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[WIP] Flygon [Update]

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by kokoloko, Mar 25, 2012.

  1. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
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    [pimg]330[/pimg]
    [url="http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/flygon]Flygon[/url]

    [Overview]

    • Flygon is widely regarded as the best Choice Scarf user in the tier due to Levitate granting it immunity to Spikes, resistance to Stealth Rock, and access to U-turn.
    • Its typing is fantastic, both offensively and defensively, as it gives Flygon plenty of immunities and resistances to come in a few times while providing it with what is arguably the most devastating STAB combination in the game (see: Garchomp).
    • Unfortunately, its Attack and Special Attack are decidedly average, and although it sometimes falls short of KOing some specific threats, Ground- and Dragon-type STAB moves are amazing even without the stats to back them up.
    • Despite these shortcomings, Flygon continues to shine as one of the best revenge killers and scouts in the entire game, and should always be kept in mind when building a team.

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Earthquake
    move 2: Outrage
    move 3: U-turn
    move 4: Stone Edge / Fire Blast
    item: Choice Scarf
    nature: Jolly / Adamant
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    • Flygon's trademark set and hands-down what he is best at: revenge killing and scouting.
    • What makes this set so effective is Flygon's unique perk of being a Levitating Ground-type, making it immune to virtually all forms of residual damage, bar Stealth Rock, which it resists anyway, and access to U-turn.
    • Flygon's typing is also a blessing offensively, as its STAB combination is only resisted by two commonly seen Pokemon: Skarmory and Bronzong.
    • Earthquake serves as this set's primary STAB for the main reason that it doesn't have Outrage's nasty side effect of forcing Flygon to stay in for a couple of turns. However, locking yourself into Earthquake can prove to be devastating, as dangerous Pokemon, such as Gyarados and Dragonite, can use the opportunity to set up.
    • Outrage can, however, prove to be absolutely devastating for your opponent once his Steel-types have been removed.
    • Luckily, Flygon has access to the move U-turn, which allows it to scout for these threats before taking the risk of locking itself into one of its STAB moves.
    • Stone Edge gives Flygon the opportunity to hurt Gyarados, Dragonite, and Zapdos without the need to lock itself into Outrage, while Fire Blast lets it do some damage to Skarmory and Bronzong, whom otherwise switch in for free.

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    • The given EV spread serves to maximize Flygon's revenge killing capabilities, with the remainder tossed into Special Defense to prevent the rare Download Porygon-Z from getting a beneficial boost as it switches in.
    • A Jolly nature is the primary pick here because it is necessary in order to outpace +2 Tyranitar, Metagross, Timid Empoleon, and Timid Choice Scarf Roserade, and to at least tie with opposing Choice Scarf Flygon and Jirachi.
    • However, an Adamant is more than viable, as it not only provides Flygon with some much needed power, but it also gives it a better opportunity to get the slower U-turn in Choice Scarf Flygon mirror matches.
    • Another way of achieving this is by simply lowering the Speed EVs to 240, which will allow Flygon to still be faster than +2 Adamant Metagross, +2 Jolly Tyranitar and +2 Timid Empoleon, assuming a Jolly nature.
    • Keep in mind, however, that doing this will guarantee your loss if the match happens to be decided by whose Flygon gets to Outrage first, a situation which is somewhat likely to arise.
    • EV spread tweaks aside, Flygon can also run ThunderPunch in its fourth moveslot in order to revenge kill Gyarados much more reliably than it can with Stone Edge.
      -------------
    • Teammates: Scizor, Skarmory, and Magnezone are the best, but this thing can fit pretty easily into almost any team.

    [SET]
    name: Mixed Attacker
    move 1: Draco Meteor
    move 2: Earthquake
    move 3: Fire Blast
    move 4: Roost / Outrage
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Rash / Naive
    evs: 80 Atk / 252 SpA / 176 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]


    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    • You can run 40 Atk / 252 SpA / 216 Spe with Naive to outpace Gliscor or even max Speed to beat Hidden Power Fire Shaymin and tie with other base 100s

    [SET]
    name: Physical Attacker
    move 1: Earthquake
    move 2: Outrage / Dragon Claw
    move 3: U-turn / Roost
    move 4: Fire Punch / Stone Edge
    item: Choice Band / Life Orb
    nature: Jolly / Adamant
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]


    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    • Screech can be used here with LO

    [Other Options]

    • Choice Specs set is doable but really weak
    • Toxic stall set beats stuff like Vaporeon
    • Crunch for Rotom and Gengar without locking yourself into Outrage

    [Checks and Counters]

  2. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
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    Okay yeah I put up a bare skeleton with only a few reminders for myself so that we could move the discussion from the other thread to here.

    I still think the Physical Attacker set should go before the Mixed set because its bettererer - I use CB Flygon a lot, js.
  3. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk woop woop woop
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    Okay, so slash Adamant before Jolly. 100 base Attack isn't too impressive anyways, and with a Jolly nature you're super weak. Also, you miss out on almost nothing, really only other Flygon, Scarf Jirachi, Scarf Roserade, Rain Dance Ludicolo, and Adamant AgiliGross. Metagross is usually Jolly, Scarf Roserade is rare out of the lead position, and Rain Dance Ludicolo is even rare. Also, KOing Nasty Plot Celebi with U-turn after Stealth Rock is kind of a big deal, and Jolly fails to do that, among other stuff.

    Toxic is also a worth a mention in AC, being able to poison bulky Pokemon that like to switch in on Flygon considering non-super effective moves won't bother them. Hitting stuff like Vaporeon and Zapdos with Toxic can be really useful.

    Slash Roost before Outrage, I would even go as far as deslashing it. Outrage doesn't really hit anything, and Roost + SS immunity / SR resist / (Toxic) Spikes immunity is one of the main reasons to use Mixed Flygon. A mention in AC should be fine. Also, mention Expert Belt U-turn as a lure in AC, can be effective. U-turn first time it comes in while they switch to their Flygon counter while no Leftovers or Life Orb or something out of the ordinary is revealed, and next time it comes in use the appropriate move and let something like DD Gyarados sweep much more easily. Also, if you're gonna go with a Naive nature, I would go all the way with 252 Spe, as this lets you outspeed Hidden Power Fire Shaymin and KO it with Fire Blast (after two Stealth Rock switchins or SR + 1 layer of Spikes), as this can be hard to handle for teams who have Scizor as their main Shaymin counter.

    Deslash Adamant on the CB / LO set though, its 100 base Speed is one its best features, and not being able to speed tie with Jirachi, Shaymin, Celebi sucks. I would change the moveset to the following:

    move 1: Earthquake
    move 2: Outrage / Dragon Claw
    move 3: U-turn / Roost
    move 4: Fire Punch / Stone Edge

    The Choice Band set really needs Fire Punch for stuff like Skarmory and Bronzong, Dragon Claw isn't even a worthy option there imo. Life Orb set probably wants Dragon Claw as its main STAB move, and Stone Edge in the last slot can nail stuff like Zapdos and Dragonite.

    Also, Screech mention in AC seems good enough for me instead of a whole set, so that seems cool. Also mention in Other Options that there really isn't a reason to use Toxic Stall Flygon over Gliscor.
  4. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
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    Adamant > Jolly on Scarf - yes I agree completely, I had a feeling others wouldn't though, that's why I kept it like it currently is. I was planning on mentioning Toxic already.

    Roost > Outrage on Mixed - okay.

    Physical Attacker changes - Adamant is staying slashed, the power is really useful and the speed is not always needed. Jolly is usually better, I agree, but Adamant is usable a large amount of the time. The move order you picked seems ok, I'll go with that.
  5. reyscarface

    reyscarface
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    no no no, jolly > adamant every single time on scarf.

    You bring up nasty plot celebi, but the speed tie with other flygon and jirachi is waaaay more a) common b) important.

    you say you dont miss on many speed targets with adamant, but you dont miss the power by using jolly.
  6. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    AgiliGross never runs Jolly, what metagame are you talking about? Standard Metagross ran enough Speed to outspeed ScarfTran. Also, Jolly lets you outspeed Scarf Rotom-A as well. Being able to tie with other Flygons, ScarfRachi (Getting Iron Head flinched to death is fun, yes?) and Rotom-A alone is probably worth using Jolly over Adamant. It also outspeeds +2 DDTar.
  7. whistle

    whistle
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    rotom-a is always slower than max speed base 100s regardless of nature.

    food for thought (open)

    04:09:56: <[sky]Whisler> http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3464158
    04:09:57: <PKGaming> 8t
    04:10:03: <[sky]Whisler> does anyone use adamant scarf flygon
    04:10:08: <[sky]Whisler> i thought it was jolly or no point...
    04:10:39: <[sky]conic> should be jolly
    04:10:43: <[sky]conic> but adamant is definitely an option
    04:10:46: <[sky]conic> if you have skarmory or something
    04:10:55: <[sky]conic> i cant tell you how many games ive lost
    04:11:04: <[sky]conic> because i got a low damage roll on outrage or something
    04:11:04: <NEGRES> lol
    04:11:06: <NEGRES> this made me laugh
    04:11:07: <NEGRES> (07:37:18) AJC: i am fucking going to japan and freaking finish off what that tsunami couldn't
    04:11:11: <andrew> xD
    04:11:13: <[sky]conic> ROFL
    04:11:17: <andrew> poor iconic
    04:11:20: <andrew> ;/
    04:11:24: <[sky]conic> ugh yeah snype
    04:11:27: <[sky]conic> my flygon was a fucking pussy
    04:11:31: <andrew> i calc'd it earlier
    04:11:37: <andrew> since a similar situation happened
    04:11:39: <andrew> and apparently
    04:11:43: <andrew> you don't KO infernape without any hazards
    04:11:46: <andrew> with outrage
    04:11:49: <[sky]Whisler> ya
    04:11:49: <NEGRES> adamant is good whistle
    04:11:53: <[sky]conic> i remember calcing it
    04:11:54: <NEGRES> if you have lots of flygon checks/counters
    04:11:59: <[sky]conic> i got a 50/50 roll pretty much
    04:12:01: <NEGRES> flygon hits like a bitch
    04:12:03: <[sky]conic> since ape was at like 78
    04:12:09: <NEGRES> i remember playing some (BAN ME PLEASE) thinking i had it sealed
    04:12:09: <[sky]Whisler> Ok
    04:12:12: <NEGRES> outrage did 96% to dnite
    04:12:15: <[sky]Whisler> LOL
    04:12:17: <NEGRES> i was irate
    04:12:35: <PKGaming> LOL
    04:12:49: <[sky]Whisler> how come
    04:12:52: <[sky]Whisler> i never spoke to franky
    04:12:54: <[sky]Whisler> thats so weird
    04:12:57: <ReyScarface> adamant is shit
    04:13:02: <ReyScarface> jolly is
    04:13:03: <ReyScarface> the only nature
    04:13:04: <[sky]Whisler> you should all post in that thread :)
    04:13:06: <ReyScarface> for scarf flygon
    04:13:10: <[sky]conic> 88.6% - 104.7%
    04:13:12: <[sky]Whisler> or i can just copy paste
    04:13:12: <[sky]conic> that's outrage
    04:13:13: <[sky]Whisler> i guess
  8. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk woop woop woop
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    Okay, point taken, just because I run Jolly to outspeed all Scarf Flygon all others do. Though btw, the standard is 196 Spe, which lets you outspeed Scarf Rotom-A with an Adamant nature and Flygon when Jolly. Oh, and Jolly is in fact the main slash on the Agility set.

    No, that is not true.
    Scarf Rotom-A: 447 Speed
    Scarf Adamant Flygon: 448 Speed

    Barely, but you still outspeed.

    Just saying, but the chance of being Iron Head flinched to death by Scarf Jirachi isn't that big of a difference. Assuming the following (which I know isn't completely true, but after SR it's the case most of the time, I don't wanna bother factoring 5% KO and 90% KO chances and stuff like that anyways, it's not that big of a difference):

    - Jirachi 2HKOes Flygon with Iron Head
    - Jolly Flygon 2HKOes Jirachi with Earthquake
    - Adamant Flygon OHKOes Jirachi with Earthquake

    So, Jolly Flygon must hit Jirachi twice to come out on top. This is done by not getting flinched turn 1 and winning the speedtie turn 2. So:

    0.70 (1 - 0.50 * 0.60, chance of not getting flinched turn 1) * 0.50 (chance of winning the speed tie = 0.35 = 35% chance of winning.

    Now, Adamant Flygon has to hit Jirachi once, but if it's flinched turn 1 it loses. So, it basically depends on whether or not Flygon gets flinched turn 1:

    1 - 0.60 (chance of getting flinched turn 1) = 0.40 = 40% chance of winning.

    Adamant Flygon actually is more likely to come out on top of Jirachi it seems. Though keep in mind that this is a little simplified, so the odds in fact shift slightly to Jolly's favor, but still you can see the difference is very insignificant.

    To tie with other Jolly Flygon is not a reason to make Jolly the main nature, mostly speed creep but okay. Also, I personally like my Flygon to be slower than others, I know losing the speed tie guaranteed sucks if you end up with something like HECTOR vs M_Dragon in ST5, but mostly you'll be U-turning, and being slower means you get the momentum. If the other Flygon Outrages, you get one or two turn to set up or kill it.

    Not really that significant. Tyranitar will rarely ever get up to +2, especially when you have Flygon who should switch in to Tyranitar anyways. That, and I prefer being able to actually KO DDTar instead of outspeeding it after two Dragon Dances.

    Hm, what about I list the things where you miss speed, and the ones where you miss power to see the advantages/disadvantages of each nature.

    You miss speed vs:
    - Scarf Jirachi
    - Other Scarf Flygon
    - Adamant Agiligross
    - Scarf Roserade
    - Modest Rain Dance Ludicolo
    - +2 DDTar
    - Motor Drive Electivire
    - unboosted Ninjask

    You miss power vs:
    - Shuca Berry Heatran
    - Choice Band Scizor
    - Offensive DD Gyarados
    - 4 HP Rotom-A
    - Outrage vs Infernape
    - Life Orb Starmie
    - Choice Scarf / Dragon Dance Tyranitar
    - Bulky Dragonite without SR
    - Breloom
    - Any Jirachi:
    - 4 HP Jirachi you miss out on OHKOing with Earthquake
    - 252 HP you miss out on KOing after one Sub
    - Defensive Wish CM you miss out on 2HKOing
    - Blissey
    - Offensive Zapdos
    - Offensive Suicune
    - Nasty Plot Celebi
    - Shaymin
    - Snorlax
    - Togekiss without SR
    - more stuff, these are the most important ones
  9. whistle

    whistle
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    ummmm your logic is flawed for the basic reason that pokemon don't stay at 100% as a battle progresses... you're making the tradeoff very complicated when in fact it's simple. if you use adamant you no longer have a chance to revenge kill certain pokemon. if you use jolly you're less likely to set up a scarf flygon sweep late game. residual damage, or lack thereof, should roughly balance out between the two. I could write a nerd essay arguing against most of your points but since pokemon isn't played in a vacuum, the question of whether a 100% flygon vs 100% <whatever> comes out in favor of flygon is nearly irrelevant.

    scarf flygon is usually used primarily as a revenge killer, and the nature should reflect that. however, adamant is a good option depending on your team and how you play it - as atticus points out, sometimes speed tying w/ other flygon isn't necessary, or maybe your team doesn't have spikes and you want the extra damage, etc.
  10. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
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    This is why I originally had Jolly first, I figured it was "more standard," so yeah, I'll be going back to having it as the main slash now. Don't worry though, I'll be sure to thoroughly explain all the pros and cons of both natures, especially since I also prefer Adamant myself.
  11. Bluewind

    Bluewind My appearance, ability, and awesomeness strike fea
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    Shuca TTar will easily get to +2 and if I'm not mistaken TTar's a Behemoth with ridiculously high defenses, which should mean Adamant EQ won't ko it. Making a list of Pokemon you can pick off with higher Attack makes no sense; I can say running Timid on Starmie helps me against Gengar, Nape and Starmie and hurts me against other 50 Pokemon; but it's just too important for Starmie to beat those 3.

    I won't go into the merit of the whole Adamant / Jolly Flygon vs Jirachi because it's pretty likely he won't be at max HP, but as a reminder Ice Punch exists and beats Adamant Gon 100% of the time. Also you can add Timid Agility Empoleon to that list.
  12. Adamant Zoroark

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    I really don't like using Scarf Flygon, but I say Jolly as the first nature just because Jirachi can learn Ice Punch, as Bluewind said, and thus Adamant Flygon has no chance of beating Jirachi. Even though Earthquake won't OHKO Jirachi at full health according to Tomohawk, it's also unlikely Jirachi will be at full health for the entire battle. If you really want more power, use Choice Band or something.
  13. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk woop woop woop
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    Actually I assumed SR for everything. But okay, since pretty much everyone disagrees, you can slash Jolly slot 1.

    Also, Timid Empoleon doesn't really exist.

    And the "if you want more power, use Choice Band" is kind of dumb to be honest. Jolly misses out on several KOes which Adamant doesn't, so if I wanted those KOes I should just run CB?
  14. Bluewind

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    The point was never that, you put calcs on Pokemon like Suicune and Scizor that obviously aren't OHKOed; and the whole point people were defending here was that extra 10% damage wasn't worth the risk of not outspeeding other threats in other cases; unless your team had that well covered. Also Timid Empoleon beats Scarf Rotom which is not only an extremely common scarfer, but also one of the few that doesn't need an specific move to beat it, like Jirachi needs Thunderpunch (Idk if he can KO SubPetaya with Fire Punch and there is Timid LO 3 attacks Empoleon).
  15. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk woop woop woop
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    I'm not saying they are OHKOed, but with Adamant you can 2HKO them while with Jolly you miss out on that. I just think that Jolly > Adamant covers very little: other Flygon, Scarf Jirachi, and Adamant Agiligross is basically all it's good for, and I'd rather have that 10% extra power than try to speed tie vs Flygon / Jirachi and revenge one sweeper. But yeah, I think this discussion is over now.
  16. george182

    george182

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    I'm wondering why you have slashed Outrage over Roost on the mix Flygon set. Flygon is not Salamence, it's outrage will not 2hko Blissey, while Roost is extremely valuable against stall to heal of life orb damage. However U-turn is also a good option in the last slot over roost, it's much better against offensive teams and is still very useful against stall. I just don't see the point in Outrage on this set apart from to get Flygon killed.

    I also don't see why the physical life orb set has been grouped with the choice band set. From my experience they have completely different playstyles. The choice band set excels at bluffing a choice scarf and abusing this to rip holes in an opponents team, while the physical life orb sets main advantage comes through the use of Dragon Claw and Roost. The physical life orb set is the only Flygon set without a hit and run and style, it would be better with it's own description. However this sort of tank role is not something that Flygon is very good at anyway and it doesn't do enough initial damage making the surprise factor of not having a scarf quite weak and no where near as strong as when you use a choice band or a mix set. It also lacks the use of a move like taunt, so its useless against stall. Personally I think the set should just be removed from the site.

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