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Which is better, Energy Ball or Grass Knot? The official answer!

Discussion in 'Pokémetrics' started by X-Act, Jun 29, 2008.

  1. X-Act

    X-Act np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
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    Energy Ball's base power is a constant 80. What is Grass Knot's base average power?

    Taking into account May's statistics and type coverage, Grass Knot's average base power is 79.9.

    I decided to also calculate what would be Low Kick's average base power. It is actually even higher: 80.8. Unfortunately, most Pokemon that learn Low Kick also learn a Fighting move of higher base power.

    So basically, on average, both deal practically the same amount of damage.
  2. Yuuki-kun

    Yuuki-kun

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    Now I know not to use energy ball on my specs Roserade.
    Thanks, X-act! :D
  3. EvilBob

    EvilBob

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    For pokemon that use it for coverage and not stab, could you post the average base power counting only pokemon weak to grass?
  4. gaudetjaja

    gaudetjaja

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    Uhm, honestly I expected a longer article than just these numbers (even though you probably did put a lot of work into this).

    Anyway, the average is not what counts, it's the specific threats you want to hit with your move. Even though you may hit, say, snorlax harder with grass knot, you don't want to hit snorlax harder, but you want to hit, ie, vaporeon, in which case you should use Energy Ball.
  5. Agahnim

    Agahnim

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    Why does low kick have a higher BP than grass knot? i thought both used the same formula for power.
  6. Gandalf the blue

    Gandalf the blue

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    It would be good to know for which pokemon you calculated the average damage :O
    I am guessing it are all OU pokemon from May :pimp:
  7. X-Act

    X-Act np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
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    Whoops, sorry, I made a mistake. Grass Knot and Energy Ball's average are basically identical.

    Low Kick does slightly more damage than Grass Knot because Physical Fighting moves have better type coverage, on average, then Special Grass moves.

    If type coverage is not taken into account and only Pokemon usages are, both Low Kick and Grass Knot's average base power would be 79.7.

    Regarding Pokemon usages, I took all final evolutions forms, with Pikachu, Scyther, Phione and Vigoroth, into account.
  8. Tytus

    Tytus

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    This makes Low Kick more appealing to me than Cross Chop on Electivire. 4.4 lower base power, but 20% more accurate.
  9. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    Its interesting to know, but I agree that a chart or something would be nice to know exactly how it averages out. If all the the pokemon it hits strong are high OU and all the pokemon it hits weak are low OU then Grass Knot would be the better choice. However you can't see that off numbers so Energy Ball looks better off numbers.
  10. rito

    rito

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    Is the base power of grass knot determined by an actual formula with the opponent's weight as a variable? or just different weight classes and base powers associated with those classes (i.e. snorlax, tyranitar, mamoswine would be one). And if so, I'd like to know what the classes are in and which pokemon are in them, please.
  11. X-Act

    X-Act np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
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    Grass Knot can only hit for 20, 40, 60, 80, 100 or 120 base power, depending on the opponent's Pokemon's weight in kilograms.

    These are the (final stage) Pokemon, in order of usage, that are dealt a Grass Knot of 120 base power:

    Code:
    Gyarados
    Tyranitar
    Heatran
    Metagross
    Snorlax
    Hippowdon
    Mamoswine
    Dragonite
    Rhyperior
    Steelix
    Hariyama
    Lapras
    Registeel
    Torterra
    Regirock
    Aggron
    Probopass
    Regigigas
    Camerupt
    Mantine
    Golem
    Wailord
    Glalie
    
    100 base power:

    Code:
    Salamence
    Forretress
    Magnezone
    Electivire
    Dusknoir
    Machamp
    Suicune
    Scizor
    Milotic
    Donphan
    Spiritomb
    Abomasnow
    Kingdra
    Tangrowth
    Arcanine
    Raikou
    Regice
    Claydol
    Walrein
    Cloyster
    Ursaring
    Rampardos
    Slaking
    Lickilicky
    Exeggutor
    Meganium
    Skuntank
    Lunatone
    Bastiodon
    Solrock
    Entei
    Dewgong
    
    80 base power:

    Code:
    Garchomp
    Lucario
    Infernape
    Starmie
    Swampert
    Skarmory
    Heracross
    Zapdos
    Cresselia
    Yanmega
    Tentacruel
    Deoxys-S
    Gallade
    Empoleon
    Charizard
    Crobat
    Slowbro
    Smeargle
    Sceptile
    Aerodactyl
    Cradily
    Ludicolo
    Drapion
    Venusaur
    Blastoise
    Flygon
    Moltres
    Typhlosion
    Magmortar
    Blaziken
    Miltank
    Feraligatr
    Nidoking
    Pinsir
    Electrode
    Cacturne
    Hypno
    Poliwrath
    Scyther
    Slowking
    Tauros
    Sharpedo
    Torkoal
    Nidoqueen
    Articuno
    Kangaskhan
    Hitmonchan
    Rapidash
    Kingler
    Ampharos
    Mr. Mime
    Armaldo
    Golduck
    Quagsire
    Dodrio
    Grumpig
    Shiftry
    Arbok
    Stantler
    Exploud
    Seviper
    Magcargo
    Tropius
    Swalot
    Magneton
    
    60 base power:

    Code:
    Gengar
    Blissey
    Gliscor
    Weavile
    Vaporeon
    Togekiss
    Breloom
    Porygon-Z
    Dugtrio
    Wobbuffet
    Alakazam
    Umbreon
    Froslass
    Hitmontop
    Floatzel
    Gardevoir
    Clefable
    Porygon2
    Medicham
    Absol
    Honchkrow
    Azumarill
    Houndoom
    Toxicroak
    Glaceon
    Kabutops
    Marowak
    Leafeon
    Persian
    Espeon
    Gastrodon
    Jynx
    Hitmonlee
    Sandslash
    Linoone
    Omastar
    Muk
    Zangoose
    Lopunny
    Raichu
    Manectric
    Primeape
    Butterfree
    Bibarel
    Luxray
    Octillery
    Politoed
    Noctowl
    Beedrill
    Sudowoodo
    Pidgeot
    Parasect
    Vespiquen
    Granbull
    Ledian
    Purugly
    Mightyena
    Furret
    Crawdaunt
    Girafarig
    Vigoroth
    Ariados
    Pelipper
    Delcatty
    Huntail
    Carnivine
    Fearow
    Seaking
    Dustox
    Kricketune
    Beautifly
    
    40 base power:

    Code:
    Jolteon
    Ninjask
    Roserade
    Staraptor
    Ambipom
    Shuckle
    Swellow
    Ninetales
    Lanturn
    Drifblim
    Banette
    Venomoth
    Relicanth
    Altaria
    Kecleon
    Vileplume
    Dunsparce
    Gorebyss
    Raticate
    Sableye
    Xatu
    Flareon
    Victreebel
    Mawile
    Wigglytuff
    Delibird
    Mothim
    Whiscash
    Lumineon
    Volbeat
    Illumise
    Farfetch'd
    
    20 base power:

    Code:
    Celebi
    Azelf
    Jirachi
    Mismagius
    Weezing
    Uxie
    Shaymin
    Mesprit
    Jumpluff
    Rotom
    Shedinja
    Qwilfish
    Pikachu
    Ditto
    Chatot
    Castform
    Phione
    Bellossom
    Cherrim
    Masquerain
    Corsola
    Sunflora
    Chimecho
    Pachirisu
    Plusle
    Minun
    Wormadam (Steel)
    Luvdisc
    Spinda
    Wormadam (Ground)
    Unown
    Wormadam (Grass)
    
  12. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    Thanks. That really helps a lot when determining which you need.

    edit: somewhat surprised glalie takes more then slaking...
  13. Phizzlax

    Phizzlax

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    I've been using Low Kick on Evire all along and it works pretty well. Sucks when Blissey/Umbreon/Porygon2/Z pop out though =/ but the 20% accuracy bonus helps. Most of the things you want to Cross-Chop as a non-stab move are heavy. Low kick has PP too, for what it's worth.
    Steelix
    TTar
    RegiALL
    Mamoswine
    Lapras
    Rhyperior

    Other things like Weavile die no matter how light they are.


    Good job on the Comparison X-act.
  14. Sixonesix

    Sixonesix
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    I'd forgotten how light Celebi, Weezing, and Jirachi all were. Not that you'd want to hit them with Grass Knot anyway, but still...

    Anyway, this is great, X-Act. Thanks.
  15. Pedochu

    Pedochu

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    Thank you. I'm going with Energy Ball on pretty much everything that has a choice (my Sceptile I'm breeding soon).

    And how does Dewgong weigh more than Garchomp?
  16. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    I have a pokemon weight book...

    Dewgong: 264.6 lbs
    Glalie: 565.6 lbs
    Garchomp: 209.4 lbs
  17. BlueCookies

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    I was thinking the same thing lol. I guess it's because Dewgong has Thick Fat.
  18. Articanus

    Articanus

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    Cookies, I'm not sure to consider that a bad joke or an honest answer =/

    Anyway, when you say "may's statistics", what number of pokemon does this include? all of them?

    If you would, could you see the average base power of grass knot on OU pokemon? I'm sure it would be higher.
  19. Bender

    Bender

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    In OU Grass knot is still the superior choice Gyarados, Tyranitar, Hippowdon, Milotic, Donphan and Suicune are hit for 100-120bp
  20. Cynthia

    Cynthia

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    Energy Ball is probably better as an overall STAB attack so that you don't get randomly walled by crap like Azelf. However, Grass Knot's higher BP comes in useful against specific threats where it hits harder (Ttar,Hippo etc.) Most Pokemon without Grass STAB get Grass Knot, not Energy Ball, anyway so its sort of moot.
  21. X-Act

    X-Act np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
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    When I say 'May's statistics', it automatically means that OU Pokemon are taken into account much more than non-OU ones. So what makes you so sure that it would be higher if I took into account OU Pokemon? I did take into account mostly OU Pokemon, since I took usages into account!

    You're saying that I'm wrong, then? I said that I took May's statistics into account.
  22. BlueCookies

    BlueCookies April Fools 2009 Participant
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    I think he means that in ladder matches we're unlikely to find pokemon in the 20BP group, like Unknown, Wormadam, Plusle, Luvdisc, where if you took pokemon like them away it might make it closer to 80BP. I still think I would choose Grass Knot on an OU pokemon because even if Energy Ball is superior, it's only by .1, which isn't much.

    Articanus: Well, I thought it was a good joke. I mean, it makes sense. Dewgong is apparently fat so it must weigh more than Garchomp x_x

    Also, if you're trying to decide Energy Ball or Grass Knot on a Pokemon like Celebi, even though by your statistics Energy Ball is better, Grass Knot is superior because you have to take into account who Celebi is trying to beat. A pokemon like Gyarados or Hiipowdon, who Celebi faces a lot more than Azelf, take Grass Knot at really high Base Power, making Grass Knot a superior choice.
  23. X-Act

    X-Act np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
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    By my statistics Energy Ball is not better. By my statistics they're both equally good.
  24. Tytus

    Tytus

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    I weigh more than Garchomp. Low Kick would have 80 base power against me :/
  25. Syberia

    Syberia [custom user title]
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    Well, it depends. If you're running a Grass move on your Jirachi, as I am, for the specific purpose of taking out Tyranitar, Swampert, and Rhyperior, among other threats, then Grass Knot is the better option. If you're running a Grass move on Celebi (who just happens to be your Gyarados counter), Grass Knot is again the better option. If you just need a somewhat reliable STAB sweeping move, Energy Ball might be the more reliable choice. The fact that they come out to have almost exactly the same base power just means that you need to look at other factors when you're trying to choose which move to use.

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