Whiscash

Discussion in 'Dragonspiral Tower' started by Twins, Nov 25, 2010.

  1. Twins

    Twins

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2010
    Messages:
    113
    So I was looking for pokemon that get both Hydration and Dragon Dance, like Lapras, and to my surprise, found an odd little pokemon that fits the bill. Meet:

    Whiscash
    [​IMG]
    Water/Ground
    BST:
    HP- 110
    Att- 78
    Def- 73
    Sp. Att- 76
    Sp. Def- 71
    Spd- 60

    Abilities:
    Oblivious- Grants immunity to infatuation and Captivate.
    Anticipation- Alerts the Pokémon of certain dangerous moves.
    Hydration- Cures any status ailment that the Pokémon has at the end of each turn when it is raining.

    Thanks to LoveHurts for providing move information. Notable moves are bolded.

    Level up moves:
    Show Hide
    Start: Zen Headbutt
    Start: Tickle
    Start: Mud-Slap
    Start: Mud Sport
    Start: Water Sport
    Lvl 6: Mud Sport
    Lvl 6: Water Sport
    Lvl 10: Water Gun
    Lvl 14: Mud Bomb
    Lvl 18: Amnesia
    Lvl 22: Water Pulse
    Lvl 26: Magnitude
    Lvl 33: Rest
    Lvl 33: Snore
    Lvl 39: Aqua Tail
    Lvl 45: Earthquake
    Lvl 51: Future Sight
    Lvl 57: Fissure


    TM/HM Moves
    Show Hide

    TM06: Toxic
    TM07: Hail
    TM10: Hidden Power
    TM13: Ice Beam
    TM14: Blizzard
    TM15: Hyper Beam
    TM17: Protect
    TM18: Rain Dance
    TM21: Frustration
    TM26: Earthquake
    TM27: Return
    TM32: Double Team
    TM37: Sandstorm
    TM39: Rock Tomb
    TM42: Facade
    TM44: Rest
    TM45: Attract
    TM48: Cannon
    TM55: Boiling Water
    TM68: Giga Impact
    TM71: Stone Edge
    TM78: Smooth Over
    TM80: Rock Slide
    TM87: Swagger
    TM90: Substitute
    TM94: Rock Smash
    HM03: Surf
    HM04: Strength
    HM05: Waterfall
    HM06: Dive


    Egg Moves
    Show Hide
    Dragon Dance, Earth Power, Flail, Hydro Pump, Mud Shot, Muddy Water, Spark, Take Down, Thrash, Whirlpool



    Pros:
    • Hydration from the Dream World makes him immune to all status
    • With Rest and Hydration, it can heal to full HP and wake up instantly at the end of the turn
    • Excellent HP stat of 110
    • Gets Dragon Dance despite being a blue fish
    • Water/Ground is a really good defensive typing, resisting Poison, Rock, Steel and Fire, and is immune to Electric

    Cons:
    • Has mediocre defenses
    • Slow and a passable attack, although Dragon Dance helps to remedy them
    • 4x weak to grass, but it doesn't take too much from grass knot because it is light
    • Pretty useless outside of rain
    • Only being able to use 2 attacking moves seriously limits its coverage

    Why a fish that looks nothing like a dragon gets dragon dance is beyond me, I can assure you that Hydration+Rest is broken. You can easily get in a few Dragon Dances, then heal to full health, and sweep off a now high speed and attack stat.

    Sets:
    Invincible dragon fish
    Whiscash @ Leftovers/Life Orb
    Hydration
    252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant/Jolly
    - Dragon Dance
    - Rest
    - Earthquake/Stone Edge/Zen Headbutt/Spark
    - Waterfall
    Assuming you have Rain up, this set works similar to the Lapras set. You switch in on one of its resistances, then Dragon Dance. Now that you are faster than the opponent, you can Rest to 100% HP, and wake up thanks to Hydration immediately. Waterfall does really good damage to anything that doesn't resist it, and is there for STAB and to abuse the Rain. 80 BP doesn't seem like much, but when you factor in STAB and rain, it becomes a move that has 120 BPx 1.5 in the rain, and that coming off of 560 attack (assuming you got in 2 dragon dances, it even isn't that hard to get 4 dances) 1-2HKOs a majority of the game. But this is pokemon, and we have those meddlesome resistances. That's what your other move for. The obvious choice here is Earthquake, as it gets STAB and hits 5 types super effectively. However, then you can't really do anything to Dragon/Flying pokemon and Gyarados. Stone Edge is an option if you want to hit those pokemon super effectively, Zen Headbutt is a good move, and Spark is if you really hate Gyarados. Leftovers helps you survive, while Life Orb means you can do more damage. Your decision.

    Counters? Well, if you use Earthquake, there's Dragon/Flyers, Gyarados, and those pesky Grass types that kill Whiscash so easily. One of its problems in Gen IV was being burned, but Hydration solves that problem. Whiscash doesn't fear Grass Knot too much, as it is light and only takes 40 BP from it (after weakness 160). It also has trouble against bulky waters, but I suppose you can Dragon Dance until you can KO them easily. Remember, if it can't beat something, just stall with Hydration+Rest and Dragon dance.

    EDIT: Milotic can come in on a waterfall and dragon tail it out, but I'm not sure it could survive an Earthquake. About those pesky Grass types, he really hates 2 the most: Nattorei and Jaroda. Nattorei doesn't take much from both earthquake and waterfall, and I'm pretty sure Power Whip is a 1HKO. Jaroda can hit Whiscash so hard with Leaf Storm that it becomes part ghost type, and then sweep the rest of your water typed team, gaining +2 sp att every storm. You cannot counter both of these at the same time (stone edge for jaroda and earthquake for nattorei), so hopefully Whiscash has 6 dragon dances before meeting one of them.

    At first, Lapras seems to be a much better Dragon Dancer+ HydraRest user, because of Lapras' superior stats (every stat is equal or better than Whiscash's). However, Lapras has a pretty barren physical movepool, while Whiscash has a decent one. Lapras only gets Water, Ice, and Normal to work with, while Whiscash can surprise the opponent with moves like Spark (how does it get that again?). Also, Water/Ice is a far worse typing than Water/Ground, and Whiscash has only one type to be wary of instead of 4. Plus it resists the ever present stealth rock. I haven't used Whiscash on Pokemon Online yet, but I am confident that the set I provided are somewhat good, because of my experience with Dragon Dance+HydraRest Lapras.

    This is my first pokemon analysis, so don't judge me too harshly. Criticism and suggestions are welcome.
  2. LoveHurts

    LoveHurts

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2009
    Messages:
    20
    I've used both Lapras and Whiscash on PO, and I've had much better success with Whiscash at Dragon Dancing. Lapras' weakness to Stealth Rock and multiple weaknesses make it hard to bring in, and even once it's set-up it's walled by Burungeru and Nattorei.

    I ran Earthquake in the 3rd slot for Whiscash, and it worked out very well. Stone edge looks promising though, as Gyarados (as you mentioned) can come in and Dragon Tail you out.

    Great analysis, by the way.
  3. TSPhoenix

    TSPhoenix

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2007
    Messages:
    384
    A good idea but with all the heavy hitters around 110/73/71 is fairly average. Its coverage isn't the best, its secondary attack really doesn't hit that hard at all.

    IMO you are probably a lot better off with a bulky DD set that still hits hard but lets it get boosts up. It pairs a lot better with Hydration Rest.
  4. The.Lost.Hylian

    The.Lost.Hylian I'll have what you're drinking
    is a Researcher Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2004
    Messages:
    5,795
    The only Grass attacks you'll really worry about are Giga Drain and Jarooda's Leaf Storm. That stupid snake is such a dick. +2 boost with the 140 BP... Grass Knot isn't as common anymore because of Jarooda and the Giga Drain boost.
  5. Twins

    Twins

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2010
    Messages:
    113
    I was thinking of better EV spreads to take advantage of his decent bulk.

    Thanks for giving me a positive review of my analysis. Puns aside, if Lapras got a better physical movepool it would be OU for sure. Even Blissey has a good physical movepool, despite having 10 base attack, after all...
  6. Don Honchkrorleone

    Don Honchkrorleone

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2010
    Messages:
    686
    Whishcash isn't bad, but people always prefer Swampert, Gastrodon and Quagsire over him. Hydrastion DD is something that puts him apart them, and is actually good. Won't break the metagame, but makes him an option for walls in RD teams.
  7. LoveHurts

    LoveHurts

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2009
    Messages:
    20
    Typed up all of his moves. I wasn't sure how to format his egg moves, however.

    Leveling up:
    Show Hide
    Start: Zen Headbutt
    Start: Tickle
    Start: Mud-Slap
    Start: Mud Sport
    Start: Water Sport
    Lvl 6: Mud Sport
    Lvl 6: Water Sport
    Lvl 10: Water Gun
    Lvl 14: Mud Bomb
    Lvl 18: Amnesia
    Lvl 22: Water Pulse
    Lvl 26: Magnitude
    Lvl 33: Rest
    Lvl 33: Snore
    Lvl 39: Aqua Tail
    Lvl 45: Earthquake
    Lvl 51: Future Sight
    Lvl 57: Fissure


    By TM/HM
    Show Hide

    TM06: Toxic
    TM07: Hail
    TM10: Hidden Power
    TM13: Ice Beam
    TM14: Blizzard
    TM15: Hyper Beam
    TM17: Protect
    TM18: Rain Dance
    TM21: Frustration
    TM26: Earthquake
    TM27: Return
    TM32: Double Team
    TM37: Sandstorm
    TM39: Rock Tomb
    TM42: Facade
    TM44: Rest
    TM45: Attract
    TM48: Cannon
    TM55: Boiling Water
    TM68: Giga Impact
    TM71: Stone Edge
    TM78: Smooth Over
    TM80: Rock Slide
    TM87: Swagger
    TM90: Substitute
    TM94: Rock Smash
    HM03: Surf
    HM04: Strength
    HM05: Waterfall
    HM06: Dive


    Egg Moves
    Show Hide
    Dragon Dance, Earth Power, Flail, Hydro Pump, Mud Shot, Muddy Water, Spark, Take Down, Thrash, Whirlpool
  8. The Pokemon Pimp

    The Pokemon Pimp

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2009
    Messages:
    662
    Thanks for the info. Theoretically Zen Headbutt could be used to get better neutral coverage- only things like Shiftry resist both. That could be slashed in in place of Earthquake, at least.

    In rain dance, it could be cool. The only problem I see are things like Kabutops and Kingdra, which can accomplish similar roles with better movepools.
  9. Twins

    Twins

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2010
    Messages:
    113
    Added its moves, thanks to LoveHurts for the information. Just curious, but how do you get all the moves like that?

    Kingdra and Kabutops are perhaps better sweepers, but the key thing is that Whiscash gets Hydration, making it immune to status, and be able to recover to full health without any side effects. Zen Headbutt is a cool move. Spark is really unpredicatable, but the 65 BP doesn't kill anything besides Gyarados.
  10. LoveHurts

    LoveHurts

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2009
    Messages:
    20
    I found his Gen V moves on Bulbapedia.

    Status is a big problem for Kingdra and Kabutops, and a layer of Toxic Spikes (or even worse, two) hinders their sweep. Whiscash, with it's resistance to SR and immunity to Electric (which is a necessity on Rain Dance teams) it can come in and set-up a lot easier.

    Of course, Kingdra and Kabutops have their initial offensive power, speed, and better offensive typing, but that doesn't mean they totally outclass our adorable catfish.

    It's also freakin' adorable, which is always a plus.
  11. Arc Tech

    Arc Tech

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2009
    Messages:
    737
    He seems screwed coverage-wise with just two moves. Waterfall+ EQ is resisted by gyarados and grass types, and waterfall + anything else is resisted by nattorei who can ko back. Perhaps dropping waterfall and running edgequake might be more effective.

    Waterfall is only 20% more powerful than EQ in rain, and EQ is 25% more powerful if you opponent realizes what you're doing and switches in a weather changer (150% if it's ninetails).

    He seems best as an early sweeper used before the opponent loses their weather changer, since he doesn't lose his boosts out of rain, only a bit of power on one of his moves.
  12. Flareon

    Flareon

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2010
    Messages:
    448
    Whiscash gets DD, but flygon doesn't? Wth?

    Anyway, hydration finally gives our lovable catfish a useful ability, and a bloody good one at that. Whilst I don't think it'll be game changing, it's certainly gonna help him get some popularity.
  13. boyofrito

    boyofrito

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Messages:
    95
    I'm thinking something like this.
    Sets:

    Bulky Dragon Dance
    Whiscash @ Leftovers
    Anticipation
    252 HP / 252 SpDef / 4 Atk
    Adamant
    - Dragon Dance
    - Stone Edge
    - Earthquake/Aqua Tail/Toxic
    - Waterfall
  14. Twins

    Twins

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2010
    Messages:
    113
    More importantly, Flareon doesn't get Flare Blitz. Neither does Entei. Why Gamefreak hates Fire types with high attack stats I will never know.

    Back to Whiscash. After getting it on my team, I swept 5 teams in a row with it, and got to number 117 on the smogon standard rank :toast:. However, then I fought against 5 teams, 2 with Nattorei and 3 with Doryuuzu, and went back to 500 something :pirate:. Apparently my entire team can't touch Nattorei, and everything is too slow to face Doryuuzu :(.
  15. Axa

    Axa

    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    391
    Arcanine, Infernape, Blaziken, Rapidash...

    Whiscash has always been kinda ehh for me. As a bulky Ground-type that can boost it seems outclassed by Torterra, while as a bulky Water-type it just seems to fall flat compared to the slightly more offensive Feraligatr. Maybe I'm wrong, but is there anything significant about it that allows it to be more than just a niche with Dragon Dance over its other Water/Ground counterparts?
  16. LoveHurts

    LoveHurts

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2009
    Messages:
    20
    The other Water/Ground type pokemon aren't used as offensively, with Quagsire stopping set-up pokemon with Unaware, Gastrodon absorbing Water-type attacks, and Swampert setting up rocks and roaring away threats.

    That being said, Water/Ground only has one weakness, which is why it's very good defensively. Like I said before, it's typing and ability allows it to come in a lot easier and start boosting.
  17. BurningMan

    BurningMan fueled by beer
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2009
    Messages:
    1,274
    Yeah and stuff like nattorei, empoleon, celebi, sazandora, Starmie and the latis :P
    Really how could you come up with shiftry first xD

    on topic, well Hydrarest and DD is what sets him apart from the other Water/Ground types that would all be much better otherwise.
    Spark is IMO completly useless outside of Gyarados (and i think it wouldn`t even OHKO more defensive versions without 2 DDs). EQ is what he should use almost every time a Waterfall in the Rain and a Stabbed EQ hit resists often harder than neutral "coverage options" and he propably won`t play in the same league as the flying Dragons and gyara anyway so grass types are his only real problems (that and the fact that politoed is likely to be OU wich means no infinite rain :/ ).
  18. Rayquaza_

    Rayquaza_

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,122
    Just give up on DD and run Ice Beam instead. Nobody is letting this thing setup and with only 2 moves it won't be sweeping anytime soon.
  19. The Pokemon Pimp

    The Pokemon Pimp

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2009
    Messages:
    662

    Hahaha I was tired. I have no idea where I got Shiftry and not stuff like Nattorei...

    Agreed in that STAB EQ is too good to pass up, and Waterfall under the rain is still base 90 when resisted (180 factoring in STAB and rain). Not too shabby I suppose.
  20. LoveHurts

    LoveHurts

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2009
    Messages:
    20
    The thing is, Dragon Dance is absolutely necessary on Whiscash, with very low Atk and Spd stats. It's his only way to compete with sweepers like Kingdra and Feraligator, who otherwise outclass him with their own DD sets.
  21. Darkamber8828

    Darkamber8828

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Messages:
    2,938
    Waterfall
    Return
    Rest
    Dragon Dance

    Coverage resisted by 2 non-uber pokemon.

    Earthquake
    Stone Edge
    Rest
    Dragon Dance

    Coverage resisted by 5 non-uber pokemon, iirc. (Breloom, Birijon, Claydol, Bronzong, Torterra?)

    Conclusion: Whiscash would greatly benefit from 5 moveslots, but can make do with four.

    EDIT: Oops, forgot about Burungeru
  22. BurningMan

    BurningMan fueled by beer
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2009
    Messages:
    1,274
    its 3 Pokemon Empoleon, Nattorei and Burungeru (who is completly immune with Water Absorb).

    But i still think this is his best shot for "sweeping" in OU Water/Normal Coverage is Good and Return got a high Base Power.
  23. googlyeyesultra

    googlyeyesultra

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2010
    Messages:
    44
    Assuming by uber you mean resh/zek + last gen's ubers. . .
    Water/normal gets walled by empoleon, shedinja, nattorei, and burungeru. So four resists, and one of them completely immune to your entire moveset.
    Due to the wild popularity of both nattorei and burungeru (and together, a lot of the time), water/normal doesn't cut it at all for coverage.
    Since you're in rain for hydrarest anyways, waterfall is sort of an obvious choice. Spark lets you hit bulky waters but leaves you walled by grass/dragon and has low base power. Stone edge is walled by sort of a random scattering of stuff and has low accuracy. Return gets owned by nattorei/burungeru. I'd say earthquake is his best coverage option; it's still walled by grass and a lot of dragons but it offers fairly powerful stab and hits both nattorei and burungeru neutrally.
  24. Darkamber8828

    Darkamber8828

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Messages:
    2,938
    Facepalm

    I take it back, run Waterfall/Stone Edge. Only resisted by Nattorei, Empoleon, and Quaggy and Gastrodon, who you won't be seeing. Unless Quaggy's got Unaware. Then it won't resist Waterfall.

    And you won't be able to do jack shit against it anyway.
  25. SMZ

    SMZ

    Joined:
    May 14, 2007
    Messages:
    2,606
    Honestly this is my favorite Water/Ground nostalgic wise. Anyway, a bulky DD HydraRest seems a good set to make use of his bulk and hydration to attempt a 'sweep'.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)