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White Kyurem & Black Kyurem

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Death Phenomeno, Jun 17, 2012.

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  1. Death Phenomeno

    Death Phenomeno I'm polite so just for clarity, when I'm cross I
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Feb 20, 2006
    Approved by NixHex


    With only arond a week to go, these two are surely to twist things around. Will they be kicked out to Übers straight away? Will they be so underwhelming that they end up in PU? Let's see!

    The base stats estimation images:


    These pictures appear to show the same Kyurem with a Lax nature; of course, EV's and IV's are completely up to guess.

    The confirmed base stats:

    • White Kyurem: 125 120 90 170 100 95
    • Black Kyurem: 125 170 100 120 90 95
    Total: 700

    What we know:

    • Dragon Ice Typing.
    • N's Reshiram/Zekrom merges with Kyurem at some point in the story.
    • They do not require an item to stay transformed.
    • White Kyurem gets Ice Burn and Fusion Flare.
    • Black Kyurem gets Freeze Shock and Fusion Bolt.
      • How to get the moves is still a mystery. They replace Glaciate and Scary Face by level-up, respectively.
    • HP stays at 125.
    • Speed stays at 95.
    • White Kyurem's Defence stays at 90, while Special Defence rises by 10. The opposite is true for Black Kyurem.
    • Offences are higher by 20 points than the ones of Reshiram and Zekrom, respectively.
    • They get their respective Mold Breaker clone.

    Move tutor compatibility:

    According to this, all 3 Kyurems get the same tutors, and they are:

    • Signal Beam
    • Iron Head
    • Earth Power
    • Icy Wind
    • Zen Headbutt
    • Dragon Pulse
    • Hyper Voice
    • Snore
    • Roost
    • Endeavor
    • Outrage
    • Sleep Talk

    What we know, but lack photographic evidence of:

    • Ice Burn/Freeze Shock replaces Glaciate, according to B1/W1 level-up moves.
    • White Kyurem gets Fusion Flare.
    • Black Kyurem gets Fusion Bolt.
      • They replace Scary Face, according to B1/W1 level-up moves.
    • A key item, which is apparently called Gene Wedge, can merge/separate Kyurem with the other two after capture.
      • Implications of this are currently up to guess.
    • Captured at level 70 post-game (after battling it at level 55 earlier).

    What we don't know (yet):

    • Any other move(s) added to their movepool.
    • Whatever Glaciate has to do with the signature moves, if anything.
    • Exact requirement(s) for transformation.
      • Do they require to know their signature moves to stay transformed?
      • Are Reshiram & Zekrom required in the party?
      • What happens to Reshiram & Zekrom after the merge?
    • Can we get "regular" Kyurem with any of the benefits? In other words, will the special moves work in a similar way to Rotom's?
    • If they will be subject to version exclusivity.
    • What will happen in a battle against B1/W1 (if allowed at all).
    • What happened to the whole "Overdrive" thing?

    So what do you think? Overwhelming? Underwhelming? Will "regular" Kyurem be completely forgotten?
  2. Zacchaeus

    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Dec 5, 2009
    So it's Kyurem with boosted offenses but without a Speed buff along with a 2-turn signature move. Sounds like it will still suck
  3. Dr Ciel

    Dr Ciel Banned deucer.

    Jun 16, 2012
    They should just give each of them a base 120 power Signature Move
  4. Katakiri

    Katakiri Listen, Brendan...
    is a Pokemon Researcher

    Jun 11, 2010
    White Kyurem's Special Attacking movepool may be too much for OU (Specs Draco Meteor from Base 150+ Sp.Atk sounds nasty anyway) but it's typing may hold it back from being bumped to Ubers, but Black Kyurem needs a way to hit Steel-types Physically otherwise, it's poor Physical movepool even with Fusion Bolt, it's poor typing, and unfortunate Speed-tier will likely get the best of it. It doesn't get Earthquake so at this point, it's Superpower tutor or bust for Black Kyurem.

    White Kyurem will surely take over Sub Kyurem's role on Hail Teams while Black Kyurem will likely find it's niche in OU as a Choice User being superior in power to Choice Haxorus.
    Ice Burn will probably find a spot on White's Sub set in Additional Option due to the power & Burn rate but won't see much use other than that.
  5. Dr Ciel

    Dr Ciel Banned deucer.

    Jun 16, 2012
    That pretty much sums up my thoughts.
  6. Bossness


    Aug 18, 2011
    It might sound absurd to some but I think that Black Kyurem and White Kyurem will learn Zekrom's and Reshiram's Level-up moves. Why? To differentiate them. I mean can you really expect them to learn Kyurem's moves? Plus Kyurem did not have a level 100 move. So this means that they will learn Bolt Strike/Blue Flare at level 100.
  7. Lucario_Guy


    Apr 9, 2009
    I would posit, Anikrahman1995, that BK&WK will learn their respective 140 BP Ice moves at level 100 as opposed to BS/BF (and yes, it's possible, because every in-game battle we've seen thus far with BK/WK has been an IR Flat battle). The most significant foil to my hypothesis could possibly be the necessity of said Ice moves at some point in the games' plot, but we'll have to wait to see.
  8. Ace Emerald

    Ace Emerald Waiting for VGC 2017
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Jan 8, 2010
    Wait, what? I'm all for a testing period in OU. After all, we tested Deo-A. But I don't think Ice typing (which is great offensively) is that much of a handicap that a Pokemon with 150 offense and great defense won't be broken. What outside of fat blobs and Ferrothorn can stop these things? I'm sure we could handle them in OU, but I'm sure we could also handle Rayquaza.
  9. Sprocket

    Sprocket P(n) = 1 - (1 - P(1))^n

    Jul 10, 2010
    So for reference, a level 50 Kyurem with 31 IVs, 0 EVs (252 EVs in parenthesis) and a neutral nature has the following stats in BW1:

    HP: 200 (232)
    Attack: 150 (182)
    Defense: 110 (142)
    Special Attack: 150 (182)
    Special Defense: 110 (142)
    Speed: 115 (147)

    So we are not looking at an EVd out Black or White Kyurem, or even one with 31 IVs. That said, it looks like White Kyurem will be +SpA, +SpD, -Atk, -Def, while Black Kyurem will be +Atk +Def, -SpA, -SpD, when compared to regular Kyurem. HP and Speed appear to stay the same.
  10. Sun Sol

    Sun Sol

    Oct 31, 2005
    I think BK/WK will have the moves upon capture. Almost every "big legend" comes with their signature moves when caught unless they either don't have one (Weather trio), or didn't have one at the time (Mewtwo). Also note that various media compares IB/FS as being stronger than R/Zs Fusion attacks, as opposed to BF/BS. The Ice attacks are getting advertized pre-release like the Fusion attacks, where's BF/BS were not. BF/BS were basically "rewards" for getting R/Z to Lv100.

    It's possible that the Kyurems get the respective Fusion attack at Lv100, but it wouldn't be as fitting since the Fusion attacks are about R/Z hitting each other to boost the other one's attack. WK is resistant to Electric, but BK takes neutral from Fire, ruining the balance. Since IB/FS are being compared to the Fusion attacks in marketing, as well as canonically being corrupted versions of BF/BS, I don't see Kyurem getting any of R/Z's signature moves.

    I can see Kyurem getting the level up moveset of R/Z based on the respective form, allowing access to the Fire and Electric attacks. I wouldn't be surprised if the TM compatibility remained the same however though.

    Interesting to note, a trailer for M15 depicts Kyurem to be using Flamethrower. Normal Kyurem could get access to multiple Fire and Electric attacks. Don't be surprised if turning into Black Kyurem removes any Fire moves, and vise versa however. GF clearly does not want Reshiram using Electric attacks, and Zekrom using Fire attacks (HP doesn't count in this regard), so the same might follow with BK and WK.

    If BK/WK get IB/FS upon capture, and they don't get any of R/Z's moves, what would become of their Lv100 attack? Could there be some kind of unlock that either removes the charge up turns of IB/FS, or grants invulnerably like Shadow Force? Perhaps an item, say the God Stone, can be obtained after getting to Lv100 that does those respective things (or perhaps act the same way as the DPPt trio's orbs, maybe even both)? Or GF could just troll us and give us nothing.

    Judging from theeir stats in the screen shot, assuming no EVs, they probably have the following BSTs:

    HP: 125
    Atk: 170/125
    Def: 100/90
    SAtt: 125/170
    SDef: 90/100
    Spe: 90

    HP does not change between formes. Kyu's had 130 in Atk stats, R/Z had 150 in their higher one. 170 seems logical. R/Z had 120 in the lower Atk stat; 125 makes sense (fits well with 125 HP). Defenses seem low; so 100 and 90 are reasonable. Speed is probably going to drop, since GF never lets the original forme be completely inferior, not to mention R/Z only had 90.

    Even if Black and White Kyurem miss out on movepool and removal of charge up, a Draco Meteor and Outrage coming off of what appears to be 170 in their offensive attacks is nothing to laugh at.
    Even if BK/WK might fall short in terms of moveset
  11. Ketsuban


    Oct 9, 2011
    I really do hope that Teravolt/Turboblaze remove charge-up turns for Sky Attack clones. There's only one instance that I can find of a box legendary not being able to use its signature move purely because of how bad the move is, and that's Dialga's Roar of Time; it'll be lame if we get another member of that club.


    Mar 27, 2011
    I think it will be very interesting to see if these guys manage to make it to Uber. It's the old stats vs. movepool vs. typing equation at play again.

    Typing sucks, SR, Fighting (Keldo and Terrakion), and Dragon weak, but without an Ice weakness and with an electric resistance which is OK... but the cons outweigh the pros here. Don't get confused, sometimes I forget that they're both still Dragon/Ice.

    Stats: Look beastly. 95 speed gets outrun by the musketeers and most Close Combaters, Salamence, Landorus, and even Haxorus, but is still faster than the base 90 crew. Attack and Sp.Attack look huge.

    Movepool: If it's on par with Kyerum, that kind of sucks. The charge-up signature moves are useless competitively (but arguably better then cool-down moves like Hyper Beam... yay...). Also, it's going to need Fusion Bolt/Flare to get some good reliable type coverage. Black Kyurem would love a good physical Ice STAB and Fusion Bolt to be useful, White Kyurem has DMeteor, but could use some more help aside from Focus Blast and Hidden Power.

    As it is, that's 2 or 1.5 /3 against Kyurem being popular... but you honestly never know...
  13. SuperHydreigon1996


    May 27, 2011
    There was a bigger picture of that picture that was comparing the new Kyurem' stats to Reshiram and Zekrom. I have the full picture right here! I'll show you.

    Now for discussion of their stats. If Reshiram doesn't have a +Sp.A raising nature and Zekrom doesn't have a Attack raising nature(It looks like they don't) then we can assume that Black Kyurem and White Kyurem's attacking stats are well over Base 150. Unfortunately, we don't know IVs and EVs, so all we can really do is estimate their base stats. From what I can see, it looks like Black Kyurem and White Kyurem could have somewhere between Base 160-180 in Attack and Special Attack, respectively. What do you guys think?
  14. doughboy

    doughboy backhand slap ready
    is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Sep 4, 2011
    160-180 attack stats? Oh I don't think those would be ubered... An SR weakness isn't as big of a hinderence as we thought look at Dnite, Volc, and Ho-oh. If CB Haxrous can go through Skarmory with Outrage what will this do. This thing can have as much physical bulk as Tangrowth!

    Seriously what cover legendary HASN'T been Uber
  15. Bribery


    Mar 28, 2009
    I think Black Kyurem would work well as a mixed attacker/wall breaker on a Hail team. It has near perfect neutral coverage as Ice/Dragon/Electric is only resisted by Magnezone. Something like Bolt Strike/Outrage/Blizzard/(Draco Meteor, Focus Blast or Volt Switch if it can learn it) with a Life Orb and EV'd to outspeed +speed Base 90s could be effective.

    White Kyurem would probably be most effective with Choice Specs.
  16. Ithilanor


    Jun 9, 2010
    Suicune, from Crystal. </pedantic>
  17. UltiMario


    Aug 11, 2009
    My Reverse engineering:

    Kyurem Black: 125/165/90/120/90/90 BST 680
    Kyurem White: 125/120/90/165/90/90 BST 680

    Not 100% accurate, but it's going to be pretty damn close.
  18. Pride Of Sinnoh

    Pride Of Sinnoh

    Jun 16, 2012
    If their offensive stats are over 160, I see them going Uber easily. Slaking would be Uber if it were`nt for Truant, and these guys will hit harder. Even if they were OU, everybody would need to run Scizor or Terrakion to revenge kill, because there is no way you could send anything in to absorb a hit. They should easily 2HKO everything.
  19. Lucario_Guy


    Apr 9, 2009
    ^ Scizor and Terrakion are already run by everybody, and their mothers. Not to mention Keldeo will soon be in initial high usage upon release, spamming Choice Specs Secret Sword like no tomorrow.
  20. IcyMan28


    Sep 18, 2008
    Yeah if these guys end up with 150+ in their main offense (which seems highly likely), I don't really see them staying OU. Ice-typing is not Slow Start or Truant, it just means they have a Stealth Rock weak and great offensive STAB. It's not like Haxorus, either, who is one sided. Running Ice Beam for Skarmory is viable on BKyurem, and WKyurem seems set to get Flamethrower.

    The testing period should be pretty interesting, but I'm thinking the main relevance of these forms will be what normal Kyurem ends up getting from them.
  21. Sprocket

    Sprocket P(n) = 1 - (1 - P(1))^n

    Jul 10, 2010
    So that begs the question. Would Kyurem, Black Kyurem, and White Kyurem be tiered independent of each other?
  22. pharaohcalvin


    Apr 6, 2009
    Different stat spreads would beg yes.
  23. voodoo pimp

    voodoo pimp Apply directly to the forehead
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Oct 12, 2010
    Shaymin's formes have always been in different tiers, and the Rotom-A variants were tiered independently once they got their own typings. I don't see why this would be different.
  24. Purimpopoie


    Apr 19, 2009
    Ooh! I can answer this one!

    "Overdrive" is just what they call it when the engines are on. It's cosmetic in Black and White.

    That's right. In Black and White. Reshiram and Zekrom both have "Overdrive" as well, and it's just when they have highlights on their pictures (Red for Reshiram, Blue for Zekrom).

    So yeah. It does nothing.
  25. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

    Mar 2, 2011
    If these do turn out to be absolutely ridiculous, what is the current policy on quick banning? Just wondering, but from what ive heard on irc chatter its a few weeks of testing before any sort of council vote. Im kinda curious on how this exactly would work, if it even happens at all.
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