forcing switches because you know what they've switched into. This is self explanatory. Force out the opponent, deal damage at the same time and keep them from getting up their hazards or status. Watch out for garchomp though, he's immune to volt switch, has rough skin to punish u-turn and an amazing offensive presence, great speed and high natural bulk to force you out in return.

    [​IMG]
    Genesect @ choice scarf
    down load
    naive nature
    52atk/204spatk/252speed
    -u-turn
    -flamethrower
    -thunder bolt
    - ice beam

    Look I know we already had Genesect in this analysis but... Okay He's super amazingly good in this metagame. Genesect can come in, either grab a +1 attack boost for a super powerful u-turn or a +1 special attack boost to be extra threatening with his spectacular coverage and easily force a switch. This causes hazard damage and either decent - possibly significant u-turn damage, massive damage with the correct coverage move or lesser damage if a neutral or resistant pokemon switches in. U-turn is the most important move. You will do damage - often after a switch that causes hazard damage, know which pokemon you are switching in on and can now force out that pokemon as well with another member of your team that threatens whatevers on the other side of the field. It's best to group Genesect and other volt-turn users together so they can continue to pull this manoeuvre off multiple times.

    Trapping:
    Trapping is a strategy that's been rising in OU lately because of Shadow Tag Gothitelle and genesect+dugtrio. Trapping prevents pokemon from leaving the battle often ensuring a kill. Magnezone traps many of the steels, turning skarmory into roast turkey and ferrothorn and forretress are burnt to a crisp. These pokemon are common spikes users as well as freeing up your dragon types to wreak havoc. Wobbuffet can trap offensive and defensive pokemon alike effectively. counter and magic coat destroys choice scarf users and encore turns walls into pathetic set up fodder, though without reliable recovery the damage it takes often limits wobb to one of these roles a match.Dugtrio can trap any pokemon that isn't a flying type or levitater, which doesn't really matter because it's best at defeating pokemon weak to ground type attacks. A focus sash can let it switch in on an attack early game and get off two hits on a pokemon or a hit against a faster scarfer if it comes in after a ko or a slow volt-turn on your team.

    [​IMG]
    Magnezone @ choice specs
    magnet pull
    modest nature
    148hp/252spatk/108speed
    -volt switch
    -thunderbolt
    -hidden power [fire]
    -flash cannon

    Magnezone is an assassin, a big clunky slow robot assassin. His ability prevents steels from switching out (not with volt-turn though don't get any ideas about Gene running around, that's not this sets purpose.) and allows you to destroy them. Specs seem overkill with your fire attack dealing super effective damage and your impressive mostly neutral STAB however unless you're running zone in the sand or sun you need the extra power. Ferrothorn can actually protect+leech seed stall you and possibly kill you when he's chilling in the rain. the extra power is absolutely necessary.

    If you are relaxing in the sun then the monstrous extra power for your hidden power can allow you to trade in the shades for a fashionable scarf, letting you kill not-choice locked scizor before he can u-turn out.

    EXPLOSION!
    Okay you're all going to be very mad that I added this little part but I thought it was a decent little blurb at the very end. "Explosion's got nerfed!" "Steels are more prevalent than ever and ghosts are seeing a resurgence!" "there are no good abusers!" While all this is pretty true you can always elect to run it on a powerful wall breaker as an emergency murder tool. If you're down to 10-20% health with your life orb and the walls on the other side are still rather healthy you can always explode and deal a hefty amount to a wall so a sweeper can come in and finish them off in preparation for a sweep. It works if you desperately need to clear out a pink blob and you have no physical attackers left for instance (I should use Azelf in OU more...) or possibly need a ferrothorn weakened for a sweep attempt but have no fire or fighting moves left. It should never be a primary strategy and is much more viable on suicide leads with normal gem but if you find any pokemon with a free moveslot and decent attack try it out. It also comes with the benefit of getting a sweeper in for free so they don't have to risk a thunder wave or toxic.

    In conclusion:
    Stall and wall breaking is important regardless of the speed and power of the metagame, a team can't rely solely on brute force. Offence must be used intelligently and diversely as well. Discuss your own sets that you've created, favourite strategies, how you cope with common stall breakers if you run stall and the potential for the different types of offensive mons in the metagame.
  2. TheStriker

    TheStriker

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2012
    Messages:
    117
    Wow, this thread hasnt been posted on for like 24 hrs. Okay, we'll I find the best wall breaker RainBreaker Nidoking. It can OHKO standard Jellicent. Blissey also has no hope because of its amazing typing being immune to toxic and thunder wave. Here is the set I use on all my rain teams:

    Nidoking @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sheer Force
    EVs: 128 HP / 252 SAtk / 128 SDef
    Nature: Modest
    - Thunder
    - Ice Beam
    - earth Power
    - Sludge Wave

    This is amazing! Steels = dead , bulky waters also are dead by thunder, sludge wave kills bulky grasses, ice deals with dragons and grounds, no wall is safe around it ferrothorn and blis not switching cause probs
  3. Present

    Present

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2012
    Messages:
    344
    @the striker. Blissey will just beat you with stoss. Other than that, it looks like a fine wall breaker. Oh yeah, use thunder against bulky waters, not earthpower. And ferrothorn could prove just a little problematic too.
  4. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,431
    I think the reason many haven't posted is due to your OP being very jumbled up and sort of dull. Maybe try adding some pizzazz to the OP with pictures, colored titled font, spacing appropriately. If it's appealing to the eye, much more people will take the time to read it. Just look at RMTs for example. No one likes to rate really boring RMTs with no pictures and or very small descriptions or lack of proper layout. The better it looks, the more feedback you'll get.

    Anyways, this thread has a lot of potential for discussion! One thing I must say is some of your wall breaking sets that you posted here are greatly outclassed by other sets. For example, LO Hydreigon is decent, however is lacks the pure power of a Specs Latios or a Choice Banded Kyurem-B, which I honestly can't believe isn't included in the OP. Also, Choice Banded Terrakion should most defintely be included in the OP, because nothing can really take a Close Combat well at all, not even Skarmory.

    Wall breaking is all about extreme power that hits the wall's weak defensive stat, so although a Salac Dance Terrakion has the potential in being a wall breaker, CB Terrakion can wall break right off the bat, and doesn't have to set up.

    Other amazing wall breakers are CB Garchomp, Bulk Up/Orb Conkeldurr, and Technician Breloom. But seriously, you MUST include Choice Banded Kyurem-B in this OP, because he himself can 2HKO even Steel types, and is probably the most powerful Choice Banded user in the game.
  5. TheStriker

    TheStriker

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2012
    Messages:
    117
    Yeah I have been looking up good wallbreakerS and RainMill kills all wals easily with a band.

    Azumarill @ choice Band
    Trait: Huge Power
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
    Nature: Adamant
    - Aqua Jet
    - waterfall
    - superpower
    - Ice punch

    standard, aqua jet revenge kills and waterfall is so deadly in rain Scizor is considered a disgrace but wo/ priority aqua jet is still mostly used unless sun is up superpower is deadly to steels offering easy prediction against experienced player and OHKO t-tar and ice punch rounds up it by hitting gliscor and resist to other moves in the set
  6. Onicon

    Onicon

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2011
    Messages:
    1,051
    Azumarill is stopped by Jellicent. Every Azumarill, any Jellicent.

    The new guy Kyu-B is fairly good in this regard. Compared to Hydreigon it is more specialized in taking down bulky water, thanks to Fusion Bolt and the Ice resistance (Edit: before somebody picks on this: I am referring to its Ice type; all in all KyuB is neutral to Ice). It is both an adequate mixed and a brute force wallbreaker.

    CB is pretty straight forward. Select the appropiate move and watch things die. The only things ever to appear in this tier and not being 2HKOed are physical defensive Forretress and Bronzong, who both don't have active recovery.
    But since its sparse physical movepool is one of the main reasons it is here in the first place it may be wise to dig in its special selection. There is no wall who does not fall within two turns (if there is, please tell me - sounds useful).
  7. Admiral Bobbery

    Admiral Bobbery

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2012
    Messages:
    53
    The obvious wall-breaker of choice:

    [​IMG]

    Latios@Choice Specs
    4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe
    Timid Nature

    • Draco Meteor
    • Surf
    • Hidden Power Fire/Thunderbolt
    • Trick/Psyshock

    You may be wondering why I used his back sprite. Well, it's because that's what your walls will be kissing when Latios is done with you. This guy is dripping with pure, destructive power. His base 130 SpA augmented by Choice Specs is capable of shutting down plenty of walls. Common special walls like Blissey/Chansey/Jellicent can all be stopped by Tricking Choice Specs onto them, or by Psyshock and Thunderbolt respectively. Anything that isn't a Steel Type or a pink blob will be decimated by Specs Draco Meteor, and the Steels are mostly KO'd by Hidden Power Fire. His speed also makes him a decent revenge killer, being able to outspeed things like Terrakion, and Keldeo, meaning he is multi-purposed as well and can function well against Hyper Offensive teams as well. If you opt to use Trick, then you can lead with him against Deoxys-D and lock him into Stealth Rock. Point is, Latios is a monster and is one of the best wall breakers in the game.
  8. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

    Joined:
    May 23, 2012
    Messages:
    799
    [​IMG]

    Keldeo @ Choice Specs Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Hydro Pump
    - Secret Sword
    - Hidden Power [Electric] / Hidden Power [Ghost]
    - Icy Wind / Surf


    This is my favorite wallbreaker, Keldeo. It serves as a wallbreaker and a great offensive Pokémon in general. Keldeo is also my choice of Pokémon most of time, because with Water and Fighting STAB, it can defeat just all things that I would need a Fire-type attacker to defeat. Can't run a Fire-type attack to defeat that Scizor? No problem, Choice Specs-boosted STAB Hydro Pump OHKOes him. Secret Sword always 2HKO Ferrothorn, and if you think that Jellicent is a problem, Hidden Power Electric is there to 2HKO Jellicent versions that don't invest in Special Defense. Icy Wind is mainly there as a filler, but can 2HKO many Dragon-types. By lowering their speed, they can't also Dragon Dance against you, as they will still be slower. It's also good against Latios. Surf can be used if you don't have much problems with Dragons, as Surf can be used instead of Hydro Pump when you don't want to risk the miss, but you still need to attack using a Water-type attack. As a side note, Hidden Power Ghost mantains coverage on Jellicent, but is a nasty surprise against Lati@s and Celebi, although I prefer Hidden Power Electric most of time, as it can bypass Gyarados and Tentacruel, which would give problems to Keldeo, otherwise. Also, HP Electric is stronger than Secret Sword against most bulky Water-types, especially if they are physically defensive. And even with HP Ghost, you can't consistently defeat Lati@s, as they both can outspeed and OHKO Keldeo with Psyshock anyway.

    Keldeo can bypass the pink blobs easily, which is a strong point that it has over other specially-based wallbreakers. It is also almost a staple, as it can function in any teams except those that are sun-based, although on rain teams, it truly wreaks avoc, 2HKOing even things that resist Hydro Pump/Surf. Seriously, Specs Keldeo is very underrated and is a great wallbreaker for teams in general. It's a great pokémon for sandstorm teams with Tyranitar, as Tyranitar takes care of Jellicent, Celebi and Lati@s, while Keldeo provides a Water-type resistance and defeat many things that could give problems to Tyranitar, such as Hippowdon.
  9. StairFall

    StairFall

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Messages:
    257
    Thanks for the tips and compliment! I modified the OP to hopefully be a lot better, it's hard though getting the appropriate spacing. I might combine some of the paragraphs together later.

    Anyway I know choice pokemon are amazing at wallbreaking, I've added Kyube to the OP and might create a separate section between boosting and choice items. I know the sets aren't the best but I was trying to focus on sets that exemplified the sub topics I was talking about and not the absolute best sets for each pokemon. Hopefully that will encourage more discussion as people discuss pros, cons and improvements using the Op sets as a starting point.
  10. G-Von

    G-Von

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    697
    @StairFall
    You are missing Alakazam when it comes to immunity to passive damage. I am happy you acknowledged a personal favorite in mine of Sigilyph.
  11. StairFall

    StairFall

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Messages:
    257
    I had forgotten zam crap! I'll add an addendum rather than include him directly because of his super tiny physical bulk. Alakazam's absolute best set is the sash revenge killer and he has much better things to do than tackle stall, even more so because he actually does risk dying to the small offensive attacks walls and stalls carry. His physical bulk is like 50/45 the opportunity cost to use a heavy offence set isn't worth losing your sash and missing out on being one of the best revenge killers in the tier.

    Sigilyph is amazing and the cosmic power set is very fun to use as long as you have a dark type exterminator.
  12. Milos

    Milos

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2008
    Messages:
    438
    Choice Band Terrakion definitely falls under the category of sheer force. If you predict right you're pretty much guaranteed a kill every time you switch in. Gliscor, one of its best counters, can be 2HKO'd by Stone Edge as well as Skarmory. I'd say defensive Hippowdon is probably the best counter to it, or something like Slowbro/Celebi that invest a lot in Defense.
  13. Organization Member XIV

    Organization Member XIV

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2012
    Messages:
    669
    Choice Specs MODEST Overheat from Chandelure. Even though it's not OU, the raw power is amazing. Utterly destroys everything except the blobs, and promptly burns up your soul (not really, just a reference to the dex entry).
  14. StairFall

    StairFall

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Messages:
    257
    I'll be adding spoiler tags for each section for the best and most innovative sets. Terrakion definitely belongs there I'll agree, even if I don't like CB terra because you can't run his double dance set.

    Anyway Sub CM Jirachi is a pretty cool 'mon that I've experimented with on my rain team. Sub and its awesome typing + bulk makes it pretty hard to take care of with attacks found on defensive pokemon outside of ground moves and calm mind is self explanatory. After two boosts which isn't actually that hard you do actually decent damage with the unSTAB attacks you carry and become even bulkier specially then you are physically.

    Where Jirachi is completely unique is the fact that its moves have a 40% chance to confuse and a 60% chance to paralyse. Assuming you get both affects off on a wall, even if you're doing pitiful damage because they resist both, they have only a 37.5% chance to act at all on that turn. Those kinds of odds combined with your own bulk renders you nearly untouchable. You're immune to sandstorm, resist rocks, can't be poisoned and have actually competent offences. Jirachi breaks down stall through sheer hax, and if it carries its sub over after a wall goes down it can start messing up offensive pokemon the same way.

    [​IMG]
    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    serene grace
    bold nature
    252hp/252def/4spdef
    -thunder
    -water pulse
    -substitute
    -calm mind

    And while on the subject of rain Crawdaunt is a terror down in RU and while there's obviously a reason its in that tier it's always fun to experiment. Here's the Choice band set:

    [​IMG]
    Cawdaunt @ choice band
    adaptability
    adamant nature
    4hp/252atk/252speed
    -crab hammer/waterfall
    -crunch
    -superpower
    -double edge
  15. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
    is a Contributor Alumnus

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    Although Crawdaunt has the potential to tear shit apart, he is so slow and has pitiful defenses that pretty much anything with a super effective or decently powerful neutral STAB attack can revenge kill him. He's great for RU, but OU he's pretty meh. Azumarill is a much better Choice Banded Water type due to it's insane attack stat and access to priority Aqua Jet.
  16. StairFall

    StairFall

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Messages:
    257
    Well like I said he's in the RU tier for a reason. I was mulling over a sub SD set or bulkier stat spread but he's really limited none the less. His frailness ironically means he's threatened offensively by the walls he's trying to break. He does have a type immunity though so some sort of set up is possible against a choiced lati@s or something similar.
  17. FaceFaceFace

    FaceFaceFace

    Joined:
    May 15, 2012
    Messages:
    177
    Perhaps Darmanitan and Victini warrant a spot in there somewhere - they're both incredible wall breakers that become ridiculously powerful under sun. Plus they both have a coverage move that can wreck Heatran, the only Pokemon in OU immune to fire.
  18. StairFall

    StairFall

    Joined:
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    257
    I'll definitely add them when I get the chance, however if you'd like me to I really need an actual set with a spread nature and moveset. Victini's CB set wrecks face but I need a short summary on it before I can go adding things. The point of the thread is to discuss the viability of the stall breakers as a community and add the ones the majority agrees on.
  19. Enguarde

    Enguarde I only play ADV UU
    is a Battle Server Moderator

    Joined:
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    651
    Although its been mentioned, Breloom needs some more attention.

    Similar to Scizor in terms of the whopping 130 attack stat and technician, people know that its mach punches hurt all those that don't resist it. Advantages to Scizor though in terms of wall breaking rather than revenging include Breloom's ability to break through substitutes with bullet seed, run several sets, muscle through steel types and bulky waters and the infamous spore.

    Most of the premier walls in OU are not safe from Breloom, and opponents need to think about shutting this Pokemon down before they can utilise their defensive cores to the maximum.

    [​IMG]

    TECHNICIAN

    Breloom @ Life Orb, Leftovers
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Jolly/Adamant Nature
    - Bullet Seed
    - Mach Punch
    - Swords Dance
    - Spore

    This is the premier wall breaking set for Breloom since it can can do several things such as, shutting down a Pokemon with spore, placing the opponent under pressure to not allow Breloom to set up, and more importantly blast through the opponent's cores. (Added 2 possible items.) (leftovers for longevity, especially in sandstorm, and life orb for wrecking.)

    Notable advantages include that it can also outspend many common and relatively fast defensive Pokemon in OU, such as Jirachi, Heatran, Tyranitar and Tentacruel at an adamant nature and even standard Gliscor at Jolly nature. Then proceed to spore them and either set up or inflict heavy damage. A particularly appealing feature of Breloom opposed to other physical wall breakers is that it can mow down Gliscor with STAB technician bullet seeds and which also prevent Gliscor's substitutes from saving it as they normally do.

    Pokemon which can take Mach punches though such as Forretress, Ferrothorn and Jirachi however will still not appreciate it and, certainly won't want to take it at +2.

    SUB PUNCH

    [​IMG]

    Breloom @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 244 Atk / 252 Spd / 12 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - Substitute
    - Focus Punch
    - Seed Bomb
    - Spore

    Although this set may seem redundant now that Techniloom has been release this set can still be extremely difficult for walls to deal with. Normally Breloom setting up a sub means one of your Pokemon is going to have to take a Focus Punch which is not a nice attack to receive unless you're a flying dragon or name is Latias or Gengar. And those who can take it other than the aforemented Pokemon are more than likely going to be scared out by Seed Bomb. This set also has its advantages against Forretress which can come in on the Technican set after something has been spored and threaten will Gyro Ball should it be running it.

    Checks and Counters

    Although Breloom ha a lot going for it as a wall breaker it is till mercilessly shut down by Latias and Gengar if Breloom can't Spore them and is put on the back foot by potential sub sets. And of course Xatu which is gaining popularity over Espeon in OU can take Breloom all day providing it doesn't carry stone edge. (Which is not worth it in replacement of another move in my opinion)
  20. Admiral Bobbery

    Admiral Bobbery

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    Aug 1, 2012
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    I'm not sure why This set is Technician with Leftovers instead of Poison Heal with Toxic Orb because none of his attacks are boosted by Technician
  21. FaceFaceFace

    FaceFaceFace

    Joined:
    May 15, 2012
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    177
    So I went away and had a little play with Victini. I find expert belt to work better on Victini if your goal is to wall-break. This is especially good if you're playing Victini on a sun team (which you should anyway) to set up a Victreebel/Venusaur sweep. Oh, and I run Adamant on Victini, if someone can point out something that Tini needs to outspeed with Jolly (Jolly Kyu-B? Lol) that would be great.

    Now, while expert belt has its merits, CB Victini also has its perks:

    -Brick Break has a 90% chance to 2HKO 252 HP Heatran after SR damage and leftovers with expert belt. Guaranteed 2HKO with CB.
    -Bolt Strike wit EB cannot OHKO defensive variants, whereas CB can.

    I personally would be able to live with the 10% in exchange for more versatility, but with rain everywhere, guaranteeing a OHKO on any version of Toad is a big plus. Ultimately, it boils down to preference. Expert Belt gives you options, whereas CB allows Victini to double up as a cleaner late game.

    Also, Victini does not like hazards whatsoever. So having a spinner/bouncer is a must. If put on a sun team, you'd also want a dragon (especially Lati@s) check, since they can check n' wreck your chloro sweeper + Victini - Latias' LO Draco Meteor OHKOs after SR damage.

    Wall Breaker Victini
    [​IMG]

    Victini @ Expert Belt/ Choice Band
    Trait: Victory Star
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - V-create
    - Brick Break
    - U-turn
    - Bolt Strike

    *4 SDef for stupid Genesect.
  22. Bossness

    Bossness

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2011
    Messages:
    441
    Use Bolt Strike instead of fusion bolt. It has a chance to OHKO defensive Politoed. NO, it does not require a lax nature. The PS! teambuilder may say that it is illegal but it is, in fact, legal. You can test this in an actual battle.
  23. FaceFaceFace

    FaceFaceFace

    Joined:
    May 15, 2012
    Messages:
    177
    Hot damn I didn't know Bolt Strike is available to Victini. This is great news indeed, since it means EB OHKOs offensive variants.

    Sadly, even with that EB Victini cannot OHKO defensive Toad. It comes terribly close, though. But defensive Toad doesn't do much to Victini anyway, so I suppose that's okay.
  24. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
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    Another good set is:

    [​IMG]

    TECHNICIAN

    Breloom @ Life Orb, Fighting Gem
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - Bullet Seed
    - Mach Punch
    - Focus Punch
    - Spore

    I call it TechniPunch loom, and although it takes significant prediction it works great, and can be quite devastating. Nothing wants to take a LO Focus Punch, heck not even resisted Pokes. This set is pretty simple to pull off, all you have to do is Spore something, predict the switch in, and then boom! Surprise Focus Punch! Works great to catch even Latios by surprise, and may possibly get it to a point where you can OHKO it will Bullet Seed. I love this set, because it can really wear down counters to Breloom who can then be very easily finished off. Low Sweep is a decent option too, however with the right prediction this thing can be very devastating. A Fighting Gem can be used in order to power up Mach Punch, or severely dent something with Focus Punch. Use it wisely though.
  25. FaceFaceFace

    FaceFaceFace

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    You mean Mach Punch? Because Latios is gonna fry yo asse before you can Bullet Seed it.
    Love the sig btw.

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