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Winter Never Comes - Hail and it's Abusers

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by Elegy96, Dec 16, 2012.

  1. Elegy96

    Elegy96

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2011
    Messages:
    83
    As of late, Snover has been unbanned from NU, which has led to a new dominating presence in the metagame. I haven't seen any topics made on the subject, so here's one.

    The Snowman

    [​IMG]
    Snover
    Snover is a vital part of any Hail team due to his unique ability Snow Warning, which summons permanent Hail. For offensive teams, this allows pokemon to spam a 100% Accurate Blizzard, whereas for defensive teams it gives residual damage, making stall more viable.
    However, Snover isn't just a deadweight after setting up Hail. Base 62 attacking stats aren't THAT awful, and with good Grass/Ice STAB this could potentially do some damage with Blizzard, Giga Drain, and even priority in Ice Shard. With Eviolite Snover becomes a decent enough defensive piviot, even with his awful typing. Some good support moves in Leech Seed, Light Screen and Toxic help his cause a little.


    Offensive Hail

    [​IMG]
    Rotom-F has established itself as one of this metagame's best Choice Scarf users. Which great stats all around the board (except HP) and a movepool as wide as the Pacific Ocean, he's an automatic addition to most Hail teams. Great Dual STAB in Electric and Ice (Thunderbolt/Voltswitch and Blizzard) and a handy support movepool including Pain Split, Thunder Wave, and Trick allow him to serve as a potent revenge killer. Trick in particular helps him screw up many walls.

    [​IMG]
    Until Gen 5 and the arrival of Kyurem and his forms, Glaceon was renowned for having the strongest Blizzard in the game. He returns to blast huge holes in the NU tier. Equipped with a Choice Specs very few pokemon can survive his onslaught. A just-about big enough movepool of Shadow Ball and Hidden Power gives him decent offensive coverage to complement his huge power. Although his bulk is far from exceptional, it's decent enough to survive unboosted attacks. Support moves like Wish, Baton Pass and Barrier are an option, too.

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
    Vanilluxe has been the butt of many jokes since his inception in 2010, however he is better than one might expect. After an Autotomize boost he outspeeds pretty much every notable threat in the tier. His offensive movepool has something to be desired - Blizzard, Ice Beam, Flash Cannon and Hidden Power isn't amazing - but it's decent. 110 Base special attack is nothing to be scoffed at, either.


    Defensive Hail

    [​IMG]
    Walrein, when in Hail, is possibly the best staller in the game. Ice Body and Leftovers let him heal 1/8th of his health every turn, while sapping his opponents' with Hail damage and Toxic. Great 110/90/90 bulk lets him tank hits all day long (just watch out for strong Fighting attacks), and base 95 special attack makes him no slouch offensively either. Support options in Roar, Encore and Aqua Ring can make Walrein a versatile threat to watch out for and consider when teambuilding.

    [​IMG]
    The "NU legendary" of Gen 1, Articuno descends into the tier to support his team mates. His fantastic special bulk, as well as reliable recovery in Roost let him stall foes out all day long. He has two powerful STAB attacks in Blizzard and Hurricane to utilise, as well as supportive options in Toxic, Roar and Sky Drop. Just watch out for the dreaded Stealth Rocks!

    [​IMG]
    Ah, Regice. Even before the rise of Hail, Regice was quite a popular special tank. With unparalleled 80/100/200 defenses he can take nearly all special attackers in the tier on one-on-one and force them out with excellent BoltBeam coverage. In Hail he can make use of a 100% accurate Blizzard, which hurts coming off a base 100 special attack. When he is released in the Dreamworld, he will gain the excellent ability Ice Body, allowing him to gain Double Leftovers recovery.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    While many see Dewgong as an inferior Walrein, he does have a few niches over his cousin. Access to Perish Song, as well as a wider Physical movepool help his cause. He can also run Hydration in the rain as part of a Dual-Weather team.


    Non-Ice Pokemon

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    Anti-Hail


    ---

    Pokemon descriptions to come soon. Please message me if you have more suggestions, or are willing to write summaries for pokemon. Hope this helps! :)
  2. Nyara

    Nyara

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2012
    Messages:
    287
    Stall Articuno prefers Rain Dance over Hail, because it will help him more to spam 100% accurate Hurricane, with it's high chance of confussion, Blizzard by other hand can make Offensives Sets of Articuno more viable, because he'll don't get anything very good stalling with Blizzard, with it's slim chance of freeze. Thus, Defensive Articuno doesn't make very good synergy with Snover, but it does to ofensive sets (where the residual damage of the hail helps to archive more K.O's, when Stall Articuno will deplete the PP a lot before than the residual damage of Hail will make a difference).

    Random things with Blizzard also loves Hail, so, the Hail on this tier is better for ofensive teams than stall (Wallrain is maybe an exception, he's the best staller of the world under the hail).

    btw, Snover should have always a Focus Sash, he's just unnable to take any neutral or super efective hit, even with eviolite, and he can even be OHKO with strong resisted hits, so, Focus Sash should be always the best option, because it will allow him to use at least 1 support move on the match or makes an extra chance to make the Hail comes. Of course, Focus Sash means help of a Rapid Spinner or to back up the team with some Taunt users, but that's almost a need on any Hail team, because otherwise, Stealth Rock will destroy the whole team.

    Anti Hail by other hand is just... any Water or Fire type who can use Rain Dance/Sunny Day, Snover is so easy to defeat and check that makes it anything but hard to counter. All the Defensive Hail partners will suffer alot or just being unnable to stall, while the offensive ones will have to use the extremnly unnacurate Blizzard, making any sweep pretty unviable without a lot of luck, also, whatever Pokémon with any fire attack under Sunny Day can destroy them, too (and the Sun is not even needed against Snover, but if he have Focus Sash, you could prefer to use Multi-Hits attacks on him, or substitute on him's face).

    Should be noticed that hail is not a good friend of Focus Sash users; because the residual damage. It helps a lot on offensive teams to bypass Sturdy/Focus Sash, but it also limits your support options, too.

    Anyway, an suggestion for Snover set.

    [​IMG]
    Offensive Snover (Choice Scarf)
    EV's: 252 Attack - 252 Speed - 4 Special Defense
    Nature: Hasty

    - Wood Hammer
    - Blizzard/Icy Wind
    - Leech Seed/GrassWhistle
    - Safeguard

    This's maybe the more decent option for any not Focus Sash variant (thus, he'll don't need with desperation the Rapid Spin/Taunt support). With Choice Scarf and Hasty nature he'll reach to 294 of speed, allowing it to outspeed any Pokémon with 80 Speed base with positive nature, and to outspeed almost anything without major investiment on speed, this will help Snover to being able to do something on the battlefield, and also to do something if he's taunted, or make him able to break some substitutes.

    With Wood Hammer and 252 EV's on attack, he can attempt to OHKO Pokémon with weakness to grass, specially those with double weakness like Golem (the residual damage will end the job with this one), and make enough damage to make any Pokémon who doesn't resist grass to be easily revenge killed.

    Blizzard can be of help where Wood Hammer is double resisted (for example, against Butterfree), or if you're trying to on desesperation to get a freeze (but the change is slim, making it gimnicky), but if you're not having problems with the combinations who double resist Wood Hammer or with the recoil nature of Wood Hammer, you can also use Icy Wind to support the team, this can force a switch or two, or make any Pokémon really easy to being revenge killed.

    Leech Seed if you think your opponent will try to stall you, and it also gives a easy switch-in to a partner, but if you like to take risks, GrassWhistle does the job better, but the horrible accuracy makes it somewhat unreliable.

    And Safeguard can be of great help to your team, the opponent used Toxic Spikes? You can switch-in easy with Safeguard, the some goes against any status, actually. How it works? Some walls doesn't have attacks and they just use Toxic as a damage surce, then they will poison Snover... but, hey! Snover have Choice Scarf and can outspeed almost any wall, and Safeguard before! Now Snover is free of status, and you're most probably forcing a switch, making for Snover partners a clean switch.
  3. Shovel

    Shovel

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2012
    Messages:
    118
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] :D?​

    Castform still won't will always be great. But I can imagine Glaceon will be on almost every hail team spamming Choice specs Blizzards. I don't think Dewgong will be used, though, especially with Walrein being there. It is faster, but I don't like that merit as an excuse.

    Why not add Kadabra to the non-Ice type Pokemon? He has Magic Guard, same as Duosion. And he is considerably fast compared to the rest of the nu pokemon, where he can either clean up after Blizzards were spammed, or take things out so Blizzard can be spammed.

    That being said, Steel types would still be a problem (Mawil usage should go up. That would be fun), so Emboar or Sawk, as you've already put, should be on most teams. If not them, maybe defensive Throh for the defensive hail teams.

    @Nyara, I don't think offensive Snover is the way to go. It gets decent defenses with Eviolite, has access to Leech Seed and Giga Drain, and doesnt have the worst typing in the world. That being said, it can be great on offensive and defensive Hail teams, whittling down opponents with Leech Seed and Hail damage, and possibly a Blizzard/Giga Drain here and there, allowing for easier ohkos after the prior whittling. And this is especialy good on defensive teams to force switches. You said it wasn't too good with eviolite, but I believe it's very viable.

    Snover @ Eviolite
    Trait: Snow Warning
    EVs: 248 HP / 160 SDef / 100 Def (or an ev spread of 248 hp/ 252 SpD/ 8 SpA with a Calm nature)
    Bold Nature
    - Leech Seed
    - Substitute/ Grasswhistle
    - Protect
    - Blizzard/Giga Drain

    Basically accomplishes what I just said. Can easily come in on Alomomola : p

    Neverwinternights. Ill post more in depth later, it's too early to think right now. Add Kadabra though.


    Edit: If Hail becomes a major thing, which it might, it would mean that Emboar and Sawk + Ice Types will be a lot more popular. So, Lampent is an interesting idea, but still can't do much.
  4. Sweet Jesus

    Sweet Jesus Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2012
    Messages:
    516
    I discussed with WhiteDMist and he made a good point about one of the greatest anti-hail pokemon being pinsir.

    One cool thing about pinsir, is he has access to close combat and a stab that wil take down duosion without a choice band. Add this to his great moxie ability and a sub lefties +3 attacks set is nearly sure to tear every hail tam apart.

    Most people think of sawk and emboar as good hail counters, but their respective choice sets have problems dealing with carracosta, garbodor and duosion (the 2 first should be added to the op). You could think your opponent has to predict emboar properly, but nearly every ice mon in a hail team has either protect or a combination of sub and a better speed than emboar to choice lock him before switching.

    Pinsir does not have that problem, he deals with both duosion and carracosta without choice locking himself and only struggles with garbodor who is also hurt by hail, can't heal and will probably fear earthquake that you could run over sub.

    sub + 3 attacks moxie pinsir works well in the rest of the meta too so it's not just there for hail.

    (btw elegy96, the np thread was the place to discuss the hail meta, but I guess we can have another thread for that purpose only)
  5. Nyara

    Nyara

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2012
    Messages:
    287
    @Shovel: Well, my set of Snover wasn't really "offensive", it's just he can't just take hits, 60/50/60, he had even worst deffensive stats/type than Beautifly, and Beautifly is the biggest definition of paper thin bulk. Of course, Eviolite can, on theory, make him able to take at least 1 resisted hit, as long that hit is not being boosted by anything and it doesn't be a powerful attack at all, and... water attacks, and that is. Eviolite Snover is only better than any other Snover on... well... making problems to Mono-Water-Type attackers, and that's excesive strange, even Alomomola tends to run a second type to attack (even Alomomola with Toxic will win the 1vs1, unless the opponent is stupid). But yeah, he'll fall against everything on the tier who is not mono-water-type attacker, or even against them, two powerful Hydro Pumps still K.O Eviolite Snover. And of course, Stealth Rock/Spikes/Toxic Spikes will destroy the already minimal bulky it has.

    The Choice-Scarf set AT LEAST can do something against some things, like anything weak to grass to start off, and anything (incluiding Alomomola) who needs of status to make damage or being of help to the team, and anything who needs 2 or more turns to make something, and make a good place to revenge kill someone, too, because Snover is unnable to hit a K.O otherwise. Generaly, on the 99% of times, Snover will just bring hail and being K.O soon or after, but with Choice Scarf he CAN do something before him's fall, because he's able to outspeed a good portion of the tier in that way, and it also clean the path to better switchs of it's useful partners. The Focus Sash variant is almost the same, but it can do more damage with Blizzard (better for revenge killing) and sometimes bring the hail for third time on mid game, but in exchange, it needs a seriously Rapid Spin/Taunt support (while the Eviolite variant depends totally of it, too).

    And over all things, it prevents Snover to being transformed into Taunt Bait and/or to give free turns to the opponent to set up, he can destroy the substitute of sweepers with max investment Wood Hammer, and can use Leech Seed when they set up (or when they belive the can taunt it, and he outspeed them), and in the worst scenary, Snover will just K.O itself with the recoil, giving you a free switch.

    Anyway, Hail is not a big threat, it's very easy to deal with it, but it does help to some Pokémon to have real competitive oportunities.
  6. FLCL

    FLCL
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Salon Maidenis a Past SPL Winner

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    Emboar is hands-down the best hail counter in the tier, being able to destroy any Ice-type with either Superpower or Flare Blitz. Duosion, the most common Fighting-type resister on hail teams, cannot switch into a Choice Band boosted Flare Blitz or the Substitute set. On top of that, Emboar has decent bulk and resists Blizzard, allowing it to switch directly into Ice-types if needed.

    Sawk and Absol are both very dangerous to hail as well. The former can spam Close Combat and sweep easily once Duosion is removed, while the latter is in the same boat as Pinsir since Duosion cannot safely switch into boosted Superpowers due to fear of Night Slash. On top of that, many hail teams lack the defensive backing to handle powerful Sucker Punches.

    Defensively, Regice and Piloswine are both very good counters to hail. They resist Blizzard and common coverage moves such as Thunderbolt, although Piloswine does not fare very well against Lapras or Walrein. Regice even carries Rest to beat Toxic stallers, meaning it has nothing to fear from hail sweepers.
  7. JirachiCelebiMew

    JirachiCelebiMew

    Joined:
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    I have one question, and it has been bugging me for quite some time now. I have been using Agent Dell's Vanilluxe set (Autotomize), and it's pretty good. The problem is that the opportunities to set up are rare, most teams now carry Regice (Can't be 3HKO'ed with HP Fighting, iirc), and is very frail. He's dead weight against some teams, and I usually end up sac'ing him. So the question is.....Who to choose for Hail set-up sweeper? Autotomize Vanilluxe or Rock Polish Regice? Vanilluxe has Ice Body, while it isn't released for Regice, which means that LO recoil will make him die easily. He does have more overall bulk than Vanilluxe, making setting up very easy. Regice also gets great coverage, with BoltBeam (or in this case, BoltZzard). So? Who is the best set-up sweeper for Hail between these two?
  8. Nyara

    Nyara

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2012
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    Articuno does better the work, STAB Flying and Ice is a good combination, and Articuno just need to set up a Substitute to wreak havoc under the hail. Yeah, not the more stronger Blizzard of the world, but it's hard to break the substitute of an Articuno, so, he'll usually have two-three or even four free turns to just add a lot of damage to whatever thing. Add it the ocassional confusion rate of Hurricane, possible freezes from Blizzard, PP depleting, and roost to stay healthy, and Articuno will just doing a lot of damage for long, long time.

    Set up with an Ice-Type Pokémon is really hard, anyway, it's better to just going with Choice Items or Bulky Sweeping (like Articuno), or better, if you're really wanting the Ice-Type sweep, then make it by the means of Baton Pass, over there are a lot of excelent Baton Passers who loves hail, too.

    I employ Masquerain as master baton passer, he use Intimidate to criple physical attackers, and can come in glory against any Figthing attack, too, set up Quiver Dance, destroy something with Hydro Pump or Bug Buzz (or Air Slash if you're really needing the Figthing Checker), or just Baton Pass it to Articuno.
  9. Louiss

    Louiss

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2012
    Messages:
    21
    i wouldnt use regice as a RP user, since it still lacks the speed to outspeed common threats like Cinccino, Sawk and obviously more threats that have a base speed stat above 100. Vanilluxe though, when granted an Autotomize can outspeed Scarf Sawk with little effort. this is the set that im currently using.

    [​IMG]
    Vanilluxe @ Petaya Berry
    Trait: Ice Body
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 112 Spd / 132 HP / 12 Def
    Modest Nature
    - Autotomize
    - Blizzard
    - Flash Cannon / HP Ground
    - Substitute

    first thing you see; not the best coverage and weird EV spread. the speed EV's are there to outspeed Scarf Sawk at +2, which leaves the rest of the EV's for the rest of the stats, these have gone into SpA (duh) and into HP for some better overall bulk. this set has a speed of 222, which outspeeds scarf sawk by 0.5, with at least one Autotomize up. but this does require you to have that Autotomize up, otherwise you're obviously fucked. if the Sawk has some prior damage (which it most likely will be having since hail) Vanilluxe can outspeed and OHKO him with the Blizzard, if boosted a guaranteed, and if not boosted yet it will require Sawk to have some prior damage. but enough of the Sawk talk now lol like i said earlier you can tell from the moveset that it's definitely not the best coverage, so this Vanilluxe really appreciates Sawk support itself (whoops here he is again) to work at least decent, as Sawk can rip through opposing hail teams and can OHKO SR setters right of the bat. (also he appreciates T-Wave support as it can help him to set up his boost and subs sometimes) HP Ground can be used for coverage. i think that the goal of the set is kinda obvious, just trying to get him something that cant do jack to him, then set up and proceed and try to sweep, obviously you first need to get rid of the opposing pokemon that Vanilluxe cant harm.

    Edit: there also are some common bulky psychic types called a musharna and duosion, but yeah.. this Vanilluxe won't be KO'ing them anytime soon. this set doesnt really have anything as an answer to those two, so skuntank might also be a good idea to counter those two.

    although it could be hard to build a team around Vanilluxe, he might be a nice addition if you're considering to play offensive hail.
  10. C AllStar

    C AllStar

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    136
    Well, Regice reaches 436 speed with timid nature after a RP boost, which outspeeds the entire unboosted tier sans ninjask and base 80 scarfers such as braviary.

    Comparing Regice's (80/50/100/100/200/50) and Vanilluxe's (71/95/85/110/95/79) stats, it is clearly that Regice has much better bulk on both sides, while Vanilluxe has a much speed (and attack lol) and slightly higher special attack. It seems that Regice is better on the tank role while Vanilluxe is a better sweeper. However, Regice's movepool is much better than Vanilluxe. With thunderbolt and focus blast rounding up its coverage, it is much harder for ice resists switch in to take its blizzards. While Vanilluxe has only flash cannon and hidden power rounding up its stab, making things like samurott and emboar easier to switch in to force it out depending on its hidden power type. Besides, Regice's greater bulk helps it set up RP several times during the battle, while Vanilluxe can only set up once as a late game sweeper due to its lower bulk. With its bulk, Regice can even choose not to waste one turn to set up and wreck havoc while taking hits comfortably.

    In the other hand, Vanilluxe's higher base speed gives it an advantage on outspeeding scarfed sawk and rotom-a. While the rotom appliances are non-issue, outspeeding sawk and to a lesser extent, pinsir, is a huge advatantage it holds over Regice. Regice's inability to defeat sawk even after a RP burdens the fighting-weak hail teams. Vanilluxe can even afford to run modest nature to boost the power of its moves, making its blizzard much more powerful than timid Regice's.

    Basically, on the sweeper role, Regice and Vanilluxe both have their advantages. It depends on your teams strengths and weaknesses. Personally, I prefer RP Regice for its surprise value and better utility. But this is just personally choice.

    By the way, Vanilluxe DO NOT have weaknesses to bulky psychics. Look at the calcs:

    252+ SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Musharna: 261-308 (60.27 - 71.13%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 240 HP / 252 SpD Musharna: 204-242 (47.11 - 55.88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Duosion: 251-296 (75.14 - 88.62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Duosion: 179-212 (53.59 - 63.47%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Duosion Psychic vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Vanilluxe: 165-195 (56.7 - 67.01%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Musharna Psychic vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Vanilluxe: 220-261 (75.6 - 89.69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Besides, musharna's moonlight is weakened to 25% healing in hail. Coupled with hail residual damage, musharna is unable to even PP stall Vanilluxe.
  11. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

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    Since nobody has posted this yet, this would have to be the best Snover set by far:

    [​IMG]
    Snover @ Eviolite
    Trait: Snow Warning
    EVs: 248 HP / 40 Def / 220 SpD
    Calm Nature
    - Leech Seed
    - Protect
    - Toxic
    - Blizzard / Giga Drain

    Even though Snover's base stats are bad, this set makes the most of its niche in NU--the ability to defeat Gorebyss, Ludicolo, and special Samurott. Leech Seed and Protect alongside the residual damage of Hail allows Snover to stall Pokemon such as Regice, Piloswine, Samurott, Gorebyss, Alomomola and even common switch ins such as Emboar. Leech Seed gives Snover some recovery while dishing out the most reliable damage it can at the same time. Toxic allows Snover to continue to stall Pokemon out alongside Leech Seed and lets it beat Ludicolo even if it attempts to cancel out the Hail with Rain Dance. Giga Drain is slashed with Blizzard because while this set is capable of stopping normal Gorebyss, it struggles against SubSmash sets that can avoid Toxic and Leech Seed and set up on Blizzard. Snover's EVs are focused to help it on its primarily role of beating special Water-type Pokemon and while Snover's stats are low, with full investment and Eviolite it can become a decent check to Pokemon such as Rotom-S even if it's locked into Air Slash--Hell it can even live Life Orb Gardevoir's Focus Blast! The 40 Defense EVs give Snover more resilience against Samurott Megahorn as it is more likely to live a Timid Samurott's Hydro Pump followed up by a Megahorn.
  12. Tyrano

    Tyrano

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2010
    Messages:
    86
    Two more for offensive hail:

    [​IMG]
    Sneasel @ Life Orb
    Trait: Inner Focus
    EVs: 252 atk / 4 Def / 252 speed
    Jolly Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Ice Punch
    - Low Kick
    - Bite

    One of the best lategame sweepers in hail, sky high speed and decent attack, but after a boost can be very powerful. The problem is find the time to use swords dance, because sneasel is sooo fragile, and life orb doesn't help in surviving. That's why I say sneasel is good in late game, once you have beated rival scarfers, there will be almost no poke faster than him, so you can start hitting or if you are lucky, boosting and hitting.

    [​IMG]
    Kadabra @ Life Orb
    Trait: Magic Guard
    EVs: 252 spAtk / 4 ps / 252 speed
    Timid Nature
    - Psychic
    - Shadow Ball
    - Hidden power Fight
    - Energy ball

    Another great lategame sweeper, also inmune to hail. But what matters here is that 339 points in both spAtk and speed, which turns kadabra in one of the most fasters and strongers pokes in NU. So wheres the trick? kadabra barely resists special move, and there is almost no way he can resist a physical move, so the best option is to use it as revenge killer, but remember to be careful with priority moves (skuntank is its more obvious counter).

    And for anti-hail pokes, I can only think in rain abusers (with Rain Dance) like ludicolo or swanna, or sun abusers like exeggutor.
  13. JirachiCelebiMew

    JirachiCelebiMew

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2012
    Messages:
    450
    Ok, well, for anti-hail:

    [​IMG]

    Gothorita @ Eviolite
    Trait: Shadow Tag
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 SAtk
    Calm Nature
    - Calm Mind
    - Psychic
    - Rest
    - Rain Dance

    Gothorita puts a full stop to Hail teams, no doubt on this. I have succesfully tested this set with much success. You can just switch into Snover, use a couple of CM's (and continue if there is no Dark-types), get Rain Dance up and kill Snover. That will hamper most of the opponent's team, as Blizzard will end up missing more time than it hits, Hail stall would get much harder to pull off, and that's about it. Even outside of Hail, Gothorita can make a great Special Wall, can proceed to eliminate annoying walls such as Alomomola and Amoonguss (Beware, if you try to beat them, the game will become really long), and take care of Fighting-types that plague this metagame, such as Sawk and Gurdurr (CB Sawk does a chunk, though).

    Best partner to this set is Ludicolo. He can benefit from Rain, and take care of some of Goth's checks. Bug-types and Specially Defensive Skuntank can do a lot to this core, so wisely predicting Skuntank switch-ins are required.
  14. Brave Bird spam

    Brave Bird spam

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2012
    Messages:
    54
    I've been using shelgon as an emboar counter and its been working out great. It can also wish pass to ice type partners since ice types resist shelgon's weakness to opposing ice moves, helping them with SR damage. It can also wall a lot of other physical threats besides emboar, like samurott, golurk, sawk, cinccino, and braviary, to name a few. This is the set I'm using:
    [​IMG]
    Shelgon@Eviolite
    Ability: Rock head
    EVs: 240 HP, 252 Defense, 16 Attack
    Impish Nature
    - Wish
    - Protect
    - Dragon Claw
    - Roar/ Toxic

    Wish and protect are the cornerstones of the set, supporting both Shelgon and its team mates. Dragon Claw gives it a decentish offensive presence so it isn't complete taunt bait. Roar eliminates the threat of BU braviary while Toxic cripples other walls. 240 HP EVs gives it a leftovers number and makes its HP an odd number to minimize stealth rock damage. Max defense for obvious reasons, and the rest in attack(or special defense). The only issue is that with no leftovers shelgon is susceptible to hail(showdown for some reason thinks overcoat is illegal =( I guess wish forces you to use rock head), but wish usually compensates for this.

    I think this would fit well into the non-ice category.

    Glalie is another pokemon that works well on hail teams. It has 80/ 80/ 80 defenses, simalar to those of eelektross, boosted even further with eviolite, making it a great addition to defensive hail teams, especially since ice body gives it Pseudo leftovers recovery. It is also arguably the best spiker for hail teams, and can use its STAB Blizzard to leave large dents in offensive pokemon without a resistance. Two glalie sets stand out to me: The suicide lead for offensive teams and the more defensive eviolite version for defensive teams.
    [​IMG]
    Glalie @ Focus sash or I guess Eviolite could work decently on this set too but at that point you're probably better off using a defensive variant
    Ability: Ice body
    EVs: 252 Attack, 252 speed, 4 HP
    Jolly Nature
    - Spikes
    - Earthquake/ Explosion/ Toxic
    - Taunt
    - Ice Shard/ Explosion/ Toxic

    Spikes is really all this set needs as it will usually just spam that and taunt. Earthquake hits probopass/ bastiodon leads, Ice shard revenge kills later things later game if glalie is somehow still alive, Explosion brings in a team mate for free and does decent damage, toxic nails walls like alomomola. Max speed with a jolly nature is for outspeeding and taunting opposing leads, max attack is because the set doesn't really need to emphasize bulk because of the sash. Blizzard is a bad idea because usually glalie leads, so hail isn't up.

    And the defensive set:

    [​IMG]
    Glalie@Eviolite
    Ability: Ice body
    EVs: 240 HP, 252 Special defense, special attack
    Calm Nature
    - Spikes
    - Taunt
    - Blizzard
    - Super fang/ Body Slam/ Toxic/ Protect

    This set focuses on bulk and setting spikes/ walling throughout the entire game. A specially defensive spread is used because Glalie is weak to mainly physical attacking types. Just like with shelgon, 240 HP minimizes SR and maximizes Ice body recovery, max special defense, the rest in whatever. Spikes and taunt are two of glalie's main perks, blizzard dents opposing sweepers, and super fang combined with taunt allows glalie to act as a stallbreaker of sorts. Body slam with a sassy nature or toxic can be used for status, and protect is generally useful, though super fang is generally the best option.

    Glalie seems like a good candidate for defensive hail, though the suicide lead could be classified as offensive since it supports offensive team mates.

    Beartic might fit into the offensive hail category, though I haven't used it enough to know whether or not its and good.

    Another interesting option that I haven't tested is abusing weather ball on a non-ice type sweeper to get an ice type coverage move. Drifblim with an ice gem and unburden seems like the best candidate because ice coverage lets it break through pokemon like golem more easily and most other weather ball users are either not available in NU, already have blizzard, or are just plain terrible(lol castform).

    I think flying types in general like swellow and braviary could be in the non-ice section because they break down opposing fighting types. Floatzel or Samurott also might fit into this category because they can take on fire types that plague ice types and grass types that hamper them(well floatzel at least) are dispatched by ice type team mates.

    EDIT: Torkoal and armaldo might also deserve mention because of rapid spin, torkoal in particular because it can take down steel types that resist ice.
  15. JirachiCelebiMew

    JirachiCelebiMew

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    Glalie is a final evolution, so it doesn't get to utilize Eviolite..
  16. Brave Bird spam

    Brave Bird spam

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    Oh yeah I forgot that glalie and froslass both evolve from snorunt, froslass doesn't evolve from glalie...yeah. So I've been using eviolite glalie for laddering all this time... wow I fell stupid. Defensive glalie with spikes still isn't half bad though
  17. ThePROlificHipster

    ThePROlificHipster

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    Any other Glaceon besides Defensive Glaceon is terrible. After stealth rocks, it can easily be OHKO with any SE move.
  18. Shuckleking87

    Shuckleking87 "Assault vest makes everything better" AV Seaking, BT
    is a Tiering Contributor

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    Um, with 65/110/95 bulk, alot of faster sweepers would die for this type of bulk. Yes, Glaceon wouldn't want to take supereffective hits, yet most pokes wouldn't in general. Also, with the highest SpA stat in Nu coupled with a scarf, most pokes wouldn't like to take a stab boosted blizzard anyway. Also, with ice body, it will be recovering a little hp every turn, and while it isn't that much, it may be the difference between an ohko. Just making that type a claim without any calcs though is unjustified.
  19. ThePROlificHipster

    ThePROlificHipster

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    cinccino comes to mind and can completely wreck it.

    BTW, I've been experimenting with this type of Walrein.

    Walrein @ Leftovers
    Trait: Ice Body
    EVs: 252 HP/4 Def/252 SpD
    Careful Nature
    ~ Substitute
    ~ Curse
    ~ Avalanche
    ~ Earthquake
  20. JirachiCelebiMew

    JirachiCelebiMew

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    Of course Cinccino wrecks it...It wrecks any Ice-type. Glaceon isn't made to go Defensive, it's more seen offensive. I use Specs, and I see many people use SubProtect. While Glaceon doesn't have stellar Defenses, I know it can live a Brave Bird from Scarf Braviary, while having 96% chances to live it's Superpower. That's pretty good. I never liked Scarf though. I never missed the extra Speed with Specs.
  21. ThePROlificHipster

    ThePROlificHipster

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    I might as well post my Hail team since it's been successful on showdown (couple of points away from NU ladder. I've been trying to perfect my OU hail team)

    Snover @ Eviolite
    EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 SpD
    Bold Nature
    ~ Blizzard
    ~ Leech Seed
    ~ Substitute
    ~ Protect

    Still testing
    Walrein/Glaceon @ Leftovers
    Trait: Ice Body
    EVs: 252 HP/4W(252G) Def/252W(4G) SpD
    Careful/Bold Nature
    ~ Avalanche/Blizzard
    ~ Earthquake/Shadow Ball
    ~ Substitute/Wish
    ~ Curse/Protect

    Still looking for right rapid spinner

    Rotom-F @ Choice Scarf
    EVs: 4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe
    Modest Nature
    ~ Blizzard
    ~ Volt Switch
    ~ Hidden Power Flying (can change)
    ~ Trick

    Swellow @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Guts
    EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    ~ Brave Bird
    ~ Return
    ~ U-Turn
    ~ Quick Attack

    Kadabra @ Life Orb
    Trait: Magic Guard
    EVs: 4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    ~ Psychic
    ~ Shadow Ball
    ~ Hidden Power Fighting
    ~ Calm Mind
  22. JirachiCelebiMew

    JirachiCelebiMew

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    I always said that Tentacool was a great Rapid Spinner in Hail, maybe he could work.
  23. ThePROlificHipster

    ThePROlificHipster

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    Poor HP, no recovery plus Hail damage limits its usefulness.
  24. FLCL

    FLCL
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Salon Maidenis a Past SPL Winner

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    tentacool is actually a great addition to defensive hail teams for its ability to rapid spin, set up stealth rocks, and defeat pokemon such as special emboar or ludicolo, which are annoyances to defensive hail teams. it should be used as a utility pokemon rather than a dedicated wall; it can find many chances to set up hazards or spin against specially oriented pokemon due to its massive special bulk.
  25. ThePROlificHipster

    ThePROlificHipster

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    it would only be annoying if you don't run a flying type Pokemon; something the NU tier has a plethora of and can out speed those two pokemon you mentioned.

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