1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Weird Fish

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Jimbon, Oct 7, 2012.

  1. Jimbon

    Jimbon FAKE TRAIN
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    493
    WEIRD FISH
    [​IMG]
    Introduction:

    Hello, Smogon! After the release of B/W2, I convinced myself I would make a somewhat decent team, that was noot only good but fun to play with. I had a lot of trouble adapting to the metagame, and finding new and under the radar ways to deal with the prominent weather teams that had increased immensely in popularity. Every team I made was either Rain or Sun weak, and I went through about 15 variations of the same team before I finally arrived at one conclusion. Out of all the viable lower tiered Pokemon, there was something that stood out and had a special niche against the aforementioned Rain Teams. I stumbled upon this weird creature, called Lanturn. The combination of superb typing and an even better ability meant that Lanturn had an easy time in OU. Being one of the very few Pokemon that could stand up to the combination of Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T and Genesect under Rain was something that set it apart from every other Pokemon I had used or seen. I tried it for a couple matches, and it worked incredibly. I was torn upon a set for Lanturn, as it had so much potential and after a lot of testing, I arrived at the conclusion that a ResTalk set would be best, being able to beat the aforementioned trio and even check Keldeo and Politoed to an extent.

    Now that I had a Pokemon to base a team around, I just needed the correct support. Lanturn was a Pokemon that performed well against Rain, but Rain wasn't all I was facing. While it was an obnoxious playstyle to face, there were also Sun teams that essentially made Lanturn useless. I needed to add support for Lanturn so I actually had a chance against other playstyles that weren't Rain. Stall is near unviable in this metagame due to how offensive everything is, so I didn't want to go down that route. Offense on the other hand, was a pretty interesting concept. Lanturn forms as a phenomenal defensive pivot against teams using genies or Keldeo, and I could easily grab momentum with Lanturn's slower Volt Switch. This would pave the way for something to come in and start firing off powerful moves. I added Keldeo, Terrakion and Genesect, together forming the Offensive core my team needed. Keldeo could just hit stuff hard on either side of the spectrum, while Terrakion was a great wallbreaker. Genesect was also a great late game sweeper while getting free switches into either of Terrakion and Keldeo. It was at this point I realised I was a little Sun weak, despite the mons I added. Sheer Force Landorus was a cool Pokemon I wanted to try, and with a Rock Polish up it mauled the Sun Teams using Genesect + Chlorophyll abuser who caused problems for the rest of my team. Finally, I needed a lead, as well as Stealth Rock. I came to the conclusion of Mew, but not just any set. I chose a much more offensive set than the norm, aiming to grab a kill as well as Stealth Rock which is ideal for an offensive team. I wanted momentum right from the start and needed to prevent Stealth Rock for obvious reasons. The underrated Mew set caught a lot of people off guard.

    I tested the team extensively on PS! and on PO a little aswell. It seemed like many people weren't prepared for Lanturn, and had no idea how to play around it. People would often keep using Hurricane or Focus Blast against Lanturn, only for me to restore all my health back. Combine that with a 2/3 chance of pulling Scald / Volt Switch, meaning a potential burn or momentum respectively and it really caused a lot of problems for a lot of players using Rain. I think the main thing that allowed me to win a lot of my matches was the surprise factor of the team. Users who I faced more than once had a good idea of what to expect, which heavily deterred away from the effectiveness of the team. Despite this, it is still a fun team to use, and definitely the most solid B/W2 team I've made thus far. Offense was something I never really got the hang of, and I always stuck to balanced or stall teams. This team alone has really taught me how to play offense well, and also testing some new and cool sets I can use for other teams. Overall, it really goes to show how effective some Pokemon can be due to how the metagame is, and some Pokemon have a certain niche that allows them to singlehandely beat some archetypes of team.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Under the Microscope:

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Mew @ Normal Gem
    Trait: Synchronize
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Taunt
    - Tailwind
    - Explosion

    Every Offensive team needs a reliable lead, and this team is no exception. Mew provides the team with Stealth Rock, a necessity on every team to grab potential OHKOs or 2HKOs which can change matches. While most Mew sets tend to be performing a defensive role whether it be stallbreaker or part of a Baton Pass team, this Mew set goes against that, often surprising opponents. Mew is a fantastic lead for an offensive team, being able to get up Stealth Rock against most common leads. It has the bulk to live Scarf Politoed hits, while being able to get up Stealth Rock. One of the only common situations where Mew cannot get up Stealth Rock is against Genesect, where the 4 Def EVs come in handy. I'd much rather switch into a +1 Bug Buzz than a +1 U-Turn as Genesect does not get a free switch into whatever I switch into. Another situation where Mew cannot get up Stealth Rock is against +Spe Deoxys-D, which is why I am considering using Jolly over Adamant.As for Mew's other moves, Taunt shuts down opposing hazard setters. This is important because I do not have a user of Rapid Spin, so I'll need to prevent hazards at all costs. It's also great against 'mons that try to stat boost, most notably Cloyster, Dragonite and Volcarona, who can be Taunted and then Exploded on. What differentiates this from most leads is Explosion. Normal Gem Explosion with Adamant is incredibly strong. This is probably the main reason I try to keep Mew around after I have Stealth Rock up. It easily eliminates 'mons such as Latias and Celebi who stand in the way of Keldeo, while Explosion does around 94% to 252 HP / 172 Def Gliscor, meaning I can easily revenge it with Terrakion. Removing one of Keldeo's / Terrakion's counters can easily mean the difference between a sweep, and being walled. Against stall teams, it's amazing removing Tentacruel as it tries to spin, leaving your opponent open against Terrakion / Keldeo. It's also good because it's not expected, so it's not likely your opponent will switch into their bulky Steel / Ghost, especially after seeing Taunt. Normal Gem Explosion already does around 35-45% to Ferrothorn, putting it into KO range for Keldeo. The final move is Tailwind, which initially started out as a filler option, but I slowly started to see the effectiveness of it. In some scenarios where I have a good lead matchup, I can Stealth Rock, then Tailwind then Explosion, and switch into anything else while killing something with Explosion. This is especially important against Sun which is one of my worst matchups, and Landorus can effectively kill everything on Standard Sun with Stealth Rock up. It also gives Keldeo and Terrakion +2 for a couple turns, giving me a lot more freedom to beat faster mons, namely Sand Rush / Chlorophyll abusers and faster Scarfers.

    --

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Lanturn (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Volt Absorb
    EVs: 36 HP / 252 Def / 220 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Scald
    - Sleep Talk
    - Rest
    - Volt Switch

    Introducing the MVP of the team, Lanturn. Lanturn was what this team was made around, so you can be sure it's something special. Lanturn has a certain niche in this metagame, given the prevalence of Rain Teams in the metagame. Offensive Politoed, Genesect, Tornadus-T and Thundurus-T are all massive threats, and can easily rip through teams without a designated wall. Lanturn mitigates all of these problems, and more. Given Lanturn's amazing typing, it has a number of great resistances. These include Ice and Water, as well as an Electric immunity thanks to Volt Absorb. This means Lanturn can easily switch in on all of the aforementioned threats easily, and with ResTalk it can continually do this. Thanks to Mew preventing hazards against a lot of the common leads, Lanturn has no problem switching in and out time after time. Another great thing about Lanturn is how easily it gels with the rest of the team. Given that Lanturn has Rest + Sleep Talk + Volt Switch, it can potentially Volt Switch out of anything that switches in. For example, low health Lanturn vs Tornadus-T. Tornadus Hurricanes, Lanturn survives at low health and uses Rest. Lanturn is at 100% and Tornadus-T is walled. Tornadus-T switches out into something that can hope to set up against Lanturn, Lanturn Sleep Talks a Volt Switch and goes into Keldeo or Terrakion to revenge. It's that simple, and between Rest, Scald and Volt Switch there's a likelihood you're gonna pull either Scald or Volt Switch, meaning a potential burn / rain boosted STAB Scald, or momentum in your favour. It's surprisingly hard to beat Lanturn. Rest means it doesn't care about status or hazards, and with an already brilliant HP stat, Lanturn can afford to go mixed with it's defences. It's a lot of fun to use, and something that separates this team from any other I've made. Lanturn beats a lot of Keldeo's checks (Tornadus-T, Genesect, Thundurus-T), while Volt Switching out of Celebi, Latias and Jellicent as they inevitably switch in. Lanturn fills the role of a defensive pivot that can continually switch in, and without it, this team would simply lose to Rain every time.

    --

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Keldeo @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Surf
    - Hydro Pump
    - Hidden Power [Ghost]
    - Secret Sword

    Ah yes, Specs Keldeo. This is probably my Keldeo set to use, and is arguably one of the best wallbreakers in the game. If hazards are up, Keldeo gets a kill on something should it predict correctly. While Sub Calm Mind and Life Orb 4 Attacks Keldeo are certainly potent, they don't provide the sheer power Specs Keldeo does, and it is devastating how much work this thing does. Keldeo is one of the few Pokemon that can break through it's checks. For example, with Stealth Rock up, Latias, Celebi and Jellicent cannot switch in. These are the three main answers to any variant of Keldeo but all are 2HKOd with Stealth Rock up. This is just a testament to how powerful this thing is. It's also a great backup against Stall. Surf / Secret Sword beats a lot of common Stall cores, namely SkarmBliss, while also being able to hit most physical + special walls for a lot of damage. Under Rain, this thing becomes even more deadly. It 2HKOs everything, I'm not kidding. It's a lot easier to deal with when you know the set, but it's not that simple. You're not going to freely switch your Skarmory into a Keldeo, which is why it is so hard to play around. Your checks are turned into liabilities and given how little actually deals with Keldeo, it's easy to play around. Keldeo is also the main abuser of Mew's Tailwind, whilst under Rain something is gonna die. Keldeo also has pretty nice bulk, given how hard it hits. It is not OHKOd by a Latias Psyshock or a Genesect Thunderbolt, which is nice because these are two of the few common answers to Keldeo. I'm really surprised how little I've seen of this set, and how few people actually prepare for Keldeo. You might have something to revenge it, but that isn't stopping Keldeo. Every time something switches in, you're at risk of losing something. It's a perfect 'mon for any offensive team and with Lanturn being able to handle or Volt Switch out of all of Keldeo's main checks, it becomes even more potent as a sweeper in that respect.

    --

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Genesect @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Download
    EVs: 112 Atk / 144 SAtk / 252 Spe
    Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - U-turn
    - Bug Buzz
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunderbolt

    With every team I make, I always seem to come back to this same set. Scarf Genesect is without a doubt, the best scouter and maybe even the best scarfer in the tier. It performs so many needed roles, being able to reliably revenge Dragons, being able to force switches, to switch into stray Draco Meteors and Ice Shards. Genesect is a fallback revenge killer if Keldeo or Landorus cannot pull through. A great stat spread plus download means Genesect can hit really hard. Combine this with Genesect's brilliant movepool and you simply cannot know Genesect's moveset until you've seen all 4 moves. This makes it even harder when trying to switch into Genesect, as your Gyarados may risk a +1 Thunderbolt. As for the four moves I've chosen, I do think these are the most effective moves on Genesect. BoltBeam + Bug Buzz is enough for being able to revenge what you need to, while Ferrothorn or Forretress rarely stay in risking a Flamethrower, and are 2HKO'd by Genesect's coverage moves. Like every other Genesect set, the main focus of the set is U-Turn. I've decided to pump up the Atk EVs on Genesect to add some additional power into the U-Turn. 112 Atk is all I need to OHKO 252 HP Latias which is important because it outspeeds both Keldeo and Landorus while being able to 2HKO both and live a hit from both. This is great because I either force Latias to switch racking up more Stealth Rock damage on whatever switches in, or I OHKO Latias paving the way for Landorus or Keldeo to sweep. In general, Genesect is just a great Scarfer, being able to revenge so many threats makes it a great candidate and Pokemon to consider for any team.

    --

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Terrakion @ Rock Gem
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SAtk)
    - Substitute
    - Stone Edge
    - Close Combat
    - Swords Dance

    Every team needs a dedicated wallbreaker, and alongside Keldeo, Terrakion makes sure this is done. Terrakion was added to patch up a stall weakness, as very very little wants to switch into either a +2 Close Combat, or even a more powerful Rock Gem boosted Stone Edge. Like Keldeo, if Terrakion can set up safely, it will net a kill. This is surprisingly easy with Terrakion, given that Substitute allows it to block any attempts to status Terrakion, while it can boost up. This is especially important because after a Swords Dance Terrakion can break through it's counters, just like Keldeo. Gliscor and Slowbro will not appreciate a +2 Rock Gem Stone Edge, while Skarmory can only hope to Whirlwind Terrakion out as a +2 Close Combat does more than Skarmory's Roost is recovery. For a sweeper to be able to beat it's counters after 1 turn is exceptional, as it heavily limits what you can safely switch into Terrakion to beat it. This is very important on an offensive team where you can easily rack up that extea 12% on your opponent as they try to beat Terrakion. +2 Rock Gem Stone Edge OHKOs Gliscor after Stealth Rock, showing just how powerful Terrakion is. Terrakion and Keldeo together are a phenomenal pair -- together, they break through eachother's counters, making them almost unplayable if you can predict well. Terrakion is also another prime example of a Pokemon taking advantage of Genesect's U-Turn to get free switches. For example, Genesect vs Celebi, Genesect U-Turns out as Celebi switches into Heatran, Genesect U-Turns into Terrakion. Terrakion vs Heatran, Terrakion Substitutes as Heatran switches into Celebi, Terrakion Swords Dances as Celebi breaks Terrakions Substitute. From here, something will die which can be one part of a stall core that will make it much easier for other team members to sweep.

    --

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Landorus (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sheer Force
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spe | 30 Atk / 30 Def
    Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
    - Rock Polish
    - Earth Power
    - Focus Blast
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    Arguably one of the most potent and destructive lategame sweepers in this metagame, Landorus completes the team as the late game sweeper, and was added to the team to help with Sun. Landorus benefits incredibly from Mew's Stealth Rock, as Standard Sun cannot compete with Landorus if Stealth Rock is up. One free turn is all Landorus needs to set up in order to wreck havoc. After a Rock Polish, Landorus mauls Chlorophyll abusers trying to outpace it, while hitting everything else hard with its amazing coverage. You can't hope to switch into Landorus safely, as you really don't know all of Landorus' coverage moves. This is just another reason why Tailwind is so good on Mew, essentially giving Landorus a Rock Polish for a couple turns. It's damn hard to switch into Landorus if you don't have a Rotom or a Latias, as Landorus hits so hard with Sheer Force. While Modest would be appreciated for the extra power, Timid is there to avoid being outsped by Sub CM Jirachi and other positive base 100s. There are few Pokemon who can just begin sweeping after one turn, but Landorus is one that does it better than most. It fills a much needed role as a late game sweeper, and I don't send it out until I'm sure it can sweep. Landorus benefits from the work of Genesect, as Genesect removes all common answers to Sheer Force Landorus, namely Celebi and Latias. Once these are gone, it's damn easy to sweep. Landorus is incredibly anti metagame right now, and with a couple great immunities it finds a lot of easy switch-ins. Being able to switch in against choiced Rotom-W or even opposing Landorus is great, because like I said, that one turn is all you need.

    Threat List:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] (Sun Teams) - Sun Teams with Venusaur can be a little annoying. Usually I try to Tailwind + Explode with Mew as they set up, or get in Landorus safely beforehand, but that's really all I have for it. After a Growth, Venusaur can sweep pretty easily but if it has Hidden Power [Ice] it cannot OHKO Genesect. I haven't actually been swept by a Venusaur as of yet, but I certainly came very close to being swept a couple times.

    Importable:
    Importable (open)
    Mew @ Normal Gem
    Trait: Synchronize
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Taunt
    - Tailwind
    - Explosion

    Lanturn (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Volt Absorb
    EVs: 36 HP / 252 Def / 220 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Scald
    - Sleep Talk
    - Rest
    - Volt Switch

    Keldeo @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Surf
    - Hydro Pump
    - Hidden Power [Ghost]
    - Secret Sword

    Genesect @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Download
    EVs: 112 Atk / 144 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - U-turn
    - Bug Buzz
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunderbolt

    Terrakion @ Rock Gem
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Substitute
    - Stone Edge
    - Close Combat
    - Swords Dance

    Landorus (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sheer Force
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Rock Polish
    - Earth Power
    - Focus Blast
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
  2. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    775
    Great team you have there. The use of Lanturn as a mixed wall is really interesting, I'll try it out for sure.

    Just a quick feedback: you should really change Mew's nature to Jolly. One of the main selling point of Lead Mew (regardless of its set, it may be SR + Taunt + 2 coverage moves, WoW, or whatever) is to be able to outspeed and Taunt all those base 90/95 that can be extremely annoying, like Deoxys-D and Gliscor. Unless Adamant is netting you some particular KOs with Explosion, Jolly allows you to fix those problems and gives you a free turn to set up Tailwind safely, then SR / Taunt / Explosion as needed.

    Also, just a personal curiosity: did you considered Heal Bell over Scald or Volt Switch on Lanturn? Being able to heal your team from random statuses that might have crippled them while have a very sizable chance to remove the sleep induced by Rest seems sexy to me and worth considering; however, both Scald and Volt Switch are very useful, so it would be nice if you elaborate a bit more on your choices in this regard.

    Anyway, great team and good luck playing it!
  3. Gimmick

    Gimmick Electric potential

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    165
    HI JOMBIN
    When you gave me this team last week, I knew you'd RMT it, so I did some extensive testing. Before though, I just want to say that I love the idea to have a defensive pivot like Lanturn on an extremely Hyper Offensively based team. Volt Switch especially works wonders when trying to switch between sweepers without taking damage. However, like you said, Venusaur "can be annoying," as well as other Sun sweepers, like Victreebell and Sawsbuck.

    Life Orb Venusaur especially.
    It's able to OHKO 4/6 of your team if it's the most common variant (Giga Drain + HP Fire) by hitting Genesect while if it's the HP Ice variant, it can OHKO Landorus instead:

    252 SpAtk Life Orb Venusaur (+SpAtk) Hidden Power Fire vs 0 HP/4 SpDef Genesect: 134.28% - 156.89% (Guaranteed OHKO)

    252 SpAtk Life Orb Venusaur (+SpAtk) Giga Drain vs 0 HP/4 SpDef Keldeo: 99.38% - 117.03% (93.75% chance to OHKO)

    252 SpAtk Life Orb Venusaur (+SpAtk) Giga Drain vs 36 HP/220 SpDef Lanturn (+SpDef) : 65.25% - 76.5% (2 hits to KO) -
    Lanturn can't do anything anyway. It's pretty much set-up fodder. If Venusaur comes out on Lanturn, it's game over with a single Growth.

    252 SpAtk Life Orb Venusaur (+SpAtk) Giga Drain vs 0 HP/4 SpDef Terrakion: 99.38% - 117.03% (93.75% chance to OHKO)


    252 SpAtk Life Orb Venusaur (+SpAtk) Giga Drain vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Landorus: 55.49% - 65.2% (2 hits to KO)


    252 SpAtk Life Orb Venusaur (+SpAtk) Sludge Bomb vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Mew: 51.91% - 61% (2 hits to KO)

    I probably didn't have to do those calcs, but as you can see, 4/6 is indeed OHKOd while the other 2 are 2HKOd. That means with prior weakening of Landorus or Mew (which is a suicide lead anyway), Venusaur doesn't even need a growth to sweep flat. Victreebell is even worse because it has access to a Hidden Power of its choice, usually HP Ice (since Weather Ball serves as its Fire coverage). That means once Mew is taken down, it's over.

    To help alleviate the Sun problem, I recommend you try a temporary weather move on either Mew or Lanturn. Most Sun teams view their Ninetales to be useless fodder once the Sun is permanent, so they do actually sac them. You can take advantage of this by trying Hail over Tailwind on Mew or trying to fit a spot on Lanturn, probably over Rest and Sleep Talk (but that would ruin your amount of pivots). If you do choose Hail on Lanturn, I'd add Thunder Wave as well. Since Lanturn doesn't die to Venusaur's Modest LO Giga Drain, it can massively cripple the opposing threat, allowing all of your Pokemon to take it down. Even though Rain slightly benefits your team through both Lanturn and Keldeo, I feel like removing opposing Rain would take a burden off of Lanturn as Tornadus-T won't be as free with its Hurricanes. Of course, it also removes Sand, so Stoutland or the new-popular Sandslash are less of a problem. But most importantly, it removes Sun, pretty much rendering Venusaur an easy Pokemon to deal with. If you do go with the Hail Mew route, it wouldn't be able to just explode at the beginning of the game, so that could be a bit of a problem (especially if your opponent is very careful with their Ninetales). Lanturn is bulky and sticks around, so I'd go with him instead.

    It's not only Venusuar, but in general, grass typing. Genesect is your only resist but it's pretty frail considering it has a -Sp. Def typing. Virizion is a bit of a problem as well, causing you to rely on Genesect for resistances. Obviously, it'd have to win 2 Speed ties to OHKO both Keldeo and Terrakion, but knowing your luck, it's definitely possible. Genesect can't exactly come in on a Giga Drain or Leaf Blade because of Virizion's other STABs (Focus Blast/Close Combat). You pretty much have to fodder something every time it comes in or play insanely risky vs Virizion to beat it. It's a good thing it's uncommon lol.

    Anyway, there doesn't seem to be any other massive problems from what I've seen when using the team, so that's it! Obviously, this team is amazing (and extremely fun :]), so great job! :toast:

    Luvdisc'd [​IMG]
  4. TGMD

    TGMD +Biosci: you both gave me crabs
    is a Tutoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    Tournament Winner

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2011
    Messages:
    992
    Hey Jimbon, awesome team!

    Max speed on Genesect is only there for speed tying with other Genesect and pokes like Scarf Timid Hydreigon and Scarf Jolly Haxorus, neither of which are ever seen in OU and they don't pose any threat to your team, because Haxorus can't OHKO you with any of it's moves anyway and Hydreigon will have to lock itself into Fire Blast to OHKO you which makes it set-up fodder for Landorus and Terrakion. Speed tying with other Genesect is almost never worth the risk and seeing as your Genesect lacks Flamethower there's almost no situation where you would want to try and speed tie with it in the first place. I recommend changing Genesect's current spread to: 112 Atk / 232 SAtk / 164 Spd. With this spread you still outspeed everything relevant and gain a decent amount of attacking power.

    Anyway, I hope this small rate helped and GL with the team! Luvdisc'd :)
  5. Joeyboy

    Joeyboy Check out my Youtube channel! JoeyboyGames!
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2010
    Messages:
    1,415
    Sweet team man! I've already stolen that cool Tailwind Mew for my Weatherless team :) Plus its great to see Lanturn get some much needed recognition.

    Was about to recommend the same spread TGMD did, so I second that. Especially seeing as you don't even have Flamethrower to kill rival Max Spe Genesects with. At max I'd go with 240 Spe EVs if you must, to outspeed +1 Haxorus. If Genesect is weakened and Haxorus sets up a DD on Lanturn its gunna be doing a lot of damage.

    Something you could try is Hidden Power Ice over Hidden Power Ghost on Keldeo. This is a bit of a superfluous change but hear me out :) You still maintain SE damage on the likes of Lati@s and Celebi while you gain SE coverage on the likes of Dragonite, Breloom, Salamence, Zapdos, and Amoonguss. The main culprit who you lose out on is Jellicent who Lanturn can come in on all day. While HP Ghost gives the best neutral coverage, HP Ice really wins with SE coverage.

    Finally run Keldeo-R over Keldeo. I mean, look how much stronger he looks :)

    Good Luck, and awesome team! Luvdisc
  6. JLei2k

    JLei2k

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2008
    Messages:
    153
    Doesn't LO Latios kind of shit all over you?

    Lanturn is a free switch since it can't do anything to it and then it Draco Meteor/ Surfs the Genesect switch in. Genesect eventually dies from SR (you are Naive as well so more damage) then it kills the rest of your with Psyshock and Surf. It can switch into Landorus as well for the most part and Keldeo given a good prediction.

    Hard to change the rest of your team but I'd scarf one of your ponies as a last ditch effort to try to damage it/ revenge kill it and stall it out of LO.

    Rain counter Latias is a similar issue since it will be running Psyshock to kill Keldeo and Surf most likely as well, except it's even harder to kill.
  7. peng

    peng

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    474
    As I said on IRC, I don't really know how or why you ended up building such an offensive team around a RestTalker. It seems to work though so w.e.

    I'd actually argue that Rain Offense w/ Dugtrio is a much bigger threat to this team than Sun offense is. The vast majority of sun teams around are weak to RP Landorus, so as long as you prioritize giving Landorus set-up oppurtunities I don't think the match-up is all that bad. On the other hand, Rain offense with Duggy just baits you to switch into Lanturn at the risk of losing a mon to Hurricane every time it comes in, and Dugtrio 2HKOs it with Earthquake. If you don't get a Scald burn on its Sash then you become incredibly weak to almost every rain sweeper out there. Even when the opp doesnt have Dugtrio, I feel you are asking a lot of Lanturn considering Gen 5 sleep mechanics - RestTalk is hardly reliable recovery anymore considering you have to be able to stay in for 2 full turns to be able to get a Rest off if you are already sleeping, and there are still common mons on Rain that can force Lanturn out whilst its sleeping and prevent it from getting that Rest. Generally, RI think its a bit ambitious to rely on a Ground-weak Pokemon to check alll these Rain threats given how the metagame is just full of U-Turn + Dugtrio teams.

    This may be a really bad suggestion given how tired I am, but I think Rain Dance Kingdra could be a pretty cool option for this team. The Pokemon it fits best over is probably Keldeo but this makes you even more Ferrothorn weak (atm nothing on your team wants to switch-in on Ferrothorn at all if it gets in against Lanturn). Rain Dance Kingdra patches up your sun weakness to an extent as I'd imagine most people leave Ninetales in on Mew's Explosion, and then Rain Dance makes stuff like Venusaur a non-issue. Kingdra also punishes standard Dugtrio Rain immensely (iirc standard Duggy rain is like toed / dug / torn-t / gene / thund-t / filler). If you go with this change it'd probably be a decent idea to go with Flamethrower over something on Genesect so you have more options for hitting Ferrothorn.

    I can't remember what the exact set is, but its something like this:

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Kingdra @ Life Orb
    Trait: Swift Swim
    EVs: idk, depends if you go special-based or mixed
    Nature: ^
    - Rain Dance
    - Draco Meteor
    - Hydro Pump
    - Waterfall / Dragon Pulse

    Cool team, gl.
  8. Jimbon

    Jimbon FAKE TRAIN
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    493
    @ ganj4lF: I have considered running Jolly over Adamant just for Deoxys-D and such, but I really haven't seen that much of Deoxys-D in general to warrant that change. I realise the pros of running Jolly but there haven't really been too many situations where I would've needed Jolly. I'll definitely try it out to see how it works, I'm not sure if there are any notable OHKOs I miss with Adamant.

    As for the Heal Bell suggestion on Lanturn, that's also something I've had a lot of people suggest. As nice as Heal Bell is, I really, really like Volt Switch on Lanturn. Lanturn is pretty much the only thing that can take a hit or two on my team, and being able to get safe and free switches into frailer teammates is excellent, given that Lanturn is usually slower than everything that commonly switches into it. ResTalk + Heal Bell would be nice for prolonging the longevity of Lanturn, but losing Volt Switch means I'm now much easier to be turned into setup fodder and I lose a lot of momentum, something that my team kind of relies on.

    I'll try out the Jolly > Adamant change on Mew, thanks for the suggestions!

    @ Gimmick: hi friend <3

    Yeah, Sun teams with Venusaur are one of the biggest problems to face, for the reasons you listed. Generally I try to set up with Landorus early or explode with Mew, but that isn't exactly reliable. Hail on Mew / Lanturn is an interesting idea, but both have pretty bad 4mss, and there's nothing I'd like to lose on either of them. I'll definitely try it though, as it is a big deterrent to Rain easing my reliance on Lanturn, and stops Sun when Ninetales is gone. Thunder Wave is also an interesting option on Mew, and actually gives me a reason not to instantly explode. Venusaur can't OHKO it, neither can any other Chlorophyll abuser without a boost or two. Thunder Wave keeps said abusers in check, and makes them much easier to deal with for my other teammates etc.

    Good suggestions as always, thanks! :toast:

    @ TGMD: I've been looking for a more efficient Genesect set than my current one, so thanks for that. Ever since I played Dream World, I've just stuck with 252 Spe with Scarf, but I wasn't aware that there wasn't anything relevant worth investing to beat. Thanks for the suggestion!

    @ Joeyboy: Yeah, I'll probably go with this spread for Genesect, as Dragons in general are kinda annoying to face, especially with no reliable Dragon resist. With Naive, Genesect can switch into one Draco Meteor before it dies, so this change will definitely help out.

    As for the Hidden Power [Ice] suggestion, I think I'll stick with Hidden Power [Ghost] for the time being. If I were to go with an Ice move, I'd choose Icy Wind, which means I'd also probably opt for Hidden Power [Electric] for BoltBeam like coverage. This means I lose out on an dual water STAB, which is something I'd be hesitant to do so. I like having Surf and Hydro Pump on Keldeo in situations of Power vs Accuracy, which is important as a Choice Specs user. With Secret Sword + Hidden Power [Ghost], I still retain perfect coverage as well as two STAB moves.

    Thanks for the good suggestions though, I'll be using your Genesect spread. Thanks again!

    @ JLei2K: Yeah Latios is a problem, but I really haven't had that much trouble with it. Normally I can play around it with Genesect + hazards, and Mew can live a hit from any set that isn't Specs, and Specs means free setup for Terrakion. It still is a problem though, as I do lack something to reliably switch into constant Draco Meteors. Latias is much easier to deal with, as Genesect can take a couple hits, it can't switch into Keldeo / Terrakion and OHKO it, and Mew lives much more comfortably to the point where I can potentially Tailwind + Explode on it.

    @ PenguinX: hi peng

    Yeah Dugtrio Rain is a bad matchup, given that Dugtrio traps Lanturn and puts it into the point where it is easily revengeable even by Tornadus or Genesect. Kingdra is a cool option, especially as it helps against all weathers, murdering Rain / Sun offense when Ferrothorn is gone. I do think Keldeo would be the most replaceable in this instance, as they perform similar roles. My only concern is that I have a much harder time beating defensive cores, as Kingdra is easily walled.

    Thanks for the luvdiscs and rates everyone, your suggestions are much appreciated!
  9. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,564
    Excellent RMT, Jimbon - I am happy that you challenged Dark Horse with this pimpin' team. Tailwind Lead Mew and that defensive pivot Lanturn is simply ingenious!

    I have a suggestion that can easily help with your Sun team weakness. While I was challenging Outsiders, I found an effective weatherless combination that checks Sun rather handily - Scarf Landorus and LO Mamoswine. Scarf Landorus checks any Victini, Ninetales, Darmanitan, and Volcarona, whereas Mamoswine's Ice Shard pierces through Chlorophyll and Dragon mons. Sand Force Landorus and Mamoswine actually checks sand teams pretty darn well, too. With Lanturn as a check to Rain, you pretty much have weather covered.

    Swapping Landorus's sets and replacing Genesect for LO Mamoswine would fix the sun issue. Landorus is a better overall scarfer than Genesect anyways, checking Salamence and Volcarona that are problematic to this team. It still provides the U-turn's switch advantage, albeit weaker. Mamoswine's Ice Shard is just really good right now for checking the therians, chlorophyll sweepers, and dragons. Since you have Mamoswine's Ice Shard, you may want to consider utilizing Landorus's HP Ice's slot for something like Fly to better force out opposing Keldeo.

    LO Mamoswine &amp; Scarf Landorus (open)
    [​IMG]Mamoswine @ LO | Thick Fat
    Jolly | 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    ~ Earthquake
    ~ Ice Shard
    ~ Superpower
    ~ Icicle Crash

    Icicle Spear is an option, but I prefer Icicle Crash's reliable power.

    [​IMG]Landorus @ Choice Scarf | Sand Force
    Naive or Jolly | 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    ~ Earthquake
    ~ U-turn
    ~ Rock Slide
    ~ HP Ice / Fly

    Rock Slide > Stone Edge, because you want to kill that Volcarona, not miss.


    Again, this was a delightful read - thanks for the RMT!
  10. Jimbon

    Jimbon FAKE TRAIN
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    493
    Hi Pocket, thanks for the kind words. It was fun to use this team for Dark Horse and get some success with it.

    Scarf Landorus and Life Orb Mamoswine seem like very good options. They definitely give me a much more reliable answer to Dragons, as well as some extra insurance against Sun Teams. It also provides me with priority which is great because Breloom is very annoying to play against and usually involved putting something to sleep and letting it get to +2, before revenging it with Landorus or Keldeo. It also means I can actually revenge stuff like Scarf Mence and DD Nite with more than one DD, whereas I had full reliance on Genesect before to do it. The main problem that comes up now is I have no Dragon resist, meaning that I can't even attempt to switch in against Dragons locked into Outrage. It means that it something like CB Nite gets a free switch, something dies. If Latios gets a free switch, something dies. I usually played around this with Genesect and Ice Beam / U-Turn spam, but adding Mamoswine means I need a free switch to revenge said Dragons. I'll definitely try out your ideas Pocket, they look very good and fit my playstyle.

    Overall, I have tried a couple changes, mainly PenguinX's Kingdra and the Hail on Lanturn / Mew suggestion. Kingdra worked pretty well but just increased my reliance on Terrakion to beat Ferrothorn, which isn't the most reliable. The Hail suggestion was something I didn't like. Both Mew and Lanturn have severe 4mss, and losing a move was not ideal for one particular matchup. There were few scenarios where Hail on either 'mon made a difference, and when it did they were not in at the time meaning I had to continually switch to beat said weather abuser. I've also implemented the EV spread for Genesect suggested by Joeyboy / TGMD, and I've noticed the extra power in SAtk, so thanks for that guys. I've also thought about testing CB Dragonite and CS Jirachi over the spot of Genesect, but I'm not sure, they perform similar roles so I guess it could be worth a try. Thanks everyone for the luvdiscs and helpful comments so far, I appreciate the help.
  11. chimpact

    chimpact fire nation
    is an official Team Rateris a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2006
    Messages:
    1,837
    Nice team, I got your emergency message to rate your team on skype! :]].

    I tested out the team on PO and PS and the one pokemon that I felt uncomfortable using was Terrakion. I felt like it just performed roles similar to the other pokemon on your team and it was just adding more weaknesses to your team. Priority users and 110+ base speed pokemon are definitely problematic.

    Your team handles Breloom and Scizor relatively well, but Terrakion just gives them a free opportunity to come in and mindgame you. Is breloom going to go for the lowsweep/spore or mach punch and is scizor gonna stay in and u-turn or bullet punch?

    I tested out a Lucario over Terrakion and it's worked pretty well for me. It's ability to force switches and get that swords dance boost is incredible. With Scarf Genesect, Keldeo, and Landorus, you have enough speed on the team that losing out on Terrakion won't hurt that much. Additionally, your team now has a priority user so that you handle sun sweepers and scarf 100+ pokes better. You also don't have to rely on Genesect to try to take out every sub 100 scarfer.

    With the Lucario change, Genesect becomes a more annoying threat, but I relied on Lanturn to take it on and it worked pretty well.

    I tried Scarf Landorus too, and there were many times where I was very pleased with it and other times where it was very underwhelming. It's another fast pokemon in a very offensive meta. But there were many times where I was force to lock myself into a move to take out a pokemon and it would make me lose momentum.

    Maybe it's just my playstyle, but I hope if you listen to my suggestions it'll help :].

    Lucario @ Life Orb
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Bullet Punch
    - Extremespeed
    - Close Combat
    - Swords Dance
  12. King

    King

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2010
    Messages:
    599
    Hey Jimbon! Nice team you have there. Lanturn counters the piss out of my current team so I hope to not have to face you in the near future xP

    Well there's only 1 thing I see that could be a potential problem if Tailwind isn't up and that is the lack of speed. In my opinion I think you'd be better off with a different Terrakion set:

    Terrakion @ Salac Berry
    252 attack/252 spd/4 hp
    -Substitute
    -Swords Dance
    -Close Combat
    -Stone Edge

    Once you get a sub off you will be able to do wonders and since I know your a high level player I think you could pull it off ;). I hope my suggestion helps, and if not good luck in the future!

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)