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DPP OU We are the Machampions!

Discussion in 'RMT Archive' started by david stone, Feb 2, 2008.

  1. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    Team

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    Jirachi @ Leftovers *** Homeland Security
    Ability: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 8 Atk / 216 Def / 32 Spe
    Impish nature (+Def, -SpA)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Wish
    - Zen Headbutt
    - Body Slam

    Jirachi is pretty cool. I like Stealth Rock because it's awesome and helps vs. enemy dudes trying to just switch around a lot. Body Slam has 60% chance to Paralyze, which royally screws over BPers. I love it when Garchomp comes in, thinking it has a safe switch, only to be nailed by a paralysis, which really puts a damper on its ability to sweep. Jirachi takes Dragon moves, mostly. Body Slam + Zen Headbutt + Serene Grace = they aren't moving very much.


    [​IMG]

    Machamp @ Leftovers *** Big Brother
    Ability: No Guard
    EVs: 252 HP / 220 Atk / 36 Def
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SpA)
    - DynamicPunch
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Ice Punch

    When everyone is paralyzed, Machamp is probably moving first. DynamicPunch gives guaranteed confusion, which is 50% shot to hit yourself in your confusion. Add in Paralysis and you have one mean fighter. I used to use Rock Slide in the last slot because I liked the flinch thing and it has more PP than Stone Edge, but in the end Gliscor proved to be too annoying. It's easier to take down Gyarados and the like, because they are less likely to have Rest vs. Gliscor almost always having Roost.


    [​IMG]

    Tyranitar @ Choice Band *** FBI
    Ability: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SpA)
    - Pursuit
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - Crunch

    I Pursuit those annoying Ghosts, Cresselia, and Aromatherapy Blissey with this guy. I never use Stone Edge unless I need it for a OHKO, because I hate missing. I'm considering Rock Slide, but then it's weaker than Crunch, and sometimes you need that extra kick.


    [​IMG]

    Blissey @ Leftovers *** NSA
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 Def / 80 SpA / 176 SpD
    Calm nature (+SpD, -Atk)
    - Thunder Wave
    - Softboiled
    - Flamethrower
    - Hidden Power Ground / Grass Knot

    I've been using Grass Knot, but I find that I usually want Hidden Power Ground. My three main hang-ups with that are Tyranitar (not hit as hard by Hidden Power Ground compared to Grass Knot), Starmie (if it has Surf, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Recover, it can be annoying, otherwise Celebi, Tyranitar, or Gyarados beat it handily, depending on what attack it drops for Rapid Spin), and Roaring Blizzard Walrein (without Roar, Gyarados sets up, and without Blizzard, Celebi takes it down), although Jirachi can take on Walrein easy, it can get worn down with Spikes on my side. Roar Swampert can also be a pest. Hidden Power Ground would let me do something to Infernape once I get it paralyzed, decimates Heatran, does something to Tentacruel, and has a lot of other cool uses. I find myself in need of HP Ground more than I use Grass Knot, but some of the Grass Knot foes are big trouble if I can't stop them.


    [​IMG]

    Celebi @ Leftovers *** Secret Service
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 4 SpD / 32 Spe
    Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Grass Knot
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Recover
    - Thunder Wave

    Grass Knot and Hidden Power Ice hit just about everything immune to Thunder Wave for SE damage. The only exceptions I can think of are Limber Pokemon (who are mostly Fighters, who pretty much lose to Celebi regardless), Steelix, and Camerupt. The only reason I have HP Ice over Psychic is because of Garchomp, who Celebi takes on surprisingly well.


    [​IMG]

    Gyarados @ Leftovers *** CIA
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 HP / 176 Atk / 60 Def / 20 Spe
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SpA)
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Waterfall
    - Dragon Dance

    This guy is pretty cool. Late game, I consider what kind of team they have. If I'm having trouble breaking their stall, for instance, I'll kill off every other member of my team to kill their Celebi, Charge Beam Cresselia, and Thunderbolt Starmie, and then just DD up for free with Gyarados as they are now unable to phaze me. I need Gyarados to take on Fighters and such, especially Infernape. I'm considering Moltres with a set like Flamethrower, HP Ice, Substitute, Roost in this slot. I used to have Ice Fang over Dragon Dance for Garchomp, but I decided DD is actually lot better to take on non-SD Chomp. I'm thinking of lowering its Attack to make it bulkier. The main reason I am using Gyarados over Moltres is Intimidate, really, and the 2x Rock weakness instead of 4x.


    Synergy

    My strategy is basically to get everything paralyzed. Three of my Pokemon paralyze the foes (two with Thunder Wave, one with Body Slam). Jirachi and Gyarados can abuse flinching moves, while Machamp has confusion. Because of all this paralysis, I don't need Speed.

    I have Machamp and Gyarados that can take sleep, so what I do with that depends on their team. If they are leading with a sleeper, I'll usually go to Gyarados, because I find that I need it less than Machamp, mostly just because of Tyranitar.

    I have nearly a 90% win rate with this team in over a hundred battles. It won me my first two Smogon Tournament 4 matches. I've been seeing a lot more Machamp and Thunder Wave Celebi since then (and Body Slam Jirachi, which I've loved using since ADV). :toast:


    Threat List

    Garchomp: Celebi is my main counter here with HP Ice. Jirachi can Body Slam it for the 60% paralysis if it's stuck with a non-Ground, non-Fire move. Gyarados sets up on certain sets using certain moves (for instance, Chainchomp fails to KO with Draco Meteor, Choice dudes using Fire or Ground moves obviously have to switch out), and Tyranitar and Machamp can hit it pretty hard (Machamp's Ice Punch ignores Sand Veil).

    Blissey: Machamp can take this on all day. If it lacks Thunderbolt, I'm sending out Gyarados and DDing up.

    Gengar: Blissey takes it on nicely. Thunder Wave makes it no longer a threat, and then I can kill it with Flamethrower. If I have it Paralyzed, I can OHKO with CB Pursuit, regardless of whether it switches. Celebi and Gyarados can take Specs Focus Blast, and Jirachi is a good back-up counter with Zen Headbutt.

    Gyarados: Celebi is the best counter. If it doesn't have Ice Fang, it almost always loses to Grass Knot. If it does have Ice Fang, it still usually loses. If I need to, Jirachi can spam Body Slams at it and hope it gets a Para. My own Gyarados can work nicely against some, as long as they don't have Stone Edge and don't Taunt me (lol). But mostly Celebi.

    Tyranitar: Machamp is my actual counter, but if it comes in on a Body Slam or Thunder Wave, it can't DD up. My Tyranitar survives even CB EQ and OHKOs back with my own CB EQ, unless they also have max HP. Celebi 2HKOs with Grass Knot, and Gyarados 2HKOs with Waterfall. Those without Stone Edge / Rock Slide / Thunderbolt are going to get stalled by Gyarados easy.

    Lucario: Once I get it Paralyzed, I can take it on with Blissey, Gyarados, Machamp, and Tyranitar. Special versions fall to Blissey after paralysis (if they are Choice Specs, Blissey takes not Aura Sphere, Celebi and Gyarados take Aura Sphere). Choice Banders have trouble with Jirachi + Celebi + Gyarados, and the Swords Dance set gets paralyzed, then I go to Tyranitar to take the Crunch / ES and EQ it to death, or maybe I switch to Gyarados and abuse Intimidate + paralysis + Waterfall flinch.

    Heatran: Blissey can Paralyze it, letting Machamp and Tyranitar take it on. Tyranitar stops it normally, anyway, as long as I keep it out of Lava Plume and Earth Power. Gyarados uses it to set up. If I add HP Ground to Blissey, Heatran doesn't stand a chance.

    Metagross: I hate Metagross. Choice Banders aren't that bad because I can use Jirachi, Gyarados, and Celebi to take it on with prediction. Clear Body makes my Intimidate useless, though, and even with the resistance MM does a lot to Gyarados. Moltres would help here.

    Salamence: Blissey stops all pure-special versions. Celebi takes on mixed fairly well. Jirachi can do a nice job, too. As soon as it uses Draco Meteor, all but Blissey and Tyranitar take it on no sweat. When I bring in Gyarados, Intimidate ruins Salamence's Brick Break, so Blissey can Paralyze it, making Celebi and Machamp's jobs easier thanks to their Ice moves.

    Bronzong: Bronzong is pretty annoying, but more in the "OK, you're going to die eventually" sense than anything else. OK, it sets up Stealth Rock, but most things can do that. Blissey Flamethrowers, Tyranitar uses CB Crunch, Machamp DynamicPunches (especially with Paralysis), and most importantly, Gyarados starts DDing up. Not even Hypnosis can stop the CIA (that's Gyarados).

    Infernape: This is one of the two main reasons I added Gyarados to my team (it used to be Togekiss). Nasty Plot Life Orb Grass Knot doesn't OHKO. If I have a cool paralysis on Infernape, suddenly 4 of my team members are huge threats (Jirachi, Machamp, Tyranitar, and Gyarados). HP Ground on Blissey would cover this better.

    Swampert: If I keep Grass Knot on Blissey, that's clean 2HKO. Celebi can switch into anything, even Ice Beam / Ice Punch, and OHKO with Grass Knot. Gyarados sets up if it doesn't have Roar.

    Weavile: Gyarados does nicely against it. Jirachi is a good counter, with even CB Night Slash failing to 2HKO (I think) as I Body Slam it for the paralysis. If it's paralyzed, most of my team can hit it with an SE or STAB move. Moltres would only make this less of an issue as far as me hurting it, but no Intimidate makes its Ice Punches hurt more.

    Skarmory: This is yet another guy where Moltres would help. Right now I try to get it paralyzed, and Blissey 2HKOs with Flamethrower, or I use Machamp and get some parafusion going. Tyranitar can CB Stone Edge it, or Gyarados can get down to being the last Pokemon and DD up, or just use Waterfall and hope for some flinching.

    Forretress: Not nearly as bad as Skarmory because it can't Whirlwind, so Gyarados can set up. Zap Cannon can be troublesome, as can Explosion (although neither OHKOs). I can do much of the same against it as Skarmory, except Flamethrower will OHKO the bagworm.

    Gliscor: Gliscor can be annoying with Knock Off, but 3 of my Pokemon have an Ice or Water move. If I can paralyze it with Jirachi, Tyranitar can spam Stone Edge at it and not fear Roost.

    Cresselia: If it doesn't have Charge Beam, it's set-up bait for Gyarados. Tyranitar can Pursuit it or Crunch it as it fails to do anything substantial, which could very well open up their team for a Machamp sweep.

    Starmie: If it lacks Ice Beam, Celebi beats it. If it lacks Thunderbolt, Gyarados gets ready to sweep. No Surf makes it fodder for Tyranitar. If I keep Grass Knot on Blissey, that covers all Starmie nicely. Even with Ice Beam, I'd put my money on Celebi over Starmie, and Tyranitar can survive Starmie's Surf for the OHKOing Crunch, or Pursuit it if it realizes this and tries to flee.

    Breloom: Is there a better Breloom counter than Celebi? Jirachi, too.

    Heracross: Gyarados does decently. Jirachi can Zen Headbutt it. I can use Machamp as a last-ditch effort. Tyranitar Stone Edges when it's paralyzed. This is the other Pokemon that makes me want to use Moltres.

    Togekiss: I paralyze it (usually with Thunder Wave Blissey), then bring in Tyranitar on not-Aura Sphere and not-Thunder Wave for the OHKO.

    Celebi: This thing is annoying ++. If it doesn't have Leech Seed or Perish Song, I can use Gyarados against it somewhat. Tyranitar is the main guy here, because it can Pursuit it for double damage even if it tries to U-turn out of there, or just use Crunch if it thinks it's being funny by staying in and going for a 2HKO Grass Knot. I can also go for the para / CH on it as I spam Flamethrower with Blissey.

    Hippowdon: Celebi takes this as long as it needs to. Gyarados sets up against those without Roar or Stone Edge (and even Stone Edge generally won't beat me). Blissey 2HKOs with Grass Knot.

    Azelf: Blissey Thunder Waves it, then I use Tyranitar or something to kill it.

    Dusknoir: No ThunderPunch means Gyarados sets up. Tyranitar Pursuits or Crunches.

    Snorlax: CB Tyranitar, DynamicPunch Machamp.

    Jirachi: Tyranitar can OHKO most, and 2HKO the rest. Blissey Flamethrowers it. Gyarados sets up on physical versions.

    Suicune: Celebi Grass Knots it, usually to a Rest or a KO, then Tyranitar can KO it as it sleeps. Without Roar or HP Electric, I can do fairly well against it with Gyarados. Celebi + Blissey can PP stall it (Celebi only if it lacks Ice Beam).

    Vaporeon: See above, except there's no more Calm Mind threat and Gyarados can't do anything to it.

    PorygonZ: Blissey or Jirachi can paralyze it. Tyranitar can take on those without HP Fighting. Machamp OHKOs, obviously, but I'm pretty sure Tyranitar does, too. Jirachi can keep the lid on the little polygon with Zen Headbutt.

    Electivire: Celebi does OK. Jirachi just loves to Body Slam it, because when it's paralyzed it can go down to Tyranitar. Machamp is a good final-wall against it.


    And now for whatever is on the threat list but isn't in the top 31, just for fun.


    Machamp: Not nearly as bad as Heracross thanks to no Megahorn, so Celebi can do a good job here (Machamp is pretty heavy). Gyarados stops those without ThunderPunch and Stone Edge, and can even take a Stone Edge or two before needing to Rest. Jirachi does good with Zen Headbutt, especially if I switch to Gyarados to absorb the DynamicPunch first.

    Jolteon: This is pretty much a worse Raikou or Zapdos. Blissey takes on those that don't BP stuff, but I have Thunder Wave everywhere, so BPing Agilities isn't that big of a deal. If I have HP Ground on Blissey, I could break Jolteon's Substitutes, but I don't think Flamethrower does it. Tyranitar takes on Jolteon even easier than Raikou.

    Zapdos: Thunder Wave it and Machamp and Tyranitar laugh. Tyranitar stops it in general. HP Ice on Celebi lets me beat this, too.

    Dugtrio: Dugtrio can't touch Celebi. Blissey is trapped by Dugtrio, though, which is annoying. Jirachi and Tyranitar aren't OHKOed by CB EQ, and Gyarados isn't OHKOed by Stone Edge.

    Ninjask: Stealth Rock gets set up first turn usually. I'm leading with Jirachi, so I can just Body Slam Ninjask. This means it has a 60% chance to not pass Speed, essentially.

    Alakazam: Blissey can Thunder Wave it, and with 2 Special Attacks, doesn't absolutely hate being Tricked Choice Specs. Celebi and Jirachi have the paralysis action going on. Tyranitar has Pursuit if it's stuck using not Focus Blast or doesn't have it or it is paralyzed.

    Aerodactyl: Aerodactyl simply doesn't do enough damage to take out Celebi. Gyarados, Jirachi, Tyranitar, and Machamp are much of the same, depending on what move it uses.

    Rhyperior: As long as it stays out of Megahorn, Celebi can hit it with Grass Knot. Gyarados can Waterfall it, but obviously doesn't take Stone Edge. Machamp and Tyranitar have SE moves on it, and Machamp isn't OHKOed. If Blissey keeps Grass Knot, that's another big threat.

    Staraptor: Jirachi takes Brave Bird and Return, while Gyarados and Celebi take Close Combat.

    Tangrowth: HP Ice Celebi wants to come out and play, although Knock Off is annoying. Gyarados can usually set up, and after enough DDs takes it out. Blissey's Flamethrower hurts this guy a lot.

    Raikou: Sand Stream means it has no Leftovers. If it doesn't Substitute, Blissey or Celebi can Thunder Wave it. if it does, it's just speeding up its own demise. Tyranitar does a good job at taking a few Thunderbolts. Jirachi can use Zen Headbutt and Body Slam to mess with it. This is another reason I'm considering HP Ground on Blissey. I currently can't break Raikou's Substitutes with Blissey, but HP Ground means I can HP Ground the Sub and Thunder Wave the Calm Mind, which means I at least have a shot at paralysis.

    Slowbro: Celebi Grass Knots it for huge damage, Tyranitar Crunches, and if it doesn't have Psychic or HP Electric, Gyarados can, in fact, set up, especially if Slowbro is paralyzed (paraflinch).

    Tauros: Jirachi and Tyranitar resist its STAB moves, with support from Celebi and Gyarados. It can't come in on Machamp, and Blissey threatens Thunder Wave.

    Sceptile: If it doesn't have X-Scissor, Celebi is going to beat it up with HP Ice and Thunder Wave. Blissey does good with Thunder Wave and Flamethrower. Jirachi can use Body Slam so it doesn't have to predict whether it will Substitute or Leech Seed.

    Medicham: Celebi and Gyarados are good to stop it. Jirachi is good back up.

    Slaking: Tyranitar and Jirachi take on STAB, Gyarados and Celebi take on not-STAB. I'll usually Pursuit this with Tyranitar if it kills something, because if it stays in, only EQ will hurt Tyranitar, and I can easily switch out of it goes that route.
  2. Aldaron

    Aldaron All da lil birdies chirpin
    is a Tournament Directoris a Battle Server Administratoris a Smogon IRC SOPis a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis an Administrator
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    God damn your speed! I still haven't started typing mine >_<

    Anyway, have you considered Sub Salac SD Chomp on your team? Ignoring the obvious Synergy concerns for the moment, Sub Sand Veil becomes THAT much more irritating on a team that promotes so much paralysis.

    Instead of .8 * .8, it becomes .6 * .6 if the opponent is paralyzed, meaning on average you are expecting not only to have a Swords Dance set up, but also seeing yourself safely behind a substitute :)

    When I'm not so exhausted I'll give this the attention it deserves, but here is a quick little observation.

    You know about my Trick Room team (lol >:0), and I notice here that Curselax in Trick Room really really gives you trouble. On my team (that now has to wait 3 weeks lol), I actually have Curselax + Wish support, meaning I can allow it take a Dynamicpunch afer 2 curses and KO with Return.

    I am also curious how you handle the extremely popular SD Luke if Stealth Rock is in place, as any proficient user of SD Luke knows, Stealth Rock is vital to ensure many of the expected OHKOs.

    I know that having Machamp as your status absorber and the Dynamicpunch cool factor are hard to let go of, but I noticed on my own hax team that Machamp was the weak link, and I dropped him. Even with 252 HP evs it takes physical hits terribly, and Gengar can still 2HKO with Shadow Ball.

    I'd try and include Perish Song on Celebi for Curselax and for the obvious benefits that it brings. Obviously either HP Ice or Thunder Wave would have to go, and looking at your team, I would say Thunder Wave would have to get the boot.

    As for Machamp's replacement...Well, why not Sub Salac Garchomp? Garchomp can take on Lucario 1 on 1, even after Lucario has Swords Danced, and it adds to the hax measure of this team.

    I'll add more later :)
  3. Yagami Light

    Yagami Light

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    A wonderfully solid team you have here. The main issue I see here is with a Swords Dance/CC/Megahorn/Stone Edge Heracross. A misprediction here could quickly end up being a loss. I haven't run exact calcs, but I'm sure that Celebi, Tyranitar, Blissey and Machamp will be killed, very fast, by a +2 Heracross. That leaves Jirachi and Gyara. Jirachi takes 76.98% - 90.59%from a +2 Heracross Megahorn. That is 100.25% - 117.82% with a Life Orb. And to your Gyara a non Life Orb Hera with +1 Atk does :100.51% - 118.27% with Stone Edge. Just a heads up to watch out for this.

    I did a quick calc just now for Machamp with CC. 125.78% - 147.92%. It's also a OHKO after Intimidate with SR as well.
  4. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    I have noticed that Machamp is sadly the weak link, but it does help against some annoying dudes like Tyranitar and Snorlax. Substitute Garchomp would work in that slot, but I would use Leftovers or BrightPowder, not Salac, probably, because I can already get rid of the Natural Curing Starmie, and I'm faster than just about everything else.
  5. JabbaTheGriffin

    JabbaTheGriffin Stormblessed
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    And obvious problem that stands out to me is if your opponent runs both Stealth Rock + Spikes. Either Skarmory or Forretress can come in on several of your pokemon and get a free layer in.

    Jirachi seems to do the least on your team seeing as the only pokemon that really benefits from wish support is Tyranitar.

    Adding Forretress or Starmie somewhere in the mix i think could help your team a great deal.
  6. TAY

    TAY You and I Know
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    What do you do if you encounter an Infernape that runs, say, CC/Thunderpunch/U-Turn/Overheat ? If SR is down, even Gyara can't switch in, and the next best wall, against it, Machamp, takes ~72% from Close Combat meaning it cant switch in more than once. You're unlikely to paralyze it unless it gets switched in on Celebi, and if gyara gets taken down too fast Infernape will run through your team anyway.

    LO Staraptor with Brave Bird/CC/Roost/U-Turn or Return can also give this team trouble if Gyara is KO'd or asleep or SR is down.

    There have also been several comments about Heracross.

    My point is that you rely very heavily on Gyara as a physical wall. You do a bit to solve this through rest/talking, but any good player won't let it sleep for more than a turn at a time, and it's slower than most sweepers. The facts that Gyara is weak to SR and that Sleep Talk only has a 1/3 chance to use an attacking move don't help either.

    Replacing Machamp with Gliscor would solve all these problems, though you would lose a lot of offensive power. Still, on a Paralysis team taunt could be very effective, or you could use knock off or SR to free up a moveslot on Jirachi.

    Fortunately, Staraptor is pretty rare, and the only one who runs that Infernape is me >_> ; so all in all, it's a pretty good team.

    Good Luck; Hope this Helps! --TAY
  7. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
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    If I use Gliscor, then Nasty Plot Infernape is pretty much gg. Jirachi takes on non-CB Staraptor pretty easy with Wish.
  8. Bologo

    Bologo Have fun with birds and bees.
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    Hmm, well this looks like a cool enough team Obi.

    I just have one little problem with it, and that's the Spiritomb weakness. Spiritomb is becoming much more popular thanks to Wobbuffet and Deoxys-S being allowed, and it does give your team a little bit of a problem. Plus it is an OU anyway.

    For instance, Nasty Plot/CMing Spiritomb can come in on damn near everything on the team and then put something to sleep if it has Hypnosis, and start Nasty Plotting. Then, its attacking moves are usually Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse and Hidden Power Fighting. Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse kills Celebi while Hidden Power Fighting destroys Tyranitar and Blissey after Nasty Plot.

    The only one on the team that can really handle it is Gyarados if it already has a couple of Dragon Dances, but the others have a lot of trouble against it.

    For instance, Jirachi can't hurt it, Machamp can only do Ice Punch which won't really do much being non-STAB and only 75 BP, Tyranitar gets broken by HP Fighting, Blissey can't really hurt it much while Spiritomb can set up in its face since it doesn't care much about Thunder Wave due to low speed, and Celebi can't really take repeated STAB moves from Spiritomb since they're both super effective.

    To lessen the blow from Spiritomb, I'd recommend putting Taunt on your Gyarados, so that an attacking Spiritomb cannot set up, which will lessen the blow to your team, though I'm not really sure what you'd put Taunt over. Or, if you're replacing any of your pokemon, I'd recommend a Taunter, or just something that can kill Spiritomb with ease.

    Other than that, this is a great team with some great new ideas, such as the RestTalking Gyarados. Good job Obi. :]
  9. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
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    Seismic Toss wouldn't help against Dugtrio. I'd need Ice Beam or Counter for that.

    Gyarados takes on Heatran easy, unless you are saying Taunt HP Electric Heatran, in which case Tyranitar stops it fairly well.

    Swords Dance Lucario is tough, yes, and my only real solution is something like Paralyze it and then bring out Tyranitar on not Close Combat, but that's still better than adding Gliscor because, as I said, that means I pretty much instantly lose to Nasty Plot Infernape (well, Infernape in general). If I'm losing anything for Gliscor, it's Machamp, although I'm considering Garchomp there, as well.

    Spiritomb is a rather large problem, yes, and is in fact the reason I'm not using a Spiritomb of my own over Tyranitar. I would have some kind of Pursuit Spiritomb where Tyranitar is, but I'm afraid that I wouldn't have the offense to break an enemy Spiritomb. Right now, I can at least nail it with Stone Edge (Spiritomb is also the main Pokemon I want Stone Edge to hit instead of Rock Slide) then follow up with a Waterfall for the KO.

    If you can spot the theme here, it's that I'd rather have to play around 5 common Pokemon than instantly lose to 1. I've saved myself from a few sure-losses with just mind games, but I can't really rely on that.
  10. Xênaz

    Xênaz

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    First off, awesome team. Some loser at a different forum posted it as his own, so I'm glad I found this thread of your team. Anyways, one possible threat I see is McGar. I'm not sure if it can 2HKO Machamp, but can't it come close to a 1-2HKO on almost everything on your team? With an Expert Belt, it doesn't need too much Attack EVs for Blissey (correct me if I'm wrong), Tyranitar falls to Focus Punch (since you'd be switching TTar in vs. Gengar, not the other way around, allowing him to set up), Celebi is 2HKO'd by Shadow Ball I believe, Gyarados is raped by Thunderbolt, I THINK Machamp is 2HKO'd but I could be terribly wrong, and Jirachi is the only one that lives two hits.

    Unless some of my calcs are wrong, I think McGar is the only possible threat to this team. Other than that, I really like it. :heart:
  11. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
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    Well, I've been using this team for quite some time now. As I mentioned, I've fought over 100 battles with it.

    http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/forum/showthread.php?t=75462

    Is the link for anyone interested. He used to have Gyarados over Starmie.

    /edit: lol at someone copying my team before I post it. I guess it beats the rush...
  12. Earthworm

    Earthworm
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    You will have alot of troubles with Sub+CM Jirachi that runs Psychic/HP Fight as well as stuff like Mismagius and Raikou (less so thanks to Sandstorm).

    SDLucario/ChoiceHeracross are problems to any team without Gliscor so I think you're good enough in that department, however.

    edit: Nice team, and the Jirachi I mentioned is of course beaten by Blissey with Flamethrower + Thunderwave + Prediction.
  13. Lee

    Lee @ Thick Club
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    I think the team is let down a little by poor speed. I understand that it is based around paralysis, but that cannot always be relied upon. If something like Gallade/Heracross were to get in a Swords Dance, you would have little reply. I think a revenge killer could help in certain situations, but heck, if it aint broke, don't fix it.
  14. Taylor

    Taylor stardust infinite
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    I think that Aldaron has made a valid point about Garchomp. It's just fitting it in the team which is the problem.

    I am not posting to try and fix this because I am more interested into why you posted a team that could potentially win alot of your matches in ST4. Seing this in the open, it tells me you will not be using it anymore for ST4. Therefore, with your permission is it possible for me to play around with the team with personal changes of my own?

    I do like the team and the whole idea behind it.
  15. IggyBot

    IggyBot !battle
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    Let's see Obi's counter to SD Lucario:
    Unfortunatly, Obi even admits that SD Lucario will give him a ton of trouble, unless he manages to paralyze it. If you actually read the counter section to SD Lucario, Obi is assuming that he will infact paralyze it. If it isn't paralyzed, Lucario has the ability to tear through this team, which is why Slice recomended Gliscor.

    Please Obi, tell me if I missed something there, but from what I read, you are assuming that you will paralyze SD Lucario sometime during the battle.
  16. Aeroblacktyl

    Aeroblacktyl The pizza doesn't scream in the oven! LOL!
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    For some reason I'd so much more rather use Dugtrio over Tyranitar or something. Kills off those annoying ass Heracrosses that can seem to OHKO half the team as it is.

    Infernape is starting to get frisky? Kill the motherfucker off too.

    And not to mention it'd stop the Jirachi that sweeps your team 3-0.
  17. Dark Void

    Dark Void

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    I realize this. However. . .

    As I've said, he seems to be doing fine against it. I do realize that relying on Paralysis as a main form of taking out a threat isn't exactly good, but it really isn't worth the replacement of one of these Pokemon. It will either take out a piece of his strategy, or remove something that provides more counters (x) for less, or uneeded ones (Gliscor) - all to counter one (Lucario), or potentially two (Heracross) Pokemon.
  18. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    Someone named chaos havocx (can't remember the name specifically) challenged me with this team. First of, allow me to give credit on that SleepTalk Gyara: it's a very nice set that even put the scare on me.

    Anyways, I don't think you're fully aware of it, but status itself could cause a problem or two, specifically if it's on your "sweepers": Jirachi and Tyranitar. Even though I've lacked Speed to outspeed your good old Jirachi (I use Gallade), I do think that a player that is unexperienced with the team doesn't know the full "grasp" on the team and could end up loosing.

    However, I'm agreeing on Aeroblackyl and saying that Dugtrio could do some good to the team. He can't specifically counter Swords Dance Lucario (who, let's face it, everyone is weak to without Weezing / Gliscor), but he can at least take on your Infernape and Heracross problems. And don't forget, he's immune to Thunder Wave, so no worries on Speed drops. I'm also going on a limb and going to say to find Aromatherapy / Heal Bell in this team somewhere as it would do good for your Jirachi and Tyranitar greatly.
  19. Lee

    Lee @ Thick Club
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    I was up against arrogance using this team earlier, and the lack of a revenge killing prescence really lets it down in my estimation. After paralysing Jirachi and killing Celebi, it was pretty much gg when Marowak used Swords Dance.

    Of course, Marowak is an obscene example, and when something has 1036 Atk and is faster than your whole team, you're most likely fucked. But that could have easily been Heracross or Gallade with 698 Atk, but no need to remove Celebi or Jirachi beforehand.

    I'm agreeing with Aldaron's Garchomp suggestion, and to a lesser degree MoP's Dugtrio suggestion. Paralysis is great when it works, but you can't rely on everything being paralysed all the time. This team needs a solid revenge killer.

    It must be a testimony to your gaming skills that you've done so well with this team, because it certainly has it's flaws and unlike the excellent stall team, they are common, easily exposed flaws.
  20. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
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    I have used a "revenge killer" twice in DP, and they were CB Dugtrio (once in ubers, once in OU). In ubers, I mostly switched it into Choice Thunders or predicted switches to Dialga / etc., and in OU, it was mostly U-turning it in, so it wasn't even really a revenge killer.

    People got along fine without filling up their team with revenge killers in ADV, GSC, and RBY, but with all the new ways to do that, people have gotten used to it. I've used one Scarf Pokemon (Scarf Abomasnow, again in ubers), unlike most people who seem to like 2-3 per team. That's just not my style of play.
  21. Xênaz

    Xênaz

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    I must say, this style of team is very appealing to me. I have a similar team up on Shoddy that I made after being inspired after reading this thread, and it has done better than any team I've run. I can't say I have too much advice to fix it.. Sometimes Heatran can be a threat, but as long as I slap a Paralysis on it I can have it killed.

    Nice team, yours are always fun to read. ^.^

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