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Whiscash (BW2 Update) [QC: 3/3] [GP: 2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Alonsoforever, Aug 13, 2013.

  1. Alonsoforever

    Alonsoforever

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    [​IMG]
    (Alakazam is jealous of my whispers!)

    QC: 3/3 (ebeast / WhiteDMist / Treecko )
    GP: 2/2 ( sirndpt / melvni )

    [Overview]

    <p>Whiscash has access to the uncommon Dragon Dance, which it can use quite effectively to sweep late-game thanks to its good bulk and great defensive typing that leaves it with just one weakness. However, it faces competition from Samurott and Carracosta as a boosting sweeper, as the former is also bulky, has better offensive stats, and has access to Aqua Jet to beat faster threats and Megahorn to destroy Grass-types, and the latter can use Shell Smash to become an immediate threat. Whiscash is also quite slow&mdash;many Pokemon and almost every Choice Scarf user outspeed it even after a Dragon Dance boost&mdash;and its Attack is average, meaning it will need a few boosts in order to become a threatening sweeper.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Dragon Dance
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Substitute
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Waterfall
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Hydration
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 172 HP / 80 Atk / 32 Def / 224 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This is Whiscash's best option for achieving a sweep late-game, but it needs some team support to work. It uses Substitute, its good natural bulk, and its great typing to get as many Dragon Dance boosts as possible and then smash the opposing team with its STAB moves. Dragon Dance is Whiscash's most important move, as it boosts Whiscash's offensive stats to respectable levels. Earthquake is Whiscash's strongest STAB, and it will deal good damage to most Pokemon that do not resist it. Waterfall complements Earthquake pretty well, providing Whiscash with coverage against most non-Grass-types. It also has a nice flinch rate that Whiscash can take advantage of with Speed boosts from Dragon Dance.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread allows Whiscash to create 101 HP Substitutes and ensures Alomomola's Waterfall never breaks its Substitute. The spread also enables Whiscash to outspeed non-Choice Scarf Jynx, Haunter, and Primeape after a Dragon Dance boost. Whiscash can also run full offensive investment with a Life Orb, a Jolly nature, and Stone Edge over Substitute. However, that set, while stronger, finds setting up much harder, and because it also needs a few boosts to be threatening, it is generally a less reliably way for Whiscash to sweep. This more offensive approach lets Whiscash outspeed Pokemon such as Serperior, Charizard, and Swoobat after a Dragon Dance boost, though, so it's not to be dismissed. Hydration is used as Whiscash's main ability; while it might be situational, it's the least useless of the three abilities Whiscash has access to and is very useful if rain is up. Anticipation would be nice if it warned about Hidden Power Grass, but Hidden Power is always taken to be a Normal-type move and the ability only activates when you send Whiscash out, making it a poor choice.</p>

    <p>Whiscash has trouble getting past Grass-type Pokemon such as Torterra, Tangela, and Ludicolo, so teammates that can beat those Pokemon are necessary. Scolipede and Roselia make great partners for Whiscash, as they boast a superb 4x resistance to Grass-type moves and can also provide Whiscash with Spikes and Toxic Spikes support, easing its sweep, and opportunities to switch in and set up against Fire-type attacks aimed at them. Garbodor is also a nice teammate, as it resists Grass-type moves and can also reliably set up Spikes and Toxic Spikes. These three Pokemon can also absorb Toxic Spikes, which is incredibly helpful for Whiscash outside of rain. Braviary and Charizard deal with Grass-type Pokemon easily, as they can switch in on a predicted Grass-type move and destroy them with Brave Bird and Fire Blast, respectively. LumRest Exeggutor makes a nice partner for Whiscash as well, as it can beat most Grass-type Pokemon easily and it doesn't fear being put to sleep thanks to Lum Berry and Harvest. Meanwhile, Whiscash can deal with the Fire-type Pokemon that threaten Exeggutor. Specially offensive Water-types are also difficult for Whiscash to deal with, so Regice and Ludicolo make good partners. Ludicolo can also provide Whiscash with rain support, making Waterfall a much stronger move and activating Hydration.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>A tank set might seem appealing because of Whiscash's nice bulk and great typing, but such a set would be outclassed by Seismitoad, which has a Water immunity, access to Stealth Rock, and better offensive prowess. However, Whiscash has access to Hydration + Rest, which in conjunction with Rain Dance gives Whiscash reliable recovery and a way to avoid status, something Seismitoad doesn't have. On such a set, Whiscash should be running special attacks such as Earth Power, Ice Beam, and Hydro Pump. Whiscash can also run Ice Beam on physical sets to catch Torterra and Tangela off guard. Aqua Tail can replace Waterfall if you want more power, but the inferior accuracy and lack of flinch chance make it unappealing. Zen Headbutt can be used to hit Weezing, but it's not worth giving up a moveslot for it. Return has great coverage with Waterfall, but Stone Edge and Zen Headbutt are better coverage options. Bounce can be used to hit Grass-type Pokemon super effectively, but the charging turn makes it easy to avoid. Finally, Whiscash can run Toxic to inflict status on its opponents, something that can be useful against an incoming Grass-type Pokemon or Alomomola.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Almost any Grass-type Pokemon can threaten Whiscash, as they can normally take a hit and then OHKO Whiscash with a STAB move. Ludicolo resists Whiscash's STAB moves and can OHKO it using Giga Drain. Torterra and Tangela make great counters due to their bulk and typing, but they must be wary of the rare Ice Beam. Serperior and Exeggutor can also deal with Whiscash without much trouble with good physical bulk and access to Giga Drain; Serperior can even outspeed most +1 Whiscash. Cradily can take a boosted Earthquake well and destroy Whiscash with Giga Drain. Mantine deserves a special mention as a counter if Whiscash only uses its STAB moves, as Water Absorb variants are immune to both of them. Physically defensive Misdreavus doesn't take much damage from Whiscash's attacks and can hit it with a strong Foul Play or burn it with Will-O-Wisp. Misdreavus can even outspeed and Taunt Whiscash if it hasn't set up yet. Gurdurr can set up Bulk Up at the same time Whiscash uses Dragon Dance, and it will always win that war if Whiscash doesn't get a critical hit or multiple flinches. Swellow can switch in on a predicted Earthquake or after a KO and proceed to outspeed and deal massive damage to Whiscash even after a Dragon Dance, making it a nice offensive check. Prankster Encore users, such as Liepard and Volbeat, can switch in on a predicted Dragon Dance or Substitute and force Whiscash out. Toxic Spikes reduces Whiscash's potential considerably as it needs many setup turns to be a threat, so being poisoned significantly reduces the time it has to sweep. Common users of this move include Roselia, Garbodor, and Scolipede.</p>

    <p>Whiscash's main problem is that, even after a boost, it lacks the power to OHKO or even 2HKO bulky Pokemon, especially if they resist Earthquake, meaning that even if it has managed to set up a Dragon Dance, many Pokemon, such as Musharna and Mandibuzz, while not capable of switching in safely, can come in after a KO and beat Whiscash one-on-one. If you don't allow Whiscash to set up many Dragon Dances, you should do fine against it.</p>

    Skeleton:
    Show Hide
    [Overview]
    • Great defensive typing that leaves it with just one weakness (Grass) and many resistances.
    • It learns the uncommon Dragon Dance, and has good bulk to use it effectively. Furthermore, its typing gives it many chances to set up.
    • Faces competition from Samurott as a boosting Pokémon as Samurott is also bulky, has better offensive stats, and has access to Aqua Jet to beat faster threats and Megahorn to destroy Grass-types, while Whiscash uses speed boosts from Dragon Dance, has STAB Earthquake, and a better defensive typing.
    • Its Speed is bad, meaning that even after a Dragon Dance many Pokémon and almost every Choice Scarf user will outspeed it.
    • Its Attack is average, so it will lack power to outdamage bulky Pokémon before setting up a few Dragon Dances.
    [SET]
    name: Bulky Dragon Dance
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Substitute
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Waterfall
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Hydration
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 172 HP / 80 Atk / 32 Def / 224 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • This is Whiscash's best option for getting as many boosts as possible, but it needs a lot of team support to work.
    • Via the use of Substitute, Whiscash tries to get as many boosts as possible with Dragon Dance and then sweep.
    • Whiscash can create quite sturdy Substitutes with 101 HP, so Seismic Toss and Night Shade won't break them. Besides, it allows Whiscash to avoid status and Sucker Punch.
    • Earthquake is Whiscash's strongest move.
    • Waterfall is also a very reliable move with a nice flinch rate.
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • The EV spread allows Whiscash to create 101 HP Substitutes and ensures Alomomola's Waterfall never breaks Whiscash's Substitute. It also enables Whiscash to outspeed non-Scarf Jynx, Haunter and Primeape after a Dragon Dance boost. The rest goes to Attack to maximize Whiscash's power.
    • An Adamant nature is used as Whiscash needs to be as strong as possible.
    • A more offensive Whiscash can be used with the spread 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe, with a Life Orb, a Jolly nature, and with Stone Edge instead of Substitute. However, that Whiscash, while stronger, will find setting up much harder, and also needs a few boosts to be threatening, thus making the bulky set the most reliable way Whiscash can set up some Dragon Dances and sweep.
    • The offensive spread, however, lets Whiscash outspeed Pokémon such as Serperior, Charizard and Swoobat after a Dragon Dance boost, and also gives Whiscash better coverage thanks to Stone Edge.
    • Hydration is used because, while it's situational, it's the less useless of the three abilities. Anticipation would be nice if it warned about Hidden Power Grass, but it doesn't, and only activates when you send Whiscash to fight.
    • This set cannot deal with Grass-types like Tangela, Exeggutor, or Ludicolo.
    • Scolipede and Roselia make great teammates for Whiscash as they boast a great x4 resistance to Grass and can support Whiscash via Spikes and Toxic Spikes, and Scolipede can even Baton Pass an Attack or Speed boost to it.
    • Garbodor can take Grass-type attacks too and set up Spikes and Toxic Spikes to ease Whiscash's sweep.
    • Braviary makes a good teamate as well, as it switch in on Grass-types and destroy them via a super effective Brave Bird.
    • LumRest Exeggutor is great as it can take both Alomomola and Tangela rather easily.
    • Regice and Ludicolo can deal with special attacking Water-type Pokémon, so they make good partners. Ludicolo can provide Whiscash with Rain as well, making Whiscash's Waterfall much stronger and making Whiscash immune to status thanks to Hydration.
    • Stealth Rock support from the likes of Golurk, Regirock, Golem is nice as it nets Whiscash some OHKOs and 2HKOs after a Dragon Dance such as Regirock, Eelektross...
    [Other Options]
    • There are not many more viable options, as Whiscash will probably be outclassed by Seismitoad when running other sets.
    • A tank set may seem appealing, but Seismitoad does it better thanks to its Water immunity, access to Stealth Rock and better offensive prowess.
    • Whiscash has, however, access to Hydration + Rest over Seismitoad, which in conjunction with Rain Dance, give it a way to avoid status.
    • In such a set, Whiscash should run special attacks such as Scald, Earth Power, Hydro Pump, or Ice Beam.
    • Ice Beam is a good option even on physical sets to catch Tangela and Torterra off guard.
    • Whiscash can run Aqua Tail instead of Waterfall, but the latter's better accuracy and good secondary effect make it a better choice most times.
    • Whiscash learns Zen Headbutt, and it is his best move against Weezing, Roselia, Vileplume and Fighting-types so it can be a nice option.
    • Return has great coverage with Waterfall, but Stone Edge and Earthquake are better coverage options.
    • Bounce hits Grass-types super effectively, but the charging turn makes it less appealing and easy to avoid.
    • Finally, Whiscash can run Toxic to inflict status on its opponents.
    [Checks and Counters]
    • Almost every Grass-type Pokémon can threaten Whiscash, as they can normally take a hit and then OHKO Whiscash with Giga Drain, recovering the HP they may have lost.
    • Torterra and Tangela make great counters, the former due to its typing, and the latter for its gargantuan Defense, but they must be wary of Ice Beam.
    • Exeggutor, Serperior, and Ludicolo also work, but they must be wary of a boosted Stone Edge (they can recover the lost health by using Giga Drain though).
    • Cradily can take Whiscash's attacks easily and OHKO it with Giga Drain, regaining most of its lost health.
    • Physically defensive Seismitoad also does well in countering Whiscash.
    • Prankster Encore users, such as Liepard or Volbeat, can switch in on a predicted Dragon Dance or Substitute and force it out.
    • Swellow can switch in on a predicted Earthquake and proceed to outspeed and KO +1 Speed Whiscash with its powerful Facade if Whiscash isn't at full health.
    • Toxic Spikes reduce Whiscash's lifespan considerably.
    • Physically defensive Misdreavus is also a great counter as it can take Whiscash hits easily, and doesn't allow Whiscash to set up easily thanks to Foul Play.
    • Whiscash's main problem is that even after a boost, it lacks the power to OHKO bulky Pokémon, especially if they resist Earthquake, meaning that even if it has managed to set up a Dragon Dance, many Pokémon (such us Musharna, or Gurdurr), while not capable of switching safely in on Whiscash, can come after a KO and beat Whiscash.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 21, 2013
  2. WhiteDMist

    WhiteDMist PU! We don't stink though!
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    I'm going to test out Whiscash some more before I QC check this, but I have some doubts about Offensive DD. Regardless, here are some things I see that you should fix no matter what.

    [Overview]
    That first point is unnecessary, so remove it. Merge the last point with the third point, since you are basically suggesting Seismitoad is the better option most of the time regardless. Points 6 and 7 should just merge, but w.e. this is just the skeleton.

    [Bulky DD]
    The point of 101 Subs is that Seismic Toss and Night Shade users cannot break it in a hit, so mention that rather than Alomomola. In AC, you mention Rotom-W (throughout the whole analysis actually) which is OU. Change it to Rotom-S or F please. If you are going to mention entry hazards, you need to explain what important KOs it nets Whiscash, otherwise remove it since every Pokemon appreciates entry hazards. If you are going to explain Leftovers, then add it the fact that it allows Whiscash to keep making Subs, about 5 times (preferably just merge it with the point about the HP EVs).

    [Offensive DD]
    Remove mention of outspeeding 192 Serperior, max Speed is the most common. Again, don't mention hazards unless there are specific KOs that it receives.

    [Checks and Counters]
    I wouldn't mention Cradily, since boosted Earthquakes do a lot.
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2013
  3. Alonsoforever

    Alonsoforever

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    Thank you WhiteDMist, made the changes.

    About Rotom-W, that was a lapse of me, I meant Rotom-S all the time, sorry for the confusion. And about Sub, I know 101 HP Subs is for that, but I wanted to mention that Alomomola has trouble breaking it.

    I think Whiscash needs Entry Hazards support, because it's rather weak and has trouble OHKOing or 2HkoING the opponents:

    +1 104+ Atk Whiscash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Regirock: 162-192 (44.5 - 52.74%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    +1 104+ Atk Whiscash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Regirock: 162-192 (44.5 - 52.74%) -- 86.33% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    +1 104+ Atk Whiscash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Regirock: 176-210 (48.35 - 57.69%) -- 50.78% chance to 2HKO
    +1 104+ Atk Whiscash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Regirock: 176-210 (48.35 - 57.69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    +1 104+ Atk Whiscash Waterfall vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Eelektross: 157-186 (44.35 - 52.54%) -- 19.92% chance to 2HKO
    +1 104+ Atk Whiscash Waterfall vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Eelektross: 157-186 (44.35 - 52.54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    +1 104+ Atk Whiscash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Seismitoad: 205-243 (49.51 - 58.69%) -- 70.31% chance to 2HKO
    +1 104+ Atk Whiscash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Seismitoad: 205-243 (49.51 - 58.69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Spikes

    +1 252 Atk Life Orb Whiscash Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 260-307 (75.8 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +1 252 Atk Life Orb Whiscash Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 260-307 (75.8 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2013
  4. Vivmeister10

    Vivmeister10

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    Hmm, if I'm not mistaken, I believe Anticipation does activate if the opposition has HP Grass, correct me if I'm wrong though.
    Don't forget to mention Hydration if using it in Rain!
  5. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    [Overview]
    I don't think you should make that comparison to Seismitoad here because they play completely differently from one another. Whiscash is not used as a support mon like Seismitoad is, but rather a Dragon Dance booster. Since none of its sets actually use Hydration I don't see a point in keeping that point either. I would just summarize everything by saying that Whiscash is a Dragon Dance user that uses its good bulk and great typing to set up. Add that it faces competition against Samurott as a boosting Pokemon, who also has great bulk and deal with faster opponents. (Aqua Jet while Whiscash has DD's Speed boosts)

    [Set] (Bulky DD)
    Make the EV spread: 172 HP / 112 Atk / 224 Spe Adamant. 112 Atk hits an Attack jump point while 172 HP still gives you 101 HP Substitutes. Make the order of the moves: Dragon Dance / Substitute / Earthquake / Waterfall. Make the ability Hydration. Even though it's really situational, Anticipation is basically useless since it only works when you bring Whiscash into a Pokemon. Since it doesn't warn about Hidden Power Grass, the only real Pokemon using Grass-type attacks will either be Grass-types or mons that commonly carry a Grass-type move (Eelektross) in which case it doesn't help at all.

    [Additional Comments] (Bulky DD)
    Don't mention Magmar and replace Swellow's mention with Braviary. Magmar is irrelevant and Swellow is too frail to switch into those Pokemon; Braviary has good bulk and access to Roost to make it easier. Definitely move Scolipede's mention (also add Garbodor) above the mention of Braviary. TSpikes is really awesome support for Whiscash. Add LumRest Exeggutor as a partner; it can beat Alomomola and Tangela without any trouble. Add Charizard in here, it has cool synergy with Whiscash and beats up all the Grass-types that give it trouble. Talk about why Hydration > Anticipation.

    [Set] (Off. DD)
    Move order: DD / EQ / Waterfall / Stone Edge

    [Additional Comment] (Off. DD)
    Remove mention of Ice Beam, that can go in OO instead. Instead of Magmar and Swellow mentions use: LumRest Eggy and Braviary instead. Instead of Miltank use Sawsbuck instead as it can take on Alomomola and non HP Ice Tangela while still being immune to Grass-type attacks.

    [Other Options]
    Remove the 4th and 5th points.

    [Checks and Counters]
    What's up with the "in the rain points". Whiscash is rarely be in the Rain and Ludicolo is a great check regardless of Rain or not. Remove 11th and 12th points. Also add Cradily back as a counter; it definitely does a good job at it. It can take EQs very well and KO back with Giga Drain, regaining most if not all of its health. (It hardwalls SubDD and vs LO it can take 2 LO +0 EQs or 1 LO +1 EQ and KO back with Giga Drain; regaining all of its health back in the process.

    Implement and I can stamp it later.
  6. Alonsoforever

    Alonsoforever

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    Made the changes, thanks!
  7. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    Looks good to me

    [​IMG]
    TROP likes this.
  8. Hollywood

    Hollywood 12/10 personality
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    I'll leave @WhiteDMist to comment on the offensive set, as I've never used either, but I'll throw out a few things before he gives a full QC check.

    First off, some of your tags are off. [SET], [SET COMMENTS], and [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS] should all be in full caps. [Overview], [Other Options], and [Checks and Counters] are all correct. Also, while it doesn't matter while this is in skeleton form, once you write the analysis, be sure not to use accented "e" in "Pokemon."

    [SET COMMENTS] (Bulky Dragon Dance)
    Mention that Substitute allows Whiscash to dodge Sucker Punch and status. Unlike other sweepers that boost a defensive stat, it's usually not too difficult for things to break Whiscash's Substitute.

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS] (Bulky Dragon Dance)
    Specifically state that the Speed EVs allow Whiscash to outspeed Jynx, Haunter, and Primeape after it gets a Dragon Dance boost.
    You have a lot of partners here. You only need a few. I recommend combining Roselia and Scolipede's points and cutting Rotom-S, Jynx, and Charizard. Sure, they are good partners, but you already have a lot of partners that also deal with Grass-types, Alomomola, and Seismitoad.

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS] (Offensive Dragon Dance)
    Again, make sure to note that it only outspeeds these things after a Dragon Dance boost.

    [Other Options]
    Zen Headbutt also hits Roselia and Vileplume, so that's something to note. It could actually be a decent option.

    [Checks and Counters]
    Mention that Weezing can burn Whiscash with Will-O-Wisp.

    This is pretty good. Make these changes, and we'll see what WhiteDMist has come up with for the offensive set!
  9. Alonsoforever

    Alonsoforever

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    Thanks @Treecko! Changes made. And about the Pokémon thing, I am used to writing it with the accent, so I did it in the skeleton without even thinking of it, but I won't use the accent when I write this up.
  10. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
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    we were talking about this on irc earlier today and a lot of QC members think the offensive set should just be AC of the bulky one. Both of them need a lot of boosts before theyre threats, so having an EV spread that lets you set up is just a lot better for Whiscash right now.

    Also if theres an EV spread to have alomomola waterfall not break the sub definitely use that
  11. Alonsoforever

    Alonsoforever

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    Do you think then this is the best EV spread: 172 HP / 80 Atk / 32 Def / 224 Spe or is it taking out too many Attack EVs? With the current spread Alomomola will fail to break the Subs most of the time so if it casually breaks it you just make another. However, when making sure Alomomola never breaks the Sub, you lose some power. Is it worth then?

    0 Atk Alomomola Waterfall vs. 172 HP / 32 Def Whiscash: 84-100 (20.79 - 24.75%)

    (Previous) 0 Atk Alomomola Waterfall vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Whiscash: 88-105 (21.78 - 25.99%).

    EDIT: Removed Off DD, and added two points to the AC of the Bulky DD set talking about the offensive spread.
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2013
  12. WhiteDMist

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    Yeah make that the EV spread. The difference in power is slight, and either way you need a few boosts to do notable damage to opponents regardless.

    You make a lot of mentions of teammates that deal with Grass-types, but you have very few teammate suggestions for opposing special attacking Water-types. Add a mention of Water checks/counters such as Ludicolo and Regice, and emphasize that the Rain Ludicolo can bring to the table as a bonus.

    Remove Alomomola and Weezing from Checks and Counters, Whiscash sets up on them unless they status on the switch in. Since the offensive DD set is no longer a main set, you can remove most of the mentions of it from the analysis (except for the AC mention).

    [​IMG]
    QC 2/3
  13. Alonsoforever

    Alonsoforever

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    Thanks @WhiteDMist, changes made. I'll finish wrting this up as soon as I can.

    Edit: Noticed that after changing the EV spread, those 3HKOes turning into 2HKOes with Stealth Rock do no longer work. As Whiscash's goal is to set up many Dragon Dances, I don't think now I'll mention Stealth Rock support, as it's not that important for Whiscash, and I already wrote about Spikes and Toxic Spikes when mentioning Garbo, Roselia, and Scoli, so that should be enough of entry hazards support to write about. If QC members don't agree, then of course I'll mention SR. What do you think?
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2013
  14. Alonsoforever

    Alonsoforever

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    This is written. Made a few changes when writing this up, but not very important ones. Just removed Zen Headbutt from Other Options and added it to the AC of the set, as, for the reasons @Treecko gave, it's worth more than just OO. I also explained how Gurdurr can deal with Whiscash as it can set up Bulk Up while Whiscash's sets Dragon Dance up, always winning that war barring crits. Mantine was added as a counter as well as with Water Absorb it's immune to both Whiscash's STAB moves. Also added it faces competition as a boosting sweeper from Carracosta as well.
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2013
  15. ebeast

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    bump, I already QC'd it. This could use a 3rd
  16. Hollywood

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    Alonsoforever

    I edited my changes directly into the OP. It was mostly just minor grammatical tweaks, and this was a really good analysis! Just remember to use <p></p> tags surrounding bodies of text in the future. Get it to grammar!

    QC Approved 3/3
  17. Alonsoforever

    Alonsoforever

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    Ok, thank you very much, sorry about the <p> tags, I forgot about them. This is now ready for GP!
  18. sirndpt

    sirndpt
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    gp 1/2
  19. Alonsoforever

    Alonsoforever

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    Thanks sirndpt! This just needs one more GP check. I also tried to make the part about Anticipation clearer.
  20. melvni

    melvni
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    Alonsoforever
    Additions in Blue
    Subtractions in Red
    Comments in Purple
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    [Overview]

    <p>Despite its silly appearance, Whiscash isn't by any means a bad Pokemon. It Whiscash has access to the uncommon Dragon Dance, which it can use it quite effectively to sweep late-game thanks to its good bulk and great defensive typing that leaves it with just one weakness. However, Whiscash it faces competition from Samurott and Carracosta as a boosting sweeper, as the former is also bulky, has better offensive stats, and has access to Aqua Jet to beat faster threats and Megahorn to destroy Grass-types, and the latter can use Shell Smash to become an immediate threat. Whiscash is also quite slow&mdash;many Pokemon and almost every Choice Scarf user outspeed it even after a Dragon Dance boost&mdash;and its Attack is average, meaning it will need a few boosts in order to become a threatening sweeper.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Bulky Dragon Dance
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Substitute
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Waterfall
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Hydration
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 172 HP / 80 Atk / 32 Def / 224 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This is Whiscash's best option for achieving a sweep late-game, but it needs some team support to work. It uses Substitute, its good natural bulk, and its great typing to get as many Dragon Dance boosts as possible and then smash the opposing team with its STAB moves. Dragon Dance is Whiscash's most important move, as it boosts Whiscash's offensive stats to respectable levels. Earthquake is Whiscash's strongest STAB, and it will deal good damage to most Pokemon that do not resist it. Waterfall complements Earthquake pretty well, providing Whiscash with a reliable secondary STAB that grants it good coverage on against most Pokemon except for non-Grass-types. It also has a nice flinch rate that Whiscash can utilize take advantage of with Speed boosts from Dragon Dance.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread allows Whiscash to create 101 HP Substitutes and ensures Alomomola's Waterfall never breaks its Substitute. It The spread also enables Whiscash to outspeed non-Choice Scarf Jynx, Haunter, and Primeape after a Dragon Dance boost. Whiscash can also run full offensive investment with a Life Orb, a Jolly nature, and Stone Edge over Substitute. However, that set, while stronger, will find finds setting up much harder, and because it also needs a few boosts to be threatening, the bulky set is the most reliable way Whiscash can it is generally a less reliably way for Whiscash to sweep. This more offensive approach of Whiscash lets it lets Whiscash outspeed Pokemon such as Serperior, Charizard, and Swoobat after a Dragon Dance boost, though, so it's not to be dismissed.</p>

    <p>Hydration is used as Whiscash's main ability; while it might be situational, it's the least useless of the three abilities Whiscash has access to and is very useful if rain is up. Anticipation would be nice if it warned about Hidden Power Grass, but Hidden Power is always taken to be a Normal-type move and the ability only activates when you send Whiscash to fight out, making it a poor choice. Oblivious is also incredibly situational. Hydration is very useful if rain is up, as immunity to status is great, making it the best choice. For other possible coverage options, Zen Headbutt is perhaps the most appealing one and can replace Waterfall, as it is Whiscash's best move against Weezing and Grass / Poison-type Poison type (you don't include a dash for Pokemon with two types) Pokemon such as Vileplume and Roselia. It also hits Fighting-type Pokemon super effectively, but it leaves Whiscash with no way of damaging Mandibuzz. Stone Edge can also replace Waterfall, as it gives Whiscash the famous EdgeQuake combo known for its great coverage, but the lack of STAB is unappealing.</p>

    <p>Whiscash has trouble getting past Grass-type Pokemon such as Torterra, Tangela, and Ludicolo, so teammates that can beat those Pokemon are necessary. Scolipede and Roselia make great partners for Whiscash, as they boast a superb 4x resistance to Grass-type moves and can also provide Whiscash with Spikes and Toxic Spikes support, easing its sweep, while Whiscash can set up on and opportunities to switch in and set up against (there are definitely other changes that work here if you don't like this one, but while shouldn't be used other than in the ways V0x explained in this post) Fire-type attacks aimed at them. Garbodor is also a nice teammate, as it resists Grass-type moves and can also reliably set up Spikes and Toxic Spikes. These three Pokemon can also absorb Toxic Spikes, which are is incredibly annoying helpful (I know this somewhat changes the meaning, but I'm like 97% sure Toxic Spikes is singular but changing are to is made it seem a little unclear what the which clause was referring to) for Whiscash outside of rain. Braviary and Charizard deal with Grass-type Pokemon easily, as they can switch in on a predicted Grass-type move and destroy them with Brave Bird and Fire Blast, respectively. LumRest Exeggutor makes a nice partner for Whiscash as well, as it can beat most Grass-type Pokemon easily (though it must be wary of their Poison-type coverage moves), (remove comma) and it doesn't fear being put to sleep thanks to Lum Berry and Harvest. Meanwhile, Whiscash can deal with the Fire-type Pokemon that threaten Exeggutor. Specially offensive Water-types are also annoying difficult for Whiscash to deal with, so Regice and Ludicolo make good partners. Ludicolo can also provide Whiscash with rain support, making Waterfall a much stronger move and activating Hydration, granting Whiscash a very useful immunity to status.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>A tank set might seem appealing because of Whiscash's nice bulk and great typing, but such a set would be outclassed by Seismitoad, which has a Water immunity, access to Stealth Rock, and better offensive prowess. However, Whiscash has access to Hydration + Rest, which in conjunction with Rain Dance give gives Whiscash reliable recovery and a way to avoid status, something Seismitoad doesn't have. On such a set, Whiscash should be running special attacks such as Scald, Earth Power, Ice Beam, and Hydro Pump. Whiscash can also run Ice Beam on physical sets to catch Torterra and Tangela off guard. Aqua Tail can replace Waterfall if you want more power, but the inferior accuracy and lack of flinch chance make it unappealing. Return has great coverage with Waterfall, but Stone Edge and Zen Headbutt are better coverage options. Bounce can be used to hit Grass-type Pokemon super effectively, but the charging turn makes it easy to avoid. Finally, Whiscash can run Toxic to inflict status on its opponents, something that can be annoying for useful against an incoming Grass-type Pokemon or Alomomola.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Almost any all Grass-type Pokemon can threaten Whiscash, as they can normally take a hit and then OHKO Whiscash with Giga Drain, recovering the HP they might have lost a STAB move (not all Grass-types use Giga Drain). Ludicolo resists Whiscash's STAB moves and can OHKO it using Giga Drain. Torterra and Tangela make great counters thanks due to their bulk and typing, but they must be wary of the occasional Ice Beam. Serperior and Exeggutor can also deal with Whiscash without much trouble with good physical bulk and access to Giga Drain; Serperior can even outspeed most +1 Whiscash. Cradily doesn't enjoy taking a boosted Earthquake, but it has the bulk to endure it and destroy Whiscash with Giga Drain. Mantine deserves a special mention as a counter if Whiscash only uses its STAB moves, as Water Absorb variants are immune to both of them. Physically defensive Misdreavus doesn't take much damage from Whiscash's attacks and can hit it with a strong Foul Play or burn it with Will-O-Wisp. Misdreavus can even outspeed and Taunt Whiscash if it hasn't set up yet. Gurdurr can set up Bulk Up at the same time Whiscash uses Dragon Dance, and it will always win that war if Whiscash doesn't get a critical hit or multiple flinches. Swellow can switch in on a predicted Earthquake or after a KO and proceed to outspeed and KO Whiscash even after a Dragon Dance if it isn't at full health, making it a nice offensive check. Prankster Encore users, such as Liepard and Volbeat, can switch in on a predicted Dragon Dance or Substitute and force it Whiscash out. Toxic Spikes reduces Whiscash's lifespan potential (or a word you prefer) considerably as it needs many setup turns to be a threat, so being poisoned can be fatal for Whiscash significantly reduces the time it has to sweep. Common users of this move include Roselia, Garbodor, and Scolipede.</p>

    <p>Whiscash's main problem is that (add comma) even after a boost, it lacks the power to OHKO or even 2HKO bulky Pokemon, especially if they resist Earthquake, meaning that even if it has managed to set up a Dragon Dance, many Pokemon, such as Musharna or and Mandibuzz, while not capable of switching in on Whiscash safely, can come in after a KO and beat Whiscash one-on-one. If you don't allow Whiscash to set up many Dragon Dances, you should do fine against it.</p>

    GP 2/2

    Also, I'm not QC but maybe change the set name to Dragon Dance since there's no Offensive Dragon Dance set or other Dragon Dance set outside of Additional Comments anymore.
    Kingler12345 likes this.
  21. Alonsoforever

    Alonsoforever

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    Ok, thanks a lot melvni, changes made.

    About the name of the set... What would QC prefer, Dragon Dance, or Substitute + Dragon Dance? I guess Dragon Dance is fine. This is done!
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2013
  22. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    Dragon Dance is fine. Uploading this

    Done
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2013

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