1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Wish maker rides the lightning! (peaked #14)

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Lady Alex, Feb 12, 2012.

  1. Lady Alex

    Lady Alex I asked Mawile to not hurt me. I was betrayed.
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2010
    Messages:
    572
    Introduction

    Ever since gen 4, I've primarily only used stall teams. Recently I decided I needed a change of pace and attempted to make a more offensively oriented team. The ubiquity of the ever common Tyranitar + Rotom + Scizor + landorus + 2 fillers core is utterly appalling to me, so I immediately decided that I wasn't going to use it in my team. I wanted to be able to check as many threats in the current metagame as I could, but I also wanted to make sure that I wasn't left completely open to lesser used strategies. With that in mind, I decided that I was going to make a rain team, since perish song politoed is able to deal well with baton pass chains, takes away momentum from quick pass teams, and is able to deal with both sand and sun relatively well. Aside from politoed, I wanted to center this team around sub-calm mind jirachi. I hadn't seen it used very often, but I found it to be a great nuisance whenever I did, so I wanted to give it a shot. I also entered this team for my second round of Birkal's dark horse project and have peaked at #14 on the ladder under the name "Gambitess." I'm mostly posting this team because I feel like I've taken it as far as I can as it is and need help with ideas that would solve my issues with certain things that give me a lot of trouble.

    Team at a glance

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]


    Team building process

    [​IMG]

    As I said earlier, I wanted to use a rain team, so I naturally have politoed on this team.
    [​IMG][​IMG]

    I've used specially defensive jirachi in the past and liked it, but I decided to try out a sub-calm mind variant for this team, since it has such great sweeping potential in the rain.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Dugtrio is great for trapping tyranitar and ninetales, allowing me to keep up the rain and give Jirachi its 100% accurate thunders. It also traps heatran and magnezone, which this team has really appreciated.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Even though I set out to make this team offensive, tentacruel allows me to keep hazards off the field for dugtrio and dragonite, as well as a safe switch in to scizor.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    I chose latios for this team because it's great in the rain and I needed something that could dent holes in the opponent to open up a jirachi sweep.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    I originally used specs tornadus instead of dragonite, but I found myself really struggling with opposing jirachi and, to a lesser exent, blissey, so I decided to replace it with dragonite


    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    This is the final version of my team. I chose bulky dragonite mostly because I needed another pokemon and didn't really know what to pick, but it worked out pretty well. I'm really happy with how this team turned out and I think I succeeded in making it with great offensive synergy.

    Details, details

    [​IMG]

    Politoed (F) @ Leftovers Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Scald
    - Toxic
    - Perish Song
    - Protect (Changed to Ice beam)


    Politoed is an amazing pokemon this gen. It went from zero to hero over the course of one generation. I chose the bulky variant over more offensive sets because I needed to be able to consistently rely on politoed to switch in against other weather inducers and certain physical threats. It's just a standard bulky politoed with perish song. Perish song has saved me countless times. It's really amazing for dealing with that one pokemon that just won't go down for late game win conditions. It's also an auto-win for poor baton pass players and still gives players who know what they're doing significant difficulty. I've considered encore over perish song to help me deal with offensive dragonites who like to lead against politoed, but I'm concerned with how I would fair against things like calm mind reuniclus if latios had already tricked its scarf. I've also considered using HP grass over protect to help me deal with gastrodon more easily, but I don't know if sacrificing the healing and scouting ability of protect is worth it, since it would require me to already have toxiced it in order to take it down anyway.

    [​IMG]

    Jirachi @ Leftovers Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Thunder
    - Water Pulse
    - Substitute


    Jirachi has always been one of my favorite pokemon and is the star of this team. He's so adorable! Whenever I had used jirachi in the past, I was always a strong advocate for the specially defensive set, but I'm becoming less and less fond of it. I just feel that it's becoming too easy to deal with. If you run t-wave, you lose the ability to paralyze landorus, who otherwise gains a lot of momentum against a jirachi unable to paralyze it. If you run body slam, you run the risk of not paralyzing at all and will lose to sub-disable gengar if you aren't running protect. Because of that, I decided to try a sub-calm mind set, and have yet to be disappointed. Jirachi relies heavily on the rain, which is why dugtrio support is so crucial to its success on this team. I love this set because of its ability to utterly screw over it's normal switch-ins, such as ferrothorn and skarmory. I usually switch jirachi in whenever ferrothorn tries to set up hazards on politoed and sub on the leech seed or t-wave. Having a free sub and +1 puts jirachi at a huge advantage. Landorus, heatran and gliscor are hit hard by water pulse and anything else has to be wary of getting paralyzed by thunder. Even if jirachi gets forced out later, it very frequently finds other opportunities to set up, or at least spread paralysis. Gastrodon utterly walls this set, and there's nothing I can do about it. I usually try to either get it toxiced or trick it with latios. Once it's scarfed, I can switch to dragonite and set up if it attempts to earthquake.



    [​IMG]

    Dugtrio (M) @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Arena Trap
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Stone Edge (changed to sucker punch)
    - Earthquake
    - Stealth Rock
    - Reversal


    Dugtrio, my choice for the dark horse project. Normally it's only seen on sun teams, but it's been an extremely important member of this team. Both sun and sand are detrimental to jirachi's success, and dugtrio easily beats both ninetales and tyranitar (abomasnow too, if it chooses to ice shard on the first turn. It's usually too risky though). It also traps important steels such as heatran and magnezone, who often switch in to absorb a dragon type attack or attempt to come in on jirachi. My favorite aspect about dugtrio, though, is that it allows me to safely draco meteor with latios even if the opponent has tyranitar. If tyranitar comes in on latios, I switch in to tentacruel, but if it chooses to pursuit, I instead trap it with dugtrio


    [​IMG]

    Tentacruel (M) @ Leftovers Trait: Rain Dish
    EVs: 248 HP / 204 Def / 56 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Protect
    - Scald
    - Rapid Spin
    - Toxic Spikes (Changed to toxic)


    Tentacruel is my team's rapid spinner. I chose tentacruel over starmie because starmie would have made me much more susceptible to scizor, whom tentacruel deals with extremely well. It's just a standard tentacruel, though I use 56 speed EVs to outspeed standard gliscor who runs a few extra speed EVs. Tentacruel keeps both dugtrio and dragonite in good health so that they can safely come in when it's time for them to perform their role. If I have already sacrificed dugtrio, tentacruel is my next best answer to lucario, who could otherwise be a significant threat to my team. It's also an amazing check to gengar, so that I don't have to rely on jirachi or politoed to get rid of it.


    [​IMG]


    Latios (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Surf
    - Trick
    - Thunder


    Latios is my go to guy for obliterating frail pokemon and revenge killing pokemon who get out of control. I love scarf latios for its ability to safely come in when a pokemon dragon dances and 1hko in return. The lack of power isn't much of a concern since draco meteor still does a hefty amount to anything that doesn't resist it. I use thunder for other water or flying pokemon (usually after I've tricked the scarf away). It frequently attracts pokemon like gastrodon and blissey/chansey, so trick cripples them for the rest of the match. My favorite moment is after I trick the scarf to blissey and switch to dugtrio as they wish sometime later in the game (not that it happens often lol). Latios's biggest fear is scizor. It can easily absorb a draco meteor and trap latios. Fortunately, as long as I have the rain up, scizor can't safely switch in on a surf, taking about 57%, while only being able to hit about 70% on latios the next turn with bullet punch. Latios is completely unconcerned with tyranitar, since they'll almost never try to trap it, and will get killed by dugtrio if it does.





    [​IMG]


    Dragonite (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Multiscale
    EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 16 SDef / 184 Spd
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Dragon Claw
    - Substitute
    - Roost
    - Dragon Dance

    Dragonite was my final choice for this team. I really didn't put much thought toward picking it. It just happened, and it works beautifully. I run 184 spd EVs so I'm able to reach 362 speed at +1, outspeeding base 115s, notably starmie. Dragonite loves to come in late game and set up a sub. A lot of people switch in bulky status users in hopes of crippling it with a twave or w-o-w, only to be met with a sub. Heatran is never an issue for setting up with it, since dugtrio has usually already trapped and killed it. It's necessary to get rid of skarmory before dragonite can really do anything, though. It's still useful for baiting skarmory to come in as I switch to something else, however. One of dragonite's biggest problems is terrakion. If I'm only at +1 or 2, scarf terrakion can come in and 1hko if multiscale is broken. Even if dragonite is +2, it only has an 18% chance to ko terrakion if rocks are on the field. Normally it isn't a problem since latios beats most variants, but rock polish terrakion can potentially give me problems late game if my pokemon are weakened or I can't get a paralysis from jirachi.

    So that's my team. I really hope to improve it, and I look forward to everyone's comments and suggestions. Since I already made dark horse for this month, I don't need for the team to be eligible for dark horse anymore, so feel free to include suggestions that include getting rid of dugtrio.
  2. Lady Alex

    Lady Alex I asked Mawile to not hurt me. I was betrayed.
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2010
    Messages:
    572
    Threat list:
    Show Hide
    Code:
    Offensive Threats
     [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/0/0f/248MS.png[/IMG] Tyranitar:
    [LIST]
    [*]Choice Band - dugtrio traps it
    [*]Choice Scarf - same
    [*]Dragon Dance - same
    [/LIST]
    [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/d/d6/Ani479WMS.png[/IMG] Rotom-W: 
    [LIST]
    [*]Choice Scarf / Specs - I usually keep tenta in and set up t-spikes. volt switch only does about 47%, which is easy to recover in the rain. Draco meteor hits ones who try to volt switch out thinking they are faster for about 90%
    [/LIST]
    [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/f/f2/212MS.png[/IMG] Scizor:
    [LIST]
    [*]Choice Band - Tentacruel. If it leads against politoed, I just scald, hoping for a burn.
    [*]Swords Dance - Tentacruel is my best check against it. One's with roost are a problem if I don't get a burn.
    [/LIST]
    [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/8/8a/Ani149MS.png[/IMG] Dragonite:
    [LIST]
    [*]Choice Band - They're usually on weatherless drag/mag teams, so I let politoed scald it to break multiscale, and then revenge it with latios
    [*]Dragon Dance - same, basically. They usually go for 2 dragon dances if they don't lose their lum berry on the first turn, which means I can safely go to latios and 1hko it.
    [*]Mixed - I haven't seen any. I would deal with it the same way as band.
    [*]Parashuffler - I let it paralyze something, and switch to jirachi on the sub. jirachi proceeds to set up on it.
    [/LIST]
    [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/e/e4/Ani186MS.png[/IMG] Politoed:
    [LIST]
    [*]Choice Specs / Scarf - Scout the move with protect fro poli or tenta. If it thinks it can safely ice beam latios, it will get 1hko's by thunder as long as it has no bulk invested.
    [/LIST]
    [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/0/03/Ani485MS.png[/IMG] Heatran:
    [LIST]
    [*]Standard - dugtrio traps it, politoed threatens it, latios hits it hard with surf. Jirachi can usually beat it without losing too much health if heatran comes in while jirachi has a sub up.
    [/LIST]
    [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/7/77/Ani385MS.png[/IMG] Jirachi:
    [LIST]
    [*]Substitute + Calm Mind / Wish + Calm Mind - I usually perish song to force it out so I can deal with it later. If I can predict it coming in, i can reliably beat it with dugtrio. It also hates getting tricked by latios.
    [/LIST]
    [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/6/65/Ani381MS.png[/IMG] Latios:
    [LIST]
    [*]Life Orb - My latios outspeeds
    [*]Choice Scarf / Specs - same. If it wins the speed tie (the only way it can win is if it isn't running hp fire), it becomes set up fodder for jirachi
    [*]Calm Mind - latios deals with it well. if it doesn't have draco meteor, dragonite can dd and then 1hko
    [/LIST]
    [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/3/3b/Ani579MS.png[/IMG] Reuniclus:
    [LIST]
    [*]Calm Mind - Usually trick it with latios. Most of the time they recover, thinking I'm trying to ko them.
    [*]Offensive Trick Room - Smart switching and then I try to take advantage of the turn TR ends.
    [/LIST]
    [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/e/ef/Ani612MS.png[/IMG] Haxorus:
    [LIST]
    [*]Choice Scarf / Choice Band - Mostly on weatherless. Politoed can sacrifice itself and maybe get a burn. Latios can revenge.
    [*]Dragon Dance - Latios can come in on the dragon dance and ko
    [*]Double Dance - same as dragon dance
    [/LIST]
    [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/5/50/Ani038MS.png[/IMG] Ninetales:
    [LIST]
    [*]Nasty Plot - Dugtrio, latios, toxic spikes
    [*]Choice Specs -same
    [*]Special Attacker -same
    [/LIST]
    [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/b/b8/Ani534MS.png[/IMG] Conkeldurr:
    [LIST]
    [*]Bulk Up - tentacruel usually beats it in the rain. If tentacruel died, it would be weakened enough for something else to pick it off
    [/LIST]
    [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/4/4b/Ani251MS.png[/IMG] Celebi:
    [LIST]
    [*]Nasty Plot Sweeper - latios can come in on anything it has and trick it, making it set up fodder for something
    [*]Tinkerbell -I usually switch in tenta to test the set for t-wave. if it turns out to be nasty plot, I go to latios.
    [*]Choice Specs / Choice Scarf - Can be annoying. It's pretty frail, and isn't much of a problem though
    [/LIST]
    [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/9/90/Ani639MS.png[/IMG] Terrakion:
    [LIST]
    [*]Double Dance - If it SD's, latios can outspeed it. if it rock polishes, latios can survive a +0 stone edge.
    [*]Choice Scarf / Choice Band -latios outspeeds and 1hkos. Jirachi can threaten to paralyze scarf variants.
    [/LIST]
    [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/d/d1/Ani130MS.png[/IMG] Gyarados:
    [LIST]
    [*]Offensive / Bulky Dragon Dance - Latios outspeeds +1 gyara.
    [/LIST]
    [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/1/18/Ani094MS.png[/IMG] Gengar:
    [LIST]
    [*]Substitute + Disable / Pain Split - tentacruel.
    [/LIST]
    [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/1/19/Ani121MS.png[/IMG] Starmie:
    [LIST]
    [*]Life Orb -latios. dugtrio can trap it if it's weakened
    [*]Rapid Spin - same
    [*]Choice Specs -same
    [/LIST]
    [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/6/66/Ani645MS.png[/IMG] Landorus:
    [LIST]
    [*]Rock Polish / Swords Dance - I haven't been in a situation where it has the opportunity to set up. I play tenta carefully until i'm confident of its set. If it were to successfully sub on me and get an sd, I would very possibly lose if politoed was weakened enough to be ko'd by earthquake.
    [*]Choice Scarf - It can't really do anything.
    [*]Substitute + 3 Attacks - Same as rock polish / sd
    [/LIST]
    [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/7/74/Ani392MS.png[/IMG] Infernape:
    [LIST]
    [*]Mixed Attacker - latios, tentacruel. dragonite if multiscale is in tact.
    [*]Nasty Plot / Swords Dance Booster - latios, tentacruel
    [*]Choice Band - latios, tentacruel
    [/LIST]
    [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/0/08/Ani637MS.png[/IMG] Volcarona:
    [LIST]
    [*]Offensive Quiver Dance - dugtrio. if dugtrio is down, I can trick it with latios as it bug buzzes, giving dragonite an opportunity to set up.
    [*]Bulky Quiver Dance - same
    [*]Chesto Rest - same
    [*]Substitute - same
    [/LIST]
    [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/d/d8/Ani462MS.png[/IMG] Magnezone:
    [LIST]
    [*]Substitute - dugtrio. surf from latios hits a lot. if it's weakened, tentacruel can finish it off.
    [*]Choice Scarf - Same.
    [/LIST]
    [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/8/88/Ani196MS.png[/IMG] Espeon:
    [LIST]
    [*]Calm Mind - On bp chains, politoed has perish song. if it's standalone, it doesn't like to be tricked, and dragonite can dd and 1hko.
    [/LIST]
    [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/e/e5/Ani373MS.png[/IMG] Salamence:
    [LIST]
    [*]Dragon Dance - Scout the set with politoed. They usually outrage at +1, which allows latios to 1hko it.
    [*]Mixed - same as above
    [*]Defensive - latios. If it isn't carrying earthquake, jirachi can beat it.
    [/LIST]
    [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/6/60/Ani635MS.png[/IMG] Hydreigon:
    [LIST]
    [*]Offensive - isn't usually much of a problem. Latios 1hko's. if it draco meteors poli or tenta, it's set up fodder for jirachi. A well played hydreigon could give my team trouble, however.
    [*]Choice Specs / Choice Scarf -
    [/LIST]
    [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/7/7e/Ani286MS.png[/IMG] Breloom:
    [LIST]
    [*]Sub Seed - I try to get it to spore latios, and force it out with dragonite. Definitely one of the bigger threats to my team.
    [*]Sub Punch - same
    [/LIST]
    [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/b/bb/Ani380MS.png[/IMG] Latias:
    [LIST]
    [*]Calm Mind - Jirachi paralyzes it and can set up along side non roar variants. Dragonite and latios work well too.
    [/LIST]
    [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/2/20/Ani454MS.png[/IMG] Toxicroak:
    [LIST]
    [*]Swords Dance - dugtrio
    [*]Bulk Up - perish song with politoed to deal with it later
    [/LIST]
    [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/b/b0/Ani448MS.png[/IMG] Lucario:
    [LIST]
    [*]Swords Dance - dugtrio, tentacruel
    [*]Nasty Plot -same
    [/LIST]
    [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/b/bf/Ani640MS.png[/IMG] Virizion:
    [LIST]
    [*]Calm Mind - latios can reliably trick it and make it set up fodder, as +1 hp ice doesn't 1hko
    [*]Swords Dance - draco meteor hits a lot. It rarely stays in.
    [/LIST]
    [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/4/44/Ani560MS.png[/IMG] Scrafty:
    [LIST]
    [*]Dragon Dance - idk, it isn't really an issue. I just muscle my way through it
    [*]Bulk Up - same
    [/LIST]
    [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/8/8e/Ani003MS.png[/IMG] Venusaur:
    [LIST]
    [*]Special Growth - As long as I keep the rain up, it isn't a threat.
    [*]Mixed Growth - same
    [*]SubSeed - More threatening. I get it to seed something unimportant, then switch to jirachi and sub.
    [/LIST]
    [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/4/49/Ani376MS.png[/IMG] Metagross:
    [LIST]
    [*]Stealth Rock - politoed
    [*]Choice Scarf / Choice Band - same. if it thunder punches, I can trap it with dugtrio
    [*]Agility - same
    [/LIST]
    [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/f/ff/Ani620MS.png[/IMG] Mienshao:
    [LIST]
    [*]All-Out Attacker - tentacruel/latios
    [*]Choice Scarf / Choice Band -same
    [/LIST]
    [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/5/50/Ani091MS.png[/IMG] Cloyster:
    [LIST]
    [*]Shell Smash - politoed and tenta deal well with it. latios still outspeeds it at +2 iirc
    [/LIST]
    [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/6/67/Ani473MS.png[/IMG] Mamoswine:
    [LIST]
    [*]Physical Attacker - Can be very threatening if politoed is weakened. I usually have to preserve dugtrio and latios at full health so they can survive an ice shard.
    [/LIST]
    [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/1/15/Ani555MS.png[/IMG] Darmanitan:
    [LIST]
    [*]Choice Scarf - it isn't a problem. it can't do anything if rain is up.
    [/LIST]
    [IMG]http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/0/0c/Ani641MS.png[/IMG] Tornadus:
    [LIST]
    [*]Rain Abuser - latios outspeeds it. Jirachi usually scares it away.
    
    Gastrodon: It can be a huge headache if it's used alongside something that absorbs tspikes. I try to toxic it or trick it as quickly as possible
    [/LIST]
    
  3. VN.

    VN. h a d r i a n +
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2011
    Messages:
    975
    This is a really solid team and congrats on the peak.

    Anyways, I think you could probably change your Politoed's EV Spread to 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spd, which puts Politoed at 180 Speed, allowing it to outspeed most Skarmory and Jellicent variants, which can be pretty big if you need to kill the former with Scald or cripple the latter with Toxic. Anyways, I can see Gastrodon with Toxic and Earthquake being a major nuisance to this team. You can probably batter it down with repeated hits, but it's definitely going to hurt your team in some way. I think you could potentially try Refresh on Politoed over Perish Song [since you can Trick to stop BP and SubCM Jirachi almost always beats Reuniclus], so that Politoed can effectively Toxic Stall Gastrodon while it can't do the same in return. Anyways, really solid team and nice job utilizing a dark horse mon.
  4. LighTz911

    LighTz911

    Joined:
    May 18, 2010
    Messages:
    233
    Have you ever considered changing Politoed to Scarf and Latios to Specs? You mentioned that you chose Latios as a team member because you wanted to have something that dents holes in your opponent's team, and I think a Specs Latios would do a good job at it. You don't get to out speed as much as you might want, but I think it's something you might want to try!

    I don't know if this helped, but good luck and congratulations on the peak!
  5. Lady Alex

    Lady Alex I asked Mawile to not hurt me. I was betrayed.
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2010
    Messages:
    572
    Hi, thanks for the rate, karpman!

    I'll definitely try out that EV spread. I had wondered if there was a more efficient EV spread for it. You're totally right about gastrodon. It can sometimes become a real problem, so I'll give Refresh a shot.

    @lightz- I have considered it at one time, but I rely heavily on politoed's bulk, which I would lose if I used scarf. I use scarf on latios because I need for it to have that over the top speed in order to get rid of things like opposing dragons or scarfers.
  6. Razza

    Razza

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2011
    Messages:
    454
    if scarf terrakion is an issue run this spread on dragonite

    Dragonite (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Multiscale
    EVs: 252 HP / 92 SDef / 164 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Dragon Dance
    - Dragon Claw
    - Substitute
    - Roost

    you outspeed scarfed terrakion after 2 dragon dances and can then roost stall the stone edges and wait for a miss then keep dancing.
  7. Ripamon

    Ripamon

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2011
    Messages:
    43
    On reflection your team seems to have a slight weakness to Ferrothorn. I guess Jirachi and Tentacruel will have to muscle past it. In any case great team, thanks for sharing with us and congrats on the peak!
  8. Lady Alex

    Lady Alex I asked Mawile to not hurt me. I was betrayed.
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2010
    Messages:
    572
    @razza- With 164 spd, dragonite only reaches 474 spe at +2 and terrakion is at 519 (they do run jolly don't they?) Anyway, if I do invest enough speed to outspeed terrakion at +2, will the slight loss of bulk really effect keeping my subs alive?

    @ripamon- Well, either jirachi or dragonite can come in on a hazard and start setting up on it. Jirachi is usually the safe option since its subs aren't broken by gyro ball, but it isn't that hard to wear away its pp with dragonite. Thank you ^_^
  9. Razza

    Razza

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2011
    Messages:
    454
    your forgetting dragonite has a jolly nature it reaches 520 speed with that spread
  10. Lady Alex

    Lady Alex I asked Mawile to not hurt me. I was betrayed.
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2010
    Messages:
    572
    Oh, right. Ok, I'll try that. Thanks :)
  11. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,580
    I really enjoy Dark Horse RMTs, so I had to check out yours! This is a very well-crafted team with a well-executed strategy - great job, Lady Alex. The only thing I do not like is how your Politoed and Tentacruel offer easy switch-ins for dragons to set up on and you only have Scarf Latios (and I guess Jirachi?) to deal with them. CM LO Latios seems particularly troublesome, as it can rack up CM boosts on your Tentacruel and Politoed, while switching in your Latios would be risky if it decides to fire a Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse instead. Latios can also easily switch out of Scarf Latios to come in on your Politoed / Tentacruel to wreck your team later.

    Try Ice Beam on Politoed over Protect. It does a great job in pressuring DDNite, Haxorus, and Latios, ending their set up short. It's just a great way to limit the opportunities of devastation that these dragons can dish out to this team. I also suggest trying Toxic over either Protect or Toxic Spikes on Tentacruel. This particular Rapid Spinner is a major set-up bait for Dragons and Grass-types while it sets up Toxic Spikes, and a freak Toxic just catches them by surprise. DDNite with MultiScale intact can rack multiple DDs, while Tentacruel attempts to burn it with Scald. With Toxic, you eat away its Lum immediately, pressuring DDNite to attack. Toxic is also a great way to allow your CM Jirachi beat CM Latias. Even more, however, it allows Tentacruel to deal with Jellicent even before it lays down Toxic Spikes, making it a even more effective Rapid Spinner. You could even try out Mynism's SubToxicTentacruel to bring this strategy to the next level, but that's up to you.

    Also, you may want to consider Psychic over Water Pulse or Psyshock over Thunder, just so Jirachi can touch Gastrodon and maybe even beat it in conjunction with Toxic / Toxic Spikes. Psychic would still allow you to hit Gliscor / Landorus for some decent damage, and you have Heatran covered by Dugtrio, anyways. The 20% SpD drop can always come in handy, too. Alternatively, you could go with Psyshock & Water Pulse, Psyshock allowing you to hit Gastrodon, Blissey, Celebi, and Latias much harder, but you may struggle with Water-types without Thunder.

    These are some things that you may want to consider. Congrats to your successful team, Lady Alex!
  12. Lady Alex

    Lady Alex I asked Mawile to not hurt me. I was betrayed.
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2010
    Messages:
    572
    Thanks for the rate! I really like your suggestions. You're totally right, calm mind latios is terribly difficult for me to deal with, so I'll definitely try ice beam over protect to help me deal with it, as well as with other dragons who try to lead on politoed.

    I think I'll try using Psychic over water pulse as well. Being unable to set up on gastrodon really hurts jirachi's set up potential if it isn't poisoned. Being able to beat the ones that don't carry earthquake would be nice too.

    I'm not sure if I'm going to be changing tentacruel's set. I really enjoy being able to get significant recovery with protect, and it also scares scarf rotom who predict I'm going to switch to dugtrio. I might consider replacing toxic spikes with toxic though, since sometimes the tspikes are negligible and being able to hit jellicent as it comes in would be nice. It would also allow me to have an easier time against teams with gastrodon + tentacruel/roserade. Thanks so much for your help!
  13. BKC

    BKC
    is a Tutoris a Smogon IRC AOPis a Tiering Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Castle Valetis a Past WCoP Winneris the Smogon Tour Season 16 Champion

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,669
    Hello Lady Alex,

    this is an excellent team, congrats on the leaderboard peak. I have some changes that I think could benefit your team, however; firstly, take 4 EVs out of Tentacruel's HP, and place them into either defense. The odd HP number will allow you to take less damage from entry hazards, which is important because Tentacruel is your Rapid Spinner and will be switching into said hazards more than any of your other Pokemon. Another thing about Tenta - I highly advise against dropping Toxic Spikes for Toxic. They are crucial in allowing your two set-up sweepers, Jirachi and Dragonite, to defeat some of their most prominent counters - Gastrodon and Quagsire, respectively.

    This team's lack of a solid Dragon-resist worries me. Jirachi shouldn't be taking powerful Draco Meteors and Outrages, since it's a late-game sweeper with no recovery. Dragonite appears to be the weak link; I'm sure that he does a very good job sweeping with Tentacruel removing the opponent's Stealth Rock, but he doesn't contribute anything to your team's synergy. You may want to consider a Ferrothorn in his place. It is one of the bulkiest steels in the game, which naturally makes it a great Dragon-resist, gives you access to all three entry hazards by packing Spikes, and fits perfectly on a rain team, whose Drizzle halves its fire weakness.

    Give these ideas a shot, I'm sure they will help you in some way. GL! luvdisc
  14. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,580
    The thing about Toxic Spikes, though, is that Gastrodon / Quagsire can easily switch-in after the 1st layer of Spikes and only be afflicted by normal PSN, which I highly doubt would be enough to wear them down since they both have Recover. Jellicent can also do the same thing, allowing it to spinblock Tentacruel all day. Toxic Spikes would certainly help other Jirachi counters, such as Blissey, Celebi, Hippowdon, and Ninetales, but Gastrodon, Quagsire, and Latias can escape it.

    If Lady Alex wants a more formidable Toxic Spiker, she should go with Roserade, which no Quagsire or Gastrodon would dare switch-in, unless they are ballsy. If she wants a more reliable Rapid Spinner, she should go with 3-atk & spin Starmie @ EB and with Grass Knot > Thunder so it can 2HKO both Gastrodon & Jellicent. Since Rapid Spin is more important to keep Duggy's Sash intact, I'm partial towards Starmie, which also makes the team much less vulnerable to Dragons. However, the team does lose its answer to Volt Switch and SD Lucario in the process.

    However, I do agree that although SubDDNite provides some great bulk and sweeping capabilities into 1 mon, it's probably the least important member in Lady Alex's strategy, and the most flexible part of the team to patch the team's weakness to Dragon. Ferrothorn's Power Whip and Spikes would certainly help in wearing down Gastrodon and Quagsire, too :d.
  15. Lady Alex

    Lady Alex I asked Mawile to not hurt me. I was betrayed.
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2010
    Messages:
    572
    Thanks for rating, BKC! I changed tentacruel's evs and am going to start testing ferrothorn over dragonite.

    I've been testing ice beam on politoed and toxic on tentacruel, as pocket suggested, and it works really well. Gastrodon has been much less threatening as a result, so I decided to go back to water pulse from psychic since I've been missing the confusion rate.
  16. Jazz

    Jazz

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2011
    Messages:
    42
    I'm not too sure how this team would play without dnite. I've been running this team alot lately, peaking at 1468 and most of my games have been won through it.
  17. Lady Alex

    Lady Alex I asked Mawile to not hurt me. I was betrayed.
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2010
    Messages:
    572
    I haven't had much success with ferrothorn =/. Having spikes support has occasionally been helpful, but, by having ferrothorn, I feel like I'm getting opened up to a lot more offensive pressure. Paralysis support hasn't been that useful since my team is quite fast anyway. I've also missed having dragonite as a late game opportunity to bring things back from the brink. I think that my gastrodon/quagsire problem has been mostly mitigated thanks to changing toxic spikes on tentacruel to toxic, giving me 3 solid checks to them (tenta, politoed, and trick).
  18. ITSU

    ITSU

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    218
    Hey lady Alex. Nice solid team here. I know you like rain stall, so this looks like a nice transition. I do suggest that you fit ice beam on your the politoed. You could also try to replace stone edge with substitute, and take out enough HP IVs to hit 201 HP. So that if your sash breaks you can still set up subs and drop down to 1 HP for the reversal. Also if you really want to kick your opponent in the nuts you can put endeavor over stone edge so you can really screw dragon it's and gliscor thinking for the easy revenge kill. We gotta battle again sometime too.


    Pandorumdrum
  19. Lady Alex

    Lady Alex I asked Mawile to not hurt me. I was betrayed.
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2010
    Messages:
    572
    Hey, it's been a while xD. I guess I could try substitute over stone edge. It usually doesn't matter, since most of the time I use any free turn it has to set up rocks, but I don't use stone edge very often anyway. Unfortunately dugtrio doesn't get endeavor lol.
  20. ITSU

    ITSU

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    218
    Oh i thought dugtrio did get endeavor. My bad.
  21. Ripamon

    Ripamon

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2011
    Messages:
    43
    For those who say that Dragonite is not as useful to the team, I have played multiple games where i was able to win(with Alex's team) with JUST that Dragonite. Furthermore, no matter how i looked at it, these games could not have been won with just any Dragonite set and spread.Id say more thought than was indicated was given to choosing the set and evs's, as well as the pokemon itself.

    The link below clearly demonstrates the usefulness of the DD sub roost Nite as an excellent stallbreaker as well as very capable late game sweeper. The teams perfect synergy was the only thing that allowed me to pull off a vital win.
    Whats more, the match in question was a tournament final, with the best players out of 32 pitted against each other.

    The link is presented here - http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-cOrbac-vs-Lady-Stacey--2012-02-13-1

    Lady Stacey is my alt, just in case you were wondering. The match was quite long, but if you would take the trouble to watch through the entire thing Im sure you would agree that its more useful than a spiking ferrothorn
  22. Jazz

    Jazz

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2011
    Messages:
    42
    the problem with that match is that your opponent was retarded and let you set up. However, it's a prime example of how once dnite gets momentum like that it's pretty much GG. Yeah like I said before, idk how you could play this team without dnite, the only other "muscle" this team actually has is Jirachi and Latios. This team seems tailor made for sub/roost dnite imo.
  23. AB2

    AB2 is an absolute ape
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2010
    Messages:
    415
    Hey this is a really cool team. Although there are a few threats that can cause you a pretty huge pain. For example, substitute + dragon dance gyarados is a pain for this team to face especially since it can set up for free against politoed or tentacreul. If you send in latios to break the sub after it dances more than once, then your entire team will be worn down by boosted bounce / waterfall. Gastrodon and other bulky waters are also sort of a pain in your side as well. They are able to easily come in and absorb a lot of the attacks on your team and proceed to simply annoy you by completely ruining the momentum that you create in this team. I encourage your to try ferrothorn over latios in order to remedy this problem. Although latios is your go to revenge killer, I think that ferrothorn would be of great use in this team. With ferrothorn on this team, you can prevent annoying threats like starmie, gastrodon, and substitute + dragon dance gyara from getting in your way. A set of spikes / leech seed / thunder wave / power whip, leftovers, maximum hp and special defense with a careful nature has the ability to be extremely effective on this team. Also, since ferrothorn has the ability to pack thunder wave, this contributes to your strategy with jirachi and dragonite by allowing them both to set up much easier and wear down your opponent.

    Another interesting option is to try running substitute over protect on tentacreul. This option was mentioned before and I agree to at least testing it because it gives you the ability to win versus ferrothorn in a one on one matchup. Toxic poisoning isn't the main focus of this team anyways, but it really comes in handy against threats such as virizion in that you will be able to easily stall it out regardless of the amount of boosts that it stacks up. Psyshock is also a pretty cool idea on jirachi over one of your attacking moves. This will help you win in calm mind wars against opposing calm minders such as reuniclus extremely easily, especially if you manage to get a paralysis or confusion along the way.
  24. Jazz

    Jazz

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2011
    Messages:
    42
    This team doesnt have any trouble against gyara, in fact gyara allows dnite to easily set up a +2 or +1/sub and win from there.
  25. LUST

    LUST
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winneris a SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2011
    Messages:
    964
    Hey

    This is an excellent Dark Horse RMT, your strategy is simply mind-blowing. Gastrodon is definitely the biggest threat for this team which was mentioned earlier. There is no easy way to fix that except for adding a Grass-type mon in Dragonite's place. I guess you could potentially Toxic it with Politoed but since it always packs Recover stalling it would be a problem. Gastrodon also spreads burn throughout the team which could hurt you in the long run. Ferrothorn and Virizion are both reliable options for taking down Gastrodon. Ferrothorn gives your opponent opportunity to set up which doesn't seems to match up your offensive play style where Virizion utilizes Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes support to eliminate threats for Jirachi. Thus, I would highly recommend replacing Dragonite for Swords Dance Virizion. A Work Up set serves almost the same purpose but it lacks power on the physical side which wouldn't be benefiting you whatsoever, Calm Mind variant wouldn't be ideal either since it makes you a set-up fodder for many mons like Volcarona, Bullky Swords Dance Scizor. Swords Dance variant allows Virizion to easily decimate many bulky Water-type mons like Gastrodon, Politoed, Rotom-W, Jellicent all major threats for your Calm Mind Jirachi sweep. SD boosts this musketeer's attack to beastly 558 where Virizion can then make good use of a very powerful stab Close Combat to destroy anything that isn't resistant or immune to it. Leaf Blade is it's secondary stab mainly used to destroy the likes of water and ground-type mons. Stone Edge is chosen over Hidden Power Ice because your team handles Gliscor easily and SE allows it to defeat Gyarados effortlessly. For the item, Lum Berry, Leftovers and Life Orb are all fitting options, all beneficial in certain situations.

    Swords Dance Virizion (open)
    Virizion @ Lum Berry / Leftovers / Life Orb | Justified
    Jolly | 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    ~ Swords Dance
    ~ Close Combat
    ~ Leaf Blade
    ~ Stone Edge

    For some minor changes, I second Pocket's suggestion for switching your current Tentacruel set to SubToxic variant, which allows it to cripple many threats like Lati-twins, Tornados on the switch-ins. Under rain it basically acts like SubToxic Gliscor which stalls the fuck outta your opponent. It also gives your insurance against potential status and leech seed which massively helps you out. On Dugtrio Sucker Punch is a great alternative over Stone Edge due to it's shaky accuracy. It can be used to deal with Pokemon such as Latios and to finish off weaken mons. Overall solid team and congrats on your rank. Good Luck!

    SubToxic Tentacruel (open)
    Tentacruel @ Black Sludge | Rain Dish
    Timid | 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spd
    ~ Substitute
    ~ Toxic
    ~ Rapid Spin
    ~ Scald
    Reversal Dugtrio (open)
    Dugtrio @ Focus Sash | Arena Trap
    Jolly | 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    ~ Reversal
    ~ Earthquake
    ~ Stealth Rock
    ~ Sucker Punch

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)