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Water Arceus (analysis)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by firecape, Aug 20, 2010.

  1. firecape

    firecape This is the end...
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    [​IMG]
    http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/arceus

    status: done

    Thanks to Dracoyoshi8 for the awesome overview!

    [Overview]

    <p>From the raging maelstrom rises Water Arceus. As a Water-type, Arceus must compete with the great creator of the seas, Kyogre. While the mighty Arceus may not have Kyogre's sheer power, Arceus does have many glorious qualities. Arceus's ability to move like a raging torrent is its biggest advantage, as it is able to outpace both the space-bending Palkia and the ruler of the air, Rayquaza. With Recover, Arceus can repair any wound inflicted upon its majestic form, unlike Kyogre, who is forced to use Rest to heal. Arceus is also much more devastating as a physical attacker thanks to the great Swords Dance. While Water Arceus and Kyogre may seem like rivals, one should not underestimate their offensive prowess on the same team. With Kyogre's eternal rain on the battlefield, the power of Arceus's own Water-type moves is increased to a terrifying level. Be wary against this form of the omnipotent Arceus or face its divine wrath in the form of a torrential flood that will wash all but the strongest away.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Swords Dance
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: Waterfall
    move 3: Dragon Claw
    move 4: Recover
    item: Splash Plate
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 100 HP / 100 Atk / 100 Def / 100 SpD / 100 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>It may seem odd to use a Swords Dance Water Arceus over something like Kabutops, who has higher Speed and Attack due to Swift Swim and Arceus's EV limit, respectively. However, Arceus is bulkier than other rain sweepers, and has access to Recover, which sets it apart and makes it a force to be reckoned with.</p>

    <p>Swords Dance is the crux of this set as it allows Arceus to raise its Attack to sky-high levels and deal insane damage; after Stealth Rock, Waterfall 2HKOes even Giratina-O! Waterfall is the STAB of choice for this set as it gains "double STAB" in the rain, letting Arceus muscle through even Pokemon who resist Water with its handy 20% flinch rate. Dragon Claw is the ideal move to complement Waterfall in terms of coverage, as it hits Dragon-types that resist Waterfall for super effective damage. Dragon and Water also combine to provide phenomenal type coverage, hitting everything in Ubers for at least neutral damage. A word of caution, a 2x resisted Waterfall in the rain has more power than a neutral Dragon Claw. Therefore, Dragon Claw should only be used against opposing Dragon-types, or when facing a Pokemon with a 4x resistance to Water, such as Ludicolo or Palkia. Against Giratina-O Waterfall is the better course of action, however, as both Dragon Claw and Waterfall fail to OHKO it after a Swords Dance boost, but Waterfall has a nice chance to flinch and still 2HKOes despite the resistance. Garchomp is another Dragon that Arceus is better off using Waterfall against, as a +2 Waterfall in the rain will always OHKO, unlike Dragon Claw. Recover rounds off the set nicely by giving Arceus a way to capitalize on its great bulk. With Recover, Arceus can set up a Swords Dance or two on a wide variety of Pokemon and simply heal off any damage taken before sweeping. A Jolly nature is needed to outspeed the numerous base 90 Speed Pokemon in Ubers, as a max Speed base 90 with a Speed boosting nature outruns a neutral Arceus due to Arceus's EV limit.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Waterfall is generally the best option for reliability, but if more power is absolutely necessary Aqua Tail can be used. However, the difference in power between Aqua Tail and Waterfall is so insignificant that you are better off using Waterfall for its chance to flinch and perfect accuracy. Another possible option for Water Arceus is Substitute. Substitute allows Water Arceus to scout for switch-ins and block status from Pokemon like Blissey. Even with its EV limit, Arceus can still make 101 HP Substitutes, which Blissey will be unable to break with a single Seismic Toss. If you opt to use Substitute, it's best used over Dragon Claw, although Arceus will miss the coverage. You should avoid using Substitute over Recover, however, as Arceus will lose large chunks of HP and relinquish one of its biggest assets - longevity. In a similar vein, Arceus can use Refresh to rid itself of troublesome status, but once again it will miss the coverage provided by Dragon Claw. ExtremeSpeed is also an option to pick off faster weakened Pokemon, but it is rather weak, even after a Swords Dance boost.</p>

    <p>Water Arceus has problems with Pokemon that use Thunder, such as Kyogre, Dialga, Latias, and Palkia. Furthermore, a Choice Specs Thunder coming from 150 Special Attack (which all of the aforementioned Pokemon, bar Latias, have) will always OHKO Water Arceus after Stealth Rock. There are several Pokemon who can help Arceus in this regard, the most prominent being Garchomp. Garchomp can easily switch into a Choice-locked Thunder due to its Ground typing and proceed to use Swords Dance as the opponent is forced to switch. If you want to deal with them directly, Latias can switch into all of the aforementioned Pokemon, bar opposing Latias, and hit them with a powerful Dragon Pulse or Thunder. However, it must watch out for Thunder's pesky 30% paralysis rate. It is worth noting that all of the aforementioned checks can be 2HKOed (or OHKOed) by either Dragon Claw or Waterfall, but it's risky to stay in as they may be holding a Choice Scarf. Groudon can also cause problems with its Drought ability, which weakens Water Arceus's STAB. Groudon isn't always 2HKOed by Waterfall, either. Once again, Latias can make a good check if Groudon lacks Thunder Wave, as it can switch into Earthquake and crush it with a Soul Dew-boosted Grass Knot. Kyogre can also take any attack Groudon can throw at it and drown it with a powerful Surf, while bringing back the rain that Arceus loves. That being said, Kyogre should always be paired with this Arceus due to its ability to summon rain and boost Waterfall's power.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Surf / Judgment
    move 3: Substitute / Ice Beam
    move 4: Recover
    item: Splash Plate
    nature: Timid
    evs: 100 HP / 100 Def / 100 SpA / 100 SpD / 100 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>At first glance, this set may seem inferior to Calm Mind Kyogre due to Kyogre's superior Special Attack; however, upon closer observation, one will find that Calm Mind Water Arceus has several advantages over the giant whale. First and foremost is Arceus's access to Recover, which is largely superior to Kyogre's Rest. Arceus also has more Speed than Kyogre, even with the EV limit, allowing it to always outspeed Rayquaza and set up more easily on base 90 Speed Pokemon.</p>

    <p>The first slot of this set goes to Calm Mind, which allows Arceus to raise its Special Attack and Special Defense to obscene levels, and after a few uses, it is nearly unbreakable on the special side. The second slot depends on whether you want to use a mono-attacker set or a regular Calm Mind set. If one wishes to use mono-attacker Water Arceus, the best option is Surf due to its superior PP. If one does choose Surf, then the third slot should be Substitute, as it allows Arceus to scout for switch-ins and gives it an easier setup on foes like Blissey, who cannot break Arceus's Substitute with a single Seismic Toss. If one chooses to use Judgment for added power, Ice Beam becomes the better choice for the third slot to provide Water Arceus with better coverage. Ice Beam allows Arceus to crush the Dragon-type Pokemon it would normally struggle against, such as Palkia and Rayquaza. Arceus needs two Calm Mind boosts to even 2HKO Rayquaza with Surf because of Rayquaza's Air Lock, which negates rain and the boosts it provides. This fact is what makes considering other ways of beating Rayquaza, in this case Ice Beam, important. However, no matter what, Kyogre is always a required teammate due to its Drizzle boosting the power of Arceus's Judgment or Surf to astounding levels. Recover is recommended in the last slot as it complements Arceus's great bulk, and lets it set up on all but the fiercest special attackers by alternating between Calm Mind and Recover. Finally, Timid should always be used with this set as it allows Arceus to outspeed Pokemon like Rayquaza and Dialga, provided they aren't holding a Choice Scarf.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>As stated before, Calm Mind Water Arceus can be used in two different ways: it can be used as a regular Calm Mind set with Judgment and Ice Beam, or it can be used as a mono-attacker with Surf and Substitute over Judgment and Ice Beam, respectively. If you want a way to deal with Kyogre without having to resort to teammates, Thunder is an option over Ice Beam or Recover, but if placed over the former Arceus will struggle to take down Dragon-type Pokemon, and if used over Recover, Arceus will lose one of its biggest advantages over Calm Mind Kyogre. Spacial Rend is another lesser option, but it's worth mentioning for its ability to 2HKO Palkia at +1 compared to Ice Beam's feeble 3HKO. Lastly, if Arceus is taking the mono-attacker route, Refresh is an option over Substitute, allowing Arceus to rid itself of poison from Toxic Spikes, but Substitute is generally the better option as it can be used to scout switch-ins.</p>

    <p>There is one Pokemon that should always be used alongside Water Arceus: Kyogre. Kyogre provides rain, boosting the power of Arceus's Water-type attacks to sky-high levels and allowing it to smash through even Pokemon who resist Water. However, Kyogre and Water Arceus have the same typing, which means they compound each other's weaknesses to Grass- and Electric-type attacks. Therefore, it is a good idea to pack a teammate who can take attacks of these types, such as Latias. Latias also has the bonus of being able to handle opposing Kyogre, Grass and Electric Arceus, Manaphy, Palkia, and Groudon (if it carries Grass Knot), all of whom pose a major threat to Water Arceus. One can also use a Ground-type, like Garchomp, to switch into Choiced Thunder, which Arceus will often encounter. Since Thunder carries a high chance of paralysis, which cripples Water Arceus, it is worth packing a teammate to help with this. Calm Mind Water Arceus also has trouble with Latias, as it can to Calm Mind alongside Arceus and 2HKO with Thunder at any time. A Pursuit user like Scizor or Metagross can help eliminate Latias, but it is a bad idea to use Tyranitar because it gets rid of rain. If Arceus lacks Substitute or Refresh, Blissey can be a major problem, as she can easily use Toxic against Arceus and proceed to repeatedly heal until Arceus succumbs to poison. A strong physical attacker can help eliminate Blissey; Garchomp in particular gets special mention due to its ability to switch into Thunder. Both mono-attacker and regular Calm Mind Water Arceus enjoy Toxic Spikes support, as with it Arceus can stall out opponents that would otherwise give it trouble; such as Blissey, and Calm Mind Kyogre.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>The options listed above are superior, but there are still a few other possibilities. Firstly, Shadow Claw can be used over Dragon Claw on the Swords Dance set to hit Psychic- and Ghost-type Pokemon harder, but Waterfall ensures nearly all the same KOs, and Dragon Claw is useful for coverage against Dragon-type Pokemon. Another interesting option is a bulky Water set, making use of Arceus's great natural bulk and Recover. However, it would be generally inferior to Kyogre, who may not have access to Recover, but has superior Special Attack. In general, a tank Arceus set is a bad idea due to Species Clause; one needs to use Arceus wisely. There are a near-infinite number of possibilities, but most of them are best left to other Pokemon or Arceus types. It may be tempting to use an Attack- or Special Attack-boosting nature for more power, but it is never a good idea for Water Arceus, as it needs to outspeed base 95 Speed Pokemon and below to reach its full potential.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Water Arceus may be mighty, but both sets are perfectly counterable. Without any Special Defense boosts, Arceus is OHKOed by a Choice Specs-boosted Thunder from a Pokemon with base 150 Special Attack after it takes Stealth Rock damage. Therefore, Choice Specs Kyogre, Dialga, and Mewtwo can easily switch in on Swords Dance or Calm Mind and strike Arceus down with Thunder, but they must be careful of a Ground-type switch-in. Also, Kyogre and Dialga must be aware of Waterfall's 20% chance to flinch, as they will both be 2HKOed by it after a Swords Dance boost and Stealth Rock damage. Groudon can also be a problem for Water Arceus, as it isn't always 2HKOed by Waterfall after Stealth Rock due to its ability, Drought, terminating the rain and summoning sun in its place. The Calm Mind set may be able to 2HKO Groudon, but it still hates the rain being taken away. Groudon can also cripple Arceus with Thunder Wave, or use Roar to nullify its boosts and force it to take damage from entry hazards. Grass and Electric Arceus resist Water Arceus's STAB, and can crush it with their own super effective STABs. If Arceus uses Substitute over a secondary attacking option, it will be completely walled by Pokemon with Water Absorb, like Quagsire. In addition to Pokemon with Water Absorb, Palkia will also be able to crush mono-attacking Arceus thanks to its 4x resistance to Water-type attacks and its access to Thunder. Shaymin-S can also be a problem because an Air Slash followed by Seed Flare will always kill a Water Arceus without any Special Defense boosts, and even if Arceus has a few Special Defense boosts under its belt, Seed Flare has a 64% chance to make it plummet back down.</p>

    <p>For the Calm Mind set in particular, Latias can switch into anything Water Arceus has, Calm Mind alongside it, and strike it with Thunder for a 2HKO, while Arceus's Ice Beam fails to 3HKO a large percentage of the time, assuming they both have an equal number of Calm Minds. Calm Mind Kyogre easily counters Calm Mind Water Arceus, as it can 2HKO Arceus with Surf if they have an equal number of Calm Minds, while Arceus can only muster a 4HKO. If Arceus lacks Substitute or Refresh, Blissey can easily Toxic stall it due to its massive Special Defense and HP. Finally, Toxic Spikes are deadly to this Arceus's efficacy, particularly that of the Calm Mind set.</p>
  2. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    My thoughts:

    1) SD should have EQ/Extremespeed in AC at the very least. At +2, you can OHKO Skymin with Extremespeed if it comes into SR and has taken a bit of prior damage. Similarly, you can curbstomp Dialga with EQ so it doesn't destroy you with Thunder.

    2) No bulky Water sets?? It can pretty much run the same "Tank" sets that Kyogre does with better bulk but less firing power and reliable recovery and an immunity to Trick (Hell you can even run something like Surf/Ice Beam/Thunder/Recover and you've got yourself quite a good utility counter right there).

    3) Groudon should be counter #1 for the SD set, IMO. Shaymin-S should named as a check for both Arceus'.
  3. giggity69

    giggity69

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    I definitely want to see a bulky set like shrangs, and I also think that a general support set like surf, recover, t-wave, roar or something would be good. I think that water's great defensive aspects are what needs to be capitalized on with this arceus because we already have kyogre, palkia, and kingdra for the offensive role (NOT saying that this arceus is outclassed in the least!!) but the uber metagame lacks a strong defensive water type that does not have to rely on rest + sleep talk to stay healthy, so this is a niche that arceus can fill rather easily.
  4. firecape

    firecape This is the end...
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    I will put ES in AC, but I'm kinda iffy on EQ, it won't always OHKO 0/0 Dialga at +2 with, while Waterfall will 2HKO this version. EQ does do better against 252/0, as it 2HKOes while Waterfall will only 3HKO 252/0, but it does have fllinch hax, so I'm not sure. Skymin can't OHKO you with anything it has (even Seed Flare) and you have a very big chance to OHKO it with SR and a +2 Waterfall in the rain. Given, Air Slash + Seed Flare can kill you.

    Well, the general idea is you can only have 1 Arceus set, and Water isn't as good of a walling type as it is in OU due to nearly everything running Thunder. Therefore, Arceus is better at running offensive sets. Thats why Normal "Wallceus" got shut down.

    Shaymin-S is a make-shift check, but I will add it. Groudon has a small chance to be 2HKOed by Waterfall in the sun, but it is one of the better checks.

    Huh? How is a defensive Water-type good in Ubers? Nearly everything runs Thunder and zaps the hell out of this Arceus. Water is a good walling type in other metagames because physical attackers have nearly no way to break through it, but there are few of those in Ubers, and Thunder is an extremely common move. Kyogre works well because even with 0 SpA it can cause massive damage to nearly everything but Latias. Also, why would I waste my 1 Arceus team slot set on a Thunder Wave set Kyogre does a little better? If you have Latias you are probably switching it in 100% of the time you see Kyogre, resulting in a paralyzed Latias, this is not the case with Arceus as it could be a SD set.
  5. giggity69

    giggity69

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    Ok, I guess I will just start fresh and discuss what you have here.

    Though it is silly , it should be mentioned that random ass quagsire walls you if you go for a mono attacker on the SD set. Scarf palkia is also definitely a check, especially if you run sub > D-claw. On the additional comments, you said that "ExtremeSpeed can help with weakened faster". I think everyone understands what you are saying, but finishing that will help a bit with presentation. Wobbs is a great teammate because it can both aid in setting up, as well as eliminate scarfers like palkia and garchomp who may revenge you. Oh, and I do not think that a 10% flinch chance should be mentioned in dealing with counters.

    I think that judgment is far better than surf; after a few CMs PP will not be that much of an issue (And 10 PP turns into what, 15 after pp max?), and the extra bit of power might help a bit. I have not run any calcs but I think that since they both have perfect accuracy with no side effects (IE flinch or burn), then the raise in power, however slight, would be welcome.

    Lastly, I think that rapid spin and t-spikes should be listed in the teammates section (Especially on the CM set) because toxic spikes on your field will cripple you, and getting them on your opponents side can help you beat blissey and wear down switch ins like kyogre and palkia.
  6. Ice-eyes

    Ice-eyes Simper Fi

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    Is Spacial Rend maybe worth a slash on the CM set? You don't hit Ray quite as hard, but you do get to eat Palkia (differentiating from Manaphy, which is immune to Status and gets HydroRest).
  7. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
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  8. alex 67

    alex 67

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    Looks great but you may want to tone down the overview a little.
  9. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon IRC SOPis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner
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    [​IMG]
    neat stuff
  10. firecape

    firecape This is the end...
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    It starts off by saying that it must compete with Kyogre... It really doesn't have that much hype.

    edit: I changed the last sentence.
  11. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    Yeah, this does sound a bit too much, lol. TONE IT DOWN.
  12. alex 67

    alex 67

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    Alright that's better now. Also you may want to mention Electric Arceus and Grass Arceus (if it you lack ice beam of course) as counters or at least checks as they have a good chance to win the calm mind war
  13. firecape

    firecape This is the end...
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    I added these.
  14. bojangles

    bojangles IF YOU TRULY BELIEVE,
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  15. Theorymon

    Theorymon AHHHH REAL GOOMBAS!
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    IMO, a regular Calm Mind set and mono Calm Mind need to be different sets due to different play styles. additonally, mono Calm Mind should have Surf for PP reasons (and the power difference between Surf and Judgment are minimal compared to PP in this case).
  16. firecape

    firecape This is the end...
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    bump, done and ready for GP checks.
  17. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    GP check 1.

    You need to make sure you are consistent regarding pronouns. Arceus is a genderless pokemon; if you refer to Arceus as he you must do so for all Pokemon that are not certainly feminine. Otherwise, you may use it for everything, which is what I recommend for simplicity.
  18. firecape

    firecape This is the end...
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    Made all of your changes, and as for the overview, I didn't write it and forgot to make the gender pronouns match mine, but I always forget to proofread for those at the end anyways. Thanks for the GP check, now who's next :P.
  19. Draco Zephyr

    Draco Zephyr

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    Grammar-Prose Check 2/2:
    additions in bold
    removals in red
    comments in green
    Nice analysis, firecape, you're improving! ;)

    I strongly believe that Arceus's > Arceus'. Only use an apostrophe at the end when signifying possession for a plural noun that ends in -s. I also corrected a few misuses of "you" and changed everything to third-person to make it consistent (you can keep it as second-person if you want, as this is up to the writer, but keep it consistent). Other than that, the majority of my edits were prose-related. Nice job! Withholding stamp until changes are implemented.

    EDIT: Changes made, so:

    [​IMG]
  20. firecape

    firecape This is the end...
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    Applied your changes, thanks! This will be all done once you stamp it :).(can't go on site yet until we figure out what we are going to with them though...) So for now it just sits. I'll edit "done" into the title as soon as I receive the final stamp ;). Now for Normal...

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