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Which is better, Energy Ball or Grass Knot? The official answer!

Discussion in 'Pokémetrics' started by X-Act, Jun 29, 2008.

  1. Gemerl

    Gemerl

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    lol....

    Anyways, this is really handy. I always wondered if there was a huge difference between the 2 moves, and this tells me that on average, both are about the same...

    Thanks, X-Act. This answered one of my oldest questions on which move is better overall...neither really, Grass Knot is just better against specific threats, so I guess it's just preference at this point.
  2. IggyBot

    IggyBot !battle
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    Unless I missed something somewhere and it's already been included, could you show calculations for seperate tiers, such as Grass Knot vs Energy for OU, BL, UU, ect? I'd do it myself right now, but I have to run to a soccer game and won't be back until later.
  3. X-Act

    X-Act np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
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    I don't have usage statistics for UU so I cannot do that.

    I repeat again that this used Shoddybattle statistics. It means it is for OU.
  4. Syberia

    Syberia [custom user title]
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    I imagine Energy Ball would be the better choice for UU. So many lighter pokemon there (Lanturn takes more from Energy Ball than Grass Knot, iirc. Gastrodon does too).
  5. Dragon-Shinobi

    Dragon-Shinobi

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    Thanks X-Act, it's good to know, I don't know what everyone's complaining about. Keep up the good work :).
  6. Flurries

    Flurries

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    From the data given, even without tier distinctions, my personal conclusion is that Grass Knot beats Energy Ball in OU, while Energy Ball is overall more effective in UU than Grass Knot.

    Just IMO though.

    Also, off the top of my head, Energy Ball is far more available in UU than Grass Knot, compared to OU.
  7. AJC

    AJC

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    not only is energy ball more widespread in UU most of the key stuff you'd use a grass move on is lighter than the 80 BP range in UU making Energy ball better than grass knot
  8. Thunderpup

    Thunderpup

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    I'd be interested in seeing how much damage it does for the pokemon who are weak to it, only. Obviously, it's not entirely realistic, but in terms of super-effective, I'd like to know which does more to the pokemon who are weak to it than something like crobat who 4x resists them both.

    If I'm correct, most rock/ground/waters in OU are really bulky.
  9. Mastadi

    Mastadi

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    In OU, only these pokemon take less damage from Grass Knot that they would from Energy Ball:
    Gengar
    Blissey
    Gliscor
    Weavile
    Vaporeon
    Togekiss
    Breloom
    Porygon-Z
    Dugtrio
    Wobbuffet
    Alakazam
    Jolteon
    Ninjask
    Celebi
    Azelf
    Jirachi

    out of which you probably would only use your grass move are Dugtrio and Vaporeon, so I believe GK is better choice.
  10. travisurfer

    travisurfer

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    On this note, I don't see exactly why Giga Drain isn't given a mention much on these boards. While it is a 60BP move, it does allow many pokes without a reliable recovery move the ability to shrug of Life Orb recoil and residual damage while only sacrificing 20BP from the averages of Grass Knot or Energy Ball.
  11. Lawman

    Lawman

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    The recovery is usually too little unless it is 4x SE and even then many pokemon who learn it have more viable and reliable ways of immediate recovery, such as Leech Seed, Synthesis, Recover, and so on.
  12. IggyBot

    IggyBot !battle
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    Alright, sorry. I suppose I did miss it then, it's my fault for merely skimming the thread before I left.

    I did want to post something along the lines of Mastadi's list. While the statistical average may be the same, when you look at what you're actually going to use these attacks again, Grass Knot normally comes out on top (except of course, in the case of Dugtrio and Vaporeon).
  13. X-Act

    X-Act np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
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    I don't understand.

    In the "Average Damage done by moves" thread, people told me "this isn't too useful because your opponent will end up trying to counter the move so that it hits for not very effective damage".

    Now people are saying "this isn't too useful because you will end up trying to use the move so that it hits for super effective damage".

    I don't know... sometimes I just end up smiling to myself in disbelief.

    Anyway, it doesn't work like that. Sometimes you outpredict your opponent, and sometimes your opponent outpredicts you. So it's not very useful finding only the case when the move hits for SE. And it's not very useful finding only the case when the move hits for NVE. All the cases should be considered together, because sometimes you outpredict the opponent, and sometimes you get outpredicted.

    Just so you know, I did exactly the same process here as I did in that thread. The only difference is that I calculated the average damage for two moves only here (Grass Knot and Low Kick), because the move power depends on the opponent. In the other thread, the move power for all moves is constant.

    What I've shown is that Grass Knot and Energy Ball deal roughly the same amount of damage in the long run. So now it's up to you to decide which to incorporate in your movesets since, as far as I'm concerned, they're about equal.
  14. Aldaron

    Aldaron indefatigable workhorse
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    Ignore the people who said otherwise: a move's usefulness is predominantly determined by what it is expected to hit.

    If I was one of the people that said otherwise before...fuck me!

    Seriously though, a move's usefulness is predominantly determined by what it is expected to hit.

    Note I say expected, and this does not necessarily only mean SE damage.
  15. EvilMario

    EvilMario

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    This is exactly it. While knowing the averages is interesting, Grass Knot/Energy Ball will often come down to what specific threats you want the Pokemon to cover.
  16. RaikouLover

    RaikouLover

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    it depends 100% on the pokemon using it!! Energy ball is the superior choice on the Ludicolo I always used, just to beat Vaporeon. And a lot of the arguments sound silly anyway... "Oh it does more the Milotic and Suicune..." Too bad it 2HKOs all 3!!!

    Grass Knot I think is the better unSTABed choice because its usually only used to beat bulky grounds. But if its a Grass Pokemon I'll usually take Energy Ball or... Leafstorm!
  17. Thunderpup

    Thunderpup

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    If you were referring to me, I made it clear that I understood that it wasn't realistic to expect you're always going to hit for super effective with either move. Obviously, the same pokemon wall each move each time.

    Personally, I'm a big fan of Leaf Storm, because if you're going to be walled, why not hit harder?
  18. RaikouLover

    RaikouLover

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    I wasn't referring to anyone personally, just the general consensus that grass knot > any other grass move, which is entirely dependant upon what role the pokemon using it is. I prefere Leafstorm or Energy Ball on a grass that needs to do consistent or heavy damage. Grass Knot I usually only use on something to hit bulky grounds super-effective, or Celebi to counter Gyarados
  19. umbarsc

    umbarsc

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    I think Syberia phrased it nicely on the previous page. I use Energy Ball on my Specs Sceptile, and Grass Knot on my Jirachi, because of the purposes. As Sceptile could very easily be facing something like Azelf, its general STAB option should not have varying power.
  20. -FL-

    -FL-

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    Wow, Glalie really needs to put down some weight.</firebot>

    Grass Knot is usually a better option to choose, mainly because Pokémon who use it don't have the STAB bonus, but need to hit things like Gyarados and Tyranitar harder. And for those who do have said bonus, either they learn Leaf Storm or have more support capabilities (Sceptile, Roserade, Venusaur).
  21. IggyBot

    IggyBot !battle
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    No X-Act, I'm not trying to say this is usless at all, please don't take it that way!

    I realize why you made this list, and I was an idiot for not entirly understanding everything about it before posting, so like Aldaron said, ignore me/everyone else.
  22. X-Act

    X-Act np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
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    It's alright, no worries. I just thought it was kinda funny, actually. Don't worry about it.
  23. blasphemy1

    blasphemy1

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    I think overall Grass Knot is the better choice on most pokemon, tho it really does come down to specific pokemon. For example, Celebi would use Grass Knot in order to counter Gyarados and Tyranitar hard, and it has no issues with Vaporeon due to Leech Seed/Recover, so being light doesn't save her.

    I honestly can't think of an OU pokemon that would rather run Energy Ball over Grass Knot.
  24. TVboyCanti

    TVboyCanti

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    X-Act, could you please include the base power of knot and ball when only counting pokemon that are weak and nuetral to grass attacks? I don't think it matters what the base damage is against things that resist grass moves, since people won't be using either knot or ball on grass resisters.

    Also, I hope you counted the BP for both moves as 0 when used against shedinja. Otherwise that would raise the BP of energyball in relation to knot.
  25. RaikouLover

    RaikouLover

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    Well, they are BL but Sceptile and Ludicolo will probably be the best users of Energy Ball because Sceptile needs consistent damage and can subseed anyway, and Ludicolo wants Energy Ball to blast through Vaporeon. Even with a Life Orb, Grass Knot is not a OHKO on any bulky waters, and may not 2HKO Vaporeon. However, Energy Ball is a guarenteed 2HKO on ALL of them anyway, making it the far superior option IMO.

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