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Winter's Guardians - Peaked #25 on PS

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by jpw234, Feb 17, 2013.

  1. jpw234

    jpw234 Catastrophic Event Specialist

    Feb 13, 2013
    Winter's Guardians

    An OU RMT


    Hi guys, this is jpw234 with an OU RMT for you. I haven't been around too much and would like to get a bit more involved with the Smogon community. As I see it, there's three ways to sort of become more relevant, in descending order of importance:
    1. Contribute well to the forums
    2. Win
    3. Innovate
    Hopefully with this post, I'm doing all three! I've been laddering with this team off-and-on over the last week under the alt tonyg88 on Pokemon Showdown, and achieved a pretty respectable rating of 1996 (just missed 2000), good for #25 on the ladder. I think this is good, but I also know it could be better, so I'm hoping you guys can help me out.
    However, in addition to simply making my team better I also aim to show that the BW2 metagame has a lot more room for variety in teambuilding than I think many give it credit for. I think a lot of people are locked into the idea that weather balance, weather offense, and Deo-D HO are broadly the only team archetypes that are viable in OU, based on the existence of Drizzle and Drought and the generational power creep. I humbly submit that this is by no means the case, and while offense is certainly good and has a lot of cool toys to play with, a solidly constructed stall team is just as viable as ever.
    Useless whining below:
    Show Hide
    Another thing I've noticed on the RMT forum is that posts from well-known battlers (Tobes, Lavos Spawn, etc.) tend to get a lot of attention, while those from unknown posters tend to get brushed off. Basically, there's a higher standard these posters have to live up to, and they're assumed to be scrubs unless their team is pretty awesome. I'm aware that not only am I completely unknown, but I'm also using a strategy that gets scoffed at by many OU players as being gimmicky or out-of-date. I respectfully ask that you not brush this team aside and give it a fair chance - perhaps take it for a test run. While I'm not the best battler it has gotten very high on the ladder and I firmly believe that this has the potential to be just as good as any other team out there.

    First Look
    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Team Philosophy
    The GOAL of the team is to tank the opposition's attacks while whittling down their HP utilizing (in decreasing order of importance) toxic damage, hail, and entry hazards. The MOST DIRECT METHOD of doing this is by setting up Walrein to do its job, but that is by no means necessary and probably only features in about 40-50% of my wins. For reference if you don't know what I'm talking about: the original Stallrein post. This is from 4th gen, but while the threats have changed, the basic idea of the set has not.
    Just to give you a lens into my thought process while battling with this team, here's a basic checklist that occurs at the team preview screen before pretty much any battle. Most important questions first.

    1. Do they have any pokemon which I only have one counter/check to?
    This is necessary in order to determine what pokemon on my team I have to keep around, and constrains and shapes the risks or choices I'll take during the battle. For example, if there's a Keldeo on their team, I probably won't want Latias taking all that many hits from other pokemon. Similarly if I see a Jirachi, I probably want Gliscor around.

    2. What's the pokemon their strategy most relies on, and how can I neutralize it?
    For example, a typical rain stall team with a FerroCent core might be most reliant on Jellicent, to ensure that hazards stay on my side of the field. So I might be willing to take a couple of extra risks to, say, get a Toxic off on Jellicent. Other common "key pokemon" are weather starters, Deo-D, hazard setters, etc.

    3. Is this team Walrein-weak, and if so, where are my setup opportunities?
    This takes some experience with Walrein, but it's not uncommon to see a team that is obviously fairly susceptible to a Walrein "sweep", either right off the bat, or after one or two pokemon have been weakened/removed. If this is the case, I need to identify who Walrein can set up on. Prime targets include offensive pokemon like Gyarados, Mamoswine, Landorus-T, Dragonite and Salamence, or defensive pokemon like Chansey/Blissey, Ferrothorn or Rotom-W. Baiting out these pokemon will be useful in inducing QQ and ragequits.

    The Team
    Abomasnow (M) @ Expert Belt
    Trait: Snow Warning
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 Atk / 112 SAtk / 144 Spd
    Lonely Nature
    - Wood Hammer
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Ice Shard
    - Earthquake

    So obviously, any hail team needs to have Abomasnow in order to get the hail going. This set is easily the most useful Abomasnow has ever been for me, which is saying a lot, considering that his stats are anything but spectacular and it's very easy for him to become Ninetales-like deadweight. This particular set utilizes his good offensive coverage to win the weather war and surprise typical counters. As far as the weather war goes, Wood Hammer OHKOs pretty much every standard Tyranitar or Politoed set, and Abomasnow outspeeds all defensive versions of those pokemon. Earthquake also substantially damages Ninetales - I believe it OHKOs most versions after Stealth Rock. Hidden Power Fire 2HKOs Ferrothorn and Skarmory while OHKOing Scizor. By the way, guys, Abomasnow outspeeds Scizor - use Bullet Punch if you don't want to die. Finally Ice Shard is a great move in general, OHKOing Salamence and offensive Dragonites after multiscale, and finishing off weakened threats like Latios, the genies, Gengar and Alakazam.
    Despite being the only way to keep hail up, Abomasnow often stays exposed for a long time. This is because my team really is not all that reliant on hail - in fact, outside Walrein, the other four pokemon rather prefer their leftovers recovery. Keeping hail up is useful in some battles and less useful in others, and the way that I play Abomasnow is very dependent on the matchup I'm facing. All in all, this set's versatility and power makes it very useful, and he's racked up multiple KOs in many battles that I've been in.

    Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature
    - Aromatherapy
    - Softboiled
    - Toxic
    - Seismic Toss

    Next up is the pink blob that doesn't die, Blissey. Blissey's role on the team is to sponge special attacks, spread toxic, and ensure that my pokemon remain status-free for as long as possible. And she performs this job impeccably well. The good thing about Blissey is that you pretty much know what you're going to get in any given battle with very little variation. Seismic Toss will always do 100 damage, Aromatherapy will always heal my burnt Abomasnow, etc. Very few special sweepers out there can combat Blissey without a boost - Keldeo, Specs Thundurus-T, and perhaps Sheer Force Landorus are the only ones which are always dangers to 1 or 2HKO - and the ones that can generally are reliant on Focus Miss, which is never a good thing to be reliant on.
    Blissey is played fairly conservatively - switch in, Softboiled if I'm ever in a hint of trouble, Toxic whenever it's possible and Seismic Toss whenever it isn't. A surprising number of teams are pretty much unable to break through Blissey when something like Terrakion is gone, and Blissey has several times faced down as many as four pokemon without batting an eye. Definitely a critical component to this team.

    Forretress @ Leftovers
    Trait: Overcoat
    EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 Atk
    Relaxed Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Rapid Spin
    - Stealth Rock
    - Spikes
    - Gyro Ball

    Unsurprisingly, it's difficult to find a good picture of Forretress. Who would want to draw Forretress, it sucks. Yes, Forretress sucks and I hate it with a passion. I wish that I didn't have to use it and it fails miserably at the worst possible times. And yet, here he is. Despite my irrational and unfounded hatred of the pokemon (which stems from the fact that none of my offensive teams could ever stop it from setting up fifteen layers of hazards with impunity), he generally does what is necessary for my team - spins. Really, anything else is just a bonus. Stealth Rock and Spikes are both here because they don't really fit anywhere else, and since "momentum" isn't even in this team's vocabulary Volt Switch doesn't really fit. Gyro Ball is useful to 2HKO Gengar and hurt a bunch of other physical threats that Forretress can handle if necessary - Terrakion, Breloom, Mamoswine, and physical dragons, to name a few.
    I say "if necessary" because I try to avoid exposing Forretress to all that much danger in most battles. Abomasnow and Walrein are vulnerable to every entry hazard and take 25% from Stealth Rock, making Rapid Spinning a very important task. Generally, Forretress ducks in, spins, and ducks out, setting up SR here and there when he gets the opportunity. In all honesty, despite my hatred he's relatively solid and gets the job done most of the time.
    A quick note - I use Overcoat over Sturdy on Forretress, which obviously would be terrible on almost any team, however, considering that hail is usually the weather when I'm battling, it's better. Forretress usually switches into Stealth Rock and while in sand/sun/rain his leftovers would heal him back to 100%, hail negates leftovers recovery and would make sturdy pretty useless in just about every instance. It's also nice because I technically beat opposing Forretress who lack Volt Switch (because my Rapid Spin damage sticks around while theirs is negated by Leftovers), so I generally come out with a layer of hazards down when that situation happens.

    Latias (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 198 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Calm Mind
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Recover
    - Hidden Power Fire

    This slot has been occupied by many pokemon as the team has evolved, but I've finally settled on a mono-attacking CM Latias to fill the spot. Latias tanks hits from both sides of the spectrum and hits back reasonably hard, while always maintaining the threat of a CM-boosted sweep. Thus, Latias provides a little bit of offensive pressure on an otherwise mostly defensive team. While Gliscor is a dedicated physical wall and Blissey is a dedicated special wall, Latias is more of a utility wall that is useful in a lot of different situations. Most notably, Latias provides my counter to Keldeo, which is otherwise annoying to deal with, and also Venusaur. It also helps check Breloom, Terrakion, the genies, Alakazam, Infernape and more. Against stall teams, Latias can provide a "win condition" unless they carry something like CM Jirachi or Perish Song. Overall, Latias is a very useful pokemon to patch up random weaknesses of the team.
    Latias is often used as a slightly inferior counter to some pokemon when Gliscor or Blissey need to be kept for specific threats - for example, I'd generally use Gliscor to take a CC from Terrakion. But, if my opponent also has Jirachi and I'm trying to keep Gliscor safe, I might use Latias instead. It also enjoys boosting up on special attackers like Starmie, some versions of Gengar, and Thundurus.
    I tend to wonder about the EV spread...does Latias really need max speed? Sometimes I think that some extra defense could be helpful, but I'll defer to a more experienced rater who could help me out here.
    As per Electrolyte's rate, Substitute has been changed to HP Fire on Latias. This makes it slightly weaker against stall, but helps a lot in beating a bunch of major threats to my team - nailing Ferrothorn, Jirachi, Scizor, Lucario, Weavile and Breloom for a bunch of damage. The EVs were also changed to make it slightly bulkier - I miss out on outspeeding the musketeers, but I'm not really staying in on them anyway except Keldeo which can't touch me. The only major thing that I now fail to outspeed is Choice Specs/LO Latios, which was a speed tie in any case and is better handled by Abomasnow's Ice Shard or Blissey.

    Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 244 HP / 44 Def / 220 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Toxic
    - Roost
    - Taunt

    Gliscor is my dedicated physical wall, Blissey's counterpart. It can take hits from pretty much any physical attacker without breaking a sweat, Toxic them, and watch them die. This is a very defensive Gliscor set, which I think is necessary given the needs of the team. Earthquake obviously provides a useful and generic STAB attack that OHKOs Heatran, hurts Tyranitar, whacks Jirachi and other steels, etc. Gliscor is my second pokemon with Toxic, which he spread whenever possible in order to rack up damage. Roost is necessary to be able to take repeated attacks from heavy-hitters and be ready to go throughout the entirety of the game. Finally, Taunt is a useful move which I don't have anywhere else and which shuts down pokemon like Skarmory. I suppose I could run Ice Fang here? I haven't really tested it out, but it seems like Taunt is a good thing to have somewhere on a team.
    Gliscor comes in whenever it is necessary to take a physical hit. Terrakion, Lucario, CBTar, Scizor, etc. It's pretty good at tanking these attacks and removing annoying pokemon from the game. Not much to say here, a very very solid pokemon which is useful on pretty much any stall team.
    The EVs have been changed to outspeed both Lucario and Toxicroak, who otherwise pose large threats to the team with Ice Punch. Despite losing some defensive prowess this is a necessary tradeoff. However, if Jellicent is eventually placed in the team, this change will probably be undone to retain some more physical bulk.

    Well, that's usually all people see when facing this pokemon.

    Walrein @ Leftovers
    Trait: Ice Body
    EVs: 232 HP / 252 Def / 24 SDef
    Bold Nature
    - Protect
    - Substitute
    - Toxic
    - Blizzard

    The demon of the ice, the bringer of pain, the cause of many migraines across the Pokemon Showdown server - the mighty Stallrein. Now many of you reading this are probably dubious that Walrein is still effective in this metagame, which is, admittedly, very offensive. I am here to tell you than Walrein is still able to frustrate a huge number of teams and can find many opportunities to set up.
    For the uninitiated - with hail up, because of his ability Ice Body and Leftovers, Walrein regains 12.5% of its health per turn. So, it can Substitute (-25%), regain 12.5%, and then Protect, regaining another 12.5%. Then as you break the sub it Substitutes again, creating a theoretically 32-turn Sub-Protect cycle while your pokemon dies to hail, toxic or Life Orb damage. Assuming the weather war is won (which is the only time I'd try to do this), there are very few counters to this strategy - Bullet Seed, Taunt, Perish Song, and a choice few others which are enumerated elsewhere.
    Suffice it to say, if Walrein can survive a hit with at least 25% of its health left, then you're probably going to have a bad time. "But jpw234", you say, "it's got bad defensive typing and merely average defensive stats. Where could it possibly find the opportunity to set up?"
    ALL OVER the current OU meta, as you'll see below.
    Show Hide
    The following is an inexhaustive list of calculations from popular OU pokemon which can't do more than the 75% necessary to stop Walrein from wreaking havoc. Assuming Stealth Rock is in play, the magic number becomes 62.5% (because even though SR removes 25%, I can usually protect the next turn to regain 12.5%). These are taken off of Honkalculator, and for each pokemon I've provided only the attack which does the most damage, so you should presume that the other attacks on the set are similarly ineffective. Particularly useful ones are bolded.
    Salamence (OU MixMence) Draco Meteor 64.2 - 75.65%
    Tornadus (OU Hurricane [Life Orb]) Hurricane 63.24 - 74.46%
    Landorus-T (OU Rock Polish) Stone Edge 62.76 - 73.74%
    Tyranitar (OU Choice Scarf) Stone Edge 61.57 - 73.03%
    Hydreigon (OU Mixed Attacker [Expert Belt]) Draco Meteor 61.81 - 73.03%
    Dragonite (OU Choice Band) Outrage 60.85 - 71.59%
    Latios (OU Choice [Choice Scarf]) Draco Meteor 58.23 - 68.73%
    Mamoswine (OU Physical Attacker [Life Orb]) Stone Edge 57.75 - 68.25%
    Weavile (OU Physical Attacker [Choice Band]) Low Kick 56.8 - 67.3%
    Gyarados (OU Offensive Dragon Dance) Stone Edge 55.84 - 66.34%

    Below here, you can set up while switching into Stealth Rock (i.e., below 62.5%)
    Mamoswine (OU Choice Scarf) Superpower 52.98 - 62.52%
    Dragonite (OU Tank) Draco Meteor 52.98 - 62.52%
    Rotom-W (OU Bulky Attacker) Volt Switch 50.59 - 60.14%
    Scizor (OU Choice Scarf) Superpower 48.68 - 57.27%
    Ferrothorn (OU Standard) Power Whip 44.86 - 53.46%
    Dragonite (OU Tank (Rain)) Thunder 43.91 - 52.02%
    Rotom-W (OU Specially Defensive) Volt Switch 41.52 - 49.16%
    Dragonite (OU Dragon Dance) Outrage 40.33 - 47.97%
    Salamence (OU Choice Scarf) Outrage 37.23 - 43.91%

    So basically - a bunch of Dragons, scarf Keldeo, Scizor's Bullet Punch, Rotom-W's Volt Switch, Mamoswine, Landorus-T...the list goes on. And once Walrein gets going, it usually doesn't end well for the opposition. Substitute and Protect are obviously the two most important moves, but the other two are also incredibly useful. Toxic is useful to speed things up and also necessary against pokemon holding leftovers (like DDNite), or Ice pokemon (like Mamoswine and Weavile). Meanwhile, Blizzard is a good STAB attack that ruins a bunch of pokemon without requiring exhaustive setup.
    The best thing about Walrein is that it has a lot of use even outside generating the 32-turn stall. Against many of the above pokemon it can switch in, force it out, and either Toxic something or whack it with a reasonably strong Blizzard. And even when hail is not up it tanks a wide variety of physical attacks and can Toxic/Blizzard stuff to death. If rain is up it can perform a stunted version of the Sub/Protect cycle and Toxic stall many pokemon.
    This is the MVP of the team. Those who were around in 4th generation probably remember Stallrein and trust me, it's just as annoying now. Very little can stop it once it gets rolling and it's very hard to stop it from setting up. In short, Stallrein is incredibly well-positioned to take advantage of the current offensive meta, where most pokemon don't have leftovers to avoid dying from hail, and wreck entire teams which are unprepared to face its wrath.

    Edit: I'm adding some games showing how the team plays.
    Walrein beats a hyper-offensive team: http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou10002935
    Outstanding, drawn-out stall game vs Kidogo: http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou10024165

    Some Closing Remarks
    So, that's the team, Winter's Guardians. It's done fairly well for me so far and I think it can become better. In order to give a jumpstart to those willing to help me out, here's some threats that this team has trouble handling:

    LO SDRoost Scizor: This is enemy number one in my mind. Not because I lose to it most - in fact I don't see it often and have beaten it because people tend to misplay (letting it get low enough that Gliscor can taunt it and basically force it to kill itself between LO recoil and hail damage). However, I'm pretty sure that if played right it wrecks my team. I don't think it can switch into Gliscor, but if it gets a boost anywhere else it's tough to stop.

    Conkeldurr: The recent rise of Ice Punch Conkeldurr makes him difficult. Fortunately this tends to show up on weatherless teams so Walrein can Toxic and then stall him out (as he Subs faster than Drain Punch and can tank any Mach Punch below like, +3), but otherwise he can often kill 2-3 pokemon before Toxic brings him down.

    As pointed out by butterfingers158 - Lucario: In a similar vein to Conkeldurr, if SD Lucario carries Ice Punch I'm in a bit of a bind. I've been fortunate enough to not encounter this very often, but it does quite suck to kill.

    Gengar: Just kind of annoying to kill. Nothing on my team really enjoys facing it 1v1. Forretress can Gyro Ball followed by Ice Shard for the KO, or Walrein can Blizzard followed by Ice Shard, but neither likes Focus Blast.

    Jirachi: Gliscor can generally kill it but it's a pain. Flinch-hax can cost the game.

    Those are the main threats. Other things which I can handle but are slightly annoying to face include Tentacruel, Reuniclus, Kyurem-B, and well put together Baton Pass teams. If you have any ideas for making the team stronger against these threats, please let me know.

    Thanks to all who read. As I said, I hope not only to improve my team, but also to get people to consider stall as a legitimate force in the current metagame. Hopefully this team has gone some way in convincing you of this. Rate, hate, luvdisc!
  2. butterfingers158


    Dec 7, 2009
    One threat I see I see is SD Lucario with Ice Punch

    It can set up on forry or blissey fairly easily and can 1hko everything on your team except for latias and forry (though it has a 43.75% chance to 1hko forry if it has taken SR damage)

    An easy fix for this would be to up the speed on your gliscor. While it wouldn't be able to take other hits quite as well, running a spread of 252 HP/140 Def/116 Speed with a Jolly nature allows you to outrun Adamant Lucario by 1 point.

    Good team overall, and congrats on your ladder success.
  3. jpw234

    jpw234 Catastrophic Event Specialist

    Feb 13, 2013
    Yeah, I suppose I've been fortunate that most of the Lucario I've seen have been carrying Crunch rather than Ice Punch, or that they try to set up on Abomasnow and I just EQ them. It definitely has the potential to be a lot of trouble for me. The only thing I'm worried about is that it makes stuff like CB Terrakion a bit tougher to stomach. I'll test out the new spread and see what I think. Thanks!
  4. 4daptability


    Apr 2, 2012
    Hi. Nice team!

    I like the concept of Stallrein being used in hail, and was surprised at how easy it is to set up a Sub and wreck havoc. I haven't actually tried the team out, but I think Technician Breloom is at least somewhat of a threat to this team, at least on paper. I suppose you can Life Orb stall it, but it's going to definitely going to be hurting something with boosted Bullet Seeds and Mach Punches, though you do have both Blissey and Gliscor to deal with absorbing Spores. On another note, I'm not sure if Sub CM Keldeo is actually that common on the ladder, as I've just returned from a short break from the game, but if it is, your Latias will not be beating it 1V1, unless you pack Psyshock or Psychic. I'll be sure to leave a more detailed rate, after I try the team out, but those are some things I noticed off the top of my head.
  5. jpw234

    jpw234 Catastrophic Event Specialist

    Feb 13, 2013
    Breloom has been a problem for every team I've ever made, but surprisingly, it's really not all that bad with this one. I mean, it's still annoying as ever with Spore and the ability to either +2 Bullet Seed, SubPunch, Leech Seed, etc., but I have three pokemon which match up pretty well with it (Forretress, Gliscor, Latias), so I can generally play around it. Also, Breloom can't switch in to Walrein unless he's already pretty low health, as Blizzard OHKOs and I believe Bullet Seed only does about 24% so it doesn't break the Sub on the first hit.
    As for SubCM Keldeo...yeah. I've been able to Toxic it and stall in the past but it's not a good fix. Lots of people are willing to be scared off by Latias if I don't reveal the moveset but it certainly could be an issue. I'm just not sure if Psyshock > Substitute is worth the fact that I won't be able to use it as well against stall teams, who will be able to Toxic it.
  6. Kidogo


    Feb 11, 2012
    Don't have time for a full rate, but just want to say I remember playing this team a few days ago and it was super impressive. I was using a semi-stall team, and you cleanly outstalled me while blocking my attempts at a sweep. Nice team, great job making such a difficult playstyle work!
  7. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte Who says I can't get stoned?
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Jul 5, 2012
    Hey Tonyg88! I got your request!

    As kidogo said, this is a very solid team, and from the deepness of your descriptions and playstyle your success is of absolutely no surprise to me. However, no matter how solid you make a team, and no matter how hard you try to cover its weaknesses- one things stays the same- the fact that Ice types are Ice types and they are weak to a few key common threats that this team also seems to be weak to:

    ~Steel types. Abomasnow is weak to Steel types, as is Wallrein not because it is weak to Steel type attacks but because almost all Steel types in the tier can wall and set up on it. Because those two are the foundation of your team, pokemon that can exploit this weakness such as Jirachi, Scizor, and Lucario will all be pretty big threats to you. Jirachi's Iron Head, Wish Recovery, massive Special Defense, and immunity to Toxic makes it a big defensive wall that you will have trouble breaking through. Lucario is an offensive threats that you don't have any answers to- Ice Punch and Close Combat in conjunction with Swords Dance let Lucario set up and KO your entire team. Scizor is like a mix between the two- it can take hits, and set up and KO things. I can see your efforts to break past steels- you have Forretress to sponge hits, and a clever HP Fire on Aboma to snag unsuspecting Forretresses and Ferrothorns. However, it is not enough. Due to the over abundance of Steel types in this meta, carrying a sponge that can't reply with an attack and a pokemon that is weak to steels itself won't help you defeat opposing steels.

    ~Fighting types. Lucario is a huge threat because it falls under both categories- but there are also many other fighting types that might give you a headache. Keldeo with Tyranitar / Scizor support, which is becoming increasingly common these days, can mow down your team once Latias is trapped and killed. Breloom can also do significat amounts of damage, sporing your walls to death and escaping your Psyshock-less Latias. Terrakion is a lesser threat because you have Forretress and Gliscor but with Gliscor gone it too can do a lot of damage. The lesser seen Conkeldurr can also be a big threat, as it actually benefits from your Toxic stalling. Drain Punch lets it recover HP off of Wallrein's big HP stat, and Ice Punch will let it get past Gliscor.

    To help you handle these problems, here is one change you can make.

    First thing: I strongly advise you to use Hidden Power Fire over Sub on Latias. This change gives you a way to defeat Steel types like Jirachi, Ferrothorn, Scizor, and Lucario etc. This will help A LOT with your stalling because Steel types love switching in on CM Latias even more than they like coming in on Abomasnow- because many Abomasnow carry EQ but few CM Latias's carry HP Fire. The addition of HP Fire also helps you fend off Fighting types both directly and indirectly. Breloom falls to HP Fire after just one boost iirc and adding hazards + hail basically secures a kill. Lucario also falls to HP Fire. Keldeo is 'beaten' by HP Fire Latias as Latias can use HP Fire to prevent herself from being trapped by Scizor (and TTar can be baited + KO'd with Aboma, Forretress, and / or Gliscor) Adding HP Fire on Latias will also help against Sun teams- KO'ing Venasaur and other Chlorophyll sweepers. I suggest you ditch Substitute as it clashes with Hail and because you have Blissey to heal status.

    You mentioned a change in Latias's spread- which I agree is a good idea (if you feel as if you can handle Gengar adequately, which I think is not entirely impossible) Speed tieing with Latios and Espeon is of really no use to you, as neither pokemon are threats. A spread of 252 HP / 16 Def / 240 Spe Timid can be used to outspeed Max speed Musketeers, but in my opinion even that is unnecessary- you can try 252 HP / 64 Def / 198 Spe Timid to outspeed Max Speed Garchomp. The tiny bit of physical bulk and decrease in speed will definitely help you when handling Gyro Ballers and Fighting types.

    A small change, but it could make all the difference. Good luck!
  8. jpw234

    jpw234 Catastrophic Event Specialist

    Feb 13, 2013
    That's...genius. Yeah, Keldeo with Weavile/Scizor/TTar support is a real pain, and Jirachi switches into Latias more times than I can count. I expect that this change will probably make my life a lot easier, thanks a bunch.
  9. Alexander.

    won the 2nd Official Ladder Tournament

    Jan 24, 2012
    Hey, got the request.

    Very cool team you have here so props for it. However, I have some advice to give you so let's go with the rate. Well, first of all, I see that Lucario with Ice Punch is problematic for your team since it hits hard Gliscor with Ice Punch and then can smash your team with Close Combat. Therefore, I suggest you to use Jolly nature on Gliscor with 112 EVs on Speed because 112 EVs in Speed and Jolly nature allow Gliscor to outspeed Lucario and to KO it with Earthquake, they allow to outspeed and KO Toxicroak which is a threat for your team too if it has Ice Punch. Then, another threat for your team is Keldeo, especially the Calm Mind one which can setup on Forretress and then sweep your team very easily so I suggest you to use Psyshock replacing Hidden Power Fire on Latias because she doesn't need Hidden Power Fire to hit Lucario if you use the Gliscor which I suggested you and because steel-types in general doesn't seem a problem for this team since Abomasnow can surprise and destroy Scizor and Ferrothorn with Hidden Power Fire and can do a lots of damages on Jirachi with Earthquake, otherwise Psyshock allows Latias to KO Keldeo and it allows to hit Breloom and Terrakion which can be very troublesome if you lose Gliscor for some reason. As last thing, I'd use Shed Shell on Forretress replacing Leftovers because Forretress is your only steel-type and if Magnezone trap-kill it with Magnet Pull, you can have some problem against dragon-types, Shed Shell Forretress is in general useful against DragMagn teams and since they are quite popular nowadays probably Shed Shell is a better choice than Leftovers on Forretress.

    Good luck!
  10. Honus

    Honus with them
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Mar 23, 2011
    Hey man, cool team; hail is always a bitch to play against because of Abomasnow. Anyways I actually really like this team a lot and it seems like you already have a pretty solid idea of how to play properly. Anyways it seems like Lucario with Ice Punch is a big threat to this team. Luke is able to set up on Blissey, Walrein and Forretress and obviously threaten Gliscor and Abomasnow with supereffective attacks. Latias is taking a pretty harsh 66.21% - 78.02% from a +2 Extremespeed, while HP Fire only does 51.77% - 61.7% back, so it's not really the best counter. In addition to Latias being a relatively flimsy counter; even if it does beat Latias, it will be pretty battered down, so a wise opponent could just send in HP Scarf Ice Keldeo after that and do 33.52% - 39.56%, taking out its main counter on the team. I saw that you also cited SD Roost LO Scizor as a threat, and it definitely looks like one, despite the fact that Gliscor can hold it somewhat. It's a very hard Pokemon to stop endgame without a hard counter or check given its combination of power and recovery. If you're willing to let the walrus go I think this team could maybe benefit from a Jellicent in its place. For one thing, Jellicent provides a spinblock for your Spikes, helping you infinitely against both stall and offensive teams alike, as well as the ability to Taunt/WoW which also hurts many stall teams. Jellicent also provides an additional Keldeo counter to the team, in case you happen to lose Latias; and TTar doesn't have as easy a switchin as it does with Latias thanks to Will O Wisp. In addition to those benefits, Jellicent has pretty great type and threat synergy with Gliscor and Forretress and the 3 form a fantastic defensive core. Jellicent is one of the best SD Ice Punch Luke and SD LO Roost Scizor counters in the game, crippling both with Will O Wisp, Taunt and Scald while taking very little damage from your attacks. Other than that the team is pretty solid; CM Jirachi could be a bit of a problem and you could potentially run Roar>HP Fire on Latias but you don't really see him that much anyways and HP Fire seems like the inherently better choice.

    Jellicent (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 248 HP / 212 Def / 48 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Scald
    - Will O Wisp
    - Taunt
    - Recover
  11. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Jun 11, 2011
    Alright I gave a try to the team, and while being awesome overall, you have a weakness to Steel types which is quite serious, as it was already pointed out. I completely agree with Honus here over me, Lucario looks like a big threat, but even things like AgiliGross can put you under consistent pressure (it can set up against Forretress, or Latias, then it proceeds to cause some serious damage before being forced out; it doesn't OHKO anything straight away (well except Gliscor with Ice Punch) but 2HKO almost everything, and the only one that is not 2HKO'd, Walrein, fails to do anything significant back). Some Jirachi sets look the same, especially if they manage to paralyze Gliscor or if they carry CM and a special move that can hit Gliscor. I was able to play around them some times, but it's quite hard since if Gliscor goes down to whatever reason (like being critted to death...) you're basically helpless. I suggest you test out Honus's suggestions, they look reasonable ways to fix your problem (although removing Walrein won't be easy, the thing is so bulky that it's almost impossible to take it down).
  12. Delko

    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Sep 7, 2009
    Hi, nice Hail team :p

    At first I was considering Jellicent > Walrein too, but since this team is based around Stallrein, I decided not to. I think a faster Gliscor spread can work here as an alternative. Something like 244 HP / 44 Def / 220 Spd should be a good option. 244 gives maximum Poison Heal recovery and the speed allows you to outspeed Lucario and Toxicroak, both can be a bit of a problem for your team should they carry Ice Punch. If you don't like the drop in bulk you can always make Latias bulkier, something like 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 Spd with a Bold nature can be considered. It lets Latias take physical hits much better and after a CM or two she can take hits from both sides of the spectrum with relative ease. And don't worry, Latias is still a speedy pokemon, even without a lot of speed investment.

    I hope this helps and good luck with the team !
  13. jpw234

    jpw234 Catastrophic Event Specialist

    Feb 13, 2013
    You guys are awake at strange hours O_o...but thanks for the help! I'm making several EV tweaks. It seems that the consensus is that Gliscor needs to be faster, so I'm using Delko's spread of 244 HP / 44 Def / 220 Speed Impish, to get the jump on Lucario and Toxicroak. Also, I'm using the bulkier Latias spread of 252 HP / 64 Def / 198 Spe Timid as suggested by Electrolyte, because it's true that I don't really need to outspeed any of the pokemon I'm missing out on. While it pains me slightly to remove Walrein I definitely see the rationale for replacing him with Jellicent, so I'm testing it out currently. My only fear with this is that Jellicent makes Latias slightly redundant, as the only threats she's really covering now are sun sweepers. If anybody has a suggestion for replacing Latias given Jellicent > Walrein, please let me know - perhaps Heatran?

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