What would you consider to be the most urgent thing that needs to be tested?

[lilyhollow]

That should probably be a tournament, actually.

There was one; Garchomp, a pokemon that many test-supporters theorized would actually become less effective without Stealth Rock, still dominated. It is very easy to team him up with Dragonite or Salamence when the latter two no longer take switch damage, as a sort of pseudo "species clause breaker" where one of them breaks down their counters and the other sweeps. I wouldn't be surprised if Salamence + Dragonite ended up being similarly effective without Stealth Rock in Platinum, particularly with Salamence getting Outrage.

Spikes has Pokemon immune to it, and takes 3 turns to fully set up. That's 3 turns where the enemy can stat up, kill your Spiker, or any manner of things. Stealth Rock takes full effect after one turn, and can potentially take half of the HP of a Pokemon off instantly. It's far easier to deal with Spikes than SR.

Yeah, but his question was "Why is Stealth Rock broken," a question I have yet to see anyone bother to answer yet.

 

[ViVi]

Why is Stealth Rock broken but Spikes not?

Because SR gets setup in 1 turn, is a TM and therefore far more available, it also does 50% damage to a number of Pokemon, whereas Spikes take 3 turns to setup, isnt as widespread and does a certain amount of damage to all Pokemon.

 

[SMZ]

No pokemon is immune to stealth rock. The many pokemon unaffected by ground moves are immune to spikes.

Magic Guard Clefable is.

Anyway, I agree with Darth Meanie due to the fact that SR going missing will change a lot of things.

I'm not against Lati twins without SD tested, but it's not a high priority right now (as things such as Skymin and re-test Garchomp for the Pt metagame need to be made first).

 

[lilyhollow]

Since when does "it will change a lot of things" have anything to do with whether something deserves testing?

 

[Tleilax]

Why do so many think that Chomp needs to be retested? What so dramatically changed the metagame that makes him look so tame? If people think that Outrage going around does it, they are sorely wrong. Outrage is only good with STAB, as it lacks coverage. It's worth it on Dragons since the STAB backing gives it quite an oomph, but most other Pokemon don't have the moveslots to spare. They need attacks that get coverage more than something neutral.

 

[SMZ]

Why do so many think that Chomp needs to be retested? What so dramatically changed the metagame that makes him look so tame? If people think that Outrage going around does it, they are sorely wrong. Outrage is only good with STAB, as it lacks coverage. It's worth it on Dragons since the STAB backing gives it quite an oomph, but most other Pokemon don't have the moveslots to spare. They need attacks that get coverage more than something neutral.

I don't know about others, but for me, no it's not "Outrage" and not to be compared with Outrage Mence. It's just that with the "new" move additions and "new" Pokemon AKA new forms factor in the change of the metagame. Garchomp is probably staying Uber, but it should be tested nevertheless in Pt.

Since when does "it will change a lot of things" have anything to do with whether something deserves testing?

Banning a Pokemon is a lot different from banning a move. Sure, its absence changing a lot of thing doesn't mean it shouldn't be tested, but it's a factor to consider. IMHO I don't care if SR gets tested.

 

[jamespicone]

You're comparing one layer of SR with three layers of spikes - there's a different level of investment. Spikes does 6.25% to everything not ground immune with the same investment SR does to everything (but wonder guard clefable, thank you. :P).

The potential issue is that SR makes several pokemon practically untenable because one move means they lose half their health on switch. Even a 2x rock weakness makes you look shaky. The fact that the vast majority of teams use it speaks for its usefulness - particularly when it's so much more common than spikes.

I'm not sure if it's broken or overcentralising, and it could potentially make Salamence/Dragonite far more threatening if we remove it, but I think it'd be an interesting test - that's why I'd like to see it happen.

 

[Tleilax]

I don't know about others, but for me, no it's not "Outrage" and not to be compared with Outrage Mence. It's just that with the "new" move additions and "new" Pokemon AKA new forms factor in the change of the metagame. Garchomp is probably staying Uber, but it should be tested nevertheless in Pt.

What new moves additions would make him suddenly more manageable? The only potential thing I can think of is BP Scizor, and that's if Chomp is weakened first, since if Chomp survives the hit (or BP misses because of Sand Veil), it will easily OHKO with Fire Fang. The new forms really don't impact either. They have EQ immunity, and can potentially Burn or Trick, but I'd hardly call that a reliable way to remove Chomp. He still crushes them with Outrage while without the aforementioned abilities they cannot do much back.

We have other things to test before restesting something so recent. I, for one, would like Stealth Rock tested, just to get it over with.I don't believe it's broken, despite it's power, but I would like a final decision reached.

 

[lilyhollow]

Banning a Pokemon is a lot different from banning a move. Sure, its absence changing a lot of thing doesn't mean it shouldn't be tested, but it's a factor to consider. IMHO I don't care if SR gets tested.

Its absence changing a lot of things does mean that it shouldn't be tested. It's changing the game significantly by removing something when the game we have right now, possibly barring Skymin, is acceptably balanced. That is the exact opposite of what the Evasion, Species, or OHKO clause removals would achieve, and yet here we are considering it despite this clear contradiction. If we're going to sacrifice completeness, we need a good reason. "Moltres sucks," "a test would be interesting," and "it's used too often" are not good reasons.

I don't know about others, but for me, no it's not "Outrage" and not to be compared with Outrage Mence. It's just that with the "new" move additions and "new" Pokemon AKA new forms factor in the change of the metagame. Garchomp is probably staying Uber, but it should be tested nevertheless in Pt.

Salamence gaining Outrage actually makes it a better partner for Garchomp than ever, as the two can be used on the same team with relative ease and brute force their way through eachother's counters. If anything Garchomp could very well have become stronger in the transition- either way I would never consider a Garchomp test, at this point, "urgent."

 

[petrie911]

I voted Stealth Rock. I'd like to see it banned, but more importantly I'd like to see what would really happen without it. Perhaps then we can end all the theorymon thrown around when its removal is discussed.

As for whether or not its broken, considering that it's worth sacrificing a Pokemon to set up, I think its brokeness should be considered.

 

[Jumpman16]

ok quite a few of you seem to either be unaware or lack an understanding of the Suspect Test Process. allow me to repaste this from my order of operations thread for like the sixth time:


Stage 1: Analysis of a single Suspect in a suspect-free standard metagame

Stage 2: Our assessment of Uber or OU for any Suspect's impact on a suspect-free metagame, following the respective Suspect's completion of Stage 1.

Stage 3: Analysis of all the Suspects in the standard metagame with the knowledge of which are considered Uber and OU in a Suspect-free metagame.


Pay specific attention to Stage 3. Everything is going to retested. Those voting for Garchomp as the most urgent thing to be tested seem to think that we've closed the door on it forever. We haven't. Nor have we on Deoxys-S. Each Suspect will be reevaluated with the knowledge of how it specifically was assessed in Stage 2.

As far as the Soul Dew vs. Thick Club/Light Ball argument, let me just say this: we are aiming to give every pokemon the chance to enjoy the most use in competitive pokemon without breaking any particular metagame. Banning Soul Dew on Lati@s may allow it to be viable in standard play, which is the metagame every pokemon strives to enjoy use in because it is the most popular. UU is played less than Standard, obviously. Banning Thick Club on Marowak would make it decidedly UU instead of BL, and it would therefore enjoy less use. Banning Light Ball on Pikachu would decidedly make it less viable in UU, and it would therefore enjoy less use. I hope that clears things up about how we regard these special items—I don't think anyone has voiced it in this manner but it is safe to say that this is a fair way of considering competitive pokemon and why we tier things the way we do.

 

[lilyhollow]

As for whether or not its broken, considering that it's worth sacrificing a Pokemon to set up, I think its brokeness should be considered.

Should we ban Baton Pass teams too? You're not literally sacrificing a pokemon, but you are essentially dedicating them to setting up for the actual central focus of your strategy, just like SR suicide leads.

Honestly I see nothing broken about having a move for which it is "worth sacrificing a pokemon," especially when it's not like that's the sole purpose of most suicide leads in the first place.

Speaking of which, with Deoxys-S banned, why are people concerned with Stealth Rock right now? I think at the very least we should wait to see what happens after the most effective SR lead has been removed from standard.

UU is played less than Standard, obviously. Banning Thick Club on Marowak would make it decidedly UU instead of BL, and it would therefore enjoy less use.

I don't think it would be unreasonable to say that Thick Club is a "BL only" item though, just like Soul Dew would be considered usable in Ubers only.

 

[Magik0722]

I hope in Gen V Stealth rock Base damage is halfed, then it would be so centralizing. 4x weak would take only 25% and 2x weak 12.5 that would allow pokes with 4x weak usable. Anyways I voted for mew, although I would also want manaphy to be tested at the same time.

 

[petrie911]

In which case, against the previously mentioned pokemon, one layer of spikes is just as effective as SR (and in the cases of Lucario and Steelix, more effective).

He's got things a bit wrong. 1 layer of spikes does 12.5% to everything that isn't immune to ground and isn't Clefable, as well as Shedinja for God knows what reason. Stealth Rock does 12.5%*(weakness to rock) to all pokemon except Clefable. So spikes is more effective on some things and less on others. However, on the things Spikes is more effective on, it's never doing more than 10% more damage than Stealth Rock. On those Stealth Rock is more effective on, it's doing 12.5%-37.5% more. Stealth Rock horribly degrades some pokemon, to the point that 680 BST Ho-oh is being considered for OU and 580 BST Articuno is uncommon even in UU. Spikes has this effect only on Shedinja, who Stealth Rock has the same effect on, anyways. Stealth Rock can be laid down by any number of OU pokemon. Spikes can be laid down by 3 OU pokemon, two of which can be trapped with Magnet Pull, and only 9 non-ubers total. So yeah, Stealth Rock is much better than Spikes.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

What? When was Lati@s suddenly debatable? I thought they were the most solidly positioned Ubers in the tier?

I thought that Latios is faster, stronger and better than Garchomp in nearly every way (barring it being special and Chomp being physical) so how can it be even thought of as OU?

 

[RaikouLover]

I voted for Manaphy in OU. I would definately like to see the Ubers tested more than anything else. I would definately be pleased with the Lati@ in OU testing also.

Stealth Rock is something I would hate and don't think needs to be tested. As broken as it may seem, I think Stealth Rock is vital to keep the best pokemon in check. Things like Gyarados, Salamence, Legendary Birds, Yanmega, Bellyzard, etc. become increasingly difficult to handle without it. I think gamefreak invented Stealth Rock because pokemon has always revolved around Flying pokemon ever since RBY. Another thing that would take the fun out of the game is that frail flying pokemon and levitators now force you to run Tar or Abomasnow. I could easily make a pokemon team of Gengar, Azelf, Yanmega, Gyarados, Salamence, etc.. equip them all with Focus Sashes and now a counter to each of these pokemon becomes less of a counter since I am guarenteed two hits against you... Since they all are pretty swift... that two turns to three... Yeah... three. Of course, all of this is speculation because I haven't played in the Stealth Rockless tournament.. but that would be my biggest fear.

What? When was Lati@s suddenly debatable? I thought they were the most solidly positioned Ubers in the tier?

I thought that Latios is faster, stronger and better than Garchomp in nearly every way (barring it being special and Chomp being physical) so how can it be even thought of as OU?

The argument is testing them without Soul Dew, which they aren't broken at all (hell, I don't think Chomp is but whatever). Salamence, Garchomp, and Dragonite do physical sets better, Choice Specs sets are still walled by Bliss / Regice, Calm Mind sets still have trouble against the inevitable Metagross, Weavile, Tyranitar, and Scizor CB Pursuit / Super effective neutering, etc. They definately are testable in OU (and playing in the tournament was fun!).

 

[1059860]

Im Thinking that Garchomp SHOULD be back in OU. Alot of things Counter it.

-Weavile
-Mamoswine


Anyways, Its not that Frightening, Its just like Salamence.

If you look for a Definition of "Counter" - The Pokemon must be able to SWITCH IN without taking at least 50% of damage and kill it or threaten a switch. Neither of Weavile and Mamoswine can SWITCH into it. You must forfeit one of your Pokemon before putting one of them in, and at that same time, I can simply switch into something like Foretress to counter Weavile and Mamoswine.

 

[DT]

I, for one, think Manaphy should be tested. In ubers it a bit to fragile even to be used in the rain Kyogre/Palika's Thunder both staples on most Uber team prove it useless in an Uber enviorment. It packs Ice Beam, Grass Knot, Surf, Psychic, Shadow Ball, Rest, and the limited Tail Glow, (That's all) but with such a shallow move pool it cant get much done w/o being swept away.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

I, for one, think Manaphy should be tested. In ubers it a bit to fragile even to be used in the rain Kyogre/Palika's Thunder both staples on most Uber team prove it useless in an Uber enviorment. It packs Ice Beam, Grass Knot, Surf, Psychic, Shadow Ball, Rest, and the limited Tail Glow, (That's all) but with such a shallow move pool it cant get much done w/o being swept away.

I thought Manaphy was more useful in Ubers than out. It has the best health recovery system in the game, courtesy of Kyogre's Drizzle and its own Hydration. STAB Surfs backed by the boost from rain have a heck of a sting on them, it is faster than lots of things in Ubers, it has an excellent and reliable way to boost its stats (thus it can OHKO Kyogre with Grass Knot after a Tail Glow boost, so Kyogre is no threat really), it is versatile enough to do pretty much everything it wants (I'm fairly sure it can run defensive sets with Light Screen and Knock Off or Offensive physical sets with Waterfall and U-turn) it resists the ice attacks that fly pretty much everywhere in Ubers and it can nick the boosts off others with Heart Swap.

It really is a monster. At least, it is in my opinion.

EDIT: Not that it really matters, but wouldn't Ho-oh break up the 'Holy Trinity' that seems to be everywhere currently, of Heatran/Scizor/Skymin?

 

[Kitamerby]

I, for one, think Manaphy should be tested. In ubers it a bit to fragile even to be used in the rain Kyogre/Palika's Thunder both staples on most Uber team prove it useless in an Uber enviorment. It packs Ice Beam, Grass Knot, Surf, Psychic, Shadow Ball, Rest, and the limited Tail Glow, (That's all) but with such a shallow move pool it cant get much done w/o being swept away.

I think Stealth Rock should probably tested, but I'm really curious as to what would happen to Mew in the OU metagame. Seriously, it could be pretty interesting to see all the different movesets. It'd be like a good Smeargle! :D

On the flip side of Mew, it also adds unpredictability on an unprecedented scale. You can't ever know what moveset it will know, games will start to depend on luck, Pokemon will be ruined, etc. yadda yadda yadda.


Either way, I think Stealth Rock needs to be tested. Then maybe Shedinja and Ninjask won't be as freaking useless in most battles. :\

 

[DT]

I thought Manaphy was more useful in Ubers than out. It has the best health recovery system in the game, courtesy of Kyogre's Drizzle and its own Hydration. STAB Surfs backed by the boost from rain have a heck of a sting on them, it is faster than lots of things in Ubers, it has an excellent and reliable way to boost its stats (thus it can OHKO Kyogre with Grass Knot after a Tail Glow boost, so Kyogre is no threat really), it is versatile enough to do pretty much everything it wants (I'm fairly sure it can run defensive sets with Light Screen and Knock Off or Offensive physical sets with Waterfall and U-turn) it resists the ice attacks that fly pretty much everywhere in Ubers and it can nick the boosts off others with Heart Swap.

It really is a monster. At least, it is in my opinion.

EDIT: Not that it really matters, but wouldn't Ho-oh break up the 'Holy Trinity' that seems to be everywhere currently, of Heatran/Scizor/Skymin?

With that luring Electrical weakness it cant even run a defensive, even in the rain since it gives Thunder a 100% accuracy and a 30% paralyze chance to boot, if however She had a thunder of its own it might acatually be a feasible set, but it doesnt.

I think Stealth Rock should probably tested, but I'm really curious as to what would happen to Mew in the OU metagame. Seriously, it could be pretty interesting to see all the different movesets. It'd be like a good Smeargle! :D

On the flip side of Mew, it also adds unpredictability on an unprecedented scale. You can't ever know what moveset it will know, games will start to depend on luck, Pokemon will be ruined, etc. yadda yadda yadda.


Either way, I think Stealth Rock needs to be tested. Then maybe Shedinja and Ninjask won't be as freaking useless in most battles. :\

Why you quoted me as your post has little, if anything to do with mine.

People who want Stealth rock taken out are crazy, the game was slow down a great deal and I for one am in favor keeping Stealth Rock, plus w/o stealth rock Ho-oh would run a muck in Ubers, and Moltres and Articuno might as well make the jump to BL/OU taking average damage from Ice, team would be forced to run more Rock/Electric moves, it would screw up the current metagame, and would take months to change everything to fit the new play.

 

[petrie911]

EDIT: Not that it really matters, but wouldn't Ho-oh break up the 'Holy Trinity' that seems to be everywhere currently, of Heatran/Scizor/Skymin?

IIRC, a +2 LO Quick Attack from Scizor does >50% to Ho-oh and Skymin's Air Slash does quite a bit if Ho-oh comes in on a double sp.def drop. Obviously these hurt Ho-oh's countering ability if Stealth Rock is in play (the only reason Ho-oh could be in OU, anyways). Heatran's got nothing on Ho-oh, of course. It'd have to run Ancientpower or HP rock, which would be pretty lol.

Also

People who want Stealth rock taken out are crazy, the game was slow down a great deal and I for one am in favor keeping Stealth Rock, plus w/o stealth rock Ho-oh would run a muck in Ubers, and Moltres and Articuno might as well make the jump to BL/OU taking average damage from Ice, team would be forced to run more Rock/Electric moves, it would screw up the current metagame, and would take months to change everything to fit the new play.

I fail to see how anything you just said is a bad thing. More Pokemon would be viable, the metagame becomes less hyper-offensive, and pokemon are forced to run attacks of types that they already do? Sounds good to me.

 

[ultimifier]

people, can you please stop saying how a pokemon performs poorly in ubers and then saying it should be OU. lurk more and learn about tiers or don't post.

also, as much as stealth rock ruins a lot of pokemons chance at being OU (moltres, articuno) or nerfs other pokemon (yanmega, skymin), it is good for the game. without SR, focus sash users would run rampant, making a team be forced to use sand or spikes or else lose to a large amount of FS users. imagine what you would do to a team with 6 focus sash users if you did NOT have spikes or sand: you would lose. this would over centralise the metagame to an extent where every team would have to make sure they had a way to stop multiple sashers

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Well you do have me there, I am a pretty crazy guy and I do wanna at least get a SRless metagame tested.

Since this argument gets beaten to death on both sides, lemme summarize. People want to ban it for much more diversity in the metagame. Ho-Oh still has to worry about the tons of Dragons and Kyogre in Ubers and I don't think it would have too much freedom to do whatever it would please.

Edit: Common sashers are mostly pokémon that get hurt by Spikes as pointed out a couple pages back and this is starting to get to be a cyclical debate... So can we discuss other potential suspects?

As far as at least giving trouble to the "Holy Trinity" in OU I think that Moltres would do the job alright in an SRless environment.

There's lots of potential discussion for other topics though and I don't want to turn this into another SR bitchfest... because those get ugly.

 

[DT]

IIRC, a +2 LO Quick Attack from Scizor does >50% to Ho-oh and Skymin's Air Slash does quite a bit if Ho-oh comes in on a double sp.def drop. Obviously these hurt Ho-oh's countering ability if Stealth Rock is in play (the only reason Ho-oh could be in OU, anyways). Heatran's got nothing on Ho-oh, of course. It'd have to run Ancientpower or HP rock, which would be pretty lol.

Also


I fail to see how anything you just said is a bad thing. More Pokemon would be viable, the metagame becomes less hyper-offensive, and pokemon are forced to run attacks of types that they already do? Sounds good to me.

Not saying that making more pokemon usbale is a bad thing, but revamping the whole game just to take 1 move is a bit erratic.

people, can you please stop saying how a pokemon performs poorly in ubers and then saying it should be OU. lurk more and learn about tiers or don't post.

also, as much as stealth rock ruins a lot of pokemons chance at being OU (moltres, articuno) or nerfs other pokemon (yanmega, skymin), it is good for the game. without SR, focus sash users would run rampant, making a team be forced to use sand or spikes or else lose to a large amount of FS users. imagine what you would do to a team with 6 focus sash users if you did NOT have spikes or sand: you would lose. this would over centralise the metagame to an extent where every team would have to make sure they had a way to stop multiple sashers

Not saying just because Manaphy sucks she should go to OU, Ho-Oh IMO sucks in Ubers, but I'd rather have it there than coming to OU and completly revamping the game, Manaphy i believe was to abrubtly declared an Uber due its godly ability/form of healing but that alone does make it an Uber.

As for Stealth Rocks i do agree with you on that matter, and think about all taking stealth rock is doing is giving all Flying/Levitators a free chance to walk in on the Spikes that would become prevalent due to SR being nerfed with the Combo of Spikes/SR now no one pokemon is all powerful, but DD Mence, Gyarados, Skymin would have nothing to fear anymore with Stealth Rocks being taken out