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Well-balanced 'bulk & recover' team

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Dan, Sep 14, 2012.

  1. Dan

    Dan

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2010
    Messages:
    6
    Hiya, long time stalker, relatively recent poster.

    Have been playing online quite a bit recently, so thought I'd see what you nice people thought of my team, and whether it can be improved. My first one of these for a very long time - I think this is only my second since 3rd gen lol, when I was both tiny and a much more serious player - so apologies if the style is a little clunky.

    [​IMG]
    Team Overview

    I had a few major goals when putting this team together: widespread resistance to entry hazards, universal self-healing, and strong synergy without a dependence on weather or other field effects. Basically my goal wasn't so much a stall team as a bulk team: direct attacking is the way I do my damage, and I'm big on set-up, but all of my Pokémon can take a few hits. For what it's worth I think this has been going well on the simulators: I'm not ranking obsessive but I don't think I've ever checked this team without it being around the top 5%, and certainly it feels like I'm winning more than I'm losing lol. As for the synergy stuff it's almost perfectly balanced on that weakness/resistance thing on Marriland, with only a single net weakness to Ice. Plus using a team-wide version of this tells me that only 4 Pokémon (excluding Uber and nfe) resist all the attacks of more than one of my Pokémon, and on all of these at least three of my Pokémon can score a super-effective attack. My own combined, automated threat list comes out with a good score, too. My big question with overall strategy is, I've used a load of measures and techniques for balance, am I missing an x-factor that holds this team back? Though of course, any advice is appreciated.

    Zapdos
    [​IMG]
    Volture (Zapdos) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    Evs: 252 HP / 6 Def / 252 SAtk
    Modest Nature (+SpA, -Atk)
    - Thunderbolt
    - Heat Wave
    - Hidden Power (Fighting)
    - Roost​

    This is supposed to be an anti-lead, and it tends to do pretty well at that. It beats all the weather openers except Ninetales (who gets Dragoknighted or Umbreowned) plus Ferrothorn and Cloyster. Technically Tyranitar is a problem the size of a 2HKO but HP Fighting tends not to be anticipated, and they typically Stealth Rock, giving me a chance to do significant damage and usually 2HKO them instead. Roost is worth a slot I think, it lets Zapdos keep going after the leads and means it can come back in the lategame from time to time.

    Jirachi
    [​IMG]
    Rosena (Jirachi) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    Evs: 252 HP / 6 Def / 252 SDef
    Sassy Nature (+SpD, -Spe)
    - Iron Head
    - Thunder
    - Ice Punch
    - Wish​

    Slightly modified version of your bog-standard Jirachi. I prefer Thunder to Body Slam for coverage reasons, and for the extremely satisfying KO on Skarmories that switch in thinking they counter me, or the ones that blow it out with Whirlwind. The accuracy drop is, I think, worth the synergy, and isn't even a thing if I'm facing rain. I ran Protect over Ice Punch for a while but it seemed over-cautious, and this helps me with Latis, which my team builder tells me in three kinds of ways are a problem for this team.

    Reuniclus
    [​IMG]
    Valjean (Reuniclus) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Magic Guard
    Evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 6 SDef
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Psychic
    - Focus Blast
    - Calm Mind
    - Recover​

    No tricks here, just a typical Reuniclus. Fits well with the bulk theme, and has power that I need. Doesn't actually help with coverage that much, but I need the extra kick sometimes, plus Magic Guard makes it the perfect general anti-stall.

    Dragonite
    [​IMG]
    Douglas (Dragonite) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Multiscale
    Evs: 252 HP / 44 Atk / 212 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpA)
    - Dragon Claw
    - Fire Punch
    - Dragon Dance
    - Roost​

    Again just the standard set, but it slots in well. My best counter to Genesect, who - depending on the set - does a lot of damage to this team otherwise. Does to special walls what Reuniclus does to physical ones, as long as they aren't carrying too much Ice. And obviously is very dangerous if I get a Dragon Dance in in the late midgame. You guys know how these things work, can't really say much more.

    Umbreon
    [​IMG]
    Richmond (Umbreon) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Synchronize
    Evs: 252 HP / 100 Atk / 156 SDef
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpA)
    - Payback
    - Curse
    - Heal Bell
    - Moonlight​

    Perhaps one of my less orthodox choices, but it is, in my opinion, very underrated this gen. His bulk is amazing and can take a hell of a lot on both physical and special sides, and very often even a U-turn just amounts to a free Curse. Close Combat is often a bit too much for him before he sets up but they're easy to see coming. His offensive stats are terrible, but Payback is an awesome move, which actually gives him pretty decent power, particularly when I get a curse or two in. And to cap it all, he can cleric, which this team badly needs. Moonlight versus Wish is a tricky decision with weather everywhere, but I think I prefer having the instant recovery, even if I can't use it in every match. If there's negative weather on the field I use him less as a midgame check, if I can, and save him for the late game when the Terrakions and Scizors of this world are hopefully out of the way. Very useful check, competent utility and not a bad Curser if he gets half a minute.

    Quagsire
    [​IMG]
    Pembroke (Quagsire) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Unaware
    Evs: 252 HP / 202 Def / 56 SAtk
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Scald
    - Earth Power
    - Ice Beam
    - Recover​

    I. love. this. guy. My team style has always left me a bit stuck when I make a bad prediction and get heavily set up on, and for ages I ran Haze Milotics to deal with this. But Quagsire fits this team synergy much better, and the set-ups I'm really scared of, like Swords Dance + Close Combat/Stone Edge and Dragon Dance + Outrage are mostly at least switched out and are often Burned or KOd. Plus he deals with Heatran like nothing else on this team, and generally acts as a check to many of the threats this team would otherwise have a problem with: Latis, Genesect, even sometimes Terrakion, though that's pretty context-dependent.

    Threats
    [​IMG]

    Not exhaustive obviously, but wanted to mention these guys specifically, as they've been giving me trouble. Would appreciate any advice, including changing a Pokémon or two, as long as it doesn't involve throwing the baby out with the bathwater lol.

    Latis

    Highlighted by my teambuilder as a major hole in this team, and I've had a lot of trouble in practice as well. Zapdos and Reuniclus can't touch them, Draco Meteor 1HKOs Dragonite, and Jirachi and Quagsire don't really have the bulk for the job, though if they've dropped stats from Draco Meteor they can occasionally get a revenge KO in. Umbreon beats them, just, but they run from him and if he goes they clean up in the late game. At a loss with this one, it's hard to see how to deal with it without damaging my coverage more generally.

    Genesect
    It's his diversity that kills me: it depends on the moveset but he potentially has a super effective on my whole team. It rarely carries Energy Ball so Quagsire does okay, but one counter isn't really enough. Umbreon can take most of its hits, including U-turn, but not Bug Buzz, and anyway he can't hit back. Dragonite and Reuniclus have little trouble if they've set up, but certainly can't set up on it unless I already know it isn't carrying Ice Beam/Bug Buzz. Jirachi's okay if it doesn't have Flamethrower. As you can tell, the problem isn't so much being able to beat it as scouting the moveset: most I come up against don't carry all these moves, but in telling what the gap is odds are I take a lot of damage. Any thoughts?

    Terrakion
    On paper, or at least on the paper I drew up the team with, this guy isn't much of a problem: Jirachi, Reuniclus and Quagsire can do substantial damage and actually resist a lot of the standard sets. But his power is just overwhelming, I can't switch in very safely, particularly if I've already taken a few hits, and my team's general lack of speed is a real problem here. If I get an early shot at it I can take it out, but in the mid to late game it can often walk all over me. Another one I'm finding it tricky to see an easy way out of.

    Gliscor
    Another I'm-fine-on-paper-but-getting-killed-in-practice, relative speed isn't something I've yet build into my threat calculator - it's quite complicated to do - and like with Terrakion that hole bites me here. Jirachi and Reuniclus obviously have very little trouble, and Dragonite can sometimes beat it if he starts from high health, but really 4 of my team just can't do anything, and that makes Gliscor very dangerous in the late game for me. Might be a case of changing a Pokémon here, what do you guys think?

    Export:
    Show Hide
    Evs: 252 HP / 6 Def / 252 SAtk
    Modest Nature (+SpA, -Atk)
    - Thunderbolt
    - Heat Wave
    - Hidden Power (Fighting)
    - Roost

    Rosena (Jirachi) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    Evs: 252 HP / 6 Def / 252 SDef
    Sassy Nature (+SpD, -Spe)
    - Iron Head
    - Thunder
    - Ice Punch
    - Wish

    Valjean (Reuniclus) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Magic Guard
    Evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 6 SDef
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Psychic
    - Focus Blast
    - Calm Mind
    - Recover

    Douglas (Dragonite) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Multiscale
    Evs: 252 HP / 44 Atk / 212 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpA)
    - Dragon Claw
    - Fire Punch
    - Dragon Dance
    - Roost

    Richmond (Umbreon) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Synchronize
    Evs: 252 HP / 100 Atk / 156 SDef
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpA)
    - Payback
    - Curse
    - Heal Bell
    - Moonlight

    Pembroke (Quagsire) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Unaware
    Evs: 252 HP / 202 Def / 56 SAtk
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Scald
    - Earth Power
    - Ice Beam
    - Recover


    Cheers for reading. Hoping you'll give a newcomer to the forum some patience, though don't hold back on the criticism lol, I can take it. Thanks much!
  2. Cinco Diablo

    Cinco Diablo formerly Dr Ciel

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2012
    Messages:
    1,228
    Hey there. That's a pretty cool team you got going on, I like the synergy between the pokes. I'd like to make a whole lot of suggestions that you can try that can help this team become better and reach its full potential. Onto the rate. Firstly, as you said, you have a Genesect weakness due to his large diversity, as it can easily its array of coverage moves to absolutely tear through your team. A suggestion to help your Genesect problem would be a Special Defensive Heatran over your current Umbreon set. With Heatran in your team, Genesect will have trouble getting through it even at +1 due to Heatrans solid Special Defense and can KO back with Lava Plume. Also with Heatran, it forms a solid duo with Dragonite, as they cover each others weaknesses, which is always a good thing, as many teams require synergy to be successful. Moving on to your more secondary weaknesses. You said you were weak to Gliscor, as 4 of your 6 Pokemon are relatively weak to it and like you said, can be a major pain in the late game when both your checks are down. To help solve your Gliscor problem, I would suggest that you use a Life Orb Mamoswine over your current Zapdos set. With Mamo in your team, you can easily OHKO Gliscor with Icicle Crash and it can even help your problems with the Lati twins as both are 2hkod by Ice Shard. Well, that's all I have to say for this team. I really hope my advice helped. Good luck and have fun with your team!

    Sets (open)
    [​IMG]
    Heatran @ Leftovers Lv. 100 -- Flash Fire
    Nature: Calm - EVs: 248 HP / 252 SDef / 8 Spd
    Toxic
    Protect
    Lava Plume
    Stealth Rock

    [​IMG]
    Mamoswine @ Life Orb Lv. 100 -- Thick Fat
    Nature: Adamant - EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Earthquake
    Superpower
    Ice Shard
    Icicle Crash


    ~Dr Ciel~
  3. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude based wooper #dealwithit
    is an official Team Rateris a Smogon Media Contributor
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2012
    Messages:
    1,200
    hey Dan welcome to smogon! (Although you have been a member for a while lol congrats on you first rmt ;)) and interasting theme you have for your team with all members having recovery moves.

    Despite having Reuniclus and Jirachi this team seems to really dislike entry hazards. Dragonites Multiscale gets broken from Stealth Rock, Zapdos gets 25% of his health taken of as well while Spikes and Toxic Spikes wear down Qaugsire and Umbreon quickly eliminating their walling capabilities. While being weak to hazards your team also doesn't have hazards letting your opponent's Volcarona and Dragonite set up with ease on this team. Your team also looks very rain weak with your only water resist being Dragonite who won't like taking the ice type moves commonly found on a rain team.

    To help your team get rid of its weakness to water-type moves and provide your team with a Rapid Spinner your team desperatly needs i suggest Defensive Starmie>Qaugsire Defensive Starmie gives you a good switch in to water-type moves and lets you Rapid Spin preventing your opponent from keeping his hazards up that threaten Dragonite, Umbreon and Zapdos. Starmie can also burn opponents with Scald and fits the whole 'Recover' theme of your team having acces to Recover. He handles Gliscor one of your mentioned threats as well. He is a great fit over Qaugsire but now unfortunatly it leaves your team open to a few strong physical attackers namely Terrakion. That is where my second change comes in.

    Ok now your team has a problem with Terrakion and to an extent Haxorus and Dragonite because Terrakion can out speed and hit every member of your team super effectivly while Haxourus and Dragonite's that carry Earthqauke can get past Jirachi after a boost or two and then proceed to use their powerful Dragon-Type attacks. To help with this probelm i suggest Skarmory>Umbreon Skarmory provides your team with a great physical wall and one that can stop Terrakion and Dragons dead while also being able to set up hazards this team needs and phazing out set up sweepers. Skamrory also has recovery in the form of Roost. Although Skarmory may not have the offensive potential of Umbreon 120 base power Brave Bird is nothing to underestimate and the Spikes he sets up for your team help Dragonite, or Reuniclus sweep late game. Although Skamrmory isn't a cleric like Umbreon you don't really need one with Natural Cure on Starmie, Substitute on Dragonite, Jirachi and Skarmory having a Steel-Type and Reuniclus having Magic Gaurd.

    Now your team still needs a pokemon to set up Stealth Rock and i think Jirachi is the perfect candidate. Stealth Rock>Ice Punch Is a good change because between Skarmory and Jirachi you have dragons covered pretty well. However if you really don't like Stealth Rock on Jirachi then you can put it on Skarmory over Spikes but i think Stealth Rock fits Jirachi perfectly. My only other suggestion is Body Slam>Thunder I understand the use of Thunder and how it is much better then Body Slam typing wise powerwise and that it hits on the special side but it has 70% accuracy and sometimes you cant afford it to miss like when you are versing a set up sweeper. Also Body Slam can parlyze ground-types while Thunder can't. If you are going with Body Slam this obviously mean use a Careful nature which lowens special attack and increase special defense.

    good luck with your team i hope i helped!

    Sets
    Show Hide

    [​IMG]
    Starmie @ Leftovers | Natural Cure
    Timid | 252 Hp / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    Scald | Psyshock | Rapid Spin | Recover
    [​IMG]
    Skarmory @ Leftovers | Sturdy
    Impish | 252 Hp / 232 Def / 24 Spe
    Spikes | Whirlwind | Brave Bird | Roost

    Tl;dr
    Show Hide


    Starmie--->Qaugsire

    Skarmory--->Umbreon

    Jirachi
    .Stealth Rock--->Ice Punch
    .Body Slam--->Thunder
    .Careful--->Sassy



    ~Superpowerdude
  4. Dan

    Dan

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2010
    Messages:
    6
    Thanks you guys! Been messing around with some of your ideas, and I like them. Hopefully you're still watching the thread lol, as It'd be nice to see what you think of what I came up with.

    @Dr Ciel, I love Heatran on this team, terrific synergy, thanks much for the suggestion. I was wondering what you think of this minor variant on Heatran > Umbreon:

    Richmond (Heatran) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flash Fire
    Evs: 252 HP / 248 SDef / 10 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SpD, -Atk)
    - Lava Plume
    - Earth Power
    - Toxic
    - Protect​

    I just felt like it needed more coverage, plus my team builder rightly pointed out that without Umbreon, Victini carves a massive V-shaped hole in this team. Considered Dark Pulse over Earth Power, as (you have to see it to believe it) damage calculations suggest that outside of rain he beats even Surf-carrying Latis if he has it, but in combination with my other new idea this works better. Incidentally, just having this on my team is enough to solve the Gliscor problem, as it allows me to run Substitute > Fire Punch on Dragonite. Plus if I give Dragonite Jolly and more Speed EVs, he has a much, much better chance with Gliscor and suddenly beats Latias, though not her brother.

    As for Mamoswine, I can definitely see why you suggested it and in terms of synergy it works, but I'm not sure about it for the lead slot: it's fairly common, relatively easily countered, and doesn't have brilliant coverage on common leads. I think Zapdos is better at giving me the early game momentum I'm used to with this team, and I hope the couple of changes I've suggested here allow me to deal with the Lati and Gliscor problems better anyway.

    @Superpowerdude, I agree with your assessment that I need some more physical bulk, Quagsire is good up to a point but you're right that sometimes he can't cut it when faced with a powerful Outrage, say, or Terrakion, which I've mentioned before. I have to say after playing this team a lot I don't agree with your assessment of my entry hazard problem: my Toxic Spikes immunity is pretty widespread and they can all recover off the damage. Also, I have very good coverage on most of the common users, and they often have trouble even getting the entry hazards on the field. In practice it hasn't really been a difficulty, it maybe compounds my problem when I'm already going to lose, but there haven't been many matches where it's been the deciding factor.

    As for the physical bulk thing, I'm gonna use Dr Ciel's Heatran, so Skarmory doesn't really have good synergy once that's on the team, and can't do a lot of the things that Quagsire is good at. Further suggestions would be appreciated, but I was wondering what you guys thought of this rather unorthodox choice (hear me out on this one lol):

    Pembroke (Tangrowth) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    Evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 6 SDef
    Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spe)
    - Leaf Storm
    - Payback
    - Power Swap
    - Synthesis​

    Yeah, I'm actually suggesting Tangrowth > Quagsire, by all means tell me if this is mental. I know it's not the best Pokémon as a standalone, but the synergy is very good here, and it compliments Heatran in much the same way Dragonite does, though you could hardly call their roles similar. This Tangrowth set has better physical bulk than Skarmory, and while it doesn't have Skarmory's resistances its typing fits a lot better with the team in general. Power Swap is a sort of pseudo-Unaware, it works very well with Leaf Storm, and might well be unexpected. I can easily take even a boosted Outrage with this set and then steal the Dance to hit them back very hard. I'm not obsessing over Payback, I swear, but Power Swap suits having both physical and special attacks, and Payback provides very good coverage both for Tangrowth alone and team-wide. Plus I think with this I solve my Lati problem once and for all. Obviously this deals with Terrakion as well: a Choice-boosted X-Scissor hurts, though actually it's only a 3HKO, and obviously Leaf Storm obliterates it, even if the first hit on it is from -2. It can't take out the Lucarios and Bisharps of this world like Quagsire could, but it can take their hits, and I have other counters.

    Thanks much!

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