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We've got the bomb--a Sun TR team (really)

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by StarmanXL, Nov 25, 2012.

  1. StarmanXL

    StarmanXL

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2007
    Messages:
    1,444
    So I was gettin' kinda sick of the ladder being a speedfest and I mentioned on IRC that I might try a TR team and someone suggested I run Victini in Sun TR, so I did.

    So far the team has been doing surprisingly well (and keep in mind when I say "surprisingly well" I mean I have a W:L ratio that's above 1:1), although there are some major flaws that I've seen. The idea is to turn the speedy nature of the metagame against it by using trick room to neuter opposing hyper offense as well as counter rain. The other idea is to plow through everything I can with Victini's V-Create and clean up what's left. As you might expect, this team focuses heavily on offense, using the bulk and typings of the pokemon more to pivot and regain/maintain momentum rather than to actually wall anything. Gimmicky, yes, but it's been serving me decently so far.

    At a glance:
    Show Hide
    [​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]


    [​IMG] (Victini) @ Flame Plate
    Trait: Victory Star
    EVs: 252 Atk / 8 Def / 248 HP
    Brave Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - V-create
    - Bolt Strike
    - Brick Break
    - Trick Room

    The star of the show, Victini's task is incredibly simple: get in, spam V-Create, take two or three pokemon with you before you go. Admittedly, the little guy has no staying power, especially with hazards and LO recoil, and is rather hard to get in safely, but once he does I can count on one hand the number of safe switch ins. V-Create is especially useful because the more I spam it, the "faster" I get.

    Using the standard TR set with Bolt Strike over Fusion Bolt because fuckin' 130 BP physical Electric move hell fuckin' yeah. Flame Plate over life orb because V-Create is the main attack and I really don't wanna kill myself with recoil damage, especially with SR and stuff. I typically don't TR with Victini itself, but he can typically get in on Ninetales (assuming it's not Hypnomiss) or Breloom if it can't Spore things, and from there cause havok. The resistance to Bullet Punch, Mach Punch, and Ice Shard really helps so that it's hard for the enemy to revenge me under TR (Extremespeed pokemon can fuck themselves).

    [​IMG] (Ninetales) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 136 HP / 252 SAtk / 120 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Sunny Day
    - SolarBeam
    - Flamethrower
    - Will-O-Wisp

    If you're going to use a V-Create spamming Victini, you might as well have sun to go with it. Ninetales' sole purpose is to keep Sunny day up (and sorta kinda check Volcarona but he can't really). Ninetales is also my main pivot for Genesect and Venusaur since it usually resists what they've got to throw out and can roast them in return. I don't get to keep Ninetales in very often, but fire boasted STAB moves hurt. Also with sun up Rotom-W can't one-shot me with Hydro Pump and I can ruin it with Solarbeam.

    Also, I should point out that I rarely lead with Ninetales. I don't beat Politoed in the initial weather war and it's not worth it to risk losing him early on. I usually switch him in a few turns later, sometimes after the initial TR.

    [​IMG] (Bronzong) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SDef
    Relaxed Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Trick Room
    - Stealth Rock
    - Gyro Ball
    - Earthquake

    My first real Trick Room user, Bronzong is the most "utility" pokemon on the team. Unfortunately, that means that it's sometimes hard to regain momentum or switch off from it when is uses TR. It makes up for this, though, for being damn good at what it does. I chose it specifically for its ability to be a sturdy TR set up as well as help mitigate the fact that my team was, more or less, Tyranitar bait. I also lead with it occasionally if I don't spy any opposing weather users or Magnezones.

    Bronzong's typing and ability is a godsend: being able to resist EdgeQuake (especially since two members of my team are weak to it) allows it to switch into a lot of pokemon, such as Landorus-T, Cloyster, Dragonite, etc etc and quickly get off Trick Room. While it may not be the strongest, Gyro Ball hurts a decent amount and EQ is mainly there to keep Heatran and Magnezone from killing the shit outta it. SR is crucial for this team, since it ruins Multiscale and allows Victini, Slowking, and Garchomp to get secured kills when they would have failed to OHKO. Still might try a Heatran here though, I dunno.

    [​IMG] (Slowking) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Trick Room
    - Fire Blast
    - Psyshock
    - Surf

    My second real Trick Room user, and one of my personal favorite pokemon of all time. Slowking is one of my biggest checks to rain, being able to take boosted surfs and the like like a champ thanks to her typing and sp.def. She often comes in on water attacks directed at Victini and Ninetales and the fire attacks directed at Bronzong and Breloom. Having Regenerator doesn't hurt at all.

    I had considered using a Jellicent instead, given my Volcarona weak--it would still make a decent enough counter to rain teams--but I ultimately decided on Slowking for one big reason: unlike Bronzong, Slowking does pose a significant offensive presence on my team and I often use her to sweep or clean up what Victini leaves behind. Jellicent can't really do this as effectively: for one, Slowking has better Sp.Atk, and secondly, Slowking has a far more exploitable movepool. Jellicent is stuck with Surf/Water Spout, maybe Energy Ball and Shadow Ball, the first of which doesn't do me a whole lotta good as a sole attacking type if sun is up, the other two don't really help my team that much. Putting Jellicent on here would compound the problem I have with Bronzong and slow down my team a lot, although if it is really really needed I will replace Slowking for it.

    Anyway, as I said Slowking cleans up. The ability to Fire Blast is a pretty big one, as it allows Slowking to easily clean out Ferrothorn which outspeeds the rest of my team in TR as well as kill Scizor and Genesect. Plus, with Sun being up, she can exploit the fire boost, and it hurts. Psyshock is there for STAB and to kill Keldeo, Tentacruel, Venusaur, and and so forth--it does more to Politoed and Vaporeon than grass knot, I think, although I don't know if I should replace it for Psychic. Surf is so that Slowking can still function well in rain--in fact, she can abuse the rain boosted surfs to put the hurt on pokemon that don't resist it. It also allows me to do something against Heatran, although the Toxic+Protect variants are still a bitch.

    [​IMG] (Breloom) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 Def
    Brave Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Mach Punch
    - Spore
    - Bullet Seed
    - Swords Dance

    With rather middling speed, Breloom is a pretty good choice for trick room, and helps me deal with bulky waters as well as the standard panic button in priority. It hurts to not have Toxic Heal, but the priority is a must for revenge kills and for when TR is down--I don't get to SD often (usually on the switch after I've spored something) but +2 Technician Mach Punch hurts. I use Breloom mainly to deal with bulky waters and Hippowdown and Tyranitar, the two weather users who cause my team problems (Hippowdon not so much since Slowking murders it but you get the idea). I typically bring out Breloom early or lead with it to get a quick Spore on the opponent, giving me ample opportunity to set up TR. However, even with 252 HP it can't take a helluva lotta hits so I have to be careful with how I get it in.

    [​IMG] (Garchomp) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Rough Skin
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Jolly Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - Outrage
    - Fire Blast

    I used to have a Scizor here, mainly for emergency priority and checking Ttar, but I found that it wasn't doing very much for the team, and what more, it was only aggravating my Volcarona and Heatran problems since it shared a fire weakness with Breloom, making it even more difficult to switch in. On the advice of Sciztar I switched Scizor out for a CS Garchomp, and so far it's been working rather well.

    Naturally, I can't use Garchomp with Trick Room active, as even if it didn't have the scarf it would just be way, way too fast. It also admittedly doesn't take boosted rain attacks all that great (not like Scizor did in the first place but whatever), but it does provide me something very valuable, and that is a panic button for when TR is down. The choice scarf lets me outspeed and revenge kill threats such as Scarf Genesect and +1 Volcarona that would be too risky to keep any of my other pokemon in on. Not only that, but it also provides some much needed resistances, namely another fire resistance, an electricity immunity (let's face it, Breloom is not the bulkiest thing in the world to be taking repeated Thunders), and a nice rock resistance. It also threatens the fuck outta Heatran which my team has trouble with, so that's always a plus.

    Typically I run Garchomp mid to late game in order to get clean up or revenge kills; occasionally I'll lead with it if I don't think Breloom, Bronzong, or Ninetales are safe choices. While Garchomp is mainly a panic button, I should point out that Outrage isn't something to take lightly, and I can and often do use Garchomp to sweep late game, especially after Victini or Slowking have punched holes in the enemy team.



    With the addition of Garchomp, my Heatran and Volcarona problems have been mitigated, but not entirely eliminated of course. Also I should point out that Starmie and Rotom-W can be annoyances since my Slowking can't hit the first for anything over 40% damage at best, and the other one loves the Volt Switch and WoW, making it hard to safely get in on it. Also I get wrecked by other more dedicated TR teams (ESPECIALLY TR Victini, 'cause jesus nothing takes V-Create very well and it can get in easy on my Breloom and Ninetales) but fortunately these are rare. However, I've still probably missed something, so any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated. After all, this team is still very experimental.
  2. Mysteryracer

    Mysteryracer

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2012
    Messages:
    56
    Glad to see another TR user in the mix nowadays :) And incorporating Sun into the mix is quite ambitious! However, there is a glaring problem that I notice that will end up crippling your team, and though I hate to be the showstopper here, that problem that will cripple your team... is your main star. Even with dropping his Speed IV's and EV's all the way to zero, he is simply too fast for Trick Room. Slowbro, Reuniclus, Jellicent, etc. can counter him incredibly easy under Trick Room because his speed is too high. Even for Breloom, I feel that its base 70 Speed is too fast for Trick Room. Scizor is also too fast for Trick Room as well. You would be wasting opportunities you would have otherwise if you utilized Trick Room for Pokemon that can take advantage of it better. I do praise your attempt to check Rain teams, but I feel that there's a much better way to check Rain teams, exploit Sunny Day, and make your Trick Room team more effective overall.

    This is how I would rework the team if it were my own. First, as I've stated, I don't feel Victini is the star of the show. And it seems you have a major weakness to Heatran and Volcarona. So if you can't beat them, then why not join them?

    Replace Victini with:

    [​IMG]
    Heatran @ Air Baloon
    Trait: Flash Fire
    Quiet Nature
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Def
    IVs: Spe 0
    Fire Blast
    Hidden Power Ice
    Earth Power
    Stealth Rock/SolarBeam


    Take note that Heatran has lower speed than Victini and higher SpA than it as well. Also, Heatran carries Earth Power, giving it the ability to sweep opposing Heatrans under Trick Room. As I had said before, I do feel that 70 base speed or above is not good for Trick Room, but it is possible that Heatran can carry some special niches on this team, considering there isn't really much powerful Fire sweepers that can take advantage of Trick Room, if only somewhat. Heatran also has access to Flash Fire, to protect your team from opposing Sunny Day teams.


    At first when I saw Bronzong, I felt accepting of it. But then I realized something that would completely set yourself up. Say you Drought with Ninetails, then Switch to Bronzong. If any of your opponent's Pokemon that is currently out have a Fire Type attack, then your Bronzong is screwed, considering it has a weakness to Fire Type, and the opponent will get a Fire Type boost from their attack, your Bronzong would be 0TK'ed. Threats include Salamence, Genesect. any Pokemon with Hidden Power Fire, etc. You need a setter that can resist opposing Sunny Day counters and can resist Rain Dance teams. One thing I saw was that you criticized the Pokemon that may help your entire team's problems. You underestimated it, but little did you realize that it has an ability that will save you a bunch... Water Absorb.

    Replace Bronzong with:

    [​IMG]

    Jellicent (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 248 HP / 100 Def / 160 SDef
    IVs: Spe 0
    Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spe)
    - Scald
    - Recover
    - Trick Room
    - Will-O-Wisp

    Jellicent doesn't have the same movepool that Slowking does... but you'd be underestimating him if you said that. Because Jellicent has something vital that Slowking does not; the reliable defenses to make itself a perfect Trick Room setter. Jellicent can constantly switch in and provide your team with Trick Room due to its high defenses. It can also absorb opposing Rain Dance team attacks, and isn't weak to Volcarona.


    With Jellicent to set up the Trick Room, you want a different setter who isn't crippled by electric attacks and can take advantage of Sunny Day. While Slowking can take advantage of Sunny Day just fine, its potential to use isn't as good as another popular user, Reuniclus.

    Replace Slowking with:

    [​IMG]
    Reuniclus @ Life Orb
    Trait: Magic Guard
    Quiet Nature
    EVs: 96 HP / 160 Def / 252 SpA
    IVs: Spe 0
    Trick Room
    Psyshock
    Shadow Ball
    Hidden Power Fire

    While Slowking can use Fire Blast, which has twice the base power of a HP Fire, and also has Regenerator, Reuniclus also has another weapon of his own; Magic Guard. Reuniclus not only can resist entry hazards and isn't crippled by electric type moves, but doesn't take any damage from Life Orb either. Reuniclus has the tools to cause just as great damage at higher accuracy and carry more resistances.


    Your choice to include Breloom on your team is questionable. It does have Spore, but I should let you in on a little secret. If there's one Pokemon that's designed for Trick Room, it's

    Replace Breloom with:

    [​IMG]
    Conkeldurr @ Toxic Orb
    Brave Nature
    EVs: 128 HP / 252 Atk / 128 SpD
    IVs: Spe 0
    Hammer Arm
    Mach Punch
    Ice Punch
    Facade


    Conkeldurr is the definition of what using Trick Room is all about. Not only does he take down opposing Heatran, but can pretty much sweep almost ANY Pokemon under Trick Room. He isn't crippled by common weaknesses on your team, and you'll come back using him time and time again to destroy almost every team that stands in your way.


    The four Pokemon I had placed in wasn't a wild guess. It's actually a model I had built for Trick Room specifically designed to accommodate to most weather Trick Room teams. The four Pokemon provide synergy for each other while exploiting Sunny Day, etc. And you won't have to worry about any counters. The last Pokemon varies based on what weather condition you're using, and since you're using Sunny Day, your late game sweeper is going to be:

    Replace Scizor with:


    [​IMG]
    Genesect @ Expert Belt
    Trait: Download
    Naive Nature
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    U-Turn
    Ice Beam
    Flamethrower
    Thunderbolt/Thunder


    What's this? Speedy Pokemon on a Trick Room team? Yes, you need a high speed late game sweeper on your team, because you WILL run out of setters, and you don't want your last Pokemon to have piss poor speed. Also, you don't want Taunt leads to screw your team over. Genesect can effectively counter Rain Dance teams AND take advantage of Sunny Day. Thunderbolt or Thunder is your choice, depending on how threatening you think Rain Dance teams will be.

    Ohh yeah, your Ninetales set is fine, BTW.

    This is an example of an effective Sunny Day Trick Room Team. It takes advantages of Sunny Day, provides you with endless coverage, against most threats, and can sweep more powerfully. Hope this all helps.
  3. StarmanXL

    StarmanXL

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2007
    Messages:
    1,444
    Er, while I do appreciate the help, you'll understand why I would be hesitant to replace 5/6ths of my pokemon--or rather, my entire team. It seems you have a team together that works decently, since, as you said, it's a model you have. But it's your team, not mine. You'll forgive me if I seem rude here, but the point is to help me modify my current team to fix its problems and achieve its goals more effectively, not completely replace it. Besides, while you raise some good points (I've noticed the Bronzong situation myself, which is why I don't lead with Ninetales very often, and I'll consider that Conkeldurr) there are a lot of things you don't address, namely why your team works so great together, or any potential weaknesses I would incur by using it.

    As I said, before replacing virtually my entire team, I would like it if you at least tried to augment what it currently has. Like I said, it's supposed to be based around Victini and V-Create murder. You say it's too fast for TR and that other slow pokemon will murder it, and I'll give you that, but what pokemon exactly? Reuniclus and Slowbro are virtually nonexistant on ladder, and Jellicent would still give that team you posed a ton of problems (Jellicent and Reuniclus can't switch in if it runs Shadow Ball, walls Heatran esp if rain is up, Conkeldurr can't touch it). And you keep saying these things are too fast, but the thing is, the metagame is way fast. Scarfers and high base speeds are everywhere, and those are the pokemon I'm trying to beat. There aren't a lot of other popular heavily offensive pokemon that are slower than most of my team, and some of them (esp Ferrothorn and Scizor) get roasted by most of my team, so...yeah, I don't know.

    Sorry if I seem argumentative, but like I said, I don't feel like replacing the entire team. Now if it were something really gimmicky and completely unviable, I'd understand, but I've been actually using this team and actually winning with it, so I know that, while it's not perfect, it's not so unusable that it needs complete overhaul either.
  4. superstar

    superstar

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2011
    Messages:
    318
    I like this team. Won't ever peak number one of course, but I think it has a chance to be pretty successful. Trick room is a lot of fun!

    Something you can consider on Slowking over Surf is Yawn. If you Yawn on the last turn of Trick Room they are wither forced to switch out or sleep, letting you set up TR again.

    On Bronzong, Earthquake is nearly mandatory. It let's you KO Heatran and Magnezone.

    Life Orb in Victini will make it die very rapidly. Since V-create has such absurd power already, I'd suggest running a Fighting Gem to kill Heatran or Expert Belt to boost your coverage moves. Flame plate or Muscle Band would also be viable if you find yourself needing a bit more VCreate power.

    Finally, I can recommend Conkeldurr over Breloom. The set Mysteryracer provided in his "rate" works very well. You can then sponge attacks much better due to the improved bulk. He also benefits more from Trick room than Breloom, since only Spore and Bullet Seed benefit on your current set.
  5. Sciztar

    Sciztar

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2012
    Messages:
    259
    Hey StarmanXL, I wanted to rate this team to help you out since I can tell you really need some help with your team, so lets get down to business.

    I don't blame you for being hesitant to make changes when someone suggestions switching out your whole team. Even though I've done the same thing, I'll try to give you some helpful suggestions.


    • First, Ninetales is too fast for Trick Room, but since your team is a Sun Trick Room team you can keep Ninetales. I think you should just keep Ninetales the way it is, because you won't win the weather wars, b/c Politoed and Tyranitar will get their weather up. But if you choose he or she to be your lead you're going to need to modify the EVs.

    Here is the modify version of ninetales if you want it?

    Show Hide
    [​IMG]

    (Ninetales) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk
    Quiet Nature
    - Sunny Day
    - SolarBeam
    - Flamethrower
    - Will-O-Wisp



    • I have no idea what he is talking about. He needs to read my OU Guide to Trick Room. Base 70 is not too fast for Trick Room, plus Scizor is perfect for Trick Room. But, since this is Sun Team fire type moves will be boosted. You have 2 Pokemon weak to fire type moves will more than likely be OHKOed. I would suggestion dropping Scizor, the reason why is because I don't see any use in Scizor. Breloom does mostly what your Scizor was doing. Plus Breloom counters Rain teams better in BW2 than Scizor. So switch out Scizor for Trick Room Reuniclus.

    Here is the set I recommend, and the set I always use on Reuniclus.
    Show Hide
    [​IMG]
    Reuniclus @ Life Orb
    Trait: Magic Guard
    Quiet Nature
    EVs: 96 HP / 160 Def / 252 SpA
    IVs: Spe 0
    Trick Room
    Psyshock
    Shadow Ball
    Hidden Power Fire

    With the 160 Def Ev's it lets you tank an Outrage from Choice Banded Dragonite plus many more physical attacks. Hidden Power Fire is almost necessary for abusing the sun and for Genesect and Scizor as they are both OHKO.Since you have breloom as your Fighting type, you can sacrifice Focus Miss, but you lose coverage on Tyranitar.



    • I believe a revenge killer would be great for this team. Because your team needs to be able to function once trick Room is down. I feel that Terrakion and Salamence will be a problem for this team, so I suggest you add Choice Scarf Garchomp. But your team is going to need Stealth Rock to get the much needed KOs. So I would suggest
    Show Hide

    [​IMG]
    Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Rough Skin
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Jolly (+Spe, -SpA)
    Outrage
    Fire Blast
    Stone Edge
    Earthquake

    With the Choice Scarf on Garchomp you are faster than Genesect and can KO it with Fire Blast.



    • On Breloom, I think you should switch out Focus Punch for Swords Dance. The reason why I say that is, once you spore a Pokemon they will be force to switch out which gives you a free turn to get a +2 in Attack which gives Seed Bomb and Mach Punch a great boost along with Technician boosting them.

    Show Hide
    Breloom) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 Def
    Brave Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Mach Punch
    - Spore
    - Bullet Seed
    - Swords dance


    Hoped I helped.
  6. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast Deer Lord
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    I'd like to second Sciztar's suggestions. Victini and Reuniclus make a fantastic offensive Trick Room core, and ScarfChomp is nice as a panic button or to clean house once you've done some damage. If you use HP Fire / Shadow Ball Reuniclus, this team is going to have major issues with Heatran, so use Earthquake on Bronzong.

    EDIT: Oh, forgot about Bolt Strike > Fusion Bolt on Victini. It's not nature locked, thankfully, so yay event moves!
  7. StarmanXL

    StarmanXL

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2007
    Messages:
    1,444
    Thanks for the suggestions, guys. I'm going to try out these things, see what works. One concern I do have, though, is that if I drop Scizor for Reuniclus I'm going to get shit on by Ttar pretty bad, so I dunno. Also, Sciztar, who would you suggest I drop for ScarfChomp? I can't really drop Victini or Ninetales for obvious reasons, Bronzong I need for SR. I guess there's Slowking but I lose out on taking RD teams as good, and I can't run conkeldurr, Garchomp, and Reuniclus all at the same time then.

    I didn't know Bolt Strike was released, I'll change to that. I doubt I'll have too many problems with the paralysis chance, since things should be dead when I hit them. Also, on an aside, it turns out that with my Bronzong's EV spread, it doesn't OHKO Heatran with EQ, which is really problematic if they have a balloon. I have to spend a turn popping it with Gyro Ball, and then I need to EQ twice, but by then I'm roasted...It also doesn't OHKO Magnezone either. Should I change the EVs?
  8. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent come at me winter
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    I really like this team; it's cute and innovative. However, I think that you can replace Scizor. Your team would love to have an immunity to Fire-type moves, as well as another nuke Pokemon. Therefore, I'd like to recommend choice specs heatran. Heatran gets eruption as an event move in the fourth gen, but it's not widely used since it's forced to run a quiet nature. Which of course is perfect for trick room. Simple moveset of eruption, fire blast, earth power and hp grass with quiet and max hp, max SpA provides you with an immediate powerhouse.

    Oh yeah, speaking of event moves, dont run bolt strike on victini, as iirc you can only use it with a lax nature, which is something i'm sure you dont want to do. Once again, nice team, i may steal this and try it out...

    Edit: oh not nature locked? Sweet, gonna now use a victini myself for sure
  9. Mysteryracer

    Mysteryracer

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2012
    Messages:
    56
    I don't doubt that you'd win some matches with your team. But the purpose of RMT it to try to make your team better. And the underlying concept is that there are other Pokemon that can take advantage of Trick Room and Sunny Day, but do it much better than the majority of your team members can. What I'm saying is, it is the difference from your team being a good team, and your team being an unstoppable force. Victini is not designed for Trick Room (maybe Breloom might, idk). There are better options, and to make matters worse, you have no late game sweepers to back you up. What's stopping an opponent from pulling off a Taunt and crippling your entire team? Victini only has 100 base Attack and Special attack, which is not enough to sweep with Trick Room. Because Trick Room only lasts for 5 turns, you want to savor every turn you can; you don't have time to play around with silly moves like Spore on Breloom or other support tactics. You need to get out there and sweep. That is what Trick Room is all about.

    Your Slowking doesn't help with coverage either, due to Volcarona flying around in the metagame. If you have the Trick Room up, you might be able to check for it, but there are much more reliable checkers. Another problem with your team is you have a whopping 3 Pokemon who are weak to Fire Type attacks. That's bad, considering your Ninetales' Drought ability will give your opponent the Trump card over you if they carry a Genesect or a Volcarona on their team. Bronzong, Slowking, and Victini will be destroyed by the two before they even get the chance to set up, partly due to you powering them up with Sunny Day. I recognize that you said you probably wouldn't lead with Ninetales, but if that's the case, then why are you trying to incorporate weather in the first place? Don't you want the best of both worlds rather than having to play little games?

    You asked why my combination worked so well, and I'll answer why; coverage. You can't expect to set up Trick Room and sweep without it. You have a whopping 3 Fire Weaknesses and nothing to cover for it, so that's why I suggested Heatran, but apparently you don't want that coverage... so okay. Then you also have whopping 3 Genesect and Volcarona Weaknesses as well as 2 Water weaknesses, so I suggested Jellicent to replace Slowking, because he canset up Trick Room and cover much better than Slowking can, but I guess you don't want coverage against two of the metagame's most unstoppable forces or Rain Dance counters either... so okay. The four Pokemon suggested is not simply "my team". They are actually what are called Trick Room cores. They are basically sets of Trick Room users and sweepers that provide perfect synergy for each other. If you don't want to use my cores, then at least make sure you have your own, because you will need them.

    I don't mean to be blunt, trust me, but your I current setup is the equivalent of a group of robbers that would rob a store in broad daylight rather than wait til nighttime to sneak through the back door. Your team is powerful to the bare eye, but you begin to notice that it practically does nothing to check for the most common of counters in the metagame that can cripple it entirely. If you're hellbent on using Victini, then at least do something to work your team around him, because your current setup isn't going well. If you really want Victini that bad, then some other Pokemon will need to go. I would replace Bronzong with evolite Porygon2. That way, your team won't be crippled by Volcarona. Also, Victini can cover for Porygon2 and vice versa. And I urge you to at least find a Pokemon that can use Curse and Baton Pass into Victini to use Trick Room (maybe Gliscor, due to its perfect coverage against Volcarona). That way, you can at least utilize Victini how you want to. If you're going to use Victini, then you need to make sure your team has the right synergy for him. If you can't find a way to provide good coverage on your team for your setters, your team will be doomed to fail.
  10. Mysteryracer

    Mysteryracer

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2012
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    Source:
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3473855

    Source:
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3469141

    I know this is a bit off topic, but I'd prefer not to get completely back-slapped by somebody who I in fact studied Trick Room off of. I have read your thread, but I've also read your advice that you had given me. You had told me that Chandelure wasn't good for Trick Room, but then you wrote in your guide that he was. I had said the 70 base speed statement based on a bad assumption that Chandelure had 70 base speed when he in fact had 80, so I apologize. But my opinion still stands about the speed. Another question I have, Sciztar, is why you would recommend Victini when you specifically told me that Chandelure, a Pokemon will less base speed, is too fast for Trick Room. What's your opinion on "many Pokemon under base 70 with no Speed invested EVs" against Victini? What's the difference between Chandelure and Victini? Or are you lying to me?

    It does really suck to have your opinion stabbed by somebody, but it sucks to have your opinion stabbed by somebody who reformed your opinion on base speed and completely just cut that opinion off. If base 80 speed is good enough for Trick Room, then I would have used my Chandelure, but you told me that it wasn't. So Sciztar, what is it?
  11. Slowking12

    Slowking12

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2011
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    Oviously Mysteryracer you don't understand the tactics of this team to well. Not every Pokemon works well every team, Chandelure does not work b/c Terrakion and Garchomp will have no problem KO him with their STAB move, plus his weakness to Stealth Rock isn't help.

    Here are some clueless statements you made that don't make any sense. I don't have time to argue with you
    Come on know really, this is so untrue how could you talk about me like that. Lol. But seriously he can take out the biggest threats in the Sun, Genesect, Scizor, Terrakion,Venusaur, Garchomp with Ice Beam

    As you can see you don't understand how to RMT. Trust me Sciztar knows what he's talking about when it comes to Trick Room
  12. superstar

    superstar

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2011
    Messages:
    318
    Mysteryracer, you are forgetting the effect of V-create. It lowers speed by one stage. So after one V-create you are effectively at Base 70 UNINVESTED speed (so you easily outspeed Breloom and Skarmory), and after two you are "outspeeding" a theoretical uninvested Magnezone. Victini is a premier Trick Room sweeper. Chandelure cannot outspeed TTar no matter what it does.

    He's not stupid enough to switch Bronzong into Genesect lol that's what Slowking is for. I know you like the bulk on Bronzong, but honestly if you move 200 EVs from the defenses to attack with a Brave nature, you guarantee the OHKO on 252/4 Heatran after SR. You also can one-shot Magnezone, and even have a small chance to 2HKO 252/0 Jirachi! If you move 252 EVs into attack you move up to a 60% chance to KO Jirachi, which will let Reuniclus/Scizor sweep much easier. Some calcs to show how useful the full investment can be. Not sure what role you are using him in, but the extra attack may fit the team better. You can also use Macho Brace to get a 150 BP Gyro Ball almost guaranteed. Some calcs to show your damage output on the two options:

    252+ Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (138 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 210-247 (57.69 - 67.85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    0 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (123 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 132-156 (36.26 - 42.85%) -- 97.56% chance to 3HKO

    252+ Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (102 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 148-175 (45.82 - 54.17%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    0 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (102 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 105-124 (32.5 - 38.39%) -- 4.69% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 217-256 (67.18 - 79.25%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (Macho Brace)

    252+ Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (94 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 157-186 (59.92 - 70.99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (no SR)
    0 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (94 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 111-132 (42.36 - 50.38%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 250-295 (95.41 - 112.59%) -- 75% chance to OHKO, 100% KO after Stealth Rock (Macho Brace)


    If you don't like the Reuniclus option, then go for a Heatran like ArcticBlast said. You get another crucial Fire resist, with the added benefit that Venusaur/Expert Belt Gene with Bug Buzz can't simply walk all over your team.
  13. Sciztar

    Sciztar

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2012
    Messages:
    259
    Mysteryracer I appreciate you trying to help a fellow Trick Room user, but when you give rates don't insult the team like you did. What this does is make you look like an ass to the person. I understand tough critism but don't bash somebodies team who is looking for help.
    That's all I'm going to say about this argument.

    @Starman XL, I have 2 team suggestions. Try these team set for your Sun team, I've been placing around with your team.
    Victini, Ninetales, Reuniclus, Heatran, Garchomp, Breloom.
    Victini, Ninetales, Reuniclus, Heatran, Eggexctor, Garchomp


    With Heatran you still have Stealth Rock
  14. Mysteryracer

    Mysteryracer

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2012
    Messages:
    56
    I didn't mean to insult the team or look like an ass; that's not what I was trying to do. So if I was, I apologize. I saw errors and proceeded to comment, that's all. I like the concept of Sunny Day TR, though when the gears begin to work in my head, things like that can happen. At the same time, I was actually going through a thought process for the team myself. If I see elements that clash together, then I will address them; I can't just avoid them or I'd be denying somebody an opportunity to improve their team. Anyhow, I'll end it too.
  15. StarmanXL

    StarmanXL

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2007
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    Er, if I may...

    Yeah, I understand that, but one of the big purposes of an RMT is to improve upon the original design. If you replace more or less the entire team then it's not really the same team anymore, y'know.

    Attacking, mostly. I'll admit that Deoxys-D is a bitch, but that and Terrakion seem to be the only real Taunt users. Terra has to worry about priority mach punch from Breloom or gyro ball to the face from Bronzong. Also, I haven't edited the team to reflect this yet, but I've been trying out Garchomp as a replacement for Scizor for a revenge killer/panic button when TR is down, and so far he's been working pretty good. Besides, even if I get taunted once, it's not the end of the world--if that's all it took, then every TR team would be worthless.

    Base 100 attack is actually pretty respectable, and you forget that that's base 100 ATK with a 180 BP move that Victini gets STAB on and is boosted by the sun. That is not something to be taken lightly: I mean, Outrage is considered extremely powerful and it's 120 BP. I can count the number of safe switch ins to a Sun-Boosted V-Create on one hand. I know from both theory and experience that those attacks punch holes in teams.

    I'm sorry, but did you just say that Spore was a silly move? I don't mean to be rude, but what exactly is silly about a 100% accurate sleep move? Spore allows me to remove one pokemon from the game without fail and with no repercussion to myself. That not only removes one potential pokemon that could mess me up, but also allows me an opportunity to set up my trick room. It takes away momentum from the enemy because they need to switch or risk staying in to wake up, and gives momentum to me because I get at least one free turn. That free turn lets me switch in my TR pokemon and set up, thus giving me more momentum. I don't have to kill something each turn in order to have control of the match.

    By coverage, do you mean defensive coverage? Yes, Slowking unfortunately gives Volcarona a way in if I'm not careful, but as I said Slowking fulfills many valuable roles in any case.

    I'll give you that one, which is why I replaced Scizor with CS Garchomp. Lets me revenge Scarf Genesect and gives me a fire resist.

    Because it makes Victini ridiculously strong, and even if I didn't have those fire weaks, what benefit would I have from always leading with Ninetales? Ninetales would lose the weather war against opposing Politoed, Tyranitar, and Hippowdon 100% of the time, and it would just put it at risk to get killed before I take out the opposing weather pokemon? Yes, I do want the best of both worlds, but it's a false dichotomy to assume I either have to strategize or I get to have massive power--in fact, I need to do both anyway.

    Firstly, there's no need to get passive-aggressive here. I never said that I wouldn't use Heatran, just that I didn't see why I should implement all your changes. And if you're talking about sweeping, should you be focusing more on offensive coverage? That's something I think I have for sure. And like I said, I dropped Scizor anyway to keep from getting fucked by fire all the time.

    What RD pokemon, exactly, is Jellicent beating that Slowking isn't? Slowking may not absorb water but it can easily take the attacks. Besides, right now you're contradicting yourself with your whole notion of needing powerful sweepers in TR; when it comes to offense, Slowking just does it better. Slowking has better SpA and a better movepool. Slowking gets to abuse Sun in order to shoot off very powerful Fire Blasts--they may not be STAB but a base 120 attack with a weather boost off of base 100 SpA isn't bad. This gives Slowking an immediate answer to many threats. Jellicent can't capitalize on that at all--it has really Water Spout/Surf (which, if the team is working correctly, will be not all that powerful), Energy Ball (which helps with Politoed I guess but not a whole lot else), and Shadow Ball which hits...I dunno. Lat@s I guess? Just play around with it for awhile, and I'm sure you're realize what I'm talking about here.

    Ok...you still haven't explained why they have perfect synergy with each other.

    Now aside from Heatran and Volcarona, what is there? I mean, I ain't saying this is perfect but it's definitely not unusable. I have two pokemon that can find many opportunities to set up TR (Slowking comes in on very common water attacks, Bronzong's resistances allows it to come in on Mamoswine, Landorus, Garchomp, and other physical attackers to set up a TR quickly), most of my team hits pretty hard, and I have some checks in the form of priority and a ringer when TR is down...I'm honestly not seeing what is so horrendous about my team here.

    Which I am.

    I gave him Sun, rock support, TR support, a switch in for water attacks, a switch in for rock and ground attacks (by the way both of these pokemon can put TR right back up for him), a pokemon there specifically to kill Politoed, Tyranitar, and Hippowdon...

    I could give it a shot, but what exactly does Porygon2 do that Bronzong doesn't outside of not dying to Fire Blast? And also how does Victini cover for Porygon2 exactly? And wouldn't this really open me up to a Terrakion weak?

    Wait wait wait what? First you're telling me not to waste my time with support moves, then you're telling me to use support moves? What good would BPing curse to Victini do? It already hits like a truck, and that would take more time and set-up that could be ruined easier. And how in the world is Gliscor good "coverage" against Volcarona? The standard substitute set takes 62% - 74% from an LO Timid Volcarona's Firey Dance in no weather; in the sun it's a guaranteed instant kill with rocks up (93% - 110%). And this is all assuming I didn't fuck up and accidentally give it time to Quiver Dance.

    I know you're trying to help, and I don't doubt that you've had some useful teams in the past, but I don't think you really know what this team is trying to do here. It really seems like you've just got one idea in your head and it's your way or the high way to me. Just try the team out some, I think you'll get a better idea of its offensive nature.
  16. youngjake93

    youngjake93

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2012
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    I suggest you switch Breloom for wait for it..... PARASECT!
    Parasect under Trick Room can can effectively 6-0 any rain team. Your whole team could appreciate leech seed support and possibly Aromatherapy if you choose to use it. Also, ironically enough, if you want to keep Parasect in on an obvious U-Turn it could be a HUGE bonus to your team. You could switch in whichever Pokemon is suitable after Parasect dies and you see who they switch to.
  17. StarmanXL

    StarmanXL

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2007
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    The problem with dropping Breloom for Parasect is that I lose out on priority fighting attacks and a valuable rock resist. This makes it much harder to handle fast pokemon when TR is down as well as making it harder to handle Tyranitar (and by extension Abomasnow I guess but he gets no free switch ins on any of my team anyway). Plus, it would only exacerbate my Volcarona and Heatran weaknesses.

    I can give it a shot, but I absolutely must use Lefties on Bronzong. I need that thing alive as long as I can.

    Out of curiousity, why Eggexcutor?
  18. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast Deer Lord
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    ...I never told him to use Heatran... I backed up ScizTar's suggestion, that's all.
  19. Mysteryracer

    Mysteryracer

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2012
    Messages:
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    I guess so, but I did end up trying to support your use of Victini at the end.


    Terrakion is mainly used as a CB sweeper. I have never encountered a single Terrakion user that uses taunt before, and I'd be surprised if I did. Whimsicott, Miensho, Jellicent (though with his bad speed, you probably wouldn't have to worry much), etc. (can't think of any more) are all taunters. Don't you think you should be worrying about more probable taunt counters than a random Terrakion that has taunt? And it's not the end of the world... when you have a late game sweeper. But it seems you have a Garchomp, so that's fine.


    Victini has V-Create, and I'll give it that. The sun boost is nice as well. I guess I shouldn't have picked at Victini's attack. I'm still more concerned about his speed though.


    Spore isn't a silly move. In fact, I've used it on numerous occasions. Taunt isn't a silly move either, but it's good when used in context with a given strategy. My question is, why use Spore on the Pokemon when you could just sweep it with a Conkeldurr instead? Wouldn't you rather the Pokemon was dead than able to be used as death fodder? And I'm pretty sure that the opponent will just switch to their taunter if you attempt to use Spore to switch to your TR user.


    Yes, I mean defensive coverage. Even though all your setters have offensive capabilities, you're going to want a setter that can allow you to switch into your TR sweepers that don't have TR, right? Slowking might be able to fit that role, but you should have a TR setter that can be switched into and take Volcarona's hits. However, that's my opinion.


    Your inclusion of Choice Band Garchomp is definitely a good addition.


    True, I wasn't necessarily saying you should lead with Ninetales, but do you have a plan to safely get it on the field? You lose your Ninetales before the opponent loses his Politoed, and your team could potentially be crippled.


    You asked me, I answered. I don't think bold characters qualifies me as being passive-aggressive. I was just placing an emphasis on what I had said the combination did; text books do the same thing. Heatran is focused on offensive coverage... did you even look at his EV's? Victini's V-create may be a powerful tool, but Heatran has Flash Fire. Theoretically, you could switch in on a Fire attack and get a 50% attack boost, and completely wall Volcarona and Genesect. You're getting the best of both worlds; better defensive coverage and potentially better attack.


    I don't really know why I said this. Long day I guess, so I apologize. I wasn't doubting Slowking's capabilities. A switch in for water attacks isn't a bad thing, but if defense against water attacks is your aim, then Jellicent serves better for that purpose. However, if all your TR sweepers have TR already, then there's no point in using him. Your original team had 2 TR sweepers that did not have TR, and you didn't have any TR setters that could take a hit for said TR sweepers. I suggested Porygon2 because you already have Terrakion coverage. You didn't have Volcarona coverage. Porygon 2 also has access to thunderbolt and ice beam, something Bronzong does not. Porygon 2 can check both Rain and Sandstorm teams. Porygon 2 also has a reliable recovery move, making him great for TR. Bronzong has earthquake, which can take down Terrakion, but Garchomp can do that better.


    It was just a suggestion. You should find some way to decrease Victini's speed if possible. It would suck to have your Victini swept by a slightly slower Sandstorm/Rain Dance sweeper. If there's a better way to decrease its speed, then okay. There obviously isn't anything wrong with support (that's why you're using a TR team in the first place), but the context you're using your teammates in seemed jumbled. It's almost as if you wanted your designated sweepers to be support, and vice versa, when your team needed a balance between who supports, and who sweeps. Ex: If Slowking is going to sweep, you're going to have to invest some EV's into his SpA and HP, which will diminish your EV's in terms of Def and SpD, meaning he won't be able to take a hit as well as you think.


    Sorry if this reply seems a little mixed up, my computer deleted some of the content and I didn't want to rewrite this post. Well there's Terrakion. Slowking goes bye bye when Terrakion uses Choice Band X-Scissor on him. And it doesn't help that the Sun will cripple your Surf attack either. Though now that you have Garchomp coverage, it shouldn't matter. Bronzong does have coverage against Ground Types, and I'll give it that. but if you already have a counter to Sandstorm Teams, shouldn't you put a bit more aim on Rain Dance teams. Slowking can come in on Rain Dance teams. The problem is, what is he going to do when he does? He certainly doesn't have the movepool currently to counter the water type that you're trying to check. If you're going to use him to provide coverage against Rain Dance teams, you'll want him to be able to strike back at the very thing he's trying to cover. At least give him an Electric Type move so he won't be crippled so easily. Also, Slowking won't be able to take a Thunder hit, which is common in Rain Dance teams, but Jellicent can. Also, Jellicent has an incredibly useful move that Slowking doesn't; Will-O-Wisp. You can cripple the nastiest of physical sweepers with it, and completely avoid Keldeo while you're at it.

    Also, you do have decent cores on your team, but what I meant by a perfect core is the combination of Pokemon that allow it to provide coverage that will not make your team supremely weak to a specific strategy. If you can find a way to keep your defenses and get around Bug Type Attacks, mainly Volcarona's attacks, then you'll be set.

    If you read back, I did say your team was good. But TR has the potential to make you an unstoppable force. When you can find the combination of Pokemon that can resist the entire metagame, your team will become unstoppable. If I find the time, I'll try your team out, but I'm currently working on making team types that nobody has ever thought of before. To explore the metagame more is to evolve it, and that's what I'm aiming to do.

    On a last note, yeah, looking back at it, it seems that I was being a bit of an ass. Though it really wasn't what I was trying to do. My first comment actually started as me simply just editing one of your Pokemon and that was gonna be it. Then I noticed that there were some elements that could cripple your team even with the change. That process continued until I had changed almost your entire team, and I didn't notice it. I didn't want my suggestion to be inadequate and bad... but I actually think it would have been better for me if I had given an inadequate suggestion and not spent 45 minutes trying to find ways to improve your team. Because my involvement ended up making me look like an ass in the end, and it simply made me feel bad to even spend time on this. I wish your team the best of luck though.

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