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Weavile (Analysis)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by SJCrew, Dec 17, 2010.

  1. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    [​IMG]
    http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-bw/461.shtml

    [Overview]

    <p>For most of its existence, Weavile has generally been regarded as a niche Pokemon. This has not changed in Black and White. Fortunately for Weavile, its niche skills are readily in demand with the influx of both old and new Dragons alike, giving it more targets for its STAB Ice attacks. Furthermore, STAB Dark and access to Pursuit allows it to trap and kill some important targets in the OU metagame. The party stops once you recognize its poor defenses, and weakness to Stealth Rock, but with the proper support, his unrivaled prowess as a dragon slayer, psychic spook, and potent revenge killer all in one will demonstrate exactly why it remained OU for the entirety of the previous generation.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Standard Weasel
    move1: Ice Shard
    move2: Pursuit
    move3: Ice Punch / Night Slash / Punishment
    move4: Low Kick
    item: Choice Band / Life Orb
    nature: Jolly
    ability: Pressure
    evs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>A standard Choice Band set manages to accentuate all of Weavile's best attributes: 120 base Attack, 125 base Speed, STAB Pursuit, and being one of the few viable users of STAB Ice attacks. The main attractions here are its exceedingly useful Ice Shard and Pursuit. With these moves in tow, an Outraging Dragon is never truly safe, fearing a swift icicle to the face in the middle of its rampage. While switching in is almost never advisable, Weavile can usually catch these targets on the revenge, leaving them trapped, helpless, and vulnerable to the inevitable KO.</p>

    <p>Pursuit is arguably one of the most useful moves in the game, punishing predicted switches and effectively trapping enemies. Less defensively inclined targets, such as Gengar, Starmie, and Latios, are often KOed regardless of whether or not they switch (with a little prior damage required in the case of Latios), adding to Weavile's repertoire the technical role of a 'trapper'. Be wary of using this on bulkier Psychics like Reuniclus, however, which do not fear Weavile's Pursuit and can either cripple it with status, or in Reuniclus's case, OHKO it.</p>

    <p>Thankfully, Weavile's role as a revenge killer is not limited to two 40 Base Power attacks. The other two moveslots are occupied by the ever-useful Low Kick, which offers excellent coverage alongside Weavile's Dark-type moves, as well as having the ability to OHKO both bulky and heavy targets like Terakion, Tyranitar, and Heatran. It can also catch Weavile's long-time nemesis, Scizor, on the switch for decent damage.</p>

    <p>The choice between Ice Punch or Night Slash on the final slot should be made while considering how your team handles specific Dark- or Ice-type weak enemy Pokemon. If you fear bulky Psychics and Ghosts enough to use it, Night Slash is a viable option, but Ice Punch is generally more useful for taking on the many bulky Grass-, Flying-, Dragon-, and Ground-types that currently reside in OU. Additionally, Ice Punch is often its strongest option against targets it can only hit for neutral damage. Punishment is an option reserved strictly as a trump card for teams weak to bulky Calm Mind users. At the forefront of these threats is Reuniclus, followed by Jirachi, Suicune, and possibly even the odd Cresselia.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Having to choose between Choice Band and Life Orb on a Pokemon weak to Stealth Rock is a bit limiting, but there are alternatives in the form of Expert Belt and Muscle Band. You can these to bluff a Choice item and switch moves when your opponent thinks you're locked into something. It's a fun tactic to abuse, but our little assassin will miss the loss in power incurred through choice. In a life or death situation, the standard items will serve you better.</p>

    <p>This set will require plenty of switching, making entry hazards a considerable factor in how you'll play in the match. You're generally going to want Rapid Spin somewhere on your team in order to employ the full extent of Weavile's capabilities. Starmie and Forretress work pretty well in this regard, but keep in mind you're going to have to decide between the lesser of two evils: a compounded Bug or Fire weakness. A Choice-locked Weavile is also one of the easiest Pokemon to set up on, so you'll really want something with Roar or Whirlwind on your team, preferably with a lot of physical bulk too. Gyarados, Skarmory, and Hippowdon immediately come to mind, though many notable walls will work well for this role and keep Weavile from becoming a liability once its done its job.</p>

    <p>The recommended EVs in this set call for 216 Speed with 40 EVs allocated to HP. Weavile's speed tier is very unique, shared only by Swellow and Darkrai, neither of which you will see in a standard OU match. 216 Speed EVs are just enough to outspeed the odd base 120 Speed Sceptile, Alakazam, or Dugtrio, which are all low Defense targets Weavile can trap with Pursuit. With 40 HP EVs, there is a subtle increase in Weavile's survivability, allowing it to take certain attacks like LO Starmie's Hydro Pump without being KOed, assuming no prior damage has been dealt. If you're scared to death of enemy Weavile, you're free to run max Speed, but there are so many other viable checks and counters to it that a Speed tie is usually not necessary to beat it.

    [SET]
    name: Swords Dance
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: Ice Shard / Ice Punch
    move 3: Night Slash
    move 4: Low Kick
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Jolly
    ability: Pressure
    evs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Term of the day is late-game cleaner, and no better term exists to describe this set. Due to Weavile's lack of defenses and by extension, relatively low number of chances to set up, it's best to keep its function as a revenge killer in mind earlier in the game and attempt a sweep only when its counters have been cleared or at least weakened. As previously mentioned, setup opportunities are very few in number, but still exist. For example, a Scizor or Tyranitar Choice-locked into Pursuit leaves Weavile an open opportunity to set up as they switch out. Be wary of setting up on Scizor, as it can come in later and OHKO with Bullet Punch if it hasn't been adequately weakened prior to setup.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Even after a Swords Dance boost, Weavile can still be walled rather easily by common defensive Pokemon. Skarmory, for instance, is looking at a 2HKO from Ice Punch, but the first hit gives him just enough time to Whirlwind Weavile out or KO Weavile with Brave Bird. Bulky Water-types in general can block him, especially Suicune, but if it's at half HP or below, a boosted Night Slash will KO.</p>

    <p>Weavile usually only gets one shot at a sweep, so the best way to support it would be to lure its counters early on in the match. Magnezone takes advantage of Steel-type switch-ins like no other, and prevents their escape with Magnet Pull. Defensive Water-types are good for warding off Scarf Heatran and other Fire-type switch-ins. Jellicent stands out with its additional resistances to the Bug- and Fighting-type attacks often aimed at Weavile, and has Recover to keep it in the fray. Espeon and Xatu handily reflect Stealth Rock and check some of Weavile's Fighting-type enemies like Conkeldurr.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Sadly, Weavile's usable movepool is fairly limited. Brick Break is probably the first option that comes to mind, as it fits on all of its movesets and can be used as a more consistent option than Low Kick—consistently weaker, that is. Fake Out and Counter make an anti-lead set possible, but not advisable, considering the presence of team viewing mechanics and a stronger, bulkier metagame that does not encourage the use of suicide leads. Taunt is a viable option on Life Orb sets to prevent the likes of Ferrothron and Skarmory from setting up on Weavile.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Bulky Steel-types that aren't weak to Low Kick are Weavile's greatest obstacles. Scizor can switch in on anything Weavile has safely and threaten to OHKO it with either Bullet Punch or U-turn. Jirachi is about the same in this regard, with Iron Head over Bullet Punch. Skarmory and Forretress can more or less use Weavile as an easy opportunity to set up entry hazards; Ferrothorn can also do this to a lesser extent, provided Weavile is locked into a resisted move or hasn't had the chance to boost. It can also threaten to OHKO with Gyro Ball, if necessary. In addition, bulky Water-types, barring Jellicent, wall most of its attacks and can threaten to burn with Scald.</p>

    <p> Fighting-types are generally good for keeping Weavile in check as well. Conkeldurr is easily Weavile's biggest threat among them, as it can Bulk Up on a Pursuit-locked Weavile and continue threatening the rest of its team, or KO instantly with Mach Punch. Lucario and Infernape resist both of its STABs and can either set up or KO with priority. Ninetales is a relatively safe switch-in too, as are other less common Fire-types, like Arcanine.</p>

    [Dream World]

    <p>Pickpocket has its merits, being an ability Weavile can finally make use of, but there are two crippling flaws that prevent it from being a godsend: its activation requirements and required movepool restriction. It activates once your opponent makes contact with Weavile, but this is something you generally want to avoid because of its low Defense. There's also the fact that it requires you to have no item, meaning its use cannot be employed on any standard set. It can be used in the lead position, though, as it steals your opponent's item the instant Focus Sash activates.</p>

    <p>As far movepool restrictions go, the loss of Low Kick is a very big deal for Weavile, as it misses KOs on targets like Heatran and Ferrothorn, and subsequently requires your team to garner even greater prior damage before Weavile can even consider entering the ring. Weavile's ability to contend with Steel-types is doubly important in a metagame dominated by Dragon-types, making its pickpocketing not only a bad habit, but a bad choice.</p>
  2. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    Nice work SJCrew. You didn't properly format the analysis though, it should look like this:


    [SET]
    name: Standard Weasel
    move1: Ice Shard
    move2: Low Kick
    move3: Ice Punch / Night Slash
    move4: Pursuit
    item: Choice Band / Life Orb / Muscle Band
    nature: Jolly
    ability: Pressure
    evs: 4HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    (***)
  3. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    Holy shit I totally forgot about this. O_o Thanks for the heads up, though, I'll fix that right away.

    *cracks knuckles*

    Back to the grind.
  4. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    Not 100% on the overall formatting, but the analysis itself is downpat. Comments are welcome at this point.
  5. Omicron

    Omicron
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    Why not slash Focus Sash as an item for the SD set as it guarantees at least one SD, you just have to make sure inclement weather and priority users are all gone before then.

    Edit: Oh and you forgot to mention in the [Teammates and Counters] section that Burungeru also resists Fire, another one of Weavile's weaknesses.
  6. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    There is so much you have to watch out for now (entry hazards, weather, priority, phaze, etc.) that getting the Sash to work is quite impossible to do. And if it does work, you must stricly use the SD set in late game because even with the doubled Attack, Weavile cannot break through some of those walls with the low base power of his moves(primarily his STABs) and no Life Orb. A slash might be OK for the Focus Sash, but there's little reason to use it over the Life Orb.

    An Anti-Lead set using the Focus Sash is of course an option. I don't know if it's good enough to have its own set up at this stage of the game however.
  7. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    Mid-game sash is very difficult to justify on anything that isn't Magic Guard Alakazam. It's mostly a gimmick strategy that not-so-good players use to get a surprise kill or setup, but indirect damage is absolutely everywhere in this game, so it's not even going to work most of the time.

    Life Orb is consistent and makes a sweep more feasible when you do manage to find those rare-but-sweet setup opportunities. Weavile cannot afford to skimp out on any of that power, especially considering the low base power of his moves weaken his damage output as it is. In fact, let's look at a few examples to illustrate why this is important:

    +2 Ice Punch on Skarmory: 39.5% - 46.7%
    With LO: 51.5% - 61.1%

    +2 Ice Punch on Hippowdon: 76.2% - 90.5%
    With LO: 100% - 117.6%

    +2 Low Kick on Blaziken: 73.4% - 86.4%
    With LO: 95.3% - 112.3%

    +2 Ice Shard on Scarf Sazandora: 83.1% - 98.5%
    With LO: 108.9% - 128%

    Come now, you're missing KOs on Dragons of all things. I'd rather have a consistent sweep than an invitation to be reckless for a turn and get a surprise kill. Also, the viability of the Lead set and why it was excluded was covered in OC. As I read through some of these other topics, QC seems to be moving about the same direction: Lead sets aren't as viable in a metagame that allows you to reveal and reorganize your team.
  8. Lirg

    Lirg

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    As an additional move, you could use Punishment. The move has only 60 BP but it could KO bulky (psychic) calm minder.
  9. Mr.Senior

    Mr.Senior

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    no mention of the old fake out counter lead? those things used to mess me up lol. mainly cuz i ran azelf leads and mostly physical mons. anything special was like starmie or special based ape. its a good attacking/anti-lead and i think should get its own set still still.
  10. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    I covered why I'm not putting in the Lead set, in both OC and another one of my posts in this topic. With the ability to see and rearrange your team, suicide leads just aren't around anymore, so Weavile can't really screw over that lead Azelf or Aerodactyl (which are kind of like...the only two leads it ever beat to begin with). I can add Counter to Other Options along with Fake Out, but we can't seriously say it's a viable set anymore.

    Also, Punishment is an excellent idea, and I can really see it coming into play as a trump card for a Rankurusu-weak team that needs Weavile as well. That can go in Other Options too.
  11. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    You can fake it however and not put Weavile on the first slot, heh heh. I wonder if trickery like that is being used widely. I still don't think it should be added on yet. OC is good enough.
  12. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    Does the 40 HP EV's matter? I don't see it making Weavile survive anything else.

    Of course, you can always counter this question by asking what does Maximum Speed matter, but this is just food for thought. It's like running extra HP evs on a Terakion even though most other Terakion and Virizion run maximum speed "for the sake of it".
  13. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    They matter a lot, actually, since Weavile survives LO Starmie's Hydro Pump at 99% max with 40 HP EVs. It's actually a little surprising how many KOs you'll miss on him because of a bit of extra bulk. Matter of fact, I even recall switching into a bulky Shaymin's HP Fire twice, then nailing him in the face with Ice Punch the second time. Yeah, fuck you Shaymin.

    I was actually thinking of where to put the comments about EVs, but I don't have a section for that lol. I'll think of something. But yeah, anyway, Weavile's speed tier is so unique that the only time he was ever forced to run max was when Darkrai was around. A little extra bulk never hurt.
  14. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    Good call.

    I realized the 4th generation analysis never really made it clear why 40 HP EV's were used, so a couple of sentences in a "description paragraph" explaining that would probably be awesome.

    Also, tiny nitpick, but perhaps the thread should be tagged Quality Control. Additionally, add <p> and </p> for the paragraphs.
  15. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    Seriously?

    I'm going to do some calcs myself for this guy...
  16. Omicron

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  17. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    Just use him, he's good.
  18. Judas DN

    Judas DN

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    If those ev's in bulkiness are that beneficial wouldn't 80HP/252Att/184Spe be better? The only pokemon in the Wifi ladder who sit between the 365 and 383 speed bracket are Sceptile, Alakazam and Dugtrio which are all extremely rare(at least until Magic Guard Alakazam is released).
  19. SJCrew

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    The extra bulk is unnecessary. It doesn't matter if they're rare, you just don't want to lose to them if they show up. Being just above 120 is about the same as being base 125 because nothing rests between it. Even if the odd Swellow shows up, it's just going to to die to Ice Shard. The EVs are fine.
  20. Delta 2777

    Delta 2777 Machampion
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    What do the 216 Speed EVs outrun? I'd either go for outrunning Choice Scarf Tyranitar or just maxing speed.
    I also think that Punishment should recieve a slash before Night Slash on the first set.
  21. symphonyx64

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    Anything that has base 120 speed with a speed-benefical nature and max speed. Think Dugtrio and Alakazam.
  22. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    Outspeeding 120 base threats doesn't make it Speed creep either, so yeah, 216 Speed EVs are perfectly acceptable. For the threats actually outspeeding Weavile, it can just run Ice Shard and be done with them.
  23. Delta 2777

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    Dugtrio and (to a lesser extent) Alakazam are both raped by Ice Shard, not to mention they're both almost unseen in standard play. Like I said either go for ScarfTar or just max it.

    (how is outspeeding ScarfTar speed creep?)
  24. PK Gaming

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    Yeah I agree with Delta, you should run max speed because that extra bulk literally does nothing. Weavile is so frail it hardly matters if you run that extra defense. Sure you can take the odd hit or too, but weakness to Stealth Rock pretty much negates that bulk. Outspeeding Scarftar on the other hand is really awesome, and it makes Weavile deadly against teams that rely on Ttar as their scarfer.

    Also agreeing with the Punishment slash. Night Slash doesn't even OHKO Rankurusu (-_-) but it allows Weavile to deal hefty amounts of damage to Rankurusu after a few boosts. Do that and you can consider this stamped.
  25. holyone

    holyone

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    why not give wevile this good lead combo

    ability bad habit train atk and speed to max
    moves counter, ice punch, night slash, fakeout
    with a focus sash...;]

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