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Weavile

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by NixHex, Dec 15, 2012.

  1. NixHex

    NixHex what is béisbol
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    [​IMG]
    After being inspired by this post by Tobes in the Teambuilding thread, I gained a new fascination for Weavile. I have added one to my team and more often than not, it is my savior. Instead of writing a big post about its rocky history, I'll get right to the point. Weavile is totally anti-metagame, outspeeding tons of threats, mainly Dragons, and picking off Scarfers with its priority Ice Shard. Here is my favorite set:

    Weavile @ Life Orb
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
    Jolly Nature
    - Ice Punch
    - Ice Shard
    - Low Kick
    - Pursuit

    With a blazing fast base 125 Speed, Weavile outspeeds almost every relevant Pokemon in OU, only outsped by only Meloetta-P, Aerodactyl, Jolteon, and Ninjask, while tying with the incredibly rare and totally outclassed Swellow. Let's take a look at the fast and scary threads that it actually DOES outspeed:

    • Tornadus-T (OHKO with Ice Punch)
    • Alakazam (OHKO with Ice Punch or unboosted Pursuit if Sash is broken)
    • Dugtrio (OHKOes two times over with Ice Punch if Sash is broken)
    • Starmie (2HKOed by unboosted Pursuit, OHKOed if it flees)
    • Gengar (62% to OHKO, guaranteed with Stealth Rock)
    • Espeon (Pursuit guarantees 2HKO on 252/4, 43% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock on rarer 4/0)
    • Latios (OHKOed by Ice Punch)
    • Latias (guaranteed 2HKO, or OHKO after Stealth Rock on 252/4, 43% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock on rarer 4/0)
    • Keldeo (not much here but it can revenge kill weakened non-Scarf versions)
    • Terrakion (OHKOed by Low Kick)
    • Choice Scarf Landorus-I, Garchomp, and Salamence (OHKOed by Ice Shard)
    Weavile has some big problems, though. Its low Base Power attacks are a let down. Notice how conditional all of those OHKOes are; Stealth Rock must be up (not a huge problem, but still something you must consider) for its Ice moves to do their job, while Pursuit only gets notable OHKOes if the Pokemon flees. It's also priority weak and is relatively easy to switch into. Low Kick is also conditional with variable Base Power, but OHKOing Tyranitar is fun. Basically, if Weavile cannot muster a OHKO, it will end up dead in the process. It can't really do much to Scizor, as Bullet Punch is an easy OHKO, or your opponent can just click U-turn while Weavile switches. Conkeldurr can just use Bulk Up while taking very little from Weavile's attacks. Jirachi also man handles it, getting free turns to Calm Mind up, paralyze with Thunder Wave / Body Slam, or just Iron Head it to death with Choice Scarf.


    What are some of your favorite Weavile sets? What have been your shortcomings while using it? How do you counter it most effectively?
  2. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    its just so damn frail. it's one of those excellent on paper, terrible in practice mons. sr + spike weakness sucks and weavile has some hard counters that are usually teammates of teams running these offensive mons.

    from a practicality standpoint, you'll almost never be used ice shard to revenge anything because no one is going to set up dds with a dragon when they can see a weavile on the other team. i suppose it's useful for preventing that ahead of time, but really, if you can't pursuit for serious damage, weavile becomes more a liability.

    scizor, politoed, rotom-w, forretress, skarm, jirachi are all common teammates of anyone using the things you posted that weavile excels vs. if you can manage to keep sr off for a long time, then weavile can have use but otherwise, its only purpose is to pursuit things (espeon/latios/zam/gengar). and honestly, id rather just use something that can switch into some attacks like a ttar for that stuff because gengar can sub, zam carries sash anyway, espeon and latios can both really hurt you with hp fighting or anything that isn't psychic (from latios) if your name is weavile.
  3. BlankZero

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    The Choice Band set might alleviate some of those win conditions (ie, rocks needed) and with Weavilles base speed, it allows a super fast choice band.

    Weavilles is also probably the best Deo-D counter bar none. Faster Taunt, can destroy it with Pursuit or even better, night slash. It's a bit of a glass cannon, but I prefer it as an anti lead in comparison to things like Aerodactyl.
  4. DrunkDemon

    DrunkDemon

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    Weavile can be difficult to use, but it's niche is extremely useful in this metagame. Unfortunately it's STABs are only useful against a portion of the metagame and depending on the match up it won't be too effective. But when it works, it really does. I've found some of its best partners are Fighting-types, Keldeo and Breloom especially. In fact, it's probably the most effective partner for SubCM Keldeo there is. Ice and Dark moves are often the types Fighting mons run to take on Ghost, Psychic, and Flying-types, and when it's not possible to use those coverage moves, Weavile is incredibly handy. Because it goes so well with Fighting Pokemon I often don't even bother to use Low Kick, opting for Night Slash instead. This helps Weavile a lot with taking on ballsy Jellicent and the like.

    Weavile's niche is also cool on Deoxys-D hyper offense. Trapping Espeon, Xatu, and Starmie is invaluable for getting and maintaining Deo's hazards, while Ice Shard can revenge-kill the Thunder Wave-immune Pokemon such as Landorus and Thundurus-T that set up on Deoxys with impunity. It does unfortunately increase the Scizor weakness, but having a lure such as HP Fire Gengar or SR Chomp solves that problem easily.
  5. Reymedy

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    I just want to point out that the spread is not good in my opinion.

    232 Speed allows you to outspeed Tornadus-T which is all you need, giving him 252 would be only useful to win speed ties.
    Moreover, you better put these 4 HP in SpD for the Life Orb recoil, I know that you probably put it to be able to come 4 times on the field with SR, but considering that you have LO, this is only useful if you never use a move with Weavile.

    So to me the correct spread is 252 Atk / 32 SpD / 224 Spe.

    I love Weavile by the way, he's perfect at dismantling offensive teams made of paper pokemons. Moreover, he forms a great core with Deoxys-D and Gengar.
  6. Wizarus

    Wizarus

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    It just can't stop Scizor from switching in and spamming U-turn. You lose so much momentum when this happens.
  7. BlankZero

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    That's why Gengar pairs so well with it. 4x bug resistance means you can set up a sub on it while it goes to Superpower your Weavile.
  8. RabidChipmunk

    RabidChipmunk

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    I doubt Scizor would ever Superpower a Weavile when they can tell their opponent has a Gengar in the wings and Bullet Punch OHKO's Weavile anyway, while also massively denting Gengar.

    That said though, I swear by Weavile's effectiveness, especially on hyper offense. He forms my anti-spinner core with Gengar, as Gengar can deal with every spinner in OU except for Starmie, who Weavile dispatches with glee. Weavile also deals with fast dragons either locked into Outrage or ready to switch out after a Draco, and he also deals extremely well with some of the metagames most overpowered threats (Tornadus-T, Rock Polish SF Landorus). As a bonus, it also handles Espeon and Xatu, who frustrate my Deoxys-D to no end.
  9. NixHex

    NixHex what is béisbol
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    edit: somewhat ninja'd by RapidChipmunk
    I don't think that's his point. If it uses Superpower hoping to hit Weavile and it isn't Choiced, why wouldn't Scizor just use Bullet Punch to prevent this from happening? Personally, if I were using a non-Choiced Scizor, I'd just use Swords Dance since Weavile is basically giving it a free turn to boost and just annihilate Gengar altogether with +2 LO Bullet Punch.

    Also adding onto what kd24 said about its frailty and stressing a point I made in the OP, Weavile's inability to do much damage to set uppers like Scizor and Jirachi as well as hazard layers like Ferro, Forry, and Skarm (assuming you aren't running Taunt) gives them free turns to do whatever they need to do. Also, Dragonite with Multiscale intact can actually set up while Weavile uses Ice Shard and then just kill it with ExtremeSpeed. Here are the calcs that spell Weavile's doom:
    252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite (Multiscale intact): 53.25 - 62.84%
    252 Atk Dragonite ExtremeSpeed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 96.19 - 113.49%

    Even though you can't OHKO without Ice Punch, my point is that Weavile cannot revenge kill Dragonite with Ice Shard, and will almost always die before it has a chance to do anything.
  10. Reymedy

    Reymedy The Black Sun.
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    I don't understand your Calc, I'm pretty sure there is a mistake somewhere :\
    252Atk Dragonite (+Atk) ExtremeSpeed vs 0HP/0Def Weavile (Neutral): 49% - 58% (140 - 165 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 25% chance to 2HKO.
    252Atk +1 Dragonite (+Atk) ExtremeSpeed vs 0HP/0Def Weavile (Neutral): 74% - 87% (209 - 246 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    So if SR are not up, you can revenge the Dragonite ;p
    252Atk +1 Dragonite (+Atk) ExtremeSpeed vs 0HP/32Def Weavile (Neutral): 70% - 83% (199 - 235 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    This is when these 32 EVs that nobody seems to care about come handy, even if in my opinion you should put them in SpD mainly for that :
    252SpAtk Life Orb Starmie (Neutral) Hydro Pump vs HP/32SpDef Weavile (Neutral): 83% - 98% (234 - 276 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    But they are also useful to survive a ScarTios Draco Metor at full health. To not be 3HKO'd by Scald from Tentacruel, and not 2HKO'd under Rain, to not be 3HKO'd by Jellicent scald etc...

    For the Dragonite case, you should just ALWAYS have SR and some Spikes when you play Weavile, else he won't be so useful.

    And I don't know why there is Ferrothorn in the least of spikes that can't be hurt by Weavile,
    252Atk Life Orb Weavile (Neutral) Low Kick vs 252HP/88Def Ferrothorn (+Def): 50% - 60% (178 - 212 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    A 2HKO on Ferrothorn for a Physical Sweeper is something quite decent in my opinion.
  11. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte Where's the soul in soldier on?
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    Weavile is a tough pokemon to use, back when I was toying with NixHex's Sun Stall team I found that it needs to use SE moves in order to kill the things it can- which of course means that Night Slash is a cool option to use over maybe Low Kick or Pursuit. It hits a lot of psychic types hard, including Latias/Espeon, as well as Gengar, Latios, and the rarer Frosslass.

    I think that the only reason Weavile is any good is because it is able to counter almost all of the fast threats in OU- I mean seriously, almost anything with over 100 Speed can be OHKO'd by a STAB SE move, and some of the lower speed monsters such as Dnite / Landorus-T can also be handled easily. It's all in the typing- as Dark / Ice hits many prominent pokemon quite hard.
  12. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

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    Has anyone reliably used the Swords Dance set in OU?

    Dark/Ice/Fighting sounds like it'd be great coverage, in theory.
  13. EdgeHead

    EdgeHead

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    I would think that would be outclassed by Toxicroak
  14. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
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    croak and weavile are hardly comparable - one is a slow sweeper that abuses unique typing + rain-enhanced bulk (and sucker punch) while the other is without a doubt a fast and frail glass cannon.

    either way though, SDvile is a hard fit in OU. you're hit hard by many forms of priority (mach punch and bullet punch both flatten you) which makes you fairy easy to check even without a scarfer. but more importantly, weavile is too frail to be worth setting up at all in OU, much like nasty plot deoxys-A in ubers. you're much better off just throwing out an attack than trying to take a boost, only to be hit hard and forced out or killed. it has the same problems as 4 attacks utility attacker weavile, except it checks fewer things (no prio + no pursuit) in exchange for a shot at a very unlikely sweep
  15. Reymedy

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    This is really hard in my opinion. Mainly because Weavile is really weak, and because he's weak to the most common priorities in Bullet Punch and Mach Punch.
    Maybe it can work, it would look like Lucario in my opinion, if I had to make a comparison, in faster, but with less priorities and less strong moves but better coverage.

    I'll give it a try though.
  16. Arcticblast

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    I guess I'll go ahead and post this set I used once:
    [​IMG]
    Weavile @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 6 HP
    Jolly Nature
    - Fake Out
    - Ice Punch
    - Low Kick
    - Ice Shard

    No Dark moves, I know. THis was made to fill very specific roles on the team it was used for - take out Dragons so my own Dragons could sweep, try to take out SR setters early on, and cause a general ruckus. This was before I realized how well it could check Pokemon like Starmie, Latias and Reuniclus though...
  17. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    I soooo wish I had had this set about 10 minutes ago against Thunderblunder :P Using it though, with Ice Punch swapped for Pursuit.
  18. HardCore

    HardCore

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    In many scenarios Life Orb Weavile would even be decent with a substitute. I know it kills weavile a bit faster but if Pokemon that can tank Weavile are eliminated Ice Shard, Night Slash, and Low Kick\ Focus Punch can go a long way. The Pokemon that need to be eliminated before this is possible for Weavile to abuse sub are Skarmory, Forretress, Bronzong, Jirachi, and Scizor. Weavile can do significant damage to Jirachi (possibly crit), so under a substitute it could prove to be a decent clean up sweeper that gets the 2HKO necessary via sub. There are definitely several Pokemon Weavile forces out so getting the first sub isn't hard at all. Weavile partnered with magnezone could prove to be a great combination.
  19. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
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    Accelgor and Crobat also outspeed it btw

    Weavile is really sort of a wierd Pokemon - simply put, it can do a lot of work against the opponent's speedy Pokemon, but at the same time, it really fails against the rest of the tier. Truthfully, barring random Choice Scarfs, Weavile either destorys the opponent or the opponent destroys Weavile - there is almost no middle ground. In addition Weavile has some major 4MMS in my experience - I often want to run Night Slash, but oftetimes that just can't happen. If I run that, then I cannot use the four other moves it has that are really good...

    Although Bulky Steels and Fighting-types (especially if they are scarfed) are pains, Weavile is still a useful Pokemon at taking down certain Pokemon, which I gotta admit is pretty nice to have. Even then, however, it gets a lot of competition from Mamoswine, who is slower but has a brutal STAB Eartquake and it more powerful. It also actually can survive a move occasionally. This is especially a problem because Weavile enjoys killing off the dangerous +1 Dragons, but there speed is irrelavent. However, getting to beat Tornadus-T, Gengar, the Latis, and Espeon, as well as not getting screwed over by Terrakion, is very nice indeed, but Weavile is overall a huge mixed bag to me.
  20. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
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    i was thinking about substitute vile but i see a few problems off the bat. firstly, you're probably only gonna get one shot at the sub in the entire game. SR weakness + life orb + sub means your health will be slipping away fast. after performing the substitute play once successfully you will be at less than half your health. another SR switch in means you will not be able to use sub again, perhaps not even attack.

    this ties in with another problem - if you could predict your opponent was going to give you the substitute, you could have pursuited them and, against most offensive pokemon, vile's stab neutral doubled pursuit will be an OHKO. yeah that requires some godly predictions, but that's part of the game when using pursuit =/ putting your opp one mon down is an immediate return. if they stay in and attack you as you sub up, sure you've bought yourself one turn, but you're a quarter down on health and you have to make the same gamble again - pursuit them or hit them expecting them to stay in and attack a second time? if you go and substitute again, chances are weavile will not even be coming in a second time; you'll have half your health or less. it's made even harder by the fact that substitute forces you to sacrifice an attacking move; there's not a lot of wiggle room on the moveset when you already need pursuit+ice stab to even justify using weavile in OU.

    on top of that, there are a lot more things that wall vile than just fighting-neutral steels. a lot of generic bulky waters can go toe to toe with it. just as one random example,
    252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 122-146 (31.77 - 38.02%) -- 0.63% chance to 3HKO
    most of them don't have recovery so the damage will add up, but it'll add up even faster on weavile, who's packing SR weakness, life orb and possibly your substitute. the substitute makes life a bit easier if your opp switches to one of these pokemon since they can't hit you right away, but you're not gaining much in the exchange. you can't just take out steels, sub up and start squeezing most offense teams - weavile has a lot more counters than that.


    i don't really see any alternative moves like substitute or swords dance opening up new directions for OU weavile. they don't really change how it fares against the things it's used to beat, and if you're concerned about anything other than those things, you really shouldn't be using weavile at all
  21. zerohero

    zerohero

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    has anyone think of try expert belt him to take of some of life orb recoil to keep him alive for more. i was just thinking about it since he is only useful for either his ice, dark moves or random low kicks. i tried it on PS and its still able to preform his revenge killer/anti meta role just fine.
  22. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    Expert Belt to give you even less damage output vs anything that resists/neutral? Seems pretty bad, why not just go Leftovers to survive an extra Stealth Rock switch. I don't think you need the Expert Belt boost vs any of your potential kills either which is the only place EBelt boosts. Even Focus Sash seems better.
  23. alkinesthetase

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    you're not gonna survive anyway, you're a weavile. just go all in and life orb it. you can even run band if you're truly a prediction god and like never choose the wrong move. i could see sash being useful here and there - for example suppose you expect tornadus-T to switch out of you but it gets ballsy and hurricanes you instead. you live and get a second chance to hit it - still pretty niche though, since if you mess up with a neutral pursuit, you're probably not gonna get the 2hko (especially since you aren't running LO).
  24. zerohero

    zerohero

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    i wouldnt go as far as focus sash since its very easily broke with hazards.

    I was just giving a option since we all know any bulky water or steel type will just switch in to sponge the attack. so why waste the recoil for lil damage. ill say if you are looking for extra power choice band is the way to go but you will be lock in a move.
  25. Wizarus

    Wizarus

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    I see where you're getting at. If you don't have a spinner, recoil can be a problem, especially if you want Weavile to tank that weak resisted/neutral special attack. And let's be honest, SD Weavile with Ice Punch as the main attacking move, and Night Slash as secondary coverage is terrible in OU.

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