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Whiscash (Substitute + Dragon Dance) (GP 2/2)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by erisia, Feb 26, 2012.

  1. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    [​IMG]

    [SET]
    name: Substitute + Dragon Dance
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Dragon Dance
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Waterfall
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Anticipation
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 180 HP / 104 Atk / 224 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>While Whiscash has the potential to sweep teams quickly with an all-out offensive set, it also has the option of taking a slower route to sweeping by using a bulky Dragon Dance set, just like Altaria and Shelgon. Whiscash's excellent defensive typing is often criticized for its 4x weakness to Grass-type attacks, but it provides Whiscash with a plethora of resistances and an immunity to Electric-type attacks as well, both of which it can make use of thanks to its large HP stat and decent defenses. Additionally, Whiscash can make 101 HP Substitutes, which cannot be destroyed in a single hit by Seismic Toss, letting it set up on Pokemon such as Miltank, Lickilicky, and Hypno. Due to its good bulk, Whiscash's Substitutes will often also survive neutral Hidden Powers, uninvested Scalds, and other weak attacks. In addition, phazing moves such as Lickilicky's Dragon Tail and Throh's Circle Throw, in addition to Clear Smog, will not affect Whiscash while it's behind a Substitute, letting Whiscash hit them with two boosted Earthquakes before being forced out, which will either deal heavy damage or KO them outright. By using Substitute tactically against less offensive opponents, Whiscash is able to set up multiple Dragon Dances more easily, and thus has a greater chance of sweeping teams that cannot immediately threaten it. Once opposing Grass-type Pokemon are removed, stall teams will find it much harder to deal with this variant of Whiscash than the standard, as Substitute blocks both Toxic and phazing moves, their next-best options at removing it from play.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread for this set is more complicated than that of the standard, but justifiably so. 180 HP EVs give Whiscash an HP stat of 406, which not only allows it to produce 101 HP Substitutes, but also enables it to set up five Substitutes in a row from full health, taking Leftovers recovery into account. Meanwhile, 224 Speed EVs allow +1 Whiscash to outpace Jynx and Haunter and OHKO them before they can break its Substitute. The remainder are invested in Attack; combined with the use of an Adamant nature, this helps to ensure that Whiscash is not simply setup bait for other sweepers. If you do not think this is necessary, investing these EVs in Defense will further complement Whiscash's bulk and defensive typing, and will help to ensure that weak U-turns will not break its Substitutes. Speed EVs can also be shifted into Defense or Special Defense as desired, but this will make Whiscash easier to revenge kill, and will not let it use Substitute as successfully before boosting.</p>

    <p>Whiscash needs to run two attacks to have effective coverage within the tier, as unlike Altaria and Shelgon, both of its STAB attacks can be blocked with immunities and resistances. While Earthquake and Waterfall are the default options for their reliability and power, Stone Edge is also useful for taking down opponents such as Altaria while still maintaining good neutral coverage. Bounce is also an option in the last slot for hitting Grass- and Bug-types super effectively, but the charging turn is undesirable, and it lacks the power to break through bulky opponents such as Tangela. Anticipation is the best ability for this set, as it allows Whiscash to switch into opponents such as Magmortar and Eelektross, determine whether they are using Hidden Power Ice or Hidden Power Grass, and use Substitute or switch, respectively; the ability to eliminate the need for prediction in these situations is highly desirable. Furthermore, Substitute already blocks status effects, so the support provided by Hydration is not required as long as you don't switch Whiscash directly into Toxic or into faster users of the move. It's also inadvisable to use the Hydration + Rest combination with this set, as Whiscash does not have the coverage or power to sweep with a single STAB move, unlike its Dragon-type counterparts.</p>

    <p>Unfortunately, this set in particular requires a lot of team support to increase its chances of sweeping, and to prevent it from just being an annoyance. Firstly, Grass-type Pokemon absolutely must be removed before attempting a sweep, as they will take almost nothing from Whiscash's STAB attacks, especially as it lacks a Life Orb. Opponents such as Tangela and Leafeon can set up with Substitute and Swords Dance respectively, provide cleric or Wish support, or just go straight for the KO with their powerful STAB attacks. Magmortar and Swellow are highly appreciated for their ability to switch into Sleep Powder and OHKO any Grass-type Pokemon in their way; Vileplume is also useful in this respect as it can simultaneously absorb Toxic Spikes and prevent them from crippling Whiscash. Unaware Quagsire must also be dealt with, as it can set up with Curse while ignoring Whiscash's boosts; Grass-type Pokemon of your own such as Amoonguss and the aforementioned Vileplume can both force it out while still providing team support. Finally, Whiscash appreciates the benefits of all entry hazards, with Stealth Rock and Spikes making it easier to score direct KOs, and Toxic Spikes making it easier to deal with bulky opponents. Cacturne can set up Spikes and deal with Quagsire as well, while Torterra can do the same while providing Stealth Rock support instead.</p>

    While I'm here, I'd also like to vouch for the current Dragon Dance set to have its name changed to "Offensive Dragon Dance" when this is uploaded. This set should also be slotted in between the current Dragon Dance set and the tank, as no one seems to use the latter ;_;
  2. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    Looks good, I just have a few minor suggestions:

    [SET]
    • You only need 404 HP to have 101 HP Subs, so maybe drop the hp down 4 points and put them into attack?

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • Mention Dragon Tail along with Clear Smog as an example, it's actually more common than Clear Smog.

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • Mention Adaptability. I know Whiscash's only weakness is Grass, and it should be obvious what has a Grass-move or not, but the little information Anticipation gives you can be game-changing if you need to know whether a Magmortar has HP Grass or not or whether Arbok has Seed Bomb or not.

    Most of these are very minor, though. Good job, and I liked SubDD Whiscash the few matches I tested it in! :)
  3. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    I went for 405 because I thought it did something with Leftovers to let you Sub more times; upon testing I've actually found its the case for 406 HP instead.

    406 - 101 + 25 = 330
    330 - 101 + 25 = 254
    254 - 101 + 25 = 178
    178 - 101 + 25 = 102
    102 - 101 + 25 = 26

    If you're faster, this lets you make 5 Substitutes instead of four, letting you Sub-stall opponents who wall you but have been Toxic'd more effectively. If this is too niche then I'll drop it down to 404, but I'm sure I read somewhere that this was the general policy for Sub users above Base 101 HP...

    Other changes are fine.
  4. Ice-eyes

    Ice-eyes Simper Fi

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    The HP is fine. The speed EVs are a little weird though - shooting for Adamant Sawk is kind of pointless since it's nowhere to be found. As long as you get up past Swellow at +2, I think you're golden. Alternatively, I would seriously consider the merits of putting in a bit more speed so that you can get past Jynx / Haunter / Leafeon at +1.
  5. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    Okay, in that case the EV spread would be 180 HP / 104 Atk / 224 Spe Adamant. Updating.
  6. NatGeo

    NatGeo sun's coming up
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    150 Evs is enough to outspend Haunter and friends after a DD, but that's with a Jolly nature. I can't get how many Speed EVs it is with Adamant, but it may actually just be Jolly that can outspend after a boost. Definitely add that into AC since its a pretty important benchmark. I'm going go ahead ahead and give this a stamp since otherwise this skeleton looks golden.

    QC 1/3

    Edit - scratch that, I was looking at the rby analysis for haunter lol so I guess it would be quite a few more EVs, something on the order of around 200 by my guess.
  7. col49

    col49 'cuz I'm not too smart, ya know?
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    needs 212 evs for +/max base 95's, if that's the problem
  8. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    As stated in the analysis, 224 Spe EVs are required to outspeed Jynx at +1 with an Adamant nature. This is more efficient than using a Jolly nature and 148 EVs. I'm pretty sure this has already been stated on the analysis, so this shouldn't be an issue.

    Thanks for the check anyways. :)
  9. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken
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    Good stuff. Mention partners who can beat Quagsire, as well - ones who can beat both Quaggers and Tangela would be best, although I really can't think of anything right now (uhhh all I have in my head is X-Scissor Leafeon and Leavanny).

    QC APPROVED (2/3)
  10. Omicron

    Omicron
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    Leafeon is also a pain to deal with so mention it specifically, especially as it can most likely tank boosted Stone Edges.

    QC APPROVED (3/3)
  11. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    Alright, I've made those changes to the skeleton. Will write this up later on.
  12. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    Okay, this is now written up. Let's get this done quickly. :)
  13. sirndpt

    sirndpt too cool for a custom title
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    [​IMG]

    c/p (open)
    [SET]
    name: Substitute + Dragon Dance
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Dragon Dance
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Waterfall
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Anticipation
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 180 HP / 104 Atk / 224 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>While Whiscash has the potential to sweep teams quickly with an all-out offensive set, it also has the option of taking a slower route to sweeping by using a bulky Dragon Dance set, just like Altaria and Shelgon. Whiscash's excellent defensive typing is often criticized for its 4x weakness to Grass-type attacks, but it provides Whiscash with a plethora of resistances and an immunity to Electric-type attacks as well, both of which it can make use of thanks to its large HP stat and decent defenses. Additionally, Whiscash can make 101 HP Substitutes, which cannot be destroyed in a single hit by Seismic Toss, letting it set up on Pokemon such as Miltank, Lickilicky, and Hypno. Due to its good bulk, Whiscash's Substitutes will often also survive neutral Hidden Powers, uninvested Scalds, and other weak attacks. In addition, phazing moves such as Lickilicky's Dragon Tail and Throh's Circle Throw, in addition to Clear Smog, will not affect Whiscash while it's behind a Substitute, letting Whiscash hit them with two boosted Earthquakes before being forced out, which will either cripple them or KO them outright. By using Substitute tactically against less offensive opponents, Whiscash will be able to set up multiple Dragon Dances more easily, and thus has a greater chance of sweeping teams that cannot immediately threaten it. Once opposing Grass-type Pokemon are removed, stall teams will find it much harder to deal with this variant of Whiscash than the standard, as Substitute blocks both Toxic and phazing moves, their next-best options at removing it from play.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread for this set is more complicated than that of the standard, but justifiably so. 180 HP EVs give Whiscash a HP stat of 406, which not only allows it to produce 101 HP Substitutes, but also enables it to set up five Substitutes in a row from full health, taking Leftovers recovery into account. Meanwhile, 224 Speed EVs allow +1 Whiscash to outpace Jynx and Haunter and OHKO them before they can break its Substitute. The remainder are invested in Attack; combined with the use of an Adamant nature, this helps to ensure that Whiscash is not simply setup bait for other sweepers. If you do not think this is necessary, investing these EVs in Defense will further complement Whiscash's bulk and defensive typing, and will help to ensure that weak U-turns will not break its Substitutes. Speed EVs can also be shifted into Defense or Special Defense as desired, but this will make Whiscash easier to revenge kill, and will not let it use Substitute as successfully before boosting.</p>

    <p>Whiscash needs to run two attacks to have effective coverage within the tier, as unlike Altaria and Shelgon, both of its STAB attacks can be blocked with immunities and resistances. While Earthquake and Waterfall are the default options for their reliability and power, Stone Edge is also useful for taking down opponents such as Altaria while still maintaining good neutral coverage. Bounce is also an option in the last slot for hitting Grass- and Bug-types super effectively, but the charging turn is undesirable, and it lacks the power to break through seriously bulky opponents such as Tangela. Anticipation is the best ability for this set, as it allows Whiscash to switch into opponents such as Magmortar and Eelektross, determine whether they are using Hidden Power Ice or Hidden Power Grass, and use Substitute or switch respectively; the ability to eliminate the need for prediction in these situations is highly desirable. Furthermore, Substitute already blocks status effects, so the support provided by Hydration is not required as long as you don't switch Whiscash directly into Toxic, or into faster users of the move. It's also inadvisable to use the Hydration + Rest combination with this set, as Whiscash does not have the coverage or power to sweep with a single STAB move, unlike its Dragon-type counterparts.</p>

    <p>Unfortunately, this set in particular requires a lot of team support to increase its chances of sweeping, and to prevent it from just being an annoyance. Firstly, Grass-type Pokemon absolutely must be removed before attempting a sweep, as they will take almost nothing from Whiscash's STAB attacks, especially as it lacks a Life Orb. Opponents such as Tangela and Leafeon can set up with Substitute and Swords Dance respectively, provide cleric or Wish support, or just go straight for the kill with their powerful STAB attacks. Magmortar and Swellow are highly appreciated for their ability to switch into Sleep Powder and OHKO almost any Grass-type Pokemon in their way; Vileplume is also useful in this respect as it can simultaneously absorb Toxic Spikes and prevent them from crippling Whiscash. Unaware Quagsire must also be dealt with, as it can set up with Curse while ignoring Whiscash's boosts; Grass-type Pokemon of your own such as Amoonguss and the aforementioned Vileplume can both force it out while still providing team support. Finally, Whiscash appreciates the benefits of all entry hazards, with Stealth Rock and Spikes making it easier to score direct KOs, and Toxic Spikes making it easier to deal with bulky opponents. Cacturne can set up Spikes and deal with Quagsire as well, while Torterra can do the same while providing Stealth Rock support instead.</p>
  14. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    Thanks, check implemented.
  15. TrollFreak

    TrollFreak (╮°-°)╮┳━┳ (╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻
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    Gastrodon > Swampert > Whiscash > Stunfisk

    wut, its the chain of durp Pokemon, tho it works wonders in my Ruby playthough :3

    placeholder

    [SET]
    name: Substitute + Dragon Dance
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Dragon Dance
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Waterfall
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Anticipation
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 180 HP / 104 Atk / 224 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>While Whiscash has the potential to sweep teams quickly with an all-out offensive set, it also has the option of taking a slower route to sweeping by using a bulky Dragon Dance set, just like Altaria and Shelgon. Whiscash's excellent defensive typing is often criticized for its 4x weakness to Grass-type attacks, but it provides Whiscash with a plethora of resistances and an immunity to Electric-type attacks as well, both of which it can make use of thanks to its large HP stat and decent defenses. Additionally, Whiscash can make 101 HP Substitutes, which cannot be destroyed in a single hit by Seismic Toss, letting it set up on Pokemon such as Miltank, Lickilicky, and Hypno. Due to its good bulk, Whiscash's Substitutes will often also survive neutral Hidden Powers, uninvested Scalds, and other weak attacks. In addition, phazing moves such as Lickilicky's Dragon Tail and Throh's Circle Throw, in addition to Clear Smog, will not affect effect Whiscash while it's behind a Substitute, letting Whiscash hit them with two boosted Earthquakes before being forced out, which will either cripple them deal massive damage or KO them outright. (Cripple usually reffers to status, so I changed it) By using Substitute tactically against less offensive opponents, Whiscash will be able to set up multiple Dragon Dances more easily, and thus has a greater chance of sweeping teams that cannot immediately threaten it. Once opposing Grass-type Pokemon are removed, stall teams will find it much harder to deal with this variant of Whiscash than the standard, as Substitute blocks both Toxic and phazing moves, their next-best options at removing it from play.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread for this set is more complicated than that of the standard, but justifiably so. 180 HP EVs give Whiscash a HP stat of 406, which not only allows it to produce 101 HP Substitutes, but also enables it to set up five Substitutes in a row from full health, taking Leftovers recovery into account. Meanwhile, 224 Speed EVs allow +1 Whiscash to outpace Jynx and Haunter and OHKO them before they can break its Substitute. The remainder are invested in Attack; combined with the use of an Adamant nature, this helps to ensure that Whiscash is not simply setup bait for other sweepers. If you do not think this is necessary, investing these EVs in Defense will further complement Whiscash's bulk and defensive typing, and will help to ensure that weak U-turns will not break its Substitutes. Speed EVs can also be shifted into Defense or Special Defense as desired, but this will make Whiscash easier to revenge kill, and will not let it use Substitute as successfully before boosting.</p>

    <p>Whiscash needs to run two attacks to have effective coverage within the tier, as unlike Altaria and Shelgon, both of its STAB attacks can be blocked with immunities and resistances. While Earthquake and Waterfall are the default options for their reliability and power, Stone Edge is also useful for taking down opponents such as Altaria while still maintaining good neutral coverage. Bounce is also an option in the last slot for hitting Grass- and Bug-types super effectively, but the charging turn is undesirable, and it lacks the power to break through seriously bulky opponents such as Tangela. Anticipation is the best ability for this set, as it allows Whiscash to switch into opponents such as Magmortar and Eelektross, determine whether they are using Hidden Power Ice or Hidden Power Grass, and use Substitute or switch respectively; the ability to eliminate the need for prediction in these situations is highly desirable. Furthermore, Substitute already blocks status effects, so the support provided by Hydration is not required as long as you don't switch Whiscash directly into Toxic, or into faster users of the move. It's also inadvisable to use the Hydration + Rest combination with this set, as Whiscash does not have the coverage or power to sweep with a single STAB move, unlike its Dragon-type counterparts.</p>

    <p>Unfortunately, this set in particular requires a lot of team support to increase its chances of sweeping, and to prevent it from just being an annoyance. Firstly, Grass-type Pokemon absolutely must be removed before attempting a sweep, as they will take almost nothing from Whiscash's STAB attacks, especially as it lacks a Life Orb. Opponents such as Tangela and Leafeon can set up with Substitute and Swords Dance respectively, provide cleric or Wish support, or just go straight for the kill KO with their powerful STAB attacks. Magmortar and Swellow are highly appreciated for their ability to switch into Sleep Powder and OHKO almost any Grass-type Pokemon in their way; Vileplume is also useful in this respect as it can simultaneously absorb Toxic Spikes and prevent them from crippling Whiscash. (Both can KO Grass-types, there's no odd dual typing for Gass-types in NU, its usually Grass or Grass/Poison) Unaware Quagsire must also be dealt with, as it can set up with Curse while ignoring Whiscash's boosts; Grass-type Pokemon of your own such as Amoonguss and the aforementioned Vileplume can both force it out while still providing team support. Finally, Whiscash appreciates the benefits of all entry hazards, with Stealth Rock and Spikes making it easier to score direct KOs, and Toxic Spikes making it easier to deal with bulky opponents. Cacturne can set up Spikes and deal with Quagsire as well, while Torterra can do the same while providing Stealth Rock support instead.</p>
  16. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    I've implemented the changes, but i'm pretty sure "affect" is correct in "will not affect Whiscash". Will need another GP check before this is uploaded.
  17. Stalfos

    Stalfos
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    yeah leave this as affect

    a few extra minor nitpicks:

    changed for tense agreement

    otherwise TF's check is good; great writeup :)

    [​IMG]
    GP APPROVED 2/2
  18. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    Thanks, this is now finished then. :D
  19. Fatecrashers

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