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Water Arceus

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Anachronism, Mar 17, 2011.

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  1. Anachronism

    Anachronism

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    [Overview]
    <p>Arceus created Kyogre to rule the seas, but the Zeus of Pokemon is more than capable of using a Splash Plate to work together with the leviathan, utilizing the essential liquid of life to unleash a devastating wave of destruction to end the life that it created eons ago. Unfortunately, Arceus is not the only being capable of unleashing intense maelstroms of H2O. Palkia and Manaphy are perfectly capable of competing with their creator. Furthermore it is clear that Water Arceus made Kyogre in its own image, as Kyogre can perform many of the same roles that Water Arceus can perform. With all of this competition for a team slot, it is necessary for Arceus to utilize its movepool omniscience and godly stat distribution to remind the nonbelievers that Arceus is the true ruler of the ocean.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Swords Dance
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: Waterfall
    move 3: Dragon Claw
    move 4: Brick Break/Recover
    item: Splash Plate
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    nature: Jolly/Adamant

    <p>Water Arceus has an excellent niche in Ubers as a physical attacker, where it only faces true competition from the uncommon Kabutops. The EV spread for this set simply maximizes Speed and Attacking power, eschewing bulk for raw muscle. Just set up a Swords Dance or two and attempt a quick sweep, preferrably aided by rain support to further power up its STAB Waterfalls. Although this Arceus set does not fall directly under the shadow of the other powerful Water-types in the tier, the abundance and diversity of Water resists in Ubers caused by these special-attacking powerhouses does pose some problems for Splash Plate Arceus. However, the combination of Waterfall and Dragon Claw hits the vast majority of pokemon at least neutrally, and even a resisted Waterfall in rain is monstrous. After a Swords Dance, rain-boosted Waterfall will even 2HKO minimum HP Giratina-O and OHKO max HP Arceus and Standard Lugia after Stealth Rock. Waterfall also deals 47% - 55.4% to max HP Dialga, and does 49.7% - 58.8% to specially defensive Ferrothorn. Brick Break will allow Arceus to eliminate Ferrothorn and Dialga even more easily if you don't want to risk such a narrow 2HKO. Dragon Claw gets the nod as it is the only way that this Arceus can deal appreciable damage to Giratina, which is still never 2HKOed by the attack. It also has the added advantage of killing Palkia after a Swords Dance. If you have no fear of Dialga and Ferrothorn, feel free to slot Recover over Brick Break for greater surviveability.</p>

    [Additional Comments]
    <p>There are several good companions for Swords Dance Water Arceus. As was previously mentioned, Kyogre is an extremely helpful if not a necessary ally, as permanent rain ensures that Waterfall will deal as much damage as possible while ensuring that Sun is kept out of play. As evidenced above, rain is necessary for gaining quite a few relevant 1- and 2-hit KOs. A solid answer to Groudon is very much appreciated as well, most notably Gliscor, Skarmory and Lugia, as Groudon is a HUGE problem for the set.</p>

    <p>Spikes support is very useful for this set, wearing down opposing grounded counters such as Giratina and Ferrothorn and keeping Scarfers and Groudon further in check. Forretress and Skarmory are competent Spikers, and can use Giratina and Ferrothorn as an opportunity to lay down multiple layers of Spikes, especially if getting burned isn't too concerning. Skarmory can follow up with Whirlwind phazing while Forretress can Rapid Spin away opposing Spikes and Toxic Spikes against Ferrothorn. Your own Ferrothorn doesn't take on opposing Ferrothorn as well as the other spikers mentioned, but it is an excellent answer to Electric and Grass attacks as well as Kyogre and Zekrom, two potentially serious threats to this set.</p>

    <p>While Arceus can 2HKO any Kyogre with boosted Waterfall, Specs Kyogre can OHKO back with Thunder, so having something like Ferrothorn or Dialga that can absorb Thunders is very useful. Dialga sets up Stealth Rock and takes Grass, Water, and Electric attacks without issue, and is one of the few things that can take a Zekrom Bolt Strike. Chansey is also a great partner for Water Arceus carrying Brick Break, as she is more than capable of taking Thunders and any other special attack aimed at Arceus, subduing everything threatening other than Ferrothorn, Zekrom, and some Shaymin-S variants. Defensive Celebi is also capable of taking on everything on the list of counters, and enjoys the rain support your team should have. All of these Pokemon are capable of coming in on Giratina to absorb pesky Will-o-Wisps as well, although only Dialga is truly threatening to the bulky Ghost</p>

    <p>If you want to deal with Giratina more directly, there is no better answer than Heatran. Heatran unfortunately does not like the rain, but it does Will-o-Wisps, resist Dragon attacks, and can wear Giratina with Taunt and Dragon Pulse. It is also useful as an answer to Ferrothorn and Dialga if necessary.</p>

    <p> In the way of offensive teammates, your main goal is to lure and kill Groudon. Mixed Bulk Up Dialga, Mixed Rayquaza, and Mixed Zekrom are all capable of doing in Groudon by pretending to be physical and then laying down the hurt with a Draco Meteor on Groudon's weak side if it unfortunate enough to be fooled by this ruse. Zekrom also provides the added bonus of luring in Ferrothorn and killing it with a surprise Focus Blast. </p>

    [SET]
    name: Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Judgment
    move 3: Spacial Rend / Ice Beam
    move 4: Fire Blast / Thunder
    item: Splash Plate
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    nature: Timid

    <p>Calm Mind is typically an excellent option for Arceus formes, and Water Arceus is no exception! It is important to recognize, however that this set competes directly with Calm Mind Kyogre and Manaphy. Higher HP, Defense, and Speed are all important distinguishing factors here, which is why it is recommended that either Speed or HP and Defense are maximized. Spacial Rend, Recover, and Fire Blast are also unique assets for Arceus. Judgment serves as a dependable STAB attack while Recover allows Arceus to forgo the inferior Rest, which must be paired with Sleep Talk on Kyogre and is highly dependant upon rain for Manaphy. Spacial Rend is paired with Judgment to hit nearly the entire metagame for at least neutral damage, only missing out on Ferrothorn and the unpopular Shedinja and Empoleon. Fire Blast is a decent option for denting the problematic Ferrothorn, 2HKOing it after a Calm Mind even in rain. Thunder is also a good option to hit opposing Kyogre that may otherwise attempt to race you to 6 Calm Minds, although this is typically of secondary concern when compaired to killing Ferrothorn dependably. Ice Beam is a decent option for hitting opposing Dragons and Grass-types if you do not like Spacial Rend and/or are using Thunder.

    [Additional Comments]
    <p>If better coverage is more important than a healing move one can replace Recover with any of the attacks mentioned above, As was previously mentioned, an EV spread of 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD Bold is also viable on this set if you wish to go a more defensive route.</p>

    <p>Once again, Kyogre support is very much appreciated. Although this set can function perfectly fine without it, it is preferred that a team with Water Arceus has a way to remove the sun's harmful rays. A choiced set is best since you don't want your Kyogre to take Arceus' job on the team by using Calm Mind.</p>

    <p> Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Forretress are excellent partners with Splash Plate Arceus. All of them can provide Spikes support and can set up on the potentially problematic Blissey or Chansey. Skarmory and Forretress are excellent answers to opposing Ferrothorn, Whirlwinding it out to rack up damage or simply nullifying any attempts to Spike with Taunt or Rapid Spin, respectively. While Ferrothorn doesn't answer opposing Ferrothorn all that well, it is the premier Zekrom counter and checks opposing Calm Mind Kyogre admirably. Blissey and Chansey can be useful for soaking up status and powerful special attacks like Thunder or Grass Knot that have the potential to break through your Water Arceus' boosts. Specially defensive Dialga is a great teammate as well, as it can come in on Electric and Grass attacks, Blissey, Chansey, Ferrothorn, or Grass Arceus and set up Stealth Rock or accumulate Bulk Ups. Heatran, while not synergistic with rain, can do essentially the same thing as Dialga (minus the Bulk Upping) but can also switch into Giratina without getting burned and force out opposing Bulk Up Dialga. Celebi is not a common sight in Ubers, but it does an excellent job of walling special Electric and Grass attacks and has Perish Song for forcing out troublesome Calm Minders attempting to race Water Arceus. It can also act as a Groudon check in a pinch if you have enough Speed and Defense investment.</p>



    [OTHER OPTIONS]
    <p>Extremespeed is useful on the Swords Dance set to pick off faster threats that have been weakened. Will-O-Wisp is an excellent option for any set that is defensively EVed, as Water Arceus can easily scare out Fire-types immune to it with STAB Water attacks, and Arceus also enjoys crippling physical attackers such as Ferrothorn and Zekrom. Refresh is an option on the Calm Mind set if Blissey and Chansey are problematic, but using Refresh means losing a coverage move, which is Arceus' greatest advantage over Kyogre and Manaphy.

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>The first step in countering Water Arceus is to bring out the sun. Not only does defensive Groudon make a decent check to physical Water Arceus variants with Dragon Tail, but the Sun it brings out is absolutely devastating to Arceus' STAB attack, removing the Rain boost and replacing it with a global Water resistance. Recognize, however, that this will empower Fire Blasting sets. Toxic Spikes can be useful for combating Water Arceus, but make sure that it is not a Calm Mind variant, as they can utilize your layer of Toxic Spikes to ensure that they can't be hit with Toxic poison</p>

    <p>Ferrothorn, Dialga, and the Giratina formes are your best bet against the Swords Dance set, just watch out for Brick Break or Dragon Claw. Even with these two coverage moves, Ferrothorn and Giratina will be able to survive easily and fire back a Power Whip or Dragon Tail/Will-o-Wisp respectively. Defensive Grass Arceus also counters this set soundly, as it resists Waterfall and has good enough stats to take anything else. In return, it can cripple Water Arceus with Thunder Wave, or just smack it with a Judgment or Grass Knot for a near-OHKO. Shaymin-S outspeeds Arceus and can it it with a brutal Seed Flare or Air Slash barrage. In the way of checks, Choice Scarf Zekrom, Dialga, Palkia, or Kyogre resist Waterfall and possess solid enough defensive stats to weather any unboosted attack, firing back with a powerful super-effective Bolt Strike or Thunder. If you have already gotten Sun up, then any opposing Arceus set with Will-o-Wisp can render this set useless as well. If Stealth Rock and Spikes can be managed, Shedinja makes a fine check to any Arceus lacking a status move or Fire Blast.</p>

    <p>Calm Mind variants of Arceus are another animal, as the coverage and support moves available to it can make countering it tricky. Sets without Will-o-Wisp or Flamethrower are easy targets for Ferrothorn, as it resists anything else that can be thrown at it and 2HKOs with Power Whip after Leech Seeding. Water Arceus lacking Refresh or Recover is easily picked off by the combination of Seismic Toss and Toxic from Blissey or Chansey. Calm Mind Roar Steel Arceus can set up alongside this Arceus and then phaze it out, although it will not enjoy taking Rain-boosted +1 Judgments initially.Giratina and Grass Arceus can keep this set from accumulating boosts by phazing it with Dragon Tail and Roar respectively while shrugging off anything except for a boosted Ice Beam, which still doesn't hit all that hard. Support Dialga sets can perform similarly, although it cannot win one on one.</p>
  2. barry4ever

    barry4ever
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    Change the thread name to Water Arceus.(my suggestions are on the assumption that this is for waterceus)

    SD set with Waterfall, SD, Recover and EQ is fine. With rain support this thing rocks(until lil' pony comes anyway) A CM set could work with Judgment/ Surf, CM, Recover, (filler move) but Kyogre is probably better in every aspect of this other than Speed so I'm on the fence about this one.
  3. Misa

    Misa

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    Try and test these:
    Ive tested both the Swords Dance set and the Calm Mind set and they worked out just fine. Swords Dance set could use Dragon Claw as the main secondary move in order to hit things like Rayquaza and Palkia (who laugh at the SD set otherwise).

    Also the Calm Mind set has a couple advantages over Kyogre as Arceus is faster and has access to Recover (as well as boasting more Physical Defense.)
  4. Anachronism

    Anachronism

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    I was going to test CM/Judgment/Recover/Refresh with maxish def.
  5. Misa

    Misa

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    Doesn't quite a few things in Ubers resist Water though? Im not sure if a Mono-water set deserves a test (especially if you are setup-bait for a lot of stuff).
  6. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
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    Even with considerably worse off stats, Manaphy pulls this off about 10x more efficiently.
  7. JabbaTheGriffin

    JabbaTheGriffin Stormblessed
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    ugh i was referred here so i guess i have to post

    i've been using waterceus for a while since it's one of the "uncounterable" arcei

    the sd set should be sd/waterfall/espeed as the first 3 moves. the last slot should be either brick break if your team has trouble with nattorei or recover if you don't. dclaw should also be relegated to last slot potential but i'd rather slap that in other options or something
  8. Misa

    Misa

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    Extremspeed doesnt generate enough power even without a swords dance to justify its use though. Personally, I would replace Extremespeed with brick Break and make the recover the 4th move or something.

    or you know, use Dragon Claw as the 4th slot otherwise Ray and a bunch of other dragons wall it.
  9. Anachronism

    Anachronism

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    I have enjoyed playing with the calm mind set, however I have found refresh to be less useful than I would have at first imagined. I will instead test some other attacks in that slot. I like the idea of Flamethrower or WOW to hose Ferrothorn, so I will probably test those first. I also like WOW because WOW + Water attacks to hit fire types is a cool combination.

    @Jabba: thanks for your post man. These are excellent suggestions that will be noted in testing the SD set.

    @Misa: It doesn't seem to bother Kyogre much that there are a lot of water resists, and Kyogre doesn't have nearly the coverage options that Arceus does. This is part of the reason I have backed off of Refresh

    @shrang: I am testing Arceus without rain support first, so it isn't outclassed in that respect. With 20 extra HP and Def as well as the extra Speed allowing Arceus to outspeed base 90s with minimal investment, Arceus finds itself in a better position against quite a few threats when compared to Kyogre and Manaphy, most notably Ho-oh. You also have enough Defense to survive 2 unboosted Psystrikes from Mewtwo while not being weak to any of the common coverage attacks, something that most Pokemon only dream about being able to do. I mean hell, you can survive scarf zekrom lightning strikes pretty comfortably, while still having more speed than banded zekrom to pull of a Will-O-Wisp. You can't ignore Waterceus' defensive strongth. Once again, you are correct in the sense that refresh is an inferior option, but there are so many advantages to using Waterceus as well.
  10. JabbaTheGriffin

    JabbaTheGriffin Stormblessed
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    nothing else you'd be using in the last slot generates enough power and each move is really tailored towards what you want to beat anyway (bb for natt, dragon claw for palkia, shadow claw for giratina). but i have always found the priority much more useful than the specialized move and outside of natt, nothing used in ubers resists water + normal. personally i just like forgoing recover since i rarely used it and going with brick break so that you beat natt too
  11. IronGross

    IronGross

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    Spacial Rend is a very useful move on a Water Arceus, so you should use it.
  12. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
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    Overview needs moar epic.

    That said please post the whole skeleton before writing the analysis so we can go ahead and approve it. :)
  13. trickroom

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    Needs a Swords Dance set with Waterfall + Dragon Claw and a filler move, can be Recover or Earthquake / Brick Break / Extremespeed

    See which one is the most useful through your testing. Ferrothorn seems like a good partner to Water Arceus because it can set up on Giratina and resists Electric + Grass. Checks Zekrom and can beat Shaymin-S with Gyro Ball.
  14. Anachronism

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    @Fireburn: Yes, I realized how different this overview is when compared to Steel for example, but honestly does Water Arceus deserve it? I thought it would be more appropriate to tell it like it is. Many of the Arceus overviews aren't very factual. They mostly talk about how Arceus will kill you in a certain flavored way lol. Instead of talking about how Arceus will unleash a wave of torrential destruction upon the opposing team or something, I instead talked about stuff that actually matters from a competitive perspective. The use of so many epithets for ubers really bothers me too. Calling Rayqauza the "ruler of the air" for example is not relevant or competitive information. Regarding the skeleton, I apologize for not doing that first, but honestly the only difference would be that it would be bulleted instead of in paragraph form. I am sort of writing the analyses as I test the sets. I will attempt to make a skeleton in the near future for the rest of it though for you to check out.

    @trickroom: Yeah, when I was editting the post I accidentally erased my previous edit. Essentially it said that SD will probably end up being first on the analysis but I have tested CM far more so I wrote that first. There are many different options to test for the SD set, so testing is going slowly.

    The AC and OO sections are works in progress btw. I just wrote down some important information there that I didn't want to forget.
  15. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    K so... we need Counters. Then QC checks.
  16. trickroom

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    Needs a Support set Waterceus too and Swords Dance set. Support has more bulk than Kyogre physically and has Recover. Swords Dance is something Kyogre can never do!

    Colonel_M's right, where is the Counters section? Not stamping this yet.
  17. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
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    Okay, I'm going to take back my previous opinion that "mono-attacking CM Water Arceus is outclassed by Manaphy". The reason is that if you're not running a rain team but you still want Water Arceus, it is the better way to go (Otherwise, use Manaphy, always). Using it in sun is still quite ineffective, though. Right now I'm running it on my Hail team as a general switch-in to Fire-types (especially Heatran), and without rain, there is no point using Manaphy for this. It's another one of those "support Arceuses that can potentially sweep". Toxic Spikes support is extremely recommended, letting you stall out stupid stuff like Gastrodon more easily. If you can get up two layers of Toxic Spikes, you may even beat CM Grass Arceus in a CM war if you've got a boost or two to start with (although it is a bit risky).
  18. Fireburn

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    Sets need mentions of Teammates.

    For SD set I would can Return and make Dragon Claw the primary coverage option, you miss out on hitting too much crap (Giratina mainly) without it and hitting Dragons for SE is always useful.

    Drop the Ice Beam slash on the CM set - Recover is one of the things that sets Grass Arceus apart from Manaphy. In fact, I'm not really sure on the CM set in general because of Manaphy's existence, who can hold Leftovers and heal itself instantly thanks to HydrationRest. I'd also rather use a different CM Arceus that could synergise better with rain type-wise (like Grass, Steel, Ghost, or Ground, for example) tbh.
  19. alex 67

    alex 67

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    I have a few issues and nitpicks that I think need to be addressed.

    Ferrothorn isn't a strong answer to Ferrothorn lol. What I would recommend doing for these paragraphs is removing the mention of groudon and placing ferrothorn there instead. Overall it's arguably a much better answer anyway because mixed Zekrom's Draco Meteor nearly OHKoes groudon and Ferrothorn resists Zeke's STAB combo

    A couple of other things I noticed was
    6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe and 6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe. Replace the 6 with 4 because everything that goes on site is 4 evs when it's the extra (check onsite you don't believe me).

    Also on the Swords Dance set change "Teammates" to Additional Comments.
  20. Theorymon

    Theorymon ☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄
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    Me and Jibaku spent over 3 hours making these nitpicks, please read over them and listen to what we have to say!

    Overview nitpicks (open)

    -Might want to make the Overview more in line with the other Arceus analyses. I know why you object to it, but its possible to make it sound epic while still being factual!


    Swords Dance nitpicks (open)

    -Return really shouldn’t be there, because Waterfall actually outdamages Return to Pokemon that 2x resist it in the rain, thus it would only do more damage against Palkia (who you can OHKO with a +2 Dragon Claw, and +2 ExtremeSpeed still 2HKOs) and stuff in the sun, which isn't enough of a reason to use it when Dragon Claw hits the many dragons, Brick Break hits Ferrothorn, and ExtremeSpeed has priority.

    -Make Dragon Claw the first option of the third slot, its the only way you are going to OHKO Rayquaza and Palkia after a boost.

    -Put ExtremeSpeed in the last slot too (before Recover), because using Dragon Claw and ExtremeSpeed on the same set is very viable. Still keep ExtremeSpeed in the third slot though, for when you want it with Brick Break.

    -You might want to mention a few specifc KOs and calcs. For example, +2 rainy Waterfall will 2HKO min HP Giratina-O, OHKOs max HP Arceus after Stealth Rock damage 87% of the time, OHKOs Lugia after Stealth Rock damage, deals 47% - 55.4% to max HP Dialga, and does 49.7% - 58.8% to specially defensive Ferrothorn.

    -”...however a neutral Dragon Claw is weaker than a neutral Return (or a resisted Waterfall in the Rain for that matter), which is quite relevant against Calm Mind Kyogre for example.” remove this, Waterfall does more to Kyogre than Return.

    -You mention Kyogre as an “extremely helpful” teammate. Thats not far enough, Kyogre HAS to be on the same team as Water Arceus in order to be effective.

    -You don’t talk about Groudon enough. Groudon is possibly one of Water Arceus’s biggest problems, because that sun will destroy any chances of sweeping! I would also mention Groudon lures such as mixed Zekrom, mixed Rayquaza, and mixed Bulk Up Dialga.

    -Remove Heatran as a teammate, Heatran doesn’t work very well on rain teams.

    -You need to mention that Scarf Zekrom is a huge problem for this set, being able to OHKO you with Bolt Strike after Stealth Rock damage. Sadly, since Groudon is not a good teammate for this set, you are gonna need other Ground types or Electric resists. Some good ones are Dialga, Garchomp, Ferrothorn (you already mention it) and bulky Excadrill. You should also mention Wobbuffet here for trapping Scarf Zekrom and letting you get a free turn to Swords Dance with Encore.

    -Giratina isn’t 2HKOed by a +2 Dragon Claw, and can cripple you with a burn. Some good teammates to beat Giratina are Dialga once again, Darkrai, and Tickle Wobbuffet + a Pursuit user.

    -While +2 Waterfall will 2HKO Specsogre, its going to OHKO you back with Thunder so mention how to deal with that via Thunder switch-ins (aka the same stuff for Zekrom) and the usual Kyogre switch ins.

    -Shaymin-S’s Seed Flare can really screw you up (infact with Modest, Scarfmin OHKOs after SR), since its faster (though +2 ExtremeSpeed hurts it pretty badly). This is especially scary since a lot of the Pokemon that you want to pair Water Arceus with (Grounds and Kyogre) really hate Skymin too. Dialga can be pretty nice for scaring it off (watch out for Earthpower though!), it can Roar subseed and take Seed Flare. On the Life Orb ones, you can switch Dialga into a Seed Flare, then switch in something faster like a scarfer or Mewtwo into Earth Power to revenge it. Ferrothorn will do fine against the scarfers but be careful about non choiced sets, because if Sykmin gets the Sdef drop, it can start flinching you to death.

    -You might want to mention something for Grass Arceus. while you will actually 2HKO specially defensive after SR with a rainy Waterfall, it still does 80-94% with a min SpA Grass Knot.

    -You mention Chansey as a teammate, but to be honest Im not quite sure if Chansey fits in well on the kind of teams Swords Dance Water Arceus should be on, especially since it doesn’t threaten Water Arceus’s biggest problems much besides switching into a Specsogre Thunder, Grass Arceus, and non Subseed Skymin. Its also 2HKOed by a Scarf Zekrom Bolt Strike.


    Calm Mind nitpicks (open)

    - You mention Groudon as a teammate to absorb Zekrom’s Bolt Strikes, but you neglect to mention how Drought hampers Water Arceus’ STAB. While Groudon isn’t as horrible of a teammate as it is for the SD set, mention that you should not be using Groudon without Kyogre or else you might as well use a different Arceus.

    -Remove Heatran as a teammate. Even if you use Kyogre + Groudon, its not good to make more members of the team rely on opposing weathers.

    - Ferrothorn does not cover Ferrothorn...

    - Consider this moveset for this set: Calm Mind/Judgment/Fire Blast/Spacial Rend with mentions of Recover, Ice Beam and Thunder.

    -Boosted Spacial Rend is for 2HKOing Giratina-O, OHKOing Rayquaza after Stealth Rock, and KOing Palkia 58% of the time after Stealth Rock (or 100% after two Stealth Rock switch ins or SR + Spikes). Don’t use Spacial Rend on mons that only 2x resist Judgment though, because Judgment is still stronger in the rain.

    -Fire Blast may seem odd, but the idea is that not only do you 2HKO Ferrothorn after a boost in the rain, you also have a powerful move to save you from being totally screwed in the sun. For example, +1 Fire Blast 2HKOs Dialga, max HP Arceus, Mewtwo (after Mewtwo Calm Minds once!), and Wobbuffet. You can mention Flamethrower, but note that you actually lose out on the 2HKO on Dialga and max HP Arceus so Im not even sure if you should mention it.

    -Thunder + Ice Beam is for when you want to beat Calm Mind Kyogre, and Recover sacrifices coverage for staying power.

    -Something cool to note about Recover is that if you switch Arceus into one layer of Toxic Spikes or get it burned, you can actually beat Blissey and Chansey in the rain!

    -Since Blissey and Chansey are a pain in the ass, mixed Dialga and physically based mixed Palkia can be nice lures.


    Other nitpicks (open)

    - Consider (and/or test) Will-o-Wisp on a mono CM set. Will-o-Wisp can catch unsuspecting Groudons and Zekroms off guard and also, perhaps more notably, burn other CM Arceus so Waterceus can set up and beat them one on one (assuming rain is up). This also sets CM Water Arceus apart from Kyogre and Manaphy for the more reliable burn and not being totally screwed in the sun since it can still burn stuff. Also, unlike mono Calm Mind Kyogre, Arceus can actually beat BU Dialga switch ins in the rain due to its bulk (assuming max HP). The biggest reason to use this set though is because this is probably CM Waterceus’s best chance at abusing Recover. The CM set you have right now always has to sacrifice coverage when using Recover which is really annoying, with this the coverage isn’t as important against stuff like Rayquaza because you can burn them. This has a good chance of being better than other options material because of these benefits, so if this set works as intended, please post it as its own set, as this plays differently than the other Calm Mind set.


    Checks&amp;Counters nitpicks (open)

    -You mention Scarf Palkia as a check, but its not really a good one:: +2 Dragon Claw OHKOs Palkia, while Palkia won’t actually OHKO Arceus with Thunder (it’ll still do 65.1% - 77.2% to min HP Water Arceus though, which is a lot). It can still be a pain for Arceus that lack Dragon Claw. Spacial Rend, or Thunder though.

    -Giratina-O should only be used to check Water Arceus in emergencies, its easily 2HKOed by both set’s boosted attacks so all it can really do is phaze it with Dragon Tail.

    -While Ferrothorn can indeed be a pain, note that both Arceus sets will actually win if it uses Power Whip, Power Whip doesnt OHKO.

    -While Arceus won’t OHKO Scarf Dialga and Kyogre, note that they will be taking a huge amount of damage from boosted Waterfall (and Brick Break for Dialga). Infact, Scarf Kyogre will lose to a healthy boosted Water Arceus that has ExtremeSpeed.

    -You mention Steel Arceus as a check to CM Water Arceus, this isn’t really true. +1 Judgement in the rain does 80% minimum, and even when Steel Calm Minds, it still does 54% minimum. If Water Arceus is running Fire Blast, its screwed in the sun too. So CM Steel’s only chances of phazing or either it being sunny and CM Water Arceus not having a Fire move, or CM Steel wining the speedtie twice and Calm Minding. I would not call that a reliable check at all.

    -You mention that Dialga can’t win one on one against CM, mention Giratina here too because if it can’t phaze due to CM Water Arceus being the last mon, it loses. GIratina also takes 51-61% from a +1 Spacial Rend.
  21. alex 67

    alex 67

    Joined:
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    A lot more nitpicks then I thought there was but I only skimmed it lol. Anyway if you need help making the overview more dramatic but factual I'd be very happy to help.
  22. Furai

    Furai wellfare
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

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    I am just posting to say that I asked Anachronism a while ago to take over this, and he never answered. I am still interested!
  23. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent come at me winter
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
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    mabye mention Outrage in AC of the SD Waterceus? I'm no Ubers expert but it seems like Arceus' best way to take out Giratina
  24. Furai

    Furai wellfare
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

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