1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Welcome to the Rebellion (a team by -Rockstar- and Jirachi)

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Jirachee, Jul 31, 2012.

  1. Jirachee

    Jirachee Kaleidoscope
    is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    RMT Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2010
    Messages:
    1,731
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    A Team By Jirachi & Rockstar

    It's a very well known fact that the most common and best team style in the BW2 OU metagame is Drizzle. There are so many good Drizzle abusers even with the infamous Drizzle + Swift Swim combination banned via Aldaron's proposal, such as Tornadus-T, Starmie, Rotom-W, Thundurus-T, and much more. Drizzle teams can from heavily offensive teams to Stall teams, which make them even more dangerous since you can't really prepare yourself for Drizzle in general. BW2 just made Drizzle teams much stronger with the introduction of ridiculoudly powerful sweepers such as Tornadus-T who can sweep through a lot of teams with ease, or Keldeo who can break through common counters of Water typed Pokemon. All of these new toys contributed in the rise in usage of Drizzle Politoed, to a point where controlling the weather is nearly essential to secure a win.

    However these kind of teams aren't without weakness and can surely find a lot of trouble against some anti metagame threats. A very common example of this is Gastrodon, which is incredibly good at stopping most Water types which are very common in Drizzle teams. However most of them are aware of these kind of threats and hard walls and have found a way around them, quickly taking them out in order to allow their Water types to sweep through helpless teams. We thought that Kingdra would be a perfect Pokemon to fight Drizzle teams, as it greatly benefits of Rain with Swift Swim in the increase of power to its Water STAB, and can destroy a huge part of their abusers. Since Kingdra is currently UU, we figured that not a lot of teams would actually be prepared to face it and it's certainly a powerful force in permanent Rain.


    This team is quite simple: it revolves around removing Kingdra's counters, set up at least one Dragon Dance and sweep using Waterfall and Outrage. There are little counters to this fantastic sweeper in OU and the rest of this team can deal with them with ease. Kingdra doesn't even need Drizzle to sweep as it is a fine sweeper by itself, it just makes it much easier.This is nowhere near a perfect team however, there are some threats that can beat it easier than we would like to. However we do think that it's a pretty good one and would like to share it with you.

    Team Building
    Team Building process (open)

    [​IMG]
    We built the team around Kingdra because we wanted to take advantage of all the Drizzle teams in the metagame. Kingdra is very scary for these teams as it's extremely fast and extremely difficult to take down, and nearly impossible to check because of its great dual STAB moves. We went for a Substitute+Dragon Dance version because unlike the Choice Specs version, it actually works well against Sand and weatherless teams.
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Obviously there's always Ferrothorn and various other Steel types who wall Kingdra somewhat easily because of its reliance on Outrage. Heatran was the perfect answer to most of them as it doesn't take much from their attacks and can hit them hard with Fire STAB even in Rain. It can also set up Stealth Rock which always helps. Heatran was a pretty obvious choice here.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Celebi was added because we thought an Heatran+Kingdra core would have a lot of trouble with bulkier Water types, especially those who carry Scald or Will-O-Wisp since our Kingdra is physical. Celebi is a nice switch-in to that kind of threat, while also having excellent defensive synergy with Heatran which is always a plus.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Our team definetly lacked Speed and it isn't a very good situation to be in when there are an incredible amount of threats that can just sweep you clean after one turn of set up. That's why we added Choice Scarf Thundurus-T, as it is able to revenge pretty much every dangerous threats with a few exceptions while also nicely complementing the rest of the team with Volt Switch, since slower Pokemon really appreciate to get in for free.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Since Heatran is our only Steel type and can't really deal with every Dragon types in the game, Scizor was a logic choice. It also added incredibly useful priority to the team and provided a way to put pressure on Terrakion which was somewhat of an alarming threat before. Scizor also gives us a second U-turn which is appreciated and a back up revenge killer in the case Thundurus-T isn't able to do the job.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    We added Choice Band Dragonite as a second priority user, a wallbreaker and a great offensive partner to Kingdra as it can destroy Steel types with Superpower, and we started using the team, which wasn't bad but... not great either. We still had problems with a ton of stuff like teams with multiple Steel types, and Dragonite was more of a burden than anything else in that situation.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Hydreigon was the last addition to the team and it suddenly became much, much more effective than with Dragonite. We needed a better check to Rain Calm Mind Jirachi and something to beat Steel types easier and Hydreigon was just the perfect Pokemon for the job. With both Fire Blast and Earth Power it's able to hit pretty much every Steel type for Super Effective damage, and Draco Meteor just destroys everything else. This makes it an amazing partner to Kingdra as a Life Orb, Modest Draco Meteor tends to lure the enemy Dragon resist... to their fall.


    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Kingdra @ Leftovers
    Ability: Swift Swim
    Nature: Adamant
    EVs: 40 HP / 224 Atk / 16 Def / 228 Spe
    ~Waterfall
    ~Outrage
    ~Substitute
    ~Dragon Dance

    We decided to focus our team around this Kingdra, which is a pretty standard Substitute+Dragon Dance set. Kingdra is an amazing tool against offensive Rain teams because it can Revenge Kill pretty much everything in it with Waterfall, and Water types are just extremely easy to set up on. Bulkier Rain teams with Ferrothorn are much more of an issure for Kingdra but, as of now, it certainly isn't the most popular Pokemon on this kind of team. Once the bulkier Steel types have been removed from play Kingdra has an easy time sweeping through most teams, even with just one boost due to its amazing typing and bulk. It's not like Kingdra was a dead weight against Sand and weatherless teams though, as there are a pretty big amount of fairly popular threats that Kingdra can very easily set up on, including Heatran, Scizor locked into Bullet Punch, and Tentacruel. These are extremely common sights and they just can't do anything to Kingdra much without risking giving it multiple boosts which result in a sweep. Kingdra is a pretty difficult Pokemon to Revenge Kill too, as after a boost, there are really only a few Pokemon that outspeed it and can OHKO it because of its only weakness that is Dragon. The only common one is Choice Scarf Latios, and even then, it's much less common than Choice Scarf Flygon in Gen 4. This all contribute to make Kingdra an amazing sweeper.

    Since it only has one weakness and two amazing x4 resistances to Fire and Water, Kingdra can take on a more defensive role for the team too. Kingdra becomes an important check to Offensive Heatran, Choice Rotom-W, Life Orb Starmie, and most Water types since they can put a lot of pressure on this team's main check to them, Celebi, which could end up dying if it takes too much of these attacks. Kingdra is more than capable of helping with these attackers and can actually set up on them to make them play more carefully, which can always be helpful. Even with all this defensive usefulness Kingdra is much better kept late game where the opposince Steel types have been removed or severly weakened and this team is perfectly able to to work without Kingdra supporting it defensively.



    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Heatran @ Air Balloon
    Ability: Flash Fire
    Nature: Timid
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    ~Fire Blast
    ~Earth Power
    ~Hidden Power Ice
    ~Stealth Rock

    Offensively, Heatran is perhaps the most important member of this team, for numerous reasons. First, it's without a doubt the best switch in to Kingdra's arch-nemesis, Ferrothorn, who never enjoys taking a STAB Fire Blast, even in the Rain. This makes Heatran so important to the team's success, because we wanted to sweep with Kingdra. What makes Heatran such a wonderful partner to it is the fact it can switch into any Steel type in OU pretty easily, except maybe Superpower from Scizor, and burn them down to ashes with its Fire STAB. It was very important that Heatran had its Special Attacking power nearly maximized because we knew that we were going to face a lot of Rain teams which greatly reduce the power of Fire Blast, but even in that kind of condition Heatran is able to destroy most of the annoying threats that stop Kingdra from spamming the powerful Outrage. Secondly, Heatran is the team's Stealth Rocker, and sincerly, even Tyranitar isn't as good as Heatran to set them up. With Air Balloon it scares so much stuff out that it has a ton of free switches every game, so it can definetly use one of them to set up useful Entry Hazards, making it possible for Hydreigon and Kingdra to OHKO much more stuff with their Dragon STAB as they switch in, and making dealing with dangerous threats like Dragonite, Salamence and Volcarona much easier.

    Heatran is also a formidable check to a plethora of threats which sincerly would just destroy this team without. This ranges from most version of Volcarona (has to be careful and keep the Air Balloon for Hidden Power Ground versions though), most Dragon Dancers like Dragonite and Salamence, Swords Dance Scizor, and Growth Venusaur. Obviously these aren't the only threats Heatran is able to check but that's only naming a few. It's very important to have a bulky Steel type in today's metagame because of all the incredibly powerful Dragons there are, and since Heatran carries a great mix of Physical and Special bulk, and a great Fire immunity, it goes without saying that it's one of the best for offensive teams. Heatran is our main tool against the not so popular but very dangerous Sun teams because it can take on so many of their most common members and hit them back very hard. Honestly, that team simply can't live without Heatran and it goes without saying that it's probably its most vital member.


    [​IMG]
    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Ability: Natural Cure
    Nature: Modest
    EVs: 224 HP / 252 SpA / 32 Spe
    ~Giga Drain
    ~Psychic
    ~Hidden Power Fire
    ~Recover

    Celebi is the team's main weapon against bulky Water types who give so much trouble to both Kingdra and Heatran. It's fairly easy for it to switch on most of the common ones like Rotom-W and Gastrodon since the are quite often slower than it, and can really hit them hard with Giga Drain. This is much more important than it seems because while Kingdra technically x4 resists their Water STABs to turn them into easy set up fodder, it really doesn't want to switch into Rotom-W's Will-O-Wisp or some random burning Scald because that could but an end to its sweep right there. It's very important not to take a 30% risk of losing your best sweeper right there because that severly reduces any team's chances to win and this is especially true against teams who carry Drizzle Politoed because so many of their common members are checked by Kingdra. Still, Celebi is a great tool for anyone who really hates this kind of Water types because it can simply shrug off any kind of status with Natural Cure and beat them easily.

    Celebi is an important part of the team's defensive synergy because it is the only one who can take on the never ending amount of Fighting types in OU, including Technician Breloom, Conkeldurr, Virizion, and Terrakion to an extent. This is pretty important considering these Pokemon can easily scare out two of this team's members, Hydreigon and Heatran due to their Fighting weakness. Celebi can also tank Water moves with its great bulk and resistance, making it one of the best switch in for this type of Pokemon who run rampant in the current metagame. However Celebi's defensive prowesses are not limited to checking different type of Pokemon but also some playstyles. Celebi is probably the best check there is to Rotom-W + Scizor "Volturn" cores because it's an easy switch-in to Rotom-W and it can OHKO Scizor with Hidden Power Fire, which is crucial given the popularity of this core since the banning of Excadrill and Deoxys-S. Since this team carries no Rapid Spinner it was very important to have an immediate stop to this kind of strategy and Celebi is just the perfect answer. Finally, Celebi also serves as the team's status absorber, be it something like Stun Spore from Amoonguss or something in the likes because of the wonderful ability Natural Cure. Celebi is a much bigger part in this team's defensive synergy than in the offensive one but it is definetly one of the biggest reasons as to why it can work.
  2. -Rockstar-

    -Rockstar-

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2010
    Messages:
    239
    [​IMG]
    Thundurus-T @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Volt Absorb
    Nature: Timid
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    ~Volt Switch
    ~Thunderbolt
    ~Hidden Power Ice
    ~Focus Blast

    While Choice Scarf certainly isn't Thundurus-T's most threatening set, it is certainly one of its most useful. Thundurus-T's role in this team is to put pressure on the enemy team early in the game with Volt Switch, and it is its most common lead. It's very helpful for any offensive team to start the game with the momentum and a Volt Switch as powerful as Thundurus-T's certainly is one of them best out there. It can also serve as a late game cleaner given that it outspeeds pretty much everything in the metagame that isn't boosted except for the random Stoutland/Sandslash and Chlorophyll abusers. With a Thunderbolt as strong as Thundurus-T's it's fairly easy to sweep weakened teams especially if their Electric immunity (if they have one) is down. However the main attraction here is definetly Volt Switch as late game it can allow us to switch to whatever sweeper that will take them down in security, making it easy to beat weak teams.

    It's always good to have a fast Revenge Killer and outside of Rain it is our main one. Outspeeding the fastest DD Dragon (Salamence) by 1 base Speed, it is very difficult to imagine a much better Speed tier. Hidden Power Ice allows use to revenge all of these dangerous Dragons pretty easily if they are locked into Outrage and it's a very common situation. It's also a fairly nice check to Calm Mind+ 3 attacks Keldeo that can definetly cause problems to Celebi as it can't shield itself with a Substitute so Thundurus-T can just Volt Switch away or Thunderbolt it. It's also always nice to have a check to things that are pretty rare but always exist like Dragon Dance Gyarados, who can be dangerous to an unprpared team. Thundurus-T is also a great answer to all kind of Swords Dance Scizor as none of them carry something like Quick Attack, and these could be dangerous for the team if they can catch Heatran on the switch with Superpower. Overall, Thundurus-T is the kind of revenge killer that can KO back pretty much everything with its great power and Speed and reduces by a lot the list of things that this team hate.


    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Scizor @ Choice Band
    Ability: Technician
    Nature: Adamant
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
    ~Bullet Punch
    ~U-turn
    ~Superpower
    ~Pursuit

    Scizor is a very important part of this team's offense as it is the only one who carries a physical Fighting attack which is used to pummel to likes of Blissey. It is our main tool against Stall teams as we don't have a Rapid Spinner which could be troublesome in long battles. U-turn is just amazing against that kind of team as they can often find it difficult to react to our switch-in which could end up screwing them up. U-turn's momentum isn't only limited to Stall teams though, it also makes quite a fine lead if the match up is bad for Thundurus-T, and furthermore, it makes quite a nice Volturn combo with the very same Thundurus-T. This allows them to rack up a lot of damage quickly which weakens the bulkiest members of the opponent's team, something Kingdra definetly appreciates especially against non-rain teams because of its pretty average base 95 Attack, allowing it to OHKO much more stuff then.

    Scizor's main reason of presence on this team is to patch some holes because it can check an enourmous quantity of threats with great typing, powerful priority and the ever useful Pursuit. An extra Dragon resist never hurts especially when Heatran is such an important member of this team to check other things than Dragons, and we want to keep it alive for the entire match which could be troublesome since we don't run defensive investment. Scizor is an excellent stop to Choice Specs Latios which is definetly one of the most powerful threats out there, and something you should always be prepared to face. Bullet Punch allows it to be a nice check to all kind of Terrakion except those with Substitute, but Celebi can help with those. The coolest thing about Scizor is certainly its ability to revenge pretty much everything that is weakened with Bullet Punch, even the fastest thing you can imagine that doesn't carry priority. This is critical since Scizor is the only priority user we carry on this team and it can always make a difference in a critical turn of a game.


    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Hydreigon @ Life Orb
    Ability: Levitate
    Nature: Rash
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    ~Draco Meteor
    ~Fire Blast
    ~Earthquake
    ~Roost

    BW2 was very generous to Hydreigon and it goes without saying that all these nice bonuses were needed to give it an usefulness when compared to Latios. Life Orb gives Hydreigon all the power it needs to break through slower teams and Roost just compliments this well, abusing its great bulk and good set of resistances. Draco Meteor is really a wonderful move and it destroys pretty much anything that doesn't resist it, so we would never go for the terrible Dragon Pulse. Draco Meteor wrecks and that's exactly what we want. But Hydreigon's main selling point are really the two moves under Draco Meteor: Fire Blast and Earth Power catches so many Steel types off guard it's ridiculous. Ferrothorn, Scizor, Jirachi, Heatran... all of them. Hydreigon is one of the best Dragon supporters in the game because with little prediction it can tear their counters to shreds. If the opponent predicts Fire Blast and switches their Fire resistance into Hydreigon instead, it really won't appreciate the incoming Draco Meteor that follows up. Hydreigon and Kingdra are amazing partners and they really wreck so much stuff together.

    It's actually a defensive reason that got Hydreigon on our team because we had Choice Band Dragonite in this spot before instead. After testing it a bit on the ladder we found out that Rain Calm Mind Jirachi was a huge threat to the team and we looked at the options that we could choose... and chose Hydreigon. Overall Hydreigon is a pretty bulky Dragon and really helps against common threats like Volturn cores, because sometimes Celebi is at low health and we can't really risk taking a critical Hydro Pump or something like that, making Hydreigon a viable alternative. It's also a pretty nice switch in to defensive Heatran who carries Lava Plume because we really can't afford to risk Kingdra getting burned. Hydreigon doesn't really mind it and pummels it with Earth Power. Hydreigon is also our best check for the likes of Landorus-T and other Ground typed Pokemon thanks to its fantastic ability Levitate. While Hydreigon isn't the most useful Pokemon in the defensive synergy department it certainly more than makes up for it in the offensive one.


    Threatlist
    Show Hide

    Abomasnow: Abomasnow isn't really a big deal as a single threat for this team since Heatran and Scizor really destroy it, but Hail can certainly do a whole lot of damage, however, Heatran can tank most Blizzards fairly easily. Not something to really worry about, but something to be careful of.

    Alakazam: Alakazam can do damage but generally Scizor is a fairly safe switch in, although it takes a ton from Focus Blast. Thundurus-T can also outspeed and OHKO it, but Scizor should be alive against Alakazam teams otherwise it could be troublesome.

    Blissey: While this team isn't the best equipped at dealing with this kind of Special wall, Scizor remains a very good answer to it. Kingdra can actually hurt it a lot with Outrage so it shouldn't wall our team. Variations with Flamethrower are surprising and deadly though, but they often lack Seismic Toss then making it easy set up fodder for Kingdra

    Breloom: A rising star in the BW2 metagame, definetly more popular at the moment than it will be later due to all the hype, but still very dangerous. Celebi is a pretty good switch-in though as it resist both STABs and can OHKO it with Psychic. Thundurus-T can serve as an emergency check.

    Celebi: Opposing Celebi aren't a problem as long as they lack Earth Power, and if they have it, Hydreigon can still beat it reliably. Definetly not a threat to this team although it's fairly annoying for Kingdra.

    Chansey: Chansey is pretty much the same as Blissey though Kingdra needs a boost to get past it. It won't carry Flamethrower though so Scizor can beat it.

    Cloyster: Cloyster isn't a very common threat but whenever it appears it's often as a lead, so Thundurus-T can take the lead and Volt Switch out to Scizor. It has a pretty hard time setting up on this team so it shouldn't be a problem.

    Conkeldurr: Celebi is an amazing Conkeldurr check as long as it doesn't switch into a Guts boosted Ice Punch. It can use Psychic for the quick KO. Thundurus-T can also Volt Switch it for good damage since it isn't threatened by Mach Punch and can pick off weak ones.

    Deoxys-D: Deoxys-D is rather annoying not because of it being a problem for this team but because of the enourmous number of hazards it can drop. It's very important to KO it quickly and Hydreigon is probably the best to do that, as sometimes it carry Hidden Power Fire for Scizor. Since it's the lead for HO teams it's important to use Hydreigon as the starter.

    Donphan: Sincerly Donphan is probably the least threatning Pokemon to this team. It can't really spin on Heatran if it still has Air Balloon, and while it is immune to Thundurus-T's electric moves, everything else on the team destroys it. A non-issue.

    Dragonite: Dragonite is a terrifying threat for any team and not being prepared for it is suicide. Heatran can wall it completely if it's a Roost version with Fire Punch, and offensive versions are walled if Air Balloon is still there. Thundurus-T and Scizor could revenge it in a pinch.

    Dugtrio: Dugtrio is fairly annoying since it can trap and kill Heatran without Air Balloon, otherwise, it's difficult to imagine Dugtrio sweeping a team. Gotta be careful against Dugtrio teams with Heatran's Balloon as if they carry something like Volcarona this could mean trouble.

    Espeon: Definetly a threat if it's able to set up Screens successfully, so it's important to choose the correct lead against Espeon teams. Scizor could be a nice one, although some carry Hidden Power Fire, so Hydreigon is a good choice too.

    Ferrothorn: Kingdra's worst enemy, definetly something that is not fun to face. Still, Heatran can switch into it all the time, unless it's something weird like Choice Band. Hydreigon can lure it in if the opponent doesn't have a better Dragon resist to tank Draco Meteor.

    Forretress: With Stealth Rock as the only hazard on that team, it's not the end of the world if it spins it away. Heatran can switch into it over and over and set up Rocks again. It's fairly easy to get past, but should be removed late game when attempting a Kingdra sweep.

    Gastrodon: Celebi is the ultimate Gastrodon switch in, although it could be threatning if it gets in on Heatran. It walls a pretty good part of the team but the other part are pretty hard for it to deal with so not that much of a problem, especially if it doesn't carry Ice Beam (a lot like to use Earthquake and Scald).

    Gengar: Gengar is all about prediction. SubSplit version are dealt with by Scizor unless they carry the very rare Hidden Power Fire. SubDisable versions require Volt Switch support from Thundurus-T and can then go to Scizor to Bullet Punch it. Gengar can certainly be a threat if played well.

    Gliscor: Not an issue. Gliscor loses to Heatran with Air Balloon, Kingdra can beat it, Thundurus-T too. Hydreigon is a pretty good switch-in too, as it can't really hurt it. SubToxic versions are pretty rare nowadays although they could be more difficult for the team.

    Gyarados: Celebi can take on versions without Bounce fairly easily if they don't have a ton of Moxie boosts. Those with Bounce can be dealt with by Thundurus-T (switch to Celebi, then switch to Thundurus-T when it Bounces).

    Haxorus: The Choice Band version could mean we lose a Pokemon since it hits so hard, but it's fairly easy to revenge kill then. The Dragon Dance version is in the same situation.

    Heatran: Heatran is a lot of fun to face because if it doesn't carry Dragon Pulse or Roar it's easy set up bait for Kingdra. Hydreigon can lure it in pretty easily and beat it up with Earth Power. Our own Heatran can also do well against those without Air Balloon or Earth Power.

    Hippowdon: Hippowdon is fairly bulky but given this team is mainly made of Special Attackers it shouldn't be that much of a problem. Celebi destroys it fairly easily, as does Hydreigon. Sand Stream is pretty annoying though so it can be nuisance.

    Hydreigon: Opposing Hydreigon aren't the easiest match up for a team that is pretty slow, but it can certainly be dealt with. Choice Specs version can do a lot of damage with Draco Meteor but Heatran can tank it. Life Orb versions are definetlty the most annoying as they can do a lot of damage and switch move. Thundurus-T and Scizor can hurt it a lot though, and Heatran with Air Balloon can wall it. It's all about prediction.

    Infernape: Not really a threat for this team unless it predicts every move we make. It will have a hard time switching in, and Kingdra can absorb a Fire move and force it out. Never been a problem and shouldn't be.

    Jellicent: No big deal. It can't block our spinner since we have none. Celebi enjoys the free switch ins it gives and can then Recover back health or just hit stuff. Thundurus-T can hurt it badly. It doesn't appreciate Hydreigon's Draco Meteor either.

    Jirachi: Rain Calm Mind version are a big threat to this team if they get lucky against Hydreigon and Kingdra isn't set up yet. Otherwise if they have no Sub Kingdra can beat them, and Specially Defensive versions are easy Heatran bait. Those without Body Slam can be used by Thundurus-T. Hydreigon can lure it and Earth Power it or Fire Blast it outside of Rain, although it's not a really great lure outside of Rain.

    Jolteon: A tough one but with good prediction won't do much damage. Specs Thunderbolt can be taken by Thundurus-T, Celebi and Hydreigon, while if they use Hidden Power Ice we'll have to switch out. Not that big of a threat in Rain since Kingdra scares it out and sets up.

    Keldeo: SubCM versions can be dealt with by Celebi who resists both of its STABs. CM + 3 attacks versions are much more difficult to deal with as both of its common Hidden Powers hit Celebi. Thundurus-T can revenge it though.

    Landorus: Since it's commonly Scarfed it's not that big of a deal. Heatran can beat it with Air Balloon active, while Hydreigon can take care of it the rest of the time unless it U-turns out. Could be a threat if it predicts correctly however.

    Landorus-T: Much easier to deal with. Since it's pretty slow Hydreigon is a solid answer. Thundurus-T can get in on any move that isn't Stone Edge and Hidden Power Ice it. Fairly easy to deal with and shouldn't be an issue.

    Latias: Both Scizor and Heatran are extremely solid answers. Since they rarely carry Hidden Power Fire or Surf, and never both, it's almost never an issue. Rain teams tend to love carrying it as an answer to Sun so Kingdra can beat it in that situation.

    Latios: While Choice Specs Latios can be dealt with pretty easily, Life Orb Latios is without a doubt the biggest threat to this team. It takes a pretty big team effort to take it down if it has Hidden Power Fire as Scizor won't be able to Pursuit trap it. Not a clean sweep but can certainly beat a Pokemon when it comes in. Scizor's health is vital against Latios teams and it should always be played carefully.

    Lucario: A pretty underrated threat in the current metagame but this team is prepared for it. It will have a pretty hard time setting up unless it's on Thundurus-T's Hidden Power Ice which is somewhat rare. Hydreigon can tank an ExtremeSpeed and Earth Power it. Celebi takes on Bullet Punch versions.

    Magnezone: The only member threatened by Magnezone is Scizor, and losing it could be quite problematic, so of course Magnezone is a threat. Unfortunately, there's not much that can be done to help Scizor here, although Team Preview certainly helps. Usually the strategy is to spam U-turn against Mag teams, until said Mag faints (this applies to Magneton too since it seems to be relatively popular as a scarfer.)

    Mamoswine: Another popular Pokemon in BW2, Mamoswine could be a threat if Heatran lost its Air Balloon. Kingdra deals with Adamant versions pretty easily. Scizor is a nice check but must be aware of Earthquake when switching in.

    Meloetta: A pretty rare sight, Heatran deals with those without Close Combat. Scizor can do well against it too. It will have a hard time using Relic Song.

    Metagross: Kingdra can tank its STAB and Heatran can beat it too. Metagross isn't very threatning to this team.

    Mew: Will-O-Wisp Mew is pretty annoying but Heatran is a fairly nice switch-in. Nasty Plot Mew is very unexpected and can certainly deal a lot of damage to this team, however, it is fairly rare.

    Ninetales: Not really a big threat as of itself but Sun teams are pretty annoying, especially if they find a way to cripple Heatran, like Dugtrio or Sleep Powder Venusaur. They can really do a lot of damage but generally Heatran and Hydreigon are able to stop them.

    Politoed: YES PLEASE

    Reuniclus: Calm Mind Reuniclus is pretty annoying since Scizor's U-turn doesn't OHKO it and forces it to switch out. Generally we have to go to something else that can hit it hard after, or simply get back to Scizor and hope it doesn't Recover twice. Trick Room versions are much easier since Scizor OHKOes them.

    Skarmory: Skarmory is not big deal however it's much better when it's removed in order to sweep with Kingdra. Thundurus-T, Hydreigon and Heatran really destroy it though, so it shouldn't be a problem. Still fairly annoying since it prevents Kingdra from Outraging.

    Starmie: Life Orb Starmie isn't really a difficult match up as Celebi can switch into it pretty well and if it's in Rain which happens fairly often, Kingdra can get on Hydro Pump or Surf and set up on it. Other variations are just complete Kingdra set up fodder though.

    Tentacruel: Yet another set up fodder for Kingdra, although Scald burns are frustrating. It's much better to get in on something like Rapid Spin. Tentacruel really isn't a threat for this team, as Celebi can also hurt it, and not much is affected by Toxic Spikes. (only Kingdra and Celebi actually.)

    Terrakion: Probably the most well known threat in post Excadrill metagame, Terrakion is always difficult to deal with, but Scizor is an amazing check to any set that isn't SubSD. Celebi can deal with those to an extent and after something broke the sub Scizor can still beat it. It doesn't have a lot of free switches though, so it limits its effectiveness.

    Thundurus-T: While it has no counters, Thundurus-T is fairly easy to check and our own is very capable of doing that. It's often seen in Rain teams to abuse Thunder so Kingdra can check it too. Definetly a major threat to any team though, especially the Nasty Plot version.

    Tornadus-T:
    Probably the "Terrakion" of BW2, Tornadus-T hits very hard, but since it's most commonly seen in Rain teams which are eaten alive by Kingdra, usually not a problem. Thundurus-T can put pressure on it and Volt Switch out to Kingdra if their Ferrothorn is down or severly weakened. Not that big of a threat, even though it can cause a lot of damage.

    Toxicroak: Another popular Rain Pokemon, Toxicroak can be a bit more tricky. While it's very difficult for it to set up since my Kingdra has Substitute to block Sucker Punch and can Outrage it, and pretty much everything else carries a powerful/super effective move, if it predicts well it could do a lot of damage, but Kingdra is a pretty nice insurance although it has to lock itself into Outrage.

    Tyranitar: Scizor is a pretty nice check to slower versions since it can damage them a lot with U-turn and gain easy momentum. Faster versions aren't really dangerous though and Scizor can still check them with Bullet Punch. Sand Stream can be very annoying though as we only have 2 Pokemon immune to it so obviously it can rack up a lot of damage pretty quickly, and wear down our bulkier Pokemon. Can be dangerous if let a lot of room.

    Vaporeon: Must be removed before Kingdra attempts to sweep because of its immense bulk, but not really a problem outside of that since both Celebi and Hydreigon can just shrug off Scald burns and hit it hard. One of both must be kept healthy though as it can really reduce the team's late game performance.

    Venusaur: Mixed versions could be a bit more dangerous due to the possibility of a surprise KO on Heatran but it is normally able to handle it. We have to be careful about Sleep Powder though. Hydreigon is also a pretty nice check since it resists pretty much every common move and can Fire Blast it. Scizor can revenge weak ones in a pinch.

    Virizion: Celebi is a pretty good answer to the physical versions of Virizion since they rarely ever carry super effective coverage on it. Special versions could be a lot more problematic though, as they carry Hidden Power Ice, but Celebi can tank a hit and severly injure it with Psychic leaving it open to our other team members.

    Volcarona: Volcarona isn't that big of a deal if it's a bulky version because Heatran can deal with it pretty easily, however, Hidden Power Ground variants are much more trouble. We have to keep Heatran's Air Balloon intact for it since otherwise it can really do some damage. However it's really important to keep Air Balloon intact against Sun teams because of Dugtrio and Hydreigon can take care of most other Sun threats in the meanwhile, so it's not that much of an issue.


    Importable
    Show Hide
    Kingdra (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Swift Swim
    EVs: 40 HP / 224 Atk / 16 Def / 228 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Substitute
    - Dragon Dance
    - Outrage
    - Waterfall

    Heatran (M) @ Air Balloon
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Fire Blast
    - Earth Power
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    Scizor (M) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SDef
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - U-turn
    - Superpower
    - Bullet Punch
    - Pursuit

    Hydreigon (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Rash Nature (+SAtk, -SDef)
    - Roost
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Blast
    - Draco Meteor

    Thundurus-T (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Volt Absorb
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Volt Switch
    - Thunderbolt
    - Focus Blast
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 232 HP / 252 SAtk / 24 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Recover
    - Psychic
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power [Fire]


    This team was certainly a whole lot of fun to make and it's really cool to use, because Kingdra is amazing, especially against Rain teams. All the members just have something special about them which make them contribute to the team in some way, making it fun to use. We really suggest to anyone who's tired of facing so much Rain teams to use it! Please rate our team!

    Credits to Keiran for the awesome banner and to aschefield101 from deviantart for these awesome pictures!
  3. Jimbon

    Jimbon FAKE TRAIN
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    496
    This is a very solid team, I have one very similar using Kingdra with Specially Defensive Heatran and Shaymin and I can definitely attest to how good Kingdra is in the current metagame. I can't really find a suggestion to help deal with individual Pokemon without damaging your synergy, but I do think that Specially Defensive Jirachi looks a little annoying. Given that these are usually used in Rain Teams, Heatran and Celebi will not be doing a lot with Fire Blast / Hidden Power [Fire] respectively, while Earth Power does not 2HKO. Hydreigon who also carries Earth Power is in fear of being paralyzed by Jirachi's Body Slam, which will make it hard for Hydreigon to keep dishing off hits, and ultimately gives Jirachi free time to set up more Wishes. To help with this, I highly recommend you change your Kingdra's EV spread to 40 HP / 224 Atk / 16 Def / 228 Spd. This set seems a lot more efficient for your team, and helps Kingdra set up a lot easier. 40 HP gives Kingdra 301 HP, enough to make 4 equal Substitutes and survive, which can be important when setting up against defensive threats. 16 Defence EVs combined with the 40 HP evs means Specially Defensive Jirachi fails to break Kingdra's Substitute with Body Slam, essentially giving you another free turn of set up against Jirachi. 228 Speed allows you to outspeed scarf base 110s such as Scarf Latios, arguably the fastest thing you will face, as you still outspeed Adamant Stoutland, Scarf Terrakion and Scarf Landorus with this set. The rest go into attack to maximize Kingdra's offensive capabilities. Overall really solid team, luvdisc'd!
  4. Lazyboy

    Lazyboy

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2010
    Messages:
    62
    Hey guys, really solid team here, not much to add to it. Kingdra and Hydreigon are really well positioned in this metagame.

    To start with, I'll agree with Jimbon in that a small investment in Kingdras defenses is probably worth it, as Jirachi is pretty common on rain teams. Being able to add to the number of pokes Kingdra can set up on can only be a good thing.

    Secondly, I'm a little iffy on the Celebi set. With max Sp.atk and a modest nature, you could drop Giga Drain for Leaf Storm. This gives Celebi a great STAB which hits much harder. For example:

    252 Sp.atk Leaf Storm vs 120/136 Conkledurr = 64.56-76.37%
    252 Sp.atk Leaf Storm vs 4 HP +1 Keldeo = 94.4-111.72%
    252 Sp.atk Leaf Storm vs 4 HP Terrakion (in sand) = 94.4-111.72%

    This allows you to beat many of the fighting types that Celebi needs to without relying on Psychic, freeing up a moveslot. I'd suggest replacing Psychic with U-turn. This not only allows you scout switches, often giving Kingdra or Scizor free switch ins against Heatran and Tyranitar respectively, but more importantly it gives you another member for your volt-turn core, which is useful for regaining momentum against Rotom-W, the flagship Volt Switcher.

    Apart from that, team looks nice. Definite luvdisc from me :)
  5. Zentrius

    Zentrius

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2012
    Messages:
    97
    I think this is an absolutely fantastic team, however I have one question: Wouldn't Nasty Plot be better over Recover on that Celebi set? You have Gigadrain anyways.

    Luvdisc'd!
  6. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    7,212
    Great team guys!

    Maybe you would benefit from EQ more than EP. With a Rash (the one that lowers Defense) nature, you do 49% min to 252 HP Jirachi, 46% min to 252 HP Ttar, and 97% min to 252 HP Heatran, which is very helpful, 'cause it means that Jirachi won't be able to win even if it gets lucky or you are at +2, and that Ttar has a good chance to get 2hkoed by DM + EQ. For example if SubCM Jirachi comes in as you use DM, then you can hit it with EQ, instead of going to Kingdra and risking to eat a Thunder. It also catches many Ground weak pokes that think you are weak at -2 SpA by surprise.
  7. Jirachee

    Jirachee Kaleidoscope
    is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    RMT Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2010
    Messages:
    1,731
    Hey guys thanks for the rates, they're always appreciated.

    @Jimbon: This new EV spread looks extremely interestin as we don't really lose power with it and gain a new set up fodder. This is definetly something we'll try out and it looks insane. SpD Jirachi wasn't that much of an issue but it's always annoying since it spreads paralysis around, especially those with Body Slam since Thundurus-T can't absorb their Thunder (Wave). Thanks a lot!

    @Lazyboy: Leaf Storm is definetly interesting since it kinds of compensate for the loss of Psychic, with the added bonus of OHKOing the always dangerous Terrakion. U-turn could really be an interesting option since it allows scouting etc.. Thank you!

    @Zentrius: Nasty Plot is a great move however our Celebi's goal is not to sweep but rather supporting Kingdra in its sweep and ensuring Fighting attackers and pretty much everything else it checks can't break this team. Recover is very important for that since Giga Drain's recovery is often not enough. Thanks anyway!

    @Alexwolf: We've actually never even thought about Earthquake on Hydreigon but it seems like a very good idea. Earth Power was somewhat of a given since it's a special attacker but you seem to be right about Earthquake being more effective. We'll definetly test it! Thank you!
  8. Megan_Fox

    Megan_Fox

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2009
    Messages:
    928
    Hey, rather than EP or EQ, why not run Superpower with a Rash nature on Hydreigon? It lets you OHKO Tyranitar, hits through Balloon mons and hits Chansey and Blissey while hardly missing anything.
  9. Lazyboy

    Lazyboy

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2010
    Messages:
    62
    Superpower is probably a good shout, hitting ferrothorn in rain makes Kingdras job a hell of a lot easier. Losing the super effective hit on Jirachi shouldn't be too bad as the new Kingdra spread means you can set up on it as long as you can avoid getting parahaxed.
  10. -Rockstar-

    -Rockstar-

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2010
    Messages:
    239
    The new Kingdra EVs from Jimbon looks great.
    Heatran, Thundurus and Scizor can all deal with Ferrothorn decent so id rather keep Earth Power/EQ.
    Jirachi pretty much covered everything else
    Thanks for the rates.
  11. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    7,212
    You are talking about Specially Defensive Jirachi, while the one that he wants to check with Hydreigon is the SubCMRachi, so a ground move is necessary.
  12. Jirachee

    Jirachee Kaleidoscope
    is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    RMT Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2010
    Messages:
    1,731
    I'd just like to add that Fire Blast actually hits Ferrothorn harder than Superpower even in the rain, because of Hydreigon's much higher Special Attack. A ground move is pretty much a need on our Hydreigon because we need to check Rain CM Jirachi. Thanks for the rate.
  13. Shining_Latios

    Shining_Latios

    Joined:
    May 5, 2010
    Messages:
    1,425
    Hey really good team you guys got here, but I do have one suggestion. I think you should try out Thunder Wave > Psychic on Celebi. Since you are trying to support Kingdra in its sweep, Thunder Wave can really make the job easier in setting up a Substitute or a Dragon Dance on Kingdra if the opponent gets paralyzed that turn. Hope I helped.
  14. forestflamerunner

    forestflamerunner Ain't no rest for the wicked

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2010
    Messages:
    330
    Hi. I really like this team. However, as you already noted, it does have some trouble with stall. To remedy this, you may want to replace fire blast with taunt onhydreigon. Yes, you do lose supereffective coverage on skarmory and ferrothorn and scizor, but the former two are kinda shut down by taunt anyways and you can easily wear then down while they are basically useless, while it seems scizor is handled by the rest of the team fairly well. Taunt also helps you deal with the#1 colossul prick in this metagame, parashuffler Dragonite Just a suggestions for your team and once again, great job
  15. -Rockstar-

    -Rockstar-

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2010
    Messages:
    239
    @Shining Latios:Thunder Wave sounds cool but Kingdras great typing usually gets it one set up opportunity while Psychic helps Celebi take on Breloom, Keldeo and Toxicroak much better and is also a good neutral STAB dealing nice damage to dragons if if we really need to.For some reason people dont expect Psychic too getting a surprise KO sometimes so thats a neat bonus.Thanks for the suggestion though.

    @forestflamerunner:Taunt seems like a cool idea, we lose out on some coverage like you mentioned but it will make playing against stall easier, I'll be testing this out later today.Thanks for the rate.
  16. Elephant

    Elephant

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2012
    Messages:
    26
    hey seems like a pretty solid team. one thing i suggest is to try out expert belt hydreigon. it still packs quite a punch with its moves and can also bluff a choice item, thus leading out walls like skarmory or ferrothorn so kingdra can make a clean sweep.
  17. Jamiroquai

    Jamiroquai

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2012
    Messages:
    58
    Possibly THE most solid team I've seen on here, awesome ! Stall's fairly uncommon, now, but I've just started using it for the first time in BW. You don't have huge problems, 3 of your pokes arn't affected by T spikes, and you have solid counters to pretty much all stallers, Hydregion is an awesome counter to some big threats as mentioned.

    One problem I can see is a SS Cloyster, it can outspeed your entire team, with Super effective coverage on 4/6. He's fairly uncommon and to be honest dealing with him shouldn't be too hard, Scizor's a pretty solid counter outside of rain, Kingdra can also set up on him. I only mentioned because there's literally nothing else I could think of that can cause trouble to your team.

    How does the side function outside of rain ? You've got such good defensive synergy I'd imagine it's pretty good.

    Luvdisc'd for this one !
  18. -Rockstar-

    -Rockstar-

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2010
    Messages:
    239
    @Elephant-Thanks for the suggestion, while it seems cool to bluff a choice item abusing the raw power of life orb combined with Roost just helps us get so many extra KOs but I see where your coming from with the suggestion, I'll check out some calcs to see which Kos we miss out on.Thanks for rating.

    @Jamiroquai-Thanks for the nice words, SS Cloyster is a bit troublesome but like you said Scizor can counter it fairly well after SR Damage and in the rain Im pretty sure Kingdra can outspeed with Swift Swim (Correct me if im wrong), the team does function well outside of rain too, with Heatran being able to hold its own against sun teams and the fact Scizor can really shine vs sand makes the team work well.Thanks for the rate and Luvdisc.
  19. Jirachee

    Jirachee Kaleidoscope
    is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    RMT Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2010
    Messages:
    1,731
    Hey guys, thanks for the rates, they are really great and appreciated. Actually I'd like to say something about Shining Latios' suggestion because if we use it with Leaf Storm over Giga Drain to cover threats like Conkeldurr, Thunder Wave could really help us against opposing Latios by catching them on the switch, since Celebi is probably the best thing it can come on in this team. Since some Latios can be very threatning it seems to be an excellent idea and we'll make sure to give it a try. Rockstar pretty much covered everything else, thanks again.
  20. Gimmick

    Gimmick Electric potential

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    165
    I didn't think I'd ever do this and waste a post, but this team is just fantastic. I can't find any specific holes at all. The only way I could find any would be if I was theorymonning, as if I said "you seem to have trouble with Volcarona when Heatran goes down." Obviously, you can play around it, though. I really did just come here to say that I love this team. Luvdisc'd. :]
  21. Admiral Bobbery

    Admiral Bobbery

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2012
    Messages:
    53
    I know I'm new and my opinion doesn't mean much, but sweet damn that's a good team. The only thing I can really see being a problem is sun teams, but outside of Dugtrio and Sleep Powder users like Venusaur and the oft forgotten Liligant, they don't pose much of a threat when Heatran is around, and you've already detailed how you deal with those threats. I was going to suggest switching Thundurus-Therian's nature to modest, but, on second thought, having a way to revenge kill DD Salamence is extremely important. Jeez I reall can't think of anything else to say other than fantastic job! Luvdisc'd!
  22. Shining_Latios

    Shining_Latios

    Joined:
    May 5, 2010
    Messages:
    1,425
    Yeah and once you have a couple of Pokemon crippled from paralysis, it really does make life easier for Kingdra. Scizor can also benefit from this, forcing switches with U-turn. Glad I could help.
  23. -Rockstar-

    -Rockstar-

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2010
    Messages:
    239
    Well I've tested some changes and the new Kingdra EVs from Jimbon and the suggestion of EQ over EP on Hydreigon will be updated into the first post.And now that I look at T Wave on Celebi that way I'll give it a nice test on the ladder tonight.So thanks for those suggestions.

    @Gimmick and Admiral Bobbery:Thanks for the nice words :D
  24. -Rockstar-

    -Rockstar-

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2010
    Messages:
    239
    Made the changes to Hydreigon set and Jirachi has edited Kingdra's Evs
  25. ChaosNebula

    ChaosNebula

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2010
    Messages:
    207
    This team is amazing. How about adding an importable, so people can steal and use it?

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)