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Weavile (Ubers analysis)

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by mtr, Aug 25, 2009.

  1. mtr

    mtr

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    [​IMG]DPP Weavile (Ubers)
    http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/weavile

    [SET]
    name: Ubers Revenge Killer
    move 1: Ice Shard
    move 2: Night Slash
    move 3: Low Kick
    move 4: Pursuit / Ice Punch
    item: Life Orb / Expert Belt
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p>Weavile’s physical Ice- and Dark-type STAB moves, combined with its access to Ice Shard and Pursuit, make it an excellent revenge killer and trapper in the Ubers tier, which is filled with Dragon- and Psychic-types. Weavile is not only insurance against top threats such as Rayquaza, Garchomp, and Latios; it can also create sweeping opportunities by using Pursuit or Night Slash to clear out defensively-oriented pokemon such as Latias and Blissey, opening the door for Pokemon like Kyogre.</p>

    <p>Ice Shard and Night Slash are givens for the purpose of scoring OHKOs on threats such as Dragon Dance Rayquaza, Choice Scarf Garchomp, Latios, Latias, Shaymin-S, and Wobbuffet (with minor prior damage). Low Kick is an excellent move to deal with Kyogre, Darkrai, and Dialga. The final move depends on the needs of the team that Weavile is operating on. Pursuit can be useful against Latias, Latios, and Blissey, opening up a possible sweep if your prediction is correct. With Tickle and Encore support from Wobbuffet, you can even break through Lugia fairly easily. A lesser used but still viable option is Punishment, which can be handy against bulkier Calm Mind users such as Kyogre, Giratina, and Giratina-O. Ice Punch can surprise and 2HKO an incoming Groudon, which can allow a Pokemon such as Dragon Dance Rayquaza to sweep with its counter removed.</p>

    <p>The EVs on this set maximize Speed for the purpose of forcing a Speed tie with a positive-natured Darkrai, should the situation arise. The use of an Adamant nature does not guarantee any OHKOs that a Jolly nature doesn’t, so it is inadvisable. The reason is that this set doesn't use a Choice Band is that Weavile despises being locked into one attack, because it may be frequently switching. The Life Orb is the recommended item on this set, because Weavile isn't bulky enough to be taking hits anyways. However, an Expert Belt is viable for the purpose of bluffing a Choice Band and avoiding HP loss.</p>

    <p>The first thing to note with this set is that it can be dead weight against Ubers stall teams. Forretress and Skarmory enjoy setting up entry hazards and using Rapid Spin (in the case of the former) against Weavile. Therefore, it is important to carry stall-breaking Pokemon on your team. Darkrai and Rayquaza have the potential to break through a stall team or at least cause serious damage, which the rest of your team can then exploit. Mewtwo, with its access to Taunt, Substitute, and Calm Mind, can do the same, while Dialga and Palkia can run mixed sets to great effect. You will also need a method to defeat Kyogre, Mewtwo, and to a lesser extent Manaphy, who can take a hit from Weavile and defeat it fairly easily. A Choice Specs Palkia can handle Kyogre (barring a Calm Mind variant) and Manaphy. A Calm Mind Kyogre can handle Mewtwo fairly easily, but watch out for sets with Thunder (usually Life Orb users). Choice Scarf users such as Palkia and Dialga are also useful against Mewtwo, as is the faster Deoxys-A. Blissey is not recommended as a Mewtwo counter because of her meager offensive presence.</p>

    <p>And although it resides in OU, Scizor is easily the best counter to this set, because it can threaten Weavile with a Bullet Punch or U-turn, while Weavile does little to it in return. Fortunately, Groudon and Dialga handily defeat it. Watch out for repeated U-turns, though, which can really put a damper on your efforts to maintain offensive momentum. Against a skilled Scizor user, the Weavile player will need to employ aggressive prediction and use double switching to ensure that he comes out on top.</p>


    [SET]
    name: Ubers Swords Dancer
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: Ice Shard
    move 3: Low Kick
    move 4: Night Slash
    item: Life Orb / Expert Belt
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p>Swords Dance Weavile in Ubers is no joke, striking many of the Dragon- and Psychic-types with boosted Ice Shards or Night Slashes at their weaker Defense stats. The problem here is that Weavile finds it difficult to set up a Swords Dance on many Pokemon in the Ubers metagame, as a smart player will attack you rather than switch, ending your sweeping aspirations. However, Encore support from Wobbuffet can make it easy to find an opportunity to boost your attack and proceed to sweep in ways that Lucario or Rayquaza can't manage.</p>

    <p>The listed moves are the set's best choices. Night Slash is your primary move, with the horrific attacking power OHKOing Lugia and even striking fear into Giratina, who is OHKOed over half the time with Stealth Rock, one layer of Spikes, and a Life Orb. Ice Shard is a necessity to hit Shaymin-S and Rayquaza (who often carries ExtremeSpeed). Low Kick strikes many Ubers with base 120 power, landing OHKOs on Dialga, Palkia, Darkrai, and Kyogre. It should be noted that Ice Punch is an option over any of the moves if you need to OHKO Groudon. The EVs are relatively intuitive for a sweeper, but it's worth noting that using an Adamant nature is inadvisable, as you will lose the Speed tie with Darkrai, who cannot be OHKOed by Ice Shard. Additionally, using an Adamant nature doesn't give you any OHKOes that a Jolly misses out on, except that it can give you a better chance of beating Giratina and Dialga. The choice of an item is up to your playstyle. A Life Orb gives you the raw power necessary to OHKO walls such as Lugia, Giratina, and Dialga, while dealing more damage to threats such as Kyogre and Palkia, should you have to face them. An Expert Belt ensures that HP loss is minimized, and can also be used to bluff a Choice Band, perhaps making it easier to set up on or defeat various threats.</p>

    <p>When using this set, you should focus on its advantages over its rival Swords Dancers, Rayquaza and Lucario. The main gift that Weavile has is that it can outpace and OHKO Lugia without locking itself into Outrage (which Dragon Dance Rayquaza variants suffer with). Also, it can fairly easily deal with Latios and Latias, who often give Swords Dance Rayquaza variants some trouble. The main disadvantage Weavile has is that it is frail, and has very few resistances or immunities which it can exploit to find time to Swords Dance. Because of this, Wobbuffet support is a necessity, as is a Stealth Rock user, whose combined aid can ensure many OHKOes. Other than that, the partners of this set generally mirror the partners of the first set.</p>


    [Team Options]
    <p>Stealth Rock and Spikes give Weavile quite a bit of aid, granting it crucial OHKOs on threats such as Lugia and Giratina when employing the Swords Dancer set, along with helping wear down the foe into the KO range of attacks from your other Pokemon. Since Weavile is a very offensive Pokemon, Spikers such as Skarmory and Forretress may not work alongside it (although Forretress's Rapid Spin can be useful), so you are almost obligated to employ Deoxys-S for such a role. Whether you choose to employ a Giratina-O to protect your entry hazards is your prerogative, but it may help, as Giratina-O can be useful as a stallbreaker as long as you have tools to get past Forretress. Weather is often a big deal in Ubers, but Weavile really doesn't mind it, as it is neither helped nor hindered by the sun and the rain. If you choose to use the Swords Dancer, Wobbuffet is almost a necessity, as without it you may never actually use Swords Dance unless a switch is predicted.</p>

    <p>Weavile tends to suffer against Pokemon such as Skarmory, Forretress, Scizor, and Mewtwo (who OHKOes with Aura Sphere if it avoids the Night Slash). Mewtwo can be dealt with by a Scarfer with access to strong physical attacks or Punishment, such as Garchomp or Ho-oh. Surprisingly enough, a Scarfed Ho-Oh deals with almost all the Pokemon that give Weavile trouble, but should you choose to use it, you will need to employ a Forretress (who can also help Weavile with its Rapid Spin). Otherwise, you can simply use a Kyogre to deal with the Steel-types and a Scarfer of your choice to defeat Mewtwo.</p>

    <p>Weavile's defensive presence is nonexistent, since it possesses abysmal defenses and a weakness to Stealth Rock, and Ubers Pokemon usually choose not to employ Psychic-type attacks. Therefore, it would be useless to discuss Weavile's defensive synergy with the its potential teammates.</p>

    <p>Since Skarmory is rarely seen, the Pokemon of most concern to Weavile are Scizor, Forretress, and Mewtwo. Both Scizor and Mewtwo are often partnered with Kyogre, Palkia, and Darkrai, so you should consider using a Choice Scarf Palkia of your own to deal with these threats, knowing that an opposing Palkia may force you to engage in extensive, often risky, prediction. Forretress, on the other hand, is often seen alongside Groudon and Giratina-O, so you should consider using a Kyogre (of whatever set you choose) to deal with these threats. Giratina-O is often defeated by Weavile anyways, provided you can enter the field unharmed and the lizard does not have a Substitute up.</p>

    <p>Weavile is rarely seen on defensive teams, for good reason, as another Choice Scarf user, (Dialga is a popular choice) often fulfills the necessary roles instead. Instead, Weavile fulfills a niche role on offensive teams, checking threats such as Rayquaza, Latios, Latias, and Shaymin-S, and luring in other threats such as Groudon. The sweeper, if set up properly, has frightening potential, but if your setup is interrupted (by, for example, Wobbuffet being killed before it can Encore), then you may be in trouble. For whatever Weavile set you use, you will need to possess good prediction skills to ensure that you come out on top against users such as Scizor and Mewtwo. You may find yourself having to make risky double switches as a result of this, so be prepared.</p>

    [Other Options]
    <p>Very little that has not already been listed is viable on Weavile. It has some interesting options such as Fake Out, Counter, and Taunt, but its true role is either insurance against various threats in the metagame (the Revenge Killer) or as a potential sweeper (the Swords Dancer), and the moves should be chosen to reflect these roles. A Choice Band is viable, but not recommended, as it forces Weavile to switch more frequently, and Weavile suffers from residual damage.</p>

    [EVs]
    <p>The only viable spread for Weavile is 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe and Jolly, to ensure the speed tie with Darkrai should the situation arise. Weavile isn't bulky enough to take even neutral hits, and so EVing the defenses would be wasteful, as would spending points in Weavile's pathetic Special Attack. Also, since Adamant guarantees no crucial KOs over Jolly, using the Attack-boosting nature is inadvisable.</p>

    [Opinion]
    <p>Weavile is probably not as good a sweeper as the standards Rayquaza and Lucario, but it is definitely a solid choice for offensive teams. It's ability to OHKO Lugia in one turn of setup without being killed (Rayquaza cannot do this without Outrage, opening it up for revenge killing), and the fact that it is unfazed by Latios and Latias, make it an excellent Pokemon in its own right. The insurance that Weavile provides against the metagame's top threats, combined with the interesting possibilities of luring in Groudon with Ice Punch and pseudo-trapping Blissey and Lugia with Pursuit, give Weavile a lot of options with which to wreak havoc in Ubers. Just don't overestimate Weavile's power, give it the support it needs, and it will serve you well.</p>

    [Counters]
    <p>Scizor is a perfect counter to Weavile, and can easily take its attacks and OHKO with Bullet Punch or U-turn, the latter of which can return control of the battle to the Scizor user.</p>

    <p>As long as Mewtwo avoids entering on a Night Slash, it can easily outspeed and OHKO Weavile with Aura Sphere. A Swords Danced Life Orb-boosted Ice Shard doesn't even approach a OHKO.</p>

    <p>Faster scarfers, such as Kyogre and Palkia, are excellent ways of dealing with Weavile, easily taking its attacks and OHKOing in return. Dialga works well here too, but must avoid the Low Kick from the Choice Bander.</p>

    <p>Finally, Skarmory and Forretress easily set up entry hazards on Weavile, but Forretress has to watch out for the Swords Dancer unless the bug is using Gyro Ball as an attack.</p>
  2. HD

    HD

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    Great to know someone's starting the OU Pokemon Uber sets!
  3. mtr

    mtr

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    I've implemented your edits. Thanks for the support! I plan to do this for all the OU-in-Ubers pokemon that I am familiar with that someone else isn't already working on.
  4. reachzero

    reachzero the pastor of disaster
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    I've used Swords Dance Weavile with Life Orb before, and it works. It isn't outclassed by Lucario or Rayquaza because it can do certain things that neither one can--such as OHKOing Latias without having a boost. Also, STAB Ice Shard is able to KO Rayquaza unboosted, something neither Lucario nor Rayquaza can boast.
  5. mtr

    mtr

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    Well then, there's no reason not to have it in here. I was merely looking for documentation about its use, but now I have it. Thanks!
  6. Theorymon

    Theorymon You have a fever. I prescribe more dead angels.
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    you might want to mention Ice Punch somehere on CB Weavile, because its your best shot at hurting Groudon. In fact, Ice punch allows Weavile to 2HKO even Impish Groudon!
  7. mtr

    mtr

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    I'll change it to the following:

    Thanks! I'll review your Blissey update, and I'd appreciate it if you could give your insights on Shiftry as well.
  8. xWOLFYx

    xWOLFYx

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    Dragon Dance Rayquaza doesn't use ExtremeSpeed does it?
  9. Erodent

    Erodent

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    Hi mtr, this is a simple proofread.

    Edits are in bold black.

    Ubers Revenge Killer

    Ubers Swords Dancer

    Great job!
  10. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    It can happen, but it's very rare. You could probably mention in Revenge killer set comments that it can switch into Rayquaza as it prepares for a sweep and uses DD or SD, seeing how most Rayquaza use this as their starting move.
  11. franky

    franky
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    [SET]
    name: Ubers Revenge Killer
    move 1: Ice Shard
    move 2: Night Slash
    move 3: Brick Break
    move 4: Pursuit / Ice Punch
    item: Choice Band
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 252 Atk / 6 Def / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p>Weavile’s physical Ice- and Dark-type STAB moves, combined with his access to Ice Shard and Pursuit, make him an excellent revenge killer and trapper in the Ubers tier filled with Dragon- and Psychic-types. Weavile is not the only insurance against top threats such as Rayquaza, Garchomp, and Latios; he can also create sweeping opportunities by using Pursuit or Night Slash to clear out defensively oriented pokemon such as Latias and Blissey, opening the door for Pokemon like Kyogre.</p>

    <p>Ice Shard and Night Slash are givens for the sole purpose of scoring OHKOs on threats such as Dragon Dance Rayquaza, Choice Scarf Garchomp, Latios, Latias, Shaymin-S, and Wobbuffet (with minor prior damage). The final moves are up to what Weavile needs to hit. Brick Break gives you coverage againstDialga and Darkrai, while Pursuit can be useful against Latias, Latios, and Blissey, opening up a possible sweep if your prediction is correct. With Tickle and Encore support from Wobbuffet, you can even break through Lugia fairly easily. A lesser used, but still viable option is Punishment, which may be handy against bulkier Calm Mind users such as Kyogre, Giratina, and Giratina-O. Ice Punch can surprise and 2HKO an incoming Groudon, which can allow Rayquaza to sweep with its counter removed.</p>

    <p>The EVs on this set maximize Speed for the purpose of forcing a Speed tie with a positive-natured Darkrai, should the situation arise. The use of an Adamant nature does not guarantee any OHKOs that a Jolly nature doesn’t, so it is inadvisable.</p>

    <p>The first thing to note with this set is that it is dead weight against Ubers stall teams, as are most revenge killers. Forretress and Skarmory enjoy setting up entry hazards and using Rapid Spin against Weavile. Therefore, it is important to carry stall-breaking Pokemon on the team. Darkrai and Rayquaza have the potential to break through a stall team, or deal serious damage. (ommit last words) Mewtwo, with its access to Taunt, Substitute, and Calm Mind can do the same, while Dialga and Palkia can run mixed sets to a great effect. You will also need a method to defeat Kyogre, Mewtwo, and to a lesser extent Manaphy, who can take Weavile’s hits and defeat it fairly easily. A Choice Specs Palkia can handle Kyogre (barring a Calm Mind variant) and Manaphy. A Kyogre of your own that possesses Calm Mind can handle Mewtwo to a good degree, but watch out for Thunder. (statement contradicts, fixed it) Choice Scarf users such as Palkia and Dialga are also useful against Mewtwo, while Deoxys-A without a Choice Scarf can handle it as well. Blissey is not recommended as a Mewtwo counter, because Mewtwo has access to Taunt to foil Blissey's plan to place status on Mewtwo. (elaborated)</p>

    <p>And although it resides in OU, Scizor is easily the nemesis of Weavile, because it can threaten him with Bullet Punch or U-turn, while Weavile can't do much to Scizor in return. (elaborated) Fortunately, Groudon and Dialga handily defeat it. Watch out for repeated U-turns, though, which can really put a damper on your efforts to maintain offensive momentum. Against an adroit Scizor user, Weavile will need to employ aggressive prediction and use double-switching to ensure that you come out on top. If using Pursuit, Wobbuffet support in the form of Tickle and Encore can be helpful to ensure that you break through walls such as Lugia and Blissey.</p>


    ---
    Edits in Bold, comments in parethesis. Alot of your material lacks explanation as it needs to be more information for weaker Uber players like myself. I added some things that needed to be elaborated, feel free to reword it if ya like. A couple of wierd wordings and using 'you' but other than that, pretty good
  12. mtr

    mtr

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    Thank you guys for editing this, and I will go through this in Physics tomorrow (I love college...)

    To the mods: Do I need to do a whole Team Options and Counters thing? It seems rather redundant with the stuff I've put on the sets, but I guess I'll get to it if I need to.
  13. JabbaTheGriffin

    JabbaTheGriffin Stormblessed
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    Yeah you need all those sections. If you feel it creates redundancy then maybe pull some lines out of the analysis itself and throw them into the sections at the bottom.
  14. ΩDonut

    ΩDonut don't glaze me bro
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    HGSS tutors gave Weavile Low Kick, which should definitely replace Brick Break. 120 power against most ubers (except Darkrai, and even so it has 80 power compared to BB's 75), which makes it more powerful than its STAB attacks against Palkia.

    Does 52.48%-61.88% to 252 HP \ 0 Def Dialga without a CB, and with a CB is guaranteed OHKO 0 \ 0 Dialga after SR damage.
  15. Blue_Tornado

    Blue_Tornado

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    I don't think we're supposed to add HGSS moves yet, as that'll cuase a bit of a mix-up until SB2 is out...
  16. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    I feel this wording is better, as Lugia is easily OHKOed with Pursuit after Tickle and Encore from the unescapable Wobbuffet.

    I would move this sentence to the team options paragraph. Tickle + Encore Wobbuffet has great synergy with Weavile. You mention that Weavile is deadweight against stall teams. But together, they beat Blissey and the aforementioned Lugia with ease. Wobbuffet is also great at removing Scarf users that can easily revenge kill Weavile and may even be able to safely switch in on Weavile.


    If this is the case, we should wait till we can put it up before uploading this onto the site. It is obviously better than Brick Break, and it is a must-have on both Weavile sets.
  17. mtr

    mtr

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    I think that by the time the site framework is built to accomodate OU and Ubers sets, HGSS will be out, so I will go ahead and edit the stuff, waiting until later to finish off the Low Kick part.

    EDIT: implemented franky's edits, will soon merge them with Erodents.

    I said Dragon Dance Rayquaza, because the DD and SD sets have very different checks. For example, BulkyDon and ScarfKia beats a DDRay, but they both lose to SDRay. Lugia can beat an SDRay, but is OHKO'd by a DDRay.
  18. ΩDonut

    ΩDonut don't glaze me bro
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    I remember reading that Colin was already in the process of implementing the HGSS moves on Shoddy. (They're implemented on-site, at least.)

    Besides, if we weren't supposed to add HGSS moves there's probably be a visible announcement for that.
  19. mtr

    mtr

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    Bumping to say that I'm finally done with everything, and the other parts are awaiting your edits.

    When HGSS moves are allowed, I'll just Ctrl-F Brick Break and replace it with Low Kick. No one ever uses Brick Break to defeat Dual Screen teams anyways, so the point is moot.
  20. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    Low Kick also needs to replace Brick Break everywhere.

    But otherwise this analysis is pretty much complete. Good work!
  21. mtr

    mtr

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    Thanks for editing this. I can't put the final touch-ups on this atm, but I will be cleaning house on all my edits before I leave for India on Dec 28th.
  22. zzzzzzzzzzz

    zzzzzzzzzzz

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    In order to use SD Weavile effectively you need(all required):
    1: Wobb support
    2: SR/spikes support
    3. Ice Punch to ohko Groudon, otherwise it will wall you easily. Dialga is not that huge problem because it doesn't pack enough defense most of the time (unless it is BU)

    With Jolly it really lacks power to do anything significant...

    I think that SD Weavile requires TOO MUCH support to be effective. When I was using him the only thing it really did was picking Outraging dragons
  23. mtr

    mtr

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    A valid concern. But a better way to go about this is asking "how much do I need to go out of my way to support Weavile"? Stealth Rock is on all teams anyways, and I honestly forgot what KOes Spikes helps you gain, if any. Using Ice Punch or having the rest of your team take out Groudon isn't a very arduous task, seeing as it lacks reliable recovery. Wobbuffet is an excellent Pokemon in his own right, and helps in killing Scarfers anyways, which is another concern when trying to sweep with Weavile.

    I probably should emphasize that scaring off Latias/Latios/Blissey can be another good way to secure a setup. Weavile is good, and a unique sweeper, just not the greatest thing in the current metagame.
  24. Phantom_IV

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    "Ice Shard is a necessity to avoid taking an Extremespeed from the likes of Rayquaza or Lucario. "
    I don't think you'll be using Ice Shard on Lucario.
  25. Colonel M

    Colonel M JESUS BIRD HAS RETURNED
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    Looking at this, might want to put Low Kick in now.

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