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Walrein (Analysis)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by complete legitimacy, Feb 4, 2013.

  1. complete legitimacy

    complete legitimacy Honko's Happy Funtime With Men
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    [PIMG]365[/PIMG]
    Walrein
    Credit to Level 51 for getting the skeleton portion through QC.

    [Overview]

    <p>Walrein is a strange Pokemon in RU; in hail, it is an absolute beast that has very few counters, but outside of hail it's pretty mediocre and is outclassed by other bulky Water-types such as Slowking and Lanturn. That being said, it's very easy to set up and maintain hail in RU because it is the only permanent weather available in the tier, and it is a very potent strategy in itself. Walrein is arguably the best Pokemon to make use of hail, as it can stall out a large portion of the tier with minimal support due to its ability, Ice Body. It has excellent physical and special bulk, which enables it to do its job effectively against offensive threats. However, it does sport a few common weaknesses to Rock-, Fighting-, and Grass-type moves; the former is particularly painful because of the omnipresent Stealth Rock. Walrein is perfect for Toxic stalling, but its other uses are limited. However, it's so absurdly effective at this job that it doesn't really need to do anything else.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Stallrein
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Protect
    move 3: Toxic / Roar
    move 4: Blizzard / Super Fang / Surf
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Ice Body
    nature: Calm
    evs: 232 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD / 20 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This is Walrein's best set, and it is very effective. The goal of this set is to stall out foes through Toxic and hail damage by alternating between Substitute and Protect. Walrein suffers no net loss of HP after using Substitute and Protect consecutively, enabling it to watch the opponent's HP bar drain slowly while sitting pretty. As such, Substitute and Protect are non-negotiable and should always be used on Walrein. Toxic and Roar are both good options to start the cycle of Substitute and Protect; Toxic is generally more useful because Walrein has the bulk to inflict Toxic itself, making it less reliant on support, but Roar can be used instead if you have Toxic Spikes support. Of course, Roar is also useful with other entry hazards, but the purpose of this set is to stall out Toxic damage, and using Roar without Toxic Spikes support kind of defeats the purpose of using Walrein in the first place. Relying on Toxic Spikes means that you miss out on Flying-types and Levitate users, but many of those are hit hard by Blizzard, so it's not as big of a deal. Blizzard is not crucial to the success of this set, but it's still useful. It quickens the process of wearing down the foe's health and can be used often because many defensive Pokemon are unable to break Walrein's Substitutes. It's also a quick and easy way to get rid of Pokemon such as Druddigon and Tangrowth that can be difficult to KO through other means. Super Fang and Surf are also viable though; Super Fang quickens the demise of specially defensive Pokemon much more than Blizzard, and it notably gives Walrein a way of significantly damaging Clefable, which is immune to Toxic and hail. Although Surf is more conservative than Blizzard because of its higher PP and can hit Steel-types harder, the lack of power and inability to break through most Steel-types anyway makes it an unappealing choice.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread helps Walrein to take on as many threats as possible. 232 HP EVs ensure that Walrein will always recover the exact amount of HP used to create a Substitute within two turns while providing maximum overall bulk. A Calm nature is used so that Walrein can go toe-to-toe with Moltres, while maximum Defense investment is used to combat foes such as Feraligatr and Cinccino. 20 Speed EVs allow Walrein to outspeed Poliwrath and Lanturn that don't invest in Speed, although the former beats Walrein regardless of which of the two is faster. The remaining 4 EVs are placed in Special Defense because putting them in HP is not optimal, but it could be more useful to put them in Speed to absolutely ensure that you outspeed the aforementioned threats as well as Speed creep other Walrein. Leftovers and Ice Body are the only viable item and ability on this set respectively, as they're the only way that Walrein can recover health as fast as it needs to and stall for a sufficient amount of time. Ice Beam is an option on this set, but its only advantage over Blizzard is extra PP. Brine can work well in conjunction with Super Fang, but Walrein's offense isn't the strongest and using both of these moves greatly detracts from the set's original purpose. Aqua Ring can also work to gain an absurd amount of recovery each turn, but it's hardly necessary and isn't really useful in Toxic stalling opponents. Hidden Power Fire can be used as well, but it's only useful for Escavalier and is overall a poor choice.</p>

    <p>Snover is a mandatory partner for this set, as hail is absolutely necessary for Walrein to be effective. Another good partner is one that can lay Toxic Spikes, which is especially important if you are using Roar. Drapion, Roselia, and Qwilfish are all solid Toxic Spikes users, and their Poison typing allows them to absorb Toxic Spikes on your side of the field, which Walrein absolutely detests. Qwilfish in particular is great if you're using Roar because it can lay both Spikes and Toxic Spikes, although sharing a weakness with Walrein to Electric-type moves is a bit of a turn-off. Walrein isn't a big fan of entry hazards in general, so using it alongside a spinner is a pretty good idea. Luckily, Cryogonal and Kabutops are both solid in hail, and the former especially appreciates the ability to use its STAB Blizzard reliably. Escavalier and Mandibuzz with Knock Off are good partners because they both have Overcoat to shield them from hail damage, and Knock Off can negate Leftovers so that Walrein KOes many of its foes faster. Fighting-types such as Gallade also work well in tandem with Walrein, as Walrein has trouble with Clefable and Steel-types, and Fighting-types can dispose of them quite nicely.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Walrein has very few other options and really shouldn't be used outside of hail or do anything other than Toxic stalling. One move not mentioned above that can help in Walrein's cause for stalling superiority is Encore. Encore with some Speed investment can create some opportunities for Walrein to be able to switch in, Encore a useless move of the opponent's, and set up a Substitute. A Choice Scarf set is pretty solid and is good for KOing threats that expect to be sacrificed to wear down Walrein, but are instead KOed. It still retains a lot of bulk and a decent amount of power. For those who want to be innovative, a bulky Life Orb set is probably not that bad (not that good either, though). Walrein has a solid Special Attack stat but a horrid movepool, and while it has more options on the physical side, it's Attack stat is dreadful. Curse is also pretty bad for this reason. You can use Stockpile on Walrein, but there's really no point to it because the idea of Walrein is to avoid taking damage in the first place. Again, Walrein is hardly versatile, and pretty much its only use other than the main set is using a Choice Scarf.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Walrein is a difficult Pokemon to directly counter, as there are very few Pokemon that it can't defeat through residual damage, but there are a couple. Perhaps the best counter to Walrein is Escavalier, as it is immune to Toxic, doesn't take hail damage with Overcoat, and can hit Walrein hard with its STAB moves while resisting Blizzard. Poliwrath and Clefable are the best defensive Pokemon to counter Walrein. The former takes Blizzards like a champ, can Rest off status, and has Circle Throw to wear Walrein down (although it doesn't break Walrein's Substitute). The latter is immune to Toxic and hail due to Magic Guard, and although it doesn't break Walrein's Substitutes with Seismic Toss, Walrein can't significantly damage it except with Super Fang, which isn't particularly common. Klinklang is a pretty good check to Walrein, as it can set up on Walrein easily and break through its Substitutes with Gear Grind once it has a boost. Lanturn can also deal with Walrein well if it has Heal Bell, but unless it also has Thunderbolt, it will be forced to switch out every time with Volt Switch, and Toxic has more PP than Heal Bell.</p>

    <p>While certain Pokemon are a hard stop to Walrein, generally you'll have to rely on methods that aren't so black and white. Entry hazards, especially Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock, greatly hamper Walrein, and the more you can force it to switch in and out of hazards, the better. Multi-hit moves are a decent way of dealing with Walrein; Cinccino and Rhydon are both common users of them and can deal damage even when a Substitute is up. However, neither of them likes taking Blizzard. Another great way of shutting down Walrein is Taunt, and Drapion and Mandibuzz fare decently well against Walrein if they have the move. Alternately, hitting Walrein with high-powered STAB moves is sure to do a number on it, because while it is bulky, it is far from unbreakable.</p>
  2. scorpdestroyer

    scorpdestroyer is a pious radio
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    What about a SDef set? IMO Walreins typing is better for that since it resists water and ice, and physical attacks are mostly SE (Rock, fighting)

    Maybe try a set of 172 HP / 64 Def (or sAtk) / 252 SDef / 20 Spe. HP EVs are good enough for 404 HP Subs, Spe EVs as you stated. Reverse defenses in your analysis if you want. *Mention Super Fang deals with Clefable who otherwise wall the set but Blizzard is good to finish off weakened shit without restoring to more stall. Mention Fighting-types as good teammates to destroy Clefable. The Htmons arent too bad for this i guess since they can spin stuff. Mention Ferroseed since it stops Cinccino cold and can support Walrein with hazards

    Walrein learns Aqua Ring and Swagger. Maybe in OO since they waste a moveslot. Aqua Ring can cause insane recovery and if your luck is in, Swagger can rule. It also learns Roar and Yawn to force out annoying stuff and make that take hazard damage, but causes 4MSS isn't unless Toxic Spikes is used,
  3. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent come at me winter
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    Escavalier with Overcoat is a counter, as it's immune to hail, immune to Toxic and resistant to Blizzard. Surf and Roar also need to be mentioned.
  4. col49

    col49 what.
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    Hey, quick point, but having used Wallrein a ton out of sake of curiosity, I'd like to see a few things mentioned somewhere. First and fore-mostly, having your own Toxic Spikes are amazing if you can afford them, as many Poison-types that previously made them unviable (Drapion mostly) have dropped notably in usefulness / effectiveness, and with them Wallrein can free up a moveslot for other utilities (I've used Garbodor and Roselia to decent effect for this, both absorb TSpikes as well). That being said, Roar is really cool with this, as it allows Wallrein to pHaze out opposing phazers, allowing it to more effectively stall out opposing teams. To go with this, bumping up Wallrein's Speed is cool if you can afford it to beating out other defensive Pokemon to Toxic and such, as well as being able to Roar before opponents (my preferred benchmark was min Speed Misdreavus, as it elapsed basically the entirety of RU defensive Pokemon, but I would understand if it seemed a tad steep of an investment). Also I wouldn't say it gets walled by Poison-types, as most common Poison-types don't take Blizzard well at all.
  5. Camisado

    Camisado

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    I always thought Surf was the standard over Blizzard.

    I haven't tested the set this gen, but is the extra turn Dive gives helpful?
  6. Oglemi

    Oglemi We broke it. Yes, we were naughty. Completely naughty.
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    No, unless Walrein is behind a Sub it just allows your opponent to switch to a mon that can take the Dive and outspeed/KO Walrein the next turn before it can get up Sub.

    Walrein is already staring down really bad 4 moveslot syndrome as it is anyway so it wouldn't be a good choice regardless in most cases.
  7. Oglemi

    Oglemi We broke it. Yes, we were naughty. Completely naughty.
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    OK

    Slash Super Fang before Surf, the utility of Super Fang cannot be overstated and Surf is p. weak when uninvested.

    Be sure to mention a specially defensive spread in AC; it ultimately doesn't make that much of a difference since nearly all of Walrein's bulk is coming from its HP, but its a defining factor on what you can set a Sub up on.

    Be sure to mention a fast spread in AC too. It ensures you get the jump on some mons that may also be running some Speed like Bouffalant, Aggron, Crawdaunt, and Druddigon to name a few. Sometimes the bulk doesn't really matter once you get the Sub up anyway.

    For Checks and Counters:

    - Cryogonal will put Walrein in an immediate stalemate if the latter isn't running Toxic
    - Entry hazards (all of them) + phazing needs a huge mention here in general, it's what's going to be the deciding factor if Walrein will have enough health to put up a Sub after coming in and also if it'll be able to stay in
    - Lanturn with Heal Bell will give Walrein major headaches and again put it in a stalemate
    - Klinklang with Leftovers and Sub dgaf about Walrein for the most part
    - Munchlax, of all things, and Clefable shit all over Walrein
    - Cinccino smashes through Sub with Rock Blast / Bullet Seed, but will get worn down from hail, LO, and possible Toxic damage, Crustle and Rhydon can do the same with Rock Blast if the going gets tough
    - If all else fails Taunt will put Walrein in quite the pickle

    [qc]1/3[/qc]
  8. Level 51

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    err ok I edited that in
    anyone else wants to do a QC check? ;-;
    in other news, bump because this needs some attention >.>
  9. DittoCrow

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    You can mention Ice Beam in AC, as if the opponent can't break Walrein's defenses, it won't run out of Blizzard PP. Also remove Munchlax from checks and counters.

    [qc]2/3[/qc]
  10. august

    august free the robots
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    make mention of how walrein can also easily run a specially defensive spread... 220 HP / 16 Def / 252 SDef / 20 Spd with a calm nature takes hits better than slowking, and is actually a good nidoqueen switch w/ no sr down, avoiding a 2hko from lo sheer force tbolt

    also you need 220 HP on the stallrein set because it is an optimal leftovers number that allows you to retain 100% of your hp when stalling as opposed to losing a few hp from ice body inconsistencies..

    heal bell uxie is an incredible partner for walrein. it sets up stealth rock and can easily cure walrein of status should you play it too recklessly. drapion obviously sets up toxic spikes too which is invaluable for stallrein as well as countering potentially annoying grass-types like sceptile and lilligant

    i am PROBABLY the only one who thinks this, but i'd like scarf walrein to have a set in the analysis too... ive been using a hail team with scarf walrein as the primary revenge killer and watching people mindlessly sac pokemon that lose to stallrein in order to bludgeon it with offensive threats like sceptile only to be outsped and ohko'd by blizzard is priceless... walrein gets a surprise jump on stuff like the aforementioned sceptile, nidoqueen, moltres, entei, KABUTOPS, durant etc and can hit them all for a good amount of damage. before people say "lol glaceon is better" walrein has dual stabs, far more bulk, the same speed, and the loss in special attack isnt particularly significant as walrein is still OHKOing stuff that it needs to.. just some food for thought

    put ENCORE in other options too, encore can actually be really cool for annoying stuff like slowking and clefable

    edit: yea ernesto is right xD 232 hp it is and yes i was talking about onsite slowking spread
  11. Ernesto

    Ernesto is a motionless pedophile
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    Aren't 232 HP EVs still OK? I mean, you get 419 HP and it isn't divisable by 16, but the numbers are rounded down... So you lose 104 HP (1/4 rounded down) from making a Sub, recover 26 (1/16 rounded down) from lefties and 26 from IB, then you Protect the following turn and recover 26 from lefties and 26 from IB yet again...
    It wouldn't be the same with any other HP number above 419, sure. 420 loses 105 from Subs and recovers 104 from two turns of lefties+IB, same for 421, 422, and 423, and 424 loses 106 from Subs and recovers 104, so max HP would be even worse.
    232 EVs give you more overall bulk rather than putting those 12 EVs on Special Defense—419*217 = 90923, a bit lower than 416*220 = 91520, but the physical defense is lowered from 419*306 = 128214 to 416*306 = 127296. You're lowering your physically defensive walling capabilities for only a slight increase in specially defensive ones. It can still be argued, but I believe 232 / 252 / 4 Bold is better overall to 220 / 252 / 16 Bold.

    Also, SpD Walrein isn't bulkier than SpD Slowking, although you were probably talking about the onsite spread. That said, 232 / 252 Calm Walrein has a chance of avoiding the 2HKO from Queen's LO Thunderbolts even after SR! A very little one at that, but it's still nice (it can be considered a moot point since Nidoqueen is going up in a week).
  12. Level 51

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    o_k will do

    Yeah I'll add these... eventually...

    I'm quite sure that's not how bulk is calculated.
  13. august

    august free the robots
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    That is actually a shortcut to determine what EV spread is bulkier, as the damage calculation involves a product of the HP stat and the Def/SpDef stat
  14. complete legitimacy

    complete legitimacy Honko's Happy Funtime With Men
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    This is written.
  15. Molk

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    o_k you asked me to give this its final check on irc so heres a summary of what we discussed.

    Add Qwilfish as a Toxic Spikes setter in the AC in my opinion, it sets Toxic Spikes and Spikes for Walrein, making its job easier, and spreads thunder wave to make it easier for walrein to get up a sub against faster Pokemon, it also resists the fighting type moves walrein despises, although be sure to mention that using Qwilfish does compound an Electric-type weakness.

    Add august's Choice Scarf set to OO for now, i tried it out and its really effective and has a definite niche over glaceon (i mean wow, its a decently powerful scarfmon with the same speed tier as Glaceon and Emboar with slightly more bulk than 252/0 Druddigon, whats not to like?). If somebody decides to post a seperate set for it this could always be removed via the scms.

    Because of the recent discovery of Choice Scarf Walrein and the possibility of it going onsite as well, all mentions of Stallrein being the only viable walrein set should probably be removed, in my opinion.

    QC Approved 3/3
  16. complete legitimacy

    complete legitimacy Honko's Happy Funtime With Men
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    Thanks Molk, this is ready for GP.
  17. GatoDelFuego

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    REMOVE CHANGE COMMENTS

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    [Overview]

    <p>Walrein is a strange Pokemon in RU; in hail, it is an absolute beast that has very few counters, but outside of hail it's pretty mediocre and is outclassed by other bulky Water-types such as Slowking and Lanturn. That being said, it's very easy to set up and maintain hail in RU because it is the only permanent weather available in the tier, and it is a very potent strategy in itself. Walrein is arguably the best Pokemon to make use of hail, because it can stall out a large portion of the tier with minimal support due to its ability, (AC) Ice Body. It has excellent physical and special bulk, and this which enables it to do its job more effectively against offensive threats. However, it does sport a few common weaknesses to Rock-, Fighting-, and Grass-type moves; the former is particularly painful because of the omnipresent Stealth Rock. It's perfect for Toxic stalling, but is only useful in limited other ways. Despite that, it's absurdly effective at this job that it doesn't really need to do anything else.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Stallrein
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Protect
    move 3: Toxic / Roar
    move 4: Blizzard / Super Fang / Surf
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Ice Body
    nature: Calm
    evs: 232 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD / 20 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This is Walrein's best set, and it is very effective. The goal of this set is to stall out opponents through Toxic and hail damage by alternating between Substitute and Protect. Walrein is able to suffer no net loss of HP after using Substitute and Protect consecutively, and this enables it to watch the opponent's HP bar drain slowly while sitting pretty and losing no HP of its own. As such, Substitute and Protect are pretty non-negotiable and should always be used on Walrein. Toxic and Roar are both good to start the cycle of Substitute and Protect; Toxic is generally more useful because Walrein has the bulk to inflict Toxic by itself, but Roar can also be used if you have Toxic Spikes support. Of course, Roar is also useful with other entry hazards, but the purpose of this set is to stall out Toxic damage, and using Roar without Toxic Spikes support kind of defeats the purpose of using Walrein in the first place. Relying on Toxic Spikes means that you miss out on Flying-types and Levitate users, but many of those are hit hard by Blizzard, so it's not as big of a deal. Blizzard is not the crux of this set, but it's still useful. It quickens the process of wearing down the opponent's health, and can be used often because many defensive Pokemon are unable to break Walrein's Substitutes. It's also a quick and easy way to get rid of Pokemon such as Druddigon and Tangrowth that can be difficult to KO through other means. Super Fang and Surf are also viable though; Super Fang quickens the deaths of specially defensive Pokemon much quicker than Blizzard, and it notably gives Walrein a way of significantly damaging Clefable, which is immune to Toxic and hail. Surf is a bit more conservative than Blizzard because of its higher PP, (RC) and can hit Steel-types harder, although Walrein has difficulty beating most Steel-types regardless of Surf.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread helps Walrein to take on as many threats as possible. 232 HP EVs ensure that Walrein will always recover the exact amount of HP used to create a Substitute, (RC) while providing the maximum overall bulk. A Calm nature is used so that Walrein can go toe-to-toe with Moltres, while maximum Defense investment is used to combat foes such as Feraligatr and Cinccino. 20 Speed EVs allow Walrein to outspeed Poliwrath and Lanturn that don't invest in Speed, although the former beats Walrein regardless of which of the two is faster. The remaining 4 EVs are placed in Special Defense because it's not advised to put in HP, but it may be a good idea to put it in Speed to Speed creep other Walrein. Leftovers and Ice Body are the only viable item and ability respectively on this set, as they're the only way that Walrein can recover health so fast and stall for a sufficient amount of time. Ice Beam is an option on this set, but its only advantage over Blizzard is extra PP. Brine can work well in conjunction with Super Fang, but Walrein isn't the strongest and using both of these moves greatly detracts from the set's original purpose. Aqua Ring can also work to gain an absurd amount of recovery each turn, but it's hardly necessary and isn't really useful in Toxic stalling opponents. Hidden Power Fire can be used as well, but it's only useful for Escavalier and is overall a poor choice.</p>

    <p>Snover is a mandatory partner for this set, as hail is completely necessary for Walrein to be at its most effective. Another good partner is one that can lay Toxic Spikes, and this which is especially important if you are using Roar. Drapion, Roselia, and Qwilfish are all solid Toxic Spikes users, and their Poison typing allows them to absorb Toxic Spikes on your side of the field, which Walrein absolutely detests. Qwilfish in particular is great if you're using Roar because it can lay both Spikes and Toxic Spikes, and can spread paralysis so Walrein can set up a Substitute on faster Pokemon Isn't this a bad thing, as Walrein would want Toxic on most opponents?. Walrein isn't a big fan of entry hazards in general, so using it alongside a spinner is a pretty good idea. Luckily, Cryogonal and Kabutops are both solid in hail and the former especially appreciates the ability to use its STAB Blizzard reliably. Escavalier and Mandibuzz with Knock Off are good partners because they both have Overcoat to shield them from hail damage, and Knock Off can negate Leftovers so that Walrein kills many of its foes faster. Fighting-types such as Gallade also work well in tandem with Walrein, because Walrein has trouble with Clefable and Steel-types and Fighting-types can dispose of them Clefable quite nicely.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Walrein has very few other options and really shouldn't be used outside of hail, or doing anything other than Toxic stalling. However, a Choice Scarf is set is pretty solid, (RC) and is good for KOing threats that expect to be sacrificed to wear down Walrein, but are instead KOed. It still retains a lot of bulk and a decent amount of power. For those who want to be innovative, a bulky Life Orb set is probably not that bad (not that good either, though). Walrein has a solid Special Attack stat but a horrid movepool, and while it has more options on the physical side, it's Attack stat is dreadful. Curse is also pretty bad for this reason. You can use Stockpile on Walrein, but there's really no point to it because the idea of Walrein is to avoid taking damage in the first place. Again, Walrein is hardly versatile and pretty much its only use other than the main set is using a Choice Scarf.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Walrein is a difficult Pokemon to directly counter, as there are very few Pokemon that it can't defeat through residual damage, but However, there are a couple. Perhaps the best counter to Walrein is Escavalier, as it is immune to Toxic, doesn't take hail damage with its ability Overcoat, and can hit Walrein hard with its STAB moves while resisting Blizzard. Poliwrath and Clefable are the best defensive Pokemon to counter Walrein., as The former takes Blizzards like a champ, can Rest off status, and has Circle Throw to wear Walrein down (although it doesn't break Walrein's Substitute). The latter is immune to Toxic and hail due to its ability Magic Guard, and although it doesn't break Walrein's Substitutes with Seismic Toss, Walrein can't significantly damage it except with Super Fang, which isn't particularly common. Klinklang is a pretty good check to Walrein, as it can set up on Walrein easily and break through its Substitutes with Gear Grind once it has a boost. Lanturn can also deal with it Walrein well if it has Heal Bell, but unless it also has Thunderbolt it will be forced to switch out every time with Volt Switch, and Toxic has higher PP than Heal Bell.</p>

    <p>While certain Pokemon are a hard stop to Walrein, generally you'll have to rely on methods that aren't so black and white. Entry hazards, especially Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock, greatly hamper Walrein, and the more you can force it to switch in and your of hazards, (AC) the better. Multi-hit moves are a decent way of dealing with Walrein; Cinccino and Rhydon are both common users of them and can deal damage even when a Substitute is up. However, neither of them like taking Blizzard. Another great way of shutting down Walrein is Taunt, and Drapion and Mandibuzz fare decently well against Walrein if they have the move. Alternately, hitting Walrein with high-powered STAB moves is sure to do a number on it because while it is bulky, it is far from unbreakable.</p>


    Nice work on this!

    [gp]1/2[/gp]
  18. complete legitimacy

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    Thanks Gato, changes implemented.
  19. Jukain

    Jukain fuck macle
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
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    diff (open)

    [Overview]

    <p>Walrein is a strange Pokemon in RU; in hail,(RC) it is an absolute beast that has very few counters, but outside of hail it's pretty mediocre and is outclassed by other bulky Water-types, (AC) such as Slowking and Lanturn. That being said, it's very easy to set up and maintain hail in RU because, (AC) as it is the only permanent weather available in the tier,(RC) and it is a very potent strategy in itself. Walrein is arguably the best Pokemon to make use of hail, because it can stall out a large portion of the tier with minimal support due to its ability, Ice Body. It has excellent physical and special bulk, which enables it to do its job more effectively against offensive threats. However, it does sport a few common weaknesses to Rock-, Fighting-, and Grass-type moves; the former is particularly painful because of the omnipresent Stealth Rock. It's perfect for Toxic stalling, but it is only useful in limiteda few other ways. Despite that,However, Walrein it's so absurdly effective at this job that it doesn't really need to do anything else.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Stallrein
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Protect
    move 3: Toxic / Roar
    move 4: Blizzard / Super Fang / Surf
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Ice Body
    nature: Calm
    evs: 232 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD / 20 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This is Walrein's best set, and it is very effective. The goal of this set is to stall out fopponents through Toxic and hail damage by alternating between Substitute and Protect. Walrein is able to suffer no net loss of HP after using Substitute and Protect consecutively, and this enablesing it to watch the opponent's HP bar drain slowly while sitting pretty. As such, Substitute and Protect are pretty non-negotiable and should always be used on Walrein. Toxic and Roar are both good options to start the cycle of Substitute and Protect; Toxic is generally more useful because Walrein has the bulk to inflict Toxic by, (AC) making it less relfiant on support, but Roar can also be used if you have Toxic Spikes support. Of course, Roar is also useful with other entry hazards, but the purpose of this set is to stall out Toxic damage, and using Roar without Toxic Spikes support kind of defeats the purpose of using Walrein in the first place. Relying on Toxic Spikes means that you miss out on Flying-types and Levitate users, but many of thoese Pokemon are hit hard by Blizzard, so it's not as big of a deal. Blizzard is not the crux of this set, but it's still useful. It quickens the process of wearing down the opponentfoe's health,(RC) and can be used often because many defensive Pokemon are unable to break Walrein's Substitutes. It's also a quick and easy way to get rid of Pokemon such as Druddigon and Tangrowth that, (AC) which can be difficult to KO through other means. Super Fang and Surf are also viable though; Super Fang quickens the deaths of specially defensive Pokemon much quicker than Blizzard, and imost notably givesing Walrein a way of significantly damaging Clefable, which is immune to Toxic and hail. Surf is a bit more conservative than Blizzard because of its higher PP and can hit Steel-types harder, though Walrein has difficulty beating most Steel-types regardless of Surf.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread helps Walrein to take on as many threats as possible. 232 HP EVs ensure that Walrein will always recover the exact amount of HP used to create a Substitute within two turns while providing the maximum overall bulk. A Calm nature is used so that Walrein can go toe-to-toe with Moltres, while maximum Defense investment is used to combat foes such as Feraligatr and Cinccino. 20 Speed EVs allow Walrein to outspeed Poliwrath and Lanturn that don't invest in Speed, although the former beats Walrein regardless of which of the two is faster. The remaining 4 EVs are placed in Special Defense because it's not advised to put in HPputting them in HP is not optimal, but it may be a good idea to put ithem in Speed to Speed creep other Walrein [I thought Speed creep wasn't supposed to be included in analyses ?_?]. Leftovers and Ice Body are the only viable item and ability respectively on this set, as they're the only way that Walrein can recover health aso fast as it needs to and stall for a sufficient amount of time. Ice Beam is an option on this set, but its only advantage over Blizzard is extra PP. Brine can work well in conjunction with Super Fang, but Walrein isn't the strongest attacker, (AC) and using both of these moves greatly detracts from the set's original purpose. Aqua Ring can also work to gain an absurd amount of recovery each turn, but it's hardly necessary and isn't really useful in Toxic stalling opponents. Hidden Power Fire can be used as well, but it's only useful for Escavalier and is overall a poor choice.</p>

    <p>Snover is a mandatory partner for this set, as hail is completely necessary for Walrein to be effective. Another good partner is one that can lay Toxic Spikes, which is especially important if you are using Roar. Drapion, Roselia, and Qwilfish are all solid Toxic Spikes users, and their Poison typing allows them to absorb Toxic Spikes on your side of the field, which Walrein absolutely detests. Qwilfish in particular is great if you're using Roar because it can lay both Spikes and Toxic Spikes, although sharing a weakness with Walrein to Electric-type moves is a bit of a turn-off. Walrein isn't a big fan of entry hazards in general, so using it alongside a spinner is a pretty good idea. Luckily, Cryogonal and Kabutops are both solid in hail and; (semi) the former especially appreciates the ability to use its STAB Blizzard reliably. Escavalier and Mandibuzz with Knock Off are good partners because they both have Overcoat to shield them from hail damage, and Knock Off can negate Leftovers so that Walrein can kills many of its foes faster. Fighting-types, (AC) such as Gallade, (AC) also work well in tandem with Walrein because Walrein has trouble with Clefable and Steel-types, and Fighting-types can dispose of them quite nicely.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Walrein has very few other options and really shouldn't be used outside of hail,(RC) or doing anything other than Toxic stalling. However, a Choice Scarf set is pretty solid and is good for, (AC) KOing threats that expect to be sacrificed to wear down Walrein, but are(RC) and instead KOeding them. It still retains a lot of bulk and a decent amount of power. For those who want to be innovative, a bulky Life Orb set is probably not that bad (not that good either, though). Walrein has a solid Special Attack stat but a horrid movepool, and while it has more options on the physical side, it's Attack stat is dreadful. Curse is also pretty bad for this reason. You can use Stockpile on Walrein, but there's really no point to it because the idea of Walrein is to avoid taking damage in the first place. Again, Walrein is hardly versatile and pretty much its only use other than the main set is using a Choice Scarf.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Walrein is a difficult Pokemon to directly counter, as there are very few Pokemon that it can't defeat through residual damage, but there are a couple. Perhaps the best counter to Walrein is Escavalier, as it is immune to Toxic, doesn't take hail damage with Overcoat, and can hit Walrein hard with its STAB moves while resisting Blizzard. Poliwrath and Clefable are the best defensive Pokemon to counter Walrein. The former takes Blizzards like a champ, can Rest off status, and has Circle Throw to wear Walrein down (although it doesn't break Walrein's Substitute). The latter is immune to Toxic and hail due to Magic Guard, and although it doesn't break Walrein's Substitutes with Seismic Toss, Walrein can't significantly damage it except with Super Fang, which isn't particularly common. Klinklang is a pretty good check to Walrein, as it can set up on Walrein easily and break through its Substitutes with Gear Grind once it has a boost. Lanturn can also deal with Walrein well if it has Heal Bell, but unless it also has Thunderbolt, (AC) it will be forced to switch out every time with Volt Switch, and Toxic has higher PP than Heal Bell.</p>

    <p>While certain Pokemon are a hard stop to Walrein, generally you'll have to rely on methods that aren't so black and white. Entry hazards, especially Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock, greatly hamper Walrein, andso the more you can force it to switch in and out of hazards, the better. Multi-hit moves are a decent way of dealing with Walrein; Cinccino and Rhydon are both common users of them and can deal damage even when a Substitute is up. However, neither of them like taking Blizzard. Another great way of shutting down Walrein is Taunt, and Drapion and Mandibuzz fare decently well against Walrein if they have the move. Alternately, hitting Walrein with high-powered STAB moves is sure to do a number on it because while it is bulky, it is far from unbreakable.</p>

    c/p (open)

    [Overview]

    <p>Walrein is a strange Pokemon in RU; in hail it is an absolute beast that has very few counters, but outside of hail it's pretty mediocre and is outclassed by other bulky Water-types, such as Slowking and Lanturn. That being said, it's very easy to set up and maintain hail in RU, as it is the only permanent weather available in the tier and is a very potent strategy in itself. Walrein is arguably the best Pokemon to make use of hail, as it can stall out a large portion of the tier with minimal support due to its ability, Ice Body. It has excellent physical and special bulk, which enables it to do its job effectively against offensive threats. However, it does sport a few common weaknesses to Rock-, Fighting-, and Grass-type moves; the former is particularly painful because of the omnipresent Stealth Rock. It's perfect for Toxic stalling, but it is only useful in a few other ways. However, Walrein is so absurdly effective at this job that it doesn't really need to do anything else.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Stallrein
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Protect
    move 3: Toxic / Roar
    move 4: Blizzard / Super Fang / Surf
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Ice Body
    nature: Calm
    evs: 232 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD / 20 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This is Walrein's best set, and it is very effective. The goal of this set is to stall out foes through Toxic and hail damage by alternating between Substitute and Protect. Walrein is able to suffer no net loss of HP after using Substitute and Protect consecutively, enabling it to watch the opponent's HP bar drain slowly while sitting pretty. As such, Substitute and Protect are non-negotiable and should always be used on Walrein. Toxic and Roar are both good options to start the cycle of Substitute and Protect; Toxic is generally more useful because Walrein has the bulk to inflict Toxic, making it less reliant on support, but Roar can be used if you have Toxic Spikes support. Of course, Roar is also useful with other entry hazards, but the purpose of this set is to stall out Toxic damage, and using Roar without Toxic Spikes support kind of defeats the purpose of using Walrein in the first place. Relying on Toxic Spikes means that you miss out on Flying-types and Levitate users, but many of these Pokemon are hit hard by Blizzard, so it's not as big of a deal. Blizzard is not the crux of this set, but it's still useful. It quickens the process of wearing down the foe's health and can be used often because many defensive Pokemon are unable to break Walrein's Substitutes. It's also a quick and easy way to get rid of Pokemon such as Druddigon and Tangrowth, which can be difficult to KO through other means. Super Fang and Surf are also viable though; Super Fang quickens the deaths of specially defensive Pokemon much quicker than Blizzard, most notably giving Walrein a way of significantly damaging Clefable, which is immune to Toxic and hail. Surf is a bit more conservative than Blizzard because of its higher PP and can hit Steel-types harder, though Walrein has difficulty beating most Steel-types regardless of Surf.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread helps Walrein to take on as many threats as possible. 232 HP EVs ensure that Walrein will always recover the exact amount of HP used to create a Substitute within two turns while providing maximum overall bulk. A Calm nature is used so that Walrein can go toe-to-toe with Moltres, while maximum Defense investment is used to combat foes such as Feraligatr and Cinccino. 20 Speed EVs allow Walrein to outspeed Poliwrath and Lanturn that don't invest in Speed, although the former beats Walrein regardless of which of the two is faster. The remaining 4 EVs are placed in Special Defense because putting them in HP is not optimal, but it may be a good idea to put them in Speed to Speed creep other Walrein. Leftovers and Ice Body are the only viable item and ability respectively on this set, as they're the only way that Walrein can recover health as fast as it needs to and stall for a sufficient amount of time. Ice Beam is an option on this set, but its only advantage over Blizzard is extra PP. Brine can work well in conjunction with Super Fang, but Walrein isn't the strongest attacker, and using both of these moves greatly detracts from the set's original purpose. Aqua Ring can also work to gain an absurd amount of recovery each turn, but it's hardly necessary and isn't really useful in Toxic stalling opponents. Hidden Power Fire can be used as well, but it's only useful for Escavalier and is overall a poor choice.</p>

    <p>Snover is a mandatory partner for this set, as hail is completely necessary for Walrein to be effective. Another good partner is one that can lay Toxic Spikes, which is especially important if you are using Roar. Drapion, Roselia, and Qwilfish are all solid Toxic Spikes users, and their Poison typing allows them to absorb Toxic Spikes on your side of the field, which Walrein absolutely detests. Qwilfish in particular is great if you're using Roar because it can lay both Spikes and Toxic Spikes, although sharing a weakness with Walrein to Electric-type moves is a bit of a turn-off. Walrein isn't a big fan of entry hazards in general, so using it alongside a spinner is a pretty good idea. Luckily, Cryogonal and Kabutops are both solid in hail; the former especially appreciates the ability to use its STAB Blizzard reliably. Escavalier and Mandibuzz with Knock Off are good partners because they both have Overcoat to shield them from hail damage, and Knock Off can negate Leftovers so that Walrein can kill many of its foes faster. Fighting-types, such as Gallade, also work well in tandem with Walrein because Walrein has trouble with Clefable and Steel-types, and Fighting-types can dispose of them quite nicely.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Walrein has very few other options and really shouldn't be used outside of hail or do anything other than Toxic stalling. However, a Choice Scarf set is pretty solid, KOing threats that expect to be sacrificed to wear down Walrein and instead KOing them. It still retains a lot of bulk and a decent amount of power. For those who want to be innovative, a bulky Life Orb set is not that bad (not that good either, though). Walrein has a solid Special Attack stat but a horrid movepool, and while it has more options on the physical side, its Attack stat is dreadful. Curse is also pretty bad for this reason. You can use Stockpile on Walrein, but there's really no point to it because the idea of Walrein is to avoid taking damage in the first place. Again, Walrein is hardly versatile and pretty much its only use other than the main set is using a Choice Scarf.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Walrein is a difficult Pokemon to directly counter, as there are very few Pokemon that it can't defeat through residual damage, but there are a couple. Perhaps the best counter to Walrein is Escavalier, as it is immune to Toxic, doesn't take hail damage with Overcoat, and can hit Walrein hard with its STAB moves while resisting Blizzard. Poliwrath and Clefable are the best defensive Pokemon to counter Walrein. The former takes Blizzards like a champ, can Rest off status, and has Circle Throw to wear Walrein down (although it doesn't break Walrein's Substitute). The latter is immune to Toxic and hail due to Magic Guard, and although it doesn't break Walrein's Substitutes with Seismic Toss, Walrein can't significantly damage it except with Super Fang, which isn't particularly common. Klinklang is a pretty good check to Walrein, as it can set up on Walrein easily and break through its Substitutes with Gear Grind once it has a boost. Lanturn can also deal with Walrein well if it has Heal Bell, but unless it also has Thunderbolt, it will be forced to switch out every time with Volt Switch, and Toxic has higher PP than Heal Bell.</p>

    <p>While certain Pokemon are a hard stop to Walrein, generally you'll have to rely on methods that aren't so black and white. Entry hazards, especially Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock, greatly hamper Walrein, so the more you can force it to switch in and out of hazards, the better. Multi-hit moves are a decent way of dealing with Walrein; Cinccino and Rhydon are both common users of them and can deal damage even when a Substitute is up. However, neither of them like taking Blizzard. Another great way of shutting down Walrein is Taunt, and Drapion and Mandibuzz fare decently well against Walrein if they have the move. Alternately, hitting Walrein with high-powered STAB moves is sure to do a number on it because while it is bulky, it is far from unbreakable.</p>

    I included a lot of subjective commas, as your sentences seemed to go on forever. Otherwise, great job!
  20. MysticNova

    MysticNova

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    87
    Show Hide

    [Overview]

    <p>Walrein is a strange Pokemon in RU; in hail, it is an absolute beast that has very few counters, but outside of hail,(comma) it's pretty mediocre and is outclassed by other bulky Water-types such as Slowking and Lanturn. That being said, it's very easy to set up and maintain hail in RU because it is the only permanent weather available in the tier, and it is a very potent strategy in itself. Walrein is arguably the best Pokemon to make use of hail, because it can stall out a large portion of the tier with minimal support due to its ability, Ice Body. ItWalrein has excellent physical and special bulk, which enables it to do its job more effectively against offensive threats. However, itWalrein does sport a few common weaknesses to Rock-, Fighting-, and Grass-type moves; the former is particularly painful because of the omnipresent Stealth Rock. It'Walrein is perfect for Toxic stalling, but is only useful in limitedonly a few other ways. Despite this fact, it'Walrein is so absurdly effective at this job that it doesn't really need to do anything else.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Stallrein
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Protect
    move 3: Toxic / Roar
    move 4: Blizzard / Super Fang / Surf
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Ice Body
    nature: Calm
    evs: 232 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD / 20 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This is Walrein's best set, and it is very effective. The goal of this set is to stall out opponents withrough Toxic and hail damage by alternating between Substitute and Protect. Walrein is able to suffers no net loss of HP after using Substitute and Protect consecutively, and this enables it to watch the opponent's HP bar drain slowly while sitting pretty. As such, Substitute and Protect are pretty non-negotiable and should always be used on Walrein. Toxic and Roar are both good to start the cycle of Substitute and Protect; Toxic is generally more useful because Walrein has the bulk to inflict Toxic by itself, but Roar can also be used if you have Toxic Spikes support. Of course, Roar is also useful with other entry hazards, but the purpose of this set is to stall out Toxic damage, and using Roar without Toxic Spikes support kind of defeats the purpose of using Walrein in the first place. Relying on Toxic Spikes means that you miss out on Flying-types and Levitate users, but many of those are hit hard by Blizzard, so it's not as big of a deal. Blizzard is not the crux of this set, but it's still useful. It quickens the process of wearing down the opponent's health, and can be used often,(comma) because many defensive Pokemon are unable to break Walrein's Substitutes. It's also a quick and easy way to get rid of Pokemon,(comma) such as Druddigon and Tangrowth,(comma) that can be difficult to KO through other means. Super Fang and Surf are also viable though; Super Fang quickens the deathsmise of specially defensive Pokemon much quickermore than Blizzard, and it notably gives Walrein a way of significantly damaging Clefable, which is immune to Toxic and hail. Although Surf is a bit more conservative than Blizzard because of its higherwith more PP and can hit Steel-types harder, though Walrein has difficule lack of power and inability to breatingk through most Steel-types regardless of Surfanyway makes it an unappealing choice.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread helps Walrein to take on as many threats as possible. 232 HP EVs ensure that Walrein will always recover the exact amount of HP used to create a Substitute while providing the maximum overall bulk. A Calm nature is used so that Walrein can go toe-to-toe with Moltres, while maximum Defense investment is used to combat foes such as Feraligatr and Cinccino. 20 Speed EVs allow Walrein to outspeed Poliwrath and Lanturn that don't invest in Speed, although the former beats Walrein regardless of which of the two is faster. The remaining 4 EVs are placed into Special Defense because it's not advised to put in HP, but it may be a good ideaable to put ithem in Speed to Speed creep other WalreinHP. Leftovers and Ice Body are the only viable item and ability respectively on this set, as they're the only way that Walrein can recover health so fast and stall for a sufficient amount of time. Ice Beam is an option on this set, but its only advantage over Blizzard is extra PP. Brine can work well in conjunction with Super Fang, but Walrein's offense isn't the strongest and using both of these moves greatly detracts from the set's original purpose. Aqua Ring can also work to gain an absurd amount of recovery each turn, but it's hardly necessary and isn't really useful in Toxic stalling opponents. Hidden Power Fire can be used as well, but it's only useful for Escavalier and is overall a poor choice.</p>

    <p>Snover is a mandatory partner for this set, as hail is compleabsolutely necessary for Walrein to be effective. Another good partner is one that can lay Toxic Spikes, which is especially important if you are using Roar. Drapion, Roselia, and Qwilfish are all solid Toxic Spikes users, and their Poison typing allows them to absorb Toxic Spikes on your side of the field, which Walrein absolutely detests. Qwilfish in particular is great if you're using Roar,(comma) because it can lay both Spikes and Toxic Spikes, although sharing a weakness with Walrein to Electric-type moves is a bit of a turn-off. Walrein isn't a big fan of entry hazards in general, so using it alongside a spinner is a pretty good idea. Luckily, Cryogonal and Kabutops are both solid in hail,(comma) and the former especially appreciates the ability to use its STAB Blizzard reliably. Escavalier and Mandibuzz with Knock Off are good partners because they both have Overcoat to shield them from hail damage, and Knock Off can negate Leftovers so that Walrein killscan KO many of its foes faster. Fighting-types,(comma) such as Gallade,(comma) also work well in tandem with Walrein,(comma) because Walrein has trouble with Clefable and Steel-types, and Fighting-types can dispose of them quite nicely.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Walrein has very few other options and really shouldn't be used outside of hail, or doing anything other than Toxic stalling. However, a Choice Scarf set is pretty solid and is good for KOing threats that expect to be sacrificed to wear down Walrein, but are instead KOed. It still retains a lot of bulk and a decent amount of power. For those who want to be innovative, a bulky Life Orb set is probably not that bad (not that good either, though). Walrein has a solid Special Attack stat but a horrid movepool, and while it has more options on the physical side, it's Attack stat is dreadful. Curse is also pretty bad for this reason. You can use Stockpile on Walrein, but there's really no point to it because the idea of Walrein is to avoid taking damage in the first place. Again, Walrein is hardly versatile,(comma) and pretty much its only use other than the main set is using a Choice Scarf.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Walrein is a difficult Pokemon to directly counter, as there are very few Pokemon that it can't defeat through residual damage, but there are a couple. Perhaps the best counter to Walrein is Escavalier, as it is immune to Toxic, doesn't take hail damage with Overcoat, and can hit Walrein hard with its STAB moves while resisting Blizzard. Poliwrath and Clefable are the best defensive Pokemon to counter Walrein. The former takes Blizzards like a champ, can Rest off status, and has Circle Throw to wear Walrein down (although it doesn't break Walrein's Substitute). The latter is immune to Toxic and hail due to Magic Guard, and although it doesn't break Walrein's Substitutes with Seismic Toss, Walrein can't significantly damage it except with Super Fang, which isn't particularly common. Klinklang is a pretty good check to Walrein, as it can set up on Walrein easily and break through its Substitutes with Gear Grind once it has a boost. Lanturn can also deal with Walrein well if it has Heal Bell, but unless it also has Thunderbolt,(comma) it will be forced to switch out every time with Volt Switch, and Toxic has highermore PP than Heal Bell.</p>

    <p>While certain Pokemon are a hard stop to Walrein, generally you'll have to rely on methods that aren't so black and white. Entry hazards, especially Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock, greatly hamper Walrein, and the more you can force it to switch in and out of hazards, the better. Multi-hit moves are a decent way of dealing with Walrein; Cinccino and Rhydon are both common users of them and can deal damage even when a Substitute is up. However, neither of them likes taking Blizzard. Another great way of shutting down Walrein is Taunt, and Drapion and Mandibuzz fare decently well against Walrein if they have the move. Alternately, hitting Walrein with high-powered STAB moves is sure to do a number on it,(comma) because while it is bulky, it is far from unbreakable.</p>

    [gp]2/2[/gp]

    OK I got sniped, so I only worked on top of pokemon0078 for OO and C&C.
  21. complete legitimacy

    complete legitimacy Honko's Happy Funtime With Men
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,135
    Thanks MysticNova and pokemon0078, I went over both of your changes and basically got to choose which of the two versions I liked better, and either changed some stuff on my own or kept it as is if I didn't like either one.

    This is done.
  22. Oglemi

    Oglemi We broke it. Yes, we were naughty. Completely naughty.
    is a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis an Administratoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    C&C Leader

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