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What would you consider to be the most urgent thing that needs to be tested?
- Thread starter MythTrainerInfinity
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I would like to see the Lati@s twins tested, because they rate to be the most interesting/fun. I am already planning to use Latios in conjunction with Dugtrio and Magnezone. The way I figure, all I have to do is switch to Dugtrio as soon as my opponent sees Latios. This will remove Blissey/Tyranitar immediately against any average battler. Magnezone deals with steel Pokemon and then I can just spam +1 dragon pulse.
Lati@s sidestep entry hazards with levitate and neutrality to rock, which is a significant advantage over Salamence. Throw in better speed, better special attack, no 4x weakness and huge special defense, and you have one scary Pokemon. I am certain Lati@s will return to uber status after testing, but I look forward to abusing them while I can!
Lati@s sidestep entry hazards with levitate and neutrality to rock, which is a significant advantage over Salamence. Throw in better speed, better special attack, no 4x weakness and huge special defense, and you have one scary Pokemon. I am certain Lati@s will return to uber status after testing, but I look forward to abusing them while I can!
I voted SR because the other options didn't appeal to me much. The retesting of Garchomp in OU would be like flogging a dead horse, I doubt Platinum's changes are drastic enough to warrant a reconsideration on Garchomp's tier placement.
Mew would be broken in OU in my opinion, balanced stats and high speed make it a great baton passer and sweeper, and the sheer amount of sets make it hard to counter. There was something on Mew in OU some time back, but an all-out attacker would beat most if not all the supposed counters the Baton Passer has, sort of like Deoxys-S with Dual Screen and Sweeper sets.
Manaphy's situation is sort of like Garchomp, it was tested before so I don't see a need for retesting.
Next, I feel that the Soul Dew ban to possibly decrease the power of Lati@s in OU, is not enforceable in a non-simulated environment, because then you wouldn't know what Lati@s is carrying unless in specific situations and I think the rule can be bypassed.
Evasion and OHKO clauses I feel does not help the improvement of the metagame, it would add another element of luck which I find undesirable. Regardless of their viability, I think these two clauses shouldn't be considered for testing as they don't help improve the metagame in any way aside from making it more luck based, which isn't an improvement in my opinion.
Species Clause would be interesting, but I don't really see the viability of more than one species in a team, they would contribute to weaknesses which is detrimental to the overall health of the team. I don't consider this to be top priority but it might warrant testing.
I feel the issue of Arceus has to wait until Gamefreak make an official acknowledgement of the presence of this pokemon, otherwise it isn't a pokemon.
I'm split on the issue of Stealth Rock, I don't find it very gamebreaking although I feel that it is an element I would prefer to do without, making pokemon such as Moltres more viable in the metagame.
Mew would be broken in OU in my opinion, balanced stats and high speed make it a great baton passer and sweeper, and the sheer amount of sets make it hard to counter. There was something on Mew in OU some time back, but an all-out attacker would beat most if not all the supposed counters the Baton Passer has, sort of like Deoxys-S with Dual Screen and Sweeper sets.
Manaphy's situation is sort of like Garchomp, it was tested before so I don't see a need for retesting.
Next, I feel that the Soul Dew ban to possibly decrease the power of Lati@s in OU, is not enforceable in a non-simulated environment, because then you wouldn't know what Lati@s is carrying unless in specific situations and I think the rule can be bypassed.
Evasion and OHKO clauses I feel does not help the improvement of the metagame, it would add another element of luck which I find undesirable. Regardless of their viability, I think these two clauses shouldn't be considered for testing as they don't help improve the metagame in any way aside from making it more luck based, which isn't an improvement in my opinion.
Species Clause would be interesting, but I don't really see the viability of more than one species in a team, they would contribute to weaknesses which is detrimental to the overall health of the team. I don't consider this to be top priority but it might warrant testing.
I feel the issue of Arceus has to wait until Gamefreak make an official acknowledgement of the presence of this pokemon, otherwise it isn't a pokemon.
I'm split on the issue of Stealth Rock, I don't find it very gamebreaking although I feel that it is an element I would prefer to do without, making pokemon such as Moltres more viable in the metagame.
If you had read the thread in PR regarding Lati@s you would see that this isn't the case. Yache Berry on Garchomp was not banned because it was a universal item that any Pokemon could use. Yache was not the problem, Garchomp was. If Yache was the problem things like Salamence and Dragonite would probably have also been banned.
As far as Soul Dew is concerned it is a Pokemon specific item. Only Lati@s can use it, thus its already different from Yache Berry. Yes the same can be said about Marowak but UU is as Blame Game said a complete mess and should be going through significant changes shortly, Marowak without Thick Club could probably be tested there later on the same grounds that Lati@s were tested in OU.
Every Pokemon that counters Lati@s is already OU, even with the Soul Dew. Take that away and you have even more solid counters.
Removing Stealth Rock would be a great problem since it opens up a huge advantage for levitators and pokemons like Dragonite and Salamence can stay on for a longer time and flying pokemons can freely switch in without any problem. It also makes Gyarados killing more difficult and baton pass teams party with Ninjask. If a team dosen't have spikes, a Focus Sash Lucario can get a free turn to do a Swords dance.
Btw, I voted for Mew in OU. A pokemon so under-used in ubers should get a chance in OU.
Btw, I voted for Mew in OU. A pokemon so under-used in ubers should get a chance in OU.
I voted SR because I'd love to see it banned for a while so Moltres etc. get a chance to shine and we see what the metagame is like without it.
EDIT: Focus Sash Lucario is okay but it loses a lot of power without Life Orb. Baton Pass teams aren't a real threat for anyone with a phazer, and they are built to get around Stealth Rock anyways. Gyarados, Salamence, and Dragonite could cause problems but I don't think they can do any worse than Heatran and Scizor are now.
Although what I really want is for everything in the game to be unbanned and we work from there.
EDIT: Focus Sash Lucario is okay but it loses a lot of power without Life Orb. Baton Pass teams aren't a real threat for anyone with a phazer, and they are built to get around Stealth Rock anyways. Gyarados, Salamence, and Dragonite could cause problems but I don't think they can do any worse than Heatran and Scizor are now.
Although what I really want is for everything in the game to be unbanned and we work from there.
I highly agree with the Stealth Rock test. It is so centralizing that, as someone said, most pokemon with a 4X Rock weakness are simply discarded and even some not-so-powerful 2X Rock weak pokes are somewhat overshadowed. For example, with the addition of Roost, Articuno would have some very interesting selling points over Suicune, but that glaring SR weakness puts him out of question (dont misunderstood, a 4X Rock Weakness would still be a problem, but not a lot more troubling than, said, 4X Bug weakness on Celebi).
I would have said yes to the Mew argument until Platinum came out. Trick Mew is a pest, even in Ubers. It would basically tear the OU environment apart with its unpredictability, since it will at the very least kill one pokemon just to let you learn out his set.
Manaphy really is OU in my opinion. People always called him Uber because of Tail Glow and Hydratation, and while the latter does no longer enjoy Kyogre's presence, a +2 Sp Atk boost is not something OU cant withstand. Swords Dance is still a lot more frightening since, while Blissey soaks up even special boosted attacks, Skarmory can eventually fall to SDed attacks if they are not resisted.
I cant understand why people are against Soul Dew ban. It is not like Yache Berry on Garchomp because the former is an item ban, while the latter is a combo ban which is unacceptable in my opinion if its legal. And remember that even in play the Lati twins are playable with Soul Dew banned while Thick Club, Light Ball etc are useable, so dont take this as something weird.
Guys, DT can be cool, but it is broken as hell. Ok, a Lucario with DT is not broken, since it would lose a lot of turns setting it up, eventually falling, but think to a Togekiss with Roost/Baton Pass/Double Team/Air Slash. Unless you Taunt it swiftly it can easily Baton Pass a +6 Evasion Boost thanks to its bulkiness and roost recovery - DT also protects it from Whirlwind. And while, as I said before, a Lucario with DT is not broken because it would only have 3 other moves to play with and it would lose a lot of time setting up risking to lose it setup if the opponent does not miss all the time through the set up, a SD Luke with +6 Evasion is nighly uncounterable. DT would make Baton Pass as broken as ever.
Arceus need to be played in Ubers. It is not too powerful, and i cant really see why we must wait its release, at least on Shoddy. We know Arceus exists, we know it is available in game when Azure Flute will be released, We know he is a pokemon. Give him a chance.
Species clause, well... its ban would be unhortodox to the least, but its too soon to say if it would break the metagame. For sure, it will enforce a lot more centralization. If Garchomp would not be Uber now, i would see as perfectly viable and somewhat frightening a team with 2 or even 3 or more Garchomps - if a Yachechomp would generally cost you 2 pokes, how about 3 Yachechomps? 2X3=6...
I would have said yes to the Mew argument until Platinum came out. Trick Mew is a pest, even in Ubers. It would basically tear the OU environment apart with its unpredictability, since it will at the very least kill one pokemon just to let you learn out his set.
Manaphy really is OU in my opinion. People always called him Uber because of Tail Glow and Hydratation, and while the latter does no longer enjoy Kyogre's presence, a +2 Sp Atk boost is not something OU cant withstand. Swords Dance is still a lot more frightening since, while Blissey soaks up even special boosted attacks, Skarmory can eventually fall to SDed attacks if they are not resisted.
I cant understand why people are against Soul Dew ban. It is not like Yache Berry on Garchomp because the former is an item ban, while the latter is a combo ban which is unacceptable in my opinion if its legal. And remember that even in play the Lati twins are playable with Soul Dew banned while Thick Club, Light Ball etc are useable, so dont take this as something weird.
Guys, DT can be cool, but it is broken as hell. Ok, a Lucario with DT is not broken, since it would lose a lot of turns setting it up, eventually falling, but think to a Togekiss with Roost/Baton Pass/Double Team/Air Slash. Unless you Taunt it swiftly it can easily Baton Pass a +6 Evasion Boost thanks to its bulkiness and roost recovery - DT also protects it from Whirlwind. And while, as I said before, a Lucario with DT is not broken because it would only have 3 other moves to play with and it would lose a lot of time setting up risking to lose it setup if the opponent does not miss all the time through the set up, a SD Luke with +6 Evasion is nighly uncounterable. DT would make Baton Pass as broken as ever.
Arceus need to be played in Ubers. It is not too powerful, and i cant really see why we must wait its release, at least on Shoddy. We know Arceus exists, we know it is available in game when Azure Flute will be released, We know he is a pokemon. Give him a chance.
Species clause, well... its ban would be unhortodox to the least, but its too soon to say if it would break the metagame. For sure, it will enforce a lot more centralization. If Garchomp would not be Uber now, i would see as perfectly viable and somewhat frightening a team with 2 or even 3 or more Garchomps - if a Yachechomp would generally cost you 2 pokes, how about 3 Yachechomps? 2X3=6...
Usage doesn't matter for Uber, its too powerful for OU, thats the point.
It has a high base stat total and has a massive movepool. With its stats it' can take a hit or two why you try to work out which moveset its using... That I believe is why it is Uber.
Most of the things to be tested in the poll would have to be added to our present metagame. Thus, since they have already been excluded, there is not much support for them. People also generally tend to think Mew is uber and that changes such as Evasion and OHKO are radical changes to a long established ruleset.
Garchomp was only recently removed from the game after much contention and if I remember correctly the poll to ban him came out close at the deadline, so it is logical to want to retest him.
However, the only poll option that involves testing an element of the game present in the current metagame is SR, and so many people feel strongly about it because they felt the effects of its presence most recently. Thus, it is no surprise that it is the leading option on the poll.
EDIT: Also, why is Arceus even on the poll? There is no need to perform a metagame examination of Arceus's effect on Ubers because the issue of his legality has to do with his obtainability rather than his impact on centralization or any other metagame-related issue.
Rather than playtest him we should simply adopt a definition of the bounds of the game. Thus, we can settle the issue of Arceus's legality now by popular poll or by fiat; in fact, I had already thought the Extended Game Clause was the final word by Smogon (or maybe Colin) on his use.
Garchomp was only recently removed from the game after much contention and if I remember correctly the poll to ban him came out close at the deadline, so it is logical to want to retest him.
However, the only poll option that involves testing an element of the game present in the current metagame is SR, and so many people feel strongly about it because they felt the effects of its presence most recently. Thus, it is no surprise that it is the leading option on the poll.
EDIT: Also, why is Arceus even on the poll? There is no need to perform a metagame examination of Arceus's effect on Ubers because the issue of his legality has to do with his obtainability rather than his impact on centralization or any other metagame-related issue.
Rather than playtest him we should simply adopt a definition of the bounds of the game. Thus, we can settle the issue of Arceus's legality now by popular poll or by fiat; in fact, I had already thought the Extended Game Clause was the final word by Smogon (or maybe Colin) on his use.
That's the official stance as of now, but it is being debated currently. http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47536
I voted for Arceus in ubers, for reasons already brought up in Policy Review. However, I would also like for Latios and Latias to be tested in OU. It clearly appears to not be overcentralizing without Soul Dew, but people always seem to think of it as if it will always carry Soul Dew, and I believe that's why its testing/possible inclusion has been delayed so long.
Edit: And hey, there's our new Yachechomp revenge-killer right there.
Edit: And hey, there's our new Yachechomp revenge-killer right there.
You'll see a lot of Shed Shell Bronzong, perhaps with Rest Talk, if that becomes popular. Totally defeats your whole strategy.
Well, Adamant CBChomp has a chance to 2OHKO Lugia with Outrage if she's not fast enough to Roost/Recover damage. With speed EVs on Lugia side it's even easier. CBTrio is usable in ubers (if you hate risking using Outrage on Chomp), but need alot more prediction to get rid of steels. Just switch on electric attack.
I voted for Mew, but when I think about it right now Trick set can be really nasty if played well (as someone said about in this thread). I can't change my vote, but I think trying to test game without SR would be really interesting. I used a few teames without SR and if you play your cards right, Salamence/Gyarados or right now Shaymin-S won't be a huge problem. And I would really like to use pokemon like Charizard (I met a player using defensive, mixed set which easily countered pokemon like Heatran, Scizor or Weavile with his resistances/neutralities. Heck, even SDLuke without Stone Edge would be stopped and with basic 100 speed it wouldn't be hard to outspeed it anyway. Same would go for Moltres) without Rapid Spinner easily stopped by any sturdy ghost-type or without fearing pursuit (yeah, Starmie). Regice would shine as a great Shaymin-S counter. Really, I like this idea alot. If Focus Sash would be overused (but I feel it wouldn't thanks to Hippowdon/Tyranitar and Spikes) we could think about some testing without Stealth Rock AND Focus Sash.
About Lati Twins - I don't see any problem with Lati@s (of course without Soul Dew) but with Latios... I think mixed-dd set would be really troublesome to counter with Dugtrio to trap and kill some steals. Dragon Dance/Outrage/Draco Meteor/HP Fire or Grass Knot would be really troublesome in my opinion so calling Blissey a Latios counter... well, good luck with eating dragon danced Outrage. You'll need it ;).
With Manaphy... she was tested, right ? Tail Glow + Rest would be annoying as hell to counter in OU. Well, I used her in Ubers and she's usable, really.
i voted for manaphy but well, i think i`m really biased since i want to use mine in OU XD
Lati twins is the most interesting option in my opinion, especially since then if the become OU we have consistency also with the ingame tiers (battle tower), i know nobody is really interested in how gamefreak ties the various pokes but it may be handy for future generation.
Lati twins is the most interesting option in my opinion, especially since then if the become OU we have consistency also with the ingame tiers (battle tower), i know nobody is really interested in how gamefreak ties the various pokes but it may be handy for future generation.
This is a ludicrously flawed argument- you are suggesting that we remove something that is unquestionably a part of the game, and that any adverse effects that result from removing it "have nothing to do with it," and that it's "Gyarados/Salamence/xyz's fault" instead. Maybe we should ban Blissey, and then every decent special sweeper? I sure am glad Skymin showed up and Salamence got a buff, so these sorts of illogical arguments are all "pro SR testers" have left to support their opinions.
We were arguably quite ignorant at the time, not to mention that this isn't DP anymore.
This is a very bad argument. Soul Dew breaks Lati@s; the other two are UU at best.
Lati@s without soul dew has been unofficially tested before and is as OU as it gets, and that was before platinum and scizor. It basically gets treated like a special-oriented salamence (read: blissey) with a pursuit weakness that gets completely obliterated by on-every-team heatran if it has HP fire, and dies to on-every-team scizor if it is packing EQ for heatran. With three attacks, it has to pick between calm mind and recover. A specs set gets walled by Blissey and gets revenge killed easily thanks to the dark weakness if it doesn't die to prediction first.
There is a problem with legalizing them though. Your legalizations and bannings often trickle down to WiFi sites like Serebii, and the Soul Dew is an undetectable item. Cheating with it would be way too easy.
Welcome to global politics, Smogon. Welcome, and weep.
Why is Stealth Rock broken but Spikes not?
Other than the fun factor behind most of these options, I don't see too much of a bright future for any of them. I could regurjitate all the intelegent responses to each option but I'm lazy as hell right now and if you've read this far you've read them anyways. In the end the only ones that may result in anything is Manaphy and Species, Manaphy being due to the vast changes that have occured since his ban, and species just becuase it'd be funny as hell to see teams of 3 DDmence, 2 SD Scizor and a Jolly scarved Duggie or some variation of the above.
I voted other for skymin. Even though it's already in progress. I needed to feel like I did something.
I voted other for skymin. Even though it's already in progress. I needed to feel like I did something.
Stealth Rock only takes one move to set up - spikes takes three rounds to set up at full power.
No pokemon is immune to stealth rock. The many pokemon unaffected by ground moves are immune to spikes.
Stealth rock is modified by weakness/resistance to rock, which means several pokemon take 25% or 50% damage every time they switch into stealth rock - spikes does 25% at most.
Basically, spikes at two layers is equivalent to SR on rock-neutrals. SR is easier to set up than spikes, and better in general.
I think the main problem isn't broken-ness so much as possible centralisation of the metagame. I'm not sure it would improve without stealth rock, but it'd certainly be interesting to see what it looks like. That should probably be a tournament, actually.
No pokemon is immune to stealth rock. The many pokemon unaffected by ground moves are immune to spikes.
Stealth rock is modified by weakness/resistance to rock, which means several pokemon take 25% or 50% damage every time they switch into stealth rock - spikes does 25% at most.
Basically, spikes at two layers is equivalent to SR on rock-neutrals. SR is easier to set up than spikes, and better in general.
I think the main problem isn't broken-ness so much as possible centralisation of the metagame. I'm not sure it would improve without stealth rock, but it'd certainly be interesting to see what it looks like. That should probably be a tournament, actually.
Spikes has Pokemon immune to it, and takes 3 turns to fully set up. That's 3 turns where the enemy can stat up, kill your Spiker, or any manner of things. Stealth Rock takes full effect after one turn, and can potentially take half of the HP of a Pokemon off instantly. It's far easier to deal with Spikes than SR.
I'm not saying I want SR banned. It's a very important part of the metagame, and if gone would give the already tough Flying types a lot more power. However, it's important that it's much more effective than Spikes in most circumstances.
The fact is, Stealth Rock is so central to the metagame we don't know for sure what would happen without it. Obviously Salamence, Gyarados, Skymin and Zapdos would all get a nice little boost, but what about the usage of say, focus sash? How would leads change without Stealth Rock, or what about all the pokemon that depend on it to change those 3HKOs into 2HKOs?
It is such an omnipotent force in the metagame that it is worth testing to see if the game would play better without it.
It is such an omnipotent force in the metagame that it is worth testing to see if the game would play better without it.
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