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Wishful Thinking

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Harsha, Nov 6, 2012.

  1. Harsha

    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Sep 18, 2011
    Wishful Thinking



    This is a team that I've used ever since Genesect was released into the OU metagame. It's reminiscent of the teams that were run during the old Dream World metagame, though of course Excadrill is no longer with us, so it has some key differences. I originally made it to test out Rock Polish Landorus, a set that swept me 6-0 a few times in Dream World when I thought it was nothing more than a gimmick. As soon as some people I was talking to brought it up again, I knew I should finally try it out, as it not only proved to be an effective sweeper against offensive teams, but it has the prowess to simply 6-0 most common sun builds. Needless to say, the team has probably been my most successful since the release of Black and White 2. I've won almost all the tournament matches I've played with it, losing only to hax or misplays on my part. I've also peaked at the top of Pokemon Showdown!'s ladder, but I don't really consider that too big of a deal considering the quality of most of the players I faced (I'm pretty sure that at least four of my opponents forfeited the second they entered the battle).

    I brought a tried and tested formula from back in the old Black and White era into this team. It's basically a high-powered sand team that can hold against many teams because of its defensive backbone. A few users showed me an amazing set to counter rain: specially defensive Rotom-W. After I saw this, I knew I needed to try it out, and I've probably used it on every team since (no joke). I have two bulky Water-types to help sponge rain hits (though one is not very bulky even with investment; however, it's not exactly meant to be my primary sponge). Additionally, I have sun's biggest counter, Heatran, and I carry Rock Polish Landorus, a set that's capable of 6-0ing almost any sun team provided I can get Stealth Rock up. I've found that while the team build isn't perfect, it covers most of the threats in the metagame. Possibly the biggest threat to this team is Terrakion, as almost any variant will give me a hard time. However, Choice Band Terrakion is easy to revenge kill, and Choice Scarf Terrakion is not powerful enough to break my team on its own. Lead Terrakion are also not very tough to face, especially because once they faint, I can simply spin hazards away.

    So yeah! There's really not much to this team. I just made sure I had a method of maintaining momentum through a VoltTurn core, a way to sweep effectively between Genesect and Landorus, and way to keep rain from straight-up demolishing me through some key members. There are certainly holes in the team but with proper prediction it's always possible to play out of them. Maintaining momentum is key with this team because I don't have enough of a defensive presence to switch into all hits. I tend to play it like a heavy offensive team versus common offensive teams, while I can use it as a balanced team against more defensive builds. I do have more defensive versions of the team with Hippowdon / Stoutland and Tyranitar / Garchomp cores that tend to take on hits better, but I settled on this variant because I really like all the offensive power it brings. The team name comes from my main ladder alt, wishful_thinking. I think I've done enough talking, though. Let's get to the team!

    The Team

    Tyranitar @ Choice Band
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 156 HP / 252 Atk / 100 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Aqua Tail
    - Stone Edge
    - Pursuit
    - Crunch

    Tyranitar is a pretty cool supporter for my team, even if the set doesn't look like a supporter. I use it to open up sweeps in the late-game for Landorus, and that's pretty much all I need from it. Sand damage is good against Pokemon that are equipped with Choice items, and it wears down Choice Specs Latios, Life Orb Latias, Choice Scarf Rotom-W, Choice Scarf Keldeo, and many others. One of the biggest assets for my team that Tyranitar provides is the ability to trap troublesome Pokemon that can hamper my Landorus sweep, such as Latios, Latias, and Celebi. They can all survive a Landorus Hidden Power Ice when healthy, so I decided that I'd like them removed sooner rather than later. Obviously, Pursuit is necessary for this case. It does major damage to Latios and Latias even if they choose not to flee, though against Celebi, I am typically more aggressive with Crunch. Besides, even if Celebi switches out, Crunch will hit nearly anything that's not a dedicated physical wall fairly hard. Stone Edge hits those physical walls extremely hard, though, so I don't really have to worry about those (seriously, it 2HKOes Skarmory after some residual damage). Of course, I have to make sure I don't miss with Stone Edge, and we all know how often Stone Edge hits.

    I've toggled between Superpower and Aqua Tail, but I actually chose Aqua Tail because ripping a hole in Hippowdon and Gliscor on the switch-in is awesome. Stone Edge 2HKOes Gliscor already, but with Poison Heal recovery and Protect, it's not a real 2HKO. Aqua Tail does massive damage to threats if I'm ever caught in the rain, and while that's fairly unlikely, it's happened before! Superpower can be useful if I think the opponent will bring another Tyranitar sand team, but that's pretty much a minor change because I'll be using Pursuit, Crunch, or Stone Edge much more anyways. The EVs allow me to beat out Skarmory so that I can smack it with Stone Edge quickly. If I play my cards right and don't get lucked, I can rid the opponent of a key wall and Spiker before I even need to get my hands dirty with Rapid Spin or special attackers. The opponent generally assumes that I'm running specially defensive Tyranitar and specially defensive Heatran from Team Preview, so I can typically beat out Deoxys-D leads if they try and Taunt me. If they have a hunch that I am carrying a Choice Band early, then they'll typically send out Terrakion, which can be a bit problematic. If this is the case, I'll just sac the Pokemon that does the least to the opposing team.

    Genesect @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Download
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Naive Nature
    - U-turn
    - Flamethrower
    - Ice Beam
    - Bug Buzz

    Genesect has been a staple on almost every offensive team since the advent of Dream World, and its usage has remained steady ever since its release (it's now number one in the usage statistics, unsurprisingly). The instant momentum it brings with U-turn is incredible for offensive teams, especially in conjunction with Rotom-W's Volt Switch. I don't really bring Genesect in on many attacks; instead I use it as a revenge killer. One thing you have to realize when you're using Genesect is that you can't overpredict or underpredict, you really need to analyze the situation. If you use U-turn on a +1 Dragonite because you assume it will switch to Heatran, it could be the difference between winning and losing. However, the opposite can happen, and you can end up hitting Heatran with Ice Beam. I am a bit more conservative with Genesect because I can revenge kill a Pokemon and then sac one of my own Pokemon the next turn, but if using a coverage move would give the opponent the game, I use U-turn and sponge a hit instead.

    Flamethrower is mostly for Ferrothorn, and I generally don't use it for any other Pokemon. Genesect already has a hard counter in Heatran, and I don't need to give it more opportunities to set up. I could have chosen Thunderbolt in its place, but Thunderbolt is mainly for Water-types that Bug Buzz hits hard enough, and Gyarados is already covered by Rotom-W. Ice Beam is for Dragonite, Salamence, and Garchomp.

    I've been switching around between Bug Buzz and Flash Cannon, and I actually use Flash Cannon quite a lot in tournament matches to prevent Choice Band Terrakion and other slow variants from ripping my team up. However, I see a lot of Deoxys-D teams on the ladder, and I know I can sweep in the late-game with Bug Buzz, so I use that move more when I'm playing for fun. The choice basically depends on what you want coverage against, though in a tournament environment I tend to see many more Terrakion than on the ladder. I chose the EV spread to maximize Speed and Special Attack, and while I know that U-turn is the most used move on Genesect, investing in Attack doesn't seem very appealing to me, especially when it may prevent Genesect from KOing what it needs to KO. The Naive nature lets me survive priority moves that could otherwise KO me because I don't need to settle for a Defense drop.

    Rotom-W @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 248 HP / 32 SpA / 228 SpD
    Calm Nature
    - Hydro Pump
    - Volt Switch
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Pain Split

    Specially defensive Rotom-W is probably my favorite Pokemon in this metagame due to its utility. I run a spread with 32 Special Attack to guarantee that I can OHKO Gliscor with minimal investment. I can also OHKO Thundurus-T in the rain after Stealth Rock, which is probably the only rain threat Rotom-W can't deal with exceptionally. Tornadus-T, normally a giant threat for sand teams, cannot do very much against Rotom-W due to the heavy investment in Special Defense (the Calm nature compounds this). While Leftovers recovery can be sufficient, I will often need Rotom-W to sponge random hits from Genesect, so Pain Split is often an excellent move to ensure that I can keep Rotom-W healthy throughout the match. I could have chosen a ChestoRest set to heal off status, but I honestly find that I tend to use Pain Split multiple times in matches, so I'd rather keep the set stable. By the way, to emphasize Rotom-W's sponging capabilities, it can only be 4HKOed, and even then that's not guaranteed. Superpower can't 3HKO either, so Rotom-W is a pretty safe switch-in. It does very well against Politoed too, but if I see that Politoed is defensive early on, I'll typically use Starmie as my switch-in instead so that I don't risk poisoning or burns.

    Hydro Pump is obviously a necessary move on this set, as it allows me to stop opposing Pokemon from setting up, especially opposing SubSD Garchomp. I use Will-O-Wisp sparingly against these threats because I don't want to risk allowing them to set up a Substitute. Will-O-Wisp is my best bet against physical attackers though, and if they reveal their item early on, I can burn them later on and make them a non-threat. Volt Switch is strictly for momentum, and it's extremely helpful against rain teams. Volt Switch threatens all Water-types, but opponents cannot switch in Ferrothorn safely for fear of Will-O-Wisp. For this reason, I actually enjoy facing rain teams, as they should have the advantage against me, but Rotom-W effectively nullifies that. I use Will-O-Wisp a lot against these teams to ensure that I can burn the Ferrothorn at some point in the battle, and if I don't, a lot of opposing Pokemon will be crippled. Rotom-W is also important because it serves as one of my Ground immunities, and it effectively beats Rock Polish Landorus if it's healthy enough. Use more Rotom-W, it's an amazing Pokemon in this metagame!

    Heatran @ Air Balloon
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Fire Blast
    - Earth Power
    - Hidden Power Ice
    - Stealth Rock

    Air Ballon Heatran has always been a favorite of mine, and with all the Dugtrio running around in the current metagame, it fits my team perfectly. While it can't reliably be my switch-in to Genesect (until opposing Dugtrio have been removed, of course), I typically let my own Rotom-W switch into Genesect's coverage moves, and my own Genesect can take a U-turn and then take the momentum. However, this is a last resort, as if I'm playing the game how I'd like to, the opponent won't be gaining momentum anyways. Anyways, because I am running Choice Band Tyranitar, I needed to put Stealth Rock somewhere on the team. I really like Stealth Rock on Heatran because Xatu cannot reliably switch in to block me, as Fire Blast wrecks it. The offensive power granted by Heatran lets me set up without having to fear the opponent gaining momentum. I can also set up Stealth Rock on Dragons that are locked into Outrage (or Earthquake, in the case of some Choice Band or Choice Scarf Dragons), and then kill them with Hidden Power Ice on the next turn if they do not switch. Hidden Power Ice doesn't really hit Latios too hard, and because I fear Surf, Rotom-W and Tyranitar are generally my switch-ins for it and Latias.

    I chose to make Heatran as offensive as possible, just like typical offensive Stealth Rock users. The Timid nature allows me to beat out Adamant Dragonite (people that run Jolly Dragonite are doing it wrong), and having Heatran as fast as possible helps out against lots of threats. Full Special Attack investment, even without the Modest nature, still allows Heatran to pack quite a punch. Air Balloon also helps against Rock Polish Landorus, as it is forced to use Focus Blast against me and risk the miss, though I can't really rely on that to win because Focus Blast still OHKOes Heatran. That's only a last resort situation though, as Rotom-W is a much better switch-in. One of the biggest reasons I chose Heatran is Flash Fire and insurance against sun teams. It checks all variants of Venusaur unless I lose my Air Balloon early on, as some people have began to run Earthquake and mixed Venusaur. However, Heatran is typically healthy against sun teams because Ninetales cannot touch it, Xatu fears it, Dragons have to rely on Dragon or Fighting-type moves (as Earthquake won't work), and typical sun spinners suck!

    Starmie @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Rapid Spin
    - Recover
    - Scald
    - Psyshock

    I chose bulky Starmie as my spinner because I really needed to rid the field of Spikes and Stealth Rock to keep my VoltTurn core and momentum intact. I don't want to lose a bunch of my health from repeatedly switching in and out of entry hazards, so I tend to always use a spinner. Starmie works best for my team because it takes on Terrakion better than almost any other spinner. After Terrakion reveals its set, I generally know what to send out to beat it. If it is a Choice Band set, I'll sac something to the incoming Stone Edge and then revenge kill it with Starmie. If it's a Choice Scarf set, it's much weaker, so I can again allow something to faint so that Starmie can come in, sponge a hit, and KO it. I will usually use Psyshock, but if my opponent has a Tyranitar or a Genesect in the midst, I can use Scald to hopefully snag a burn on them. The bad thing about Starmie is that even with the relatively heavy HP investment, it still is fairly frail. I don't rely on it to counter many threats except for the occasional Calm Mind Keldeo. Psyshock is key here because it hits the weaker Defense, so I don't need to worry too much about Keldeo's Calm Mind boosts.

    Recover is obviously to keep Starmie healthy, as I will often need it to come out quite a few times each match. A healthy Starmie is a good Starmie because it allows me to fully beat Terrakion. If I let it get too low on health, Choice Scarf Terrakion can come in and wreak havoc with Stone Edge. Leftovers recovery is not enough because Sand Stream from Tyranitar negates it. I chose the EV spread and debated between what I wanted to outrun: base 111 Speed threats or base 115. Ultimately, I realized that I wanted to always be able to at least Speed-tie opposing Starmie so that I could have the possibility to use Rapid Spin before they KO me. Additionally, there aren't any noteworthy base 111 Speed Pokemon now that the Therian formes have taken over. Outspeeding Choice Scarf Magnezone is a plus too, though smarter players are using Magneton instead so they can outpace Tornadus-T. Starmie is pretty much an indispensable member, and I consider it to be one of the very few good spinners in the OU metagame. Forretress, Tentacruel, Donphan, Hitmontop, and even Blastoise all simply open up way more holes than they fix.

    Landorus @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sheer Force
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Rock Polish
    - Earth Power
    - Focus Blast
    - Hidden Power Ice

    Landorus is the Pokemon I built the team around! Basically, the goal of this team is to weaken the opponent sufficiently in order to have Landorus sweep at the very end. It doesn't matter whether I lose one Pokemon or five along the way because as long as Landorus is healthy and the opponent lacks priority, Landorus can usually find a way to set up and outpace the entire opposing team. Setting Landorus up can be a tad difficult due to its relative frailty, but I can generally do so on weaker attacks, such as Pokemon locked into resisted moves, walls, and the like. Sadly, Focus Blast doesn't always like to hit the opponent, so you can't be too reliant on it to win the game. It's best to get Pokemon like Skarmory out of the way early on so that Landorus won't have to pray for a 2HKO in the late-game, especially when it has to deal with Focus Blast's accuracy. Of course, if you see a Ferrothorn or Air Balloon Heatran, you're going to need to cross your fingers, but these situations are exactly why I use the move in the first place! If you're using this set, you want to be using Earth Power as much as possible. It gets STAB, Sheer Force, and Life Orb boosts, and it's extremely powerful coming off of Landorus's surprisingly decent Special Attack stat. Hidden Power Ice is only for coverage, but it really is a useless move. It also forces Landorus to take Life Orb recoil, as it has no added effect.

    I've tinkered with Psychic in the place of Hidden Power Ice, but I really don't think Gengar is the biggest problem between Rotom-W and Tyranitar putting pressure on it. Of course, because I'm not using specially defensive Tyranitar, I can't really do much when I need to deal with Focus Blast. This is another reason why prediction is key! Dealing with threats that wall Landorus must be done early on, but surprisingly, the case is generally that Landorus isn't walled, but it's beaten by another team member. This comes down to the opponent's carrying a priority move, applying offensive pressure, and stuff like that. That's why momentum is so key, as you need to remove these threats early on before you can go to town with Landorus. I chose the spread and a Timid nature because I need maximum Speed, and Timid allows me to use Landorus against faster teams instead of having to carry it around like dead weight. While I really love the power granted by Modest, I think Timid tends to be a better choice. Like I said earlier, I tried a SubSalac Garchomp in this spot on a more defensive team with a specially defensive Tyranitar and a more defensive Heatran, but I ultimately chose Landorus because base 102 Speed without a boost won't sweep very effectively in this metagame, and even at +1 it's not incredibly fast.


    Like I said before, this has been my go-to team for most tournament matches. I know Terrakion is much more common in tournament matches than it is on the ladder, but I just have to play around it and find a time where I can effectively set up Landorus to sweep. I have no Rock resistance, but to fit one in I'd have to change up almost half the team. Like I said before, I've used a SubSalac Garchomp version that took Tyranitar on better, but I ultimately settled with Landorus because +2 Speed is great and it requires less support than Garchomp does. I've managed to use this to peak the ladder on Pokemon Showdown and the main Pokemon Online server (though neither peak says very much), and it has been pretty successful for me outside of rated battles as well. I hope you enjoyed my RMT, thanks for reading! I appreciate all rates as well! If you have a question about something that I didn't address, go ahead and point it out.
  2. Trinitrotoluene

    Trinitrotoluene Περαιτέρω φαίνεται για πάντα
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Jul 13, 2010
    DD MoxieMence > you

    Eh, I kid. It's been a while since I've had the pleasure of rating one of your teams, Harsha. This is an excellent team, and I'm glad you're using my favorite variant of Tyranitar (CB w/ 100 Speed EVs to speed creep Skarmory). However, there are a few threats that you probably have trouble dealing with, such as the all-too-common GeneTrio core and Terrakion. Also, despite what I put above this rate, Naive DD MoxieMence really does screw you over, since it outspeeds your main revenge killer and OHKOes the rest of your team once Heatran's Air Balloon is popped, which shouldn't be too difficult for any decent offensive team to accomplish. Of course, the average battler will use Naughty over Naive, so that shouldn't exactly be too much of a problem for you. To fix that, I'd recommend using Scarf Terrakion over Genesect. This gives you a suitable revenge killer for Therian Thundurus, Salamence, Volcarona, and opposing Genesect, all at the piddling cost of access to U-turn and a weakness to Water-type moves, the latter being covered effectively by Rotom-W and Starmie. A summarized list of changes can be seen below.

    Terrakion @ Choice Scarf | Justified
    Jolly | 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Close Combat | Stone Edge | X-Scissor | Rock Slide

    [​IMG] ----> [​IMG]
    Harsha, this an incredibly solid team. Good luck with it, and before I forget...[​IMG]'d!
  3. BKC

    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Tutor Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis the Smogon Tour Season 16 Championis a defending World Cup of Pokemon champion

    May 22, 2010
    You don't need max speed on Starmie, winning ties in the mirror match won't do you much good, especially when you've got Rotom-W to counter it. I'd drop the investment to 216 to outrun Gengar and then you can throw a few more EVs in Defense to help out a bit against Terrakion.

    Not once in all my matches using that Landorus set have I needed Timid's speed, whereas Modest's extra power is quite useful, so I'd try that out.

    I think SpDef Hippowdon would work in place of Tyranitar. Not only is Tyranitar a pretty awful mon in this metagame that doesn't do much besides set up sand and kill Keldeo counters, but Hippo also gives you a Rock resist, and in general a solid Terrakion counter. It's also a much sturdier weather inducer that stupid Sun teams can't just trap with Dugtrio, and it can also check the Therians with Ice Fang in the last slot. You've got Landorus' counters checked very nicely between Heatran and broken ass Genesect, so Ttar's trapping abilities won't be missed too much.

    With SR on Hippo, you can try some different options on Heatran, like Flame Charge, Will-o-Wisp, etc. I also think max speed on Tran is a waste, so I'd drop it to a benchmark and then add some extra bulk.

    Cool team, hope this helped
  4. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

    Oct 9, 2012
    I agree with what Bkc already said, anyway if you use hippowdown instead of tyranitar then use Roar on Heatran as your "filler" move, so that you can phaze out volcarona, which can be a problem otherwise.
  5. Stone_Cold

    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a defending World Cup of Pokemon champion

    Oct 19, 2007
    I suggest Charge Beam Hydreigon, add in that mon and the sky's the limit for you.
  6. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Jun 11, 2011
    Hey, great team man. I agree with BKC on the Starmie EV spread, something like 252 HP / 24 Def / 8 SpA / 224 Spe Timid grants you a little more physical bulk thanks to the Defense EVs, and the 8 SpA EVs ensure the unconditional KO on 4/0 Gengar with Psyshock. 224 Speed Timid is enough to outrun the odd Tornadus-I, as well as everything under it.

    Other than this, congrats for the awesome team, shame there's no importable for easier stealing Joking :p have fun with it!
  7. yee

    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion

    Jan 3, 2010
    Hey Harsha, not a ton to recommend but I would replace Tar's Band with a Scarf. It does even better against Lati@s and the improvement against Celebi is huge, CB is guaranteed to do jack to it while they have a huge tendency to stay in for a Crunch against Scarf. Secondly BW2 is so fast that having multiple scarfers is definitely a good thing, I personally just replaced my Band Tar with Scarf just because there's no point in extra power in this meta when there's nothing but offensive pokemon. I never thought I'd see a metagame so bad to the point where I'd do that but meh people are running 11 defense IVs on chomp these days. Your team doesn't really care much about it being set up bait for walls like Skarm when Rotom-W + Starmie easily weaken and defeat hazard layers. Lastly it happens to help you out a lot against Thundurus-T which is a significant looking weakness while adding things like Gengar to your Volt Switch + Pursuit kill list.

    I would run a Hasty Tar with Ice Beam / Crunch / Pursuit / Superpower. This covers all of the bases coverage wise and OHKOes Gliscor without a need for investment. There was some reason why I thought Ice Beam was particularly useful here but I've forgotten it, so I can only wish you good luck finding it. If Thund-T annoys you I'm happy to just recommend Stone Edge.

    Hope this helps.
  8. TGMD

    TGMD You are entitled to nothing
    is a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Nov 27, 2011
    Hey Harsha, amazing team! It's good to see more and more people realizing how good Specially Defensive Rotom-W is :)

    When testing BKC's suggestion of Modest Landorus (which I back up, because you really won't be bringing Landorus until it's time to set-up, so you won't miss out on the pre-boost speed, and it has a much better chance at OHKOing Venusaur after rocks, therefore a much better chance of 6-0ing sun), I suggest trying a spread of: 68 HP / 252 SAtk / 188 Spd. This is a spread Lavos Spawn posted in the early stages of CCAT - Mark III, and it works wonders. At +2 this spread allows you to outspeed: Timid Venusaur (sun), Scarf Lati@s, Jolly Stoutland (Sand), Scarf Tornadus-T (lol) etc. Overall, there's nothing in OU you miss out on outspeeding and the extra bulk is always nice.

    Anyway, I hope this rate helped and GL with the team! Luvdisc'd :)
  9. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Dec 22, 2004
    Eh, Landorus wants 298 Speed to beat Modest non-Scarfed Genesect or even 300 Speed to beat Modest Volcarona, and at that point, mine as well go the entire mile and go max Speed to speed tie with other Modest RP Landorus.

    Didn't expect anything less from Big H! Awesome team, mate.

    Lots of good rates, here, I personally suggest removing the choice item on Tyranitar for something less exploitable. A Tyranitar can be offensive without choice items, and it can still KO or lethally maim its Pursuit targets without CB's boost. Without Choice item, you don't forfeit momentum as easily, not allowing threats like Terrakion to exploit every time TTar is locked into Crunch / Pursuit. Chople Berry is always a good item, letting you check Gengar more efficiently. Lum Berry shield it from crippling burns from Politoed, Rotom-W, or Ninetales. Shed Shell would make Dug Sun / Rain team's life a living hell. Expert Belt can always provide extra power boost where needed most.

    Ofc you would want to alter the moveset to accommodate the power loss. I'd probably go with Crunch, Pursuit, Superpower, Fire Blast / Thunder Wave. Even with Adamant Nature, you still OHKO and 2HKO Forretress and Skarmory and Ferrothorn with ease, and you have Superpower for Ferrothorn (if for some reason it's raining).

    I'd go Rash on Scarf Genesect. Never really find myself needing the extra Speed, whereas the extra SpA can help bust through YacheChomp and sweep more with Bug Buzz. Alternatively, you can now afford to divert some SpA EVs (and maybee some Speed EVs) into Attack for a stronger U-turn.

    Oh yea, and give Genesect Thunderbolt please. I can see the old Rain Offense with Sub DD Gyarados giving you a hard time, because the only Electric-move you have is Rotom-W's Volt Switch. You can rely on Hydro Pump to break Gyarados's Sub, I guess, but you know it's gonna miss sooner or later, and then +1 Rain-powered Waterfall and its flinch rate would only add more salt to injury. Volt Switch -> Genesect's TB is such an easy way to check Gyarados than risking crippling Rotom-W, I don't see why you wouldn't do it (you already admitted that you don't use Flamethrower all that often, too). Granted SubDD Gyarados isn't all that common, but just wanted to mention an easy fix.

    I'd really consider giving Thunder Wave on Rotom-W. Against Ferrothorn you can simply Volt Switch out to Tyranitar or Heatran anyway. I'm only recommending this, because I see a large weakness in QD Volcarona on Sun teams. It can sac something to Genesect and proceed to set up on it. If the sun is up, it can even set up on Rotom-W or Starmie without much hassle, either. Just a bit of residual damage and +1 Bug Buzz KOs TTar, and offensive Heatran more often than not loses to Volcarona, even in the Sun (forget it if it has HP Ground). You have RP Landorus, but Volcarona can survive a hit and KO back; it may not even need to take a hit, since Timid Volcarona is faster than Modest Landorus.

    Thunder Wave Rotom-W basically make sure that QD Volcarona would never go above ground, and make it much easier for Heatran, TTar (esp with Shed Shell), etc to finish the job. If you don't want to remove Scarf Genesect for Scarf Terrakion, this would be the way to go.

    That's all I got to say; thanks for sharing your work of art, Harsha <3
  10. dragonuser

    dragonuser The only thing I look up to is the sky
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a defending World Cup of Pokemon champion

    Jun 7, 2011
    Hey there Harsha,

    This is a pretty great team and I don't have too much to comment on. The most noticeable weaknesses seem to be Sun + Dugtrio, Terrakion, and some variants of Volcarona. Hippowdon over Tyranitar does seem to be a very solid suggestion on paper (possibly the best), but losing the ability to Pursuit trap Pokemon that wall Landorus may cause you to not like that idea. Instead an option could be to run Shed Shell on Tyranitar. You can now lay hazards easily vs Sun teams and not have to worry about Dugtrio's trapping you and instantly losing the weather war. I do feel like Shed Shell has more merit here than on some other teams, as once the weather war for Sun is won Venusaur practically runs straight through you if the opponent has mixed Venu or Dugtrio. Running a Shed Shell on Tyranitar also gives you a decent bit of surprise factor and a lot more freedom vs many teams. I would suggest Stealth Rock / Fire Blast / Superpower / Pursuit as your moves on Tyranitar. I am recommending Superpower > Crunch so that you don't have another Pokemon Terrakion can come in free on and with Scarf Genesect some bulkier versions of CM Latias are not too troubling.

    With Heatran no longer needing to run Stealth Rock, I would recommend using Toxic as your last move. This can not only neuter Volcarona but you can also catch some bulkier walls on the switch, possibly letting Landorus have an easier time breaking through. Anyways, cool team man and GL.
  11. Harsha

    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Sep 18, 2011
    This is actually a change I've been considering because I think having a Choice Scarf user on every team with base 105 Speed or more is really a big deal. I'll give it a run and get back to you because I'm sure it will still be useful. I guess I'll miss U-turn threatening Latios, Latias, and Celebi and the momentum it brings, but it's still worth a shot. Thanks!

    I knew someone would suggest Hippowdon and I originally thought it would be terrible here, but now that I think about it Hippowdon can be useful. I'm more of a Tyranitar person because of Pursuit/Crunch but you're right in that Genesect can use U-turn to kill off the same targets. I played around with Modest on Landorus and it's definitely a good change, I didn't realize how fast it still was without the Speed-boosting nature. I'll test your changes soon and see how it goes man, thanks for the rate!

    Yeah I'll test it out man. I like Rock Slide usually because it helps immediately rid Volcarona, but Roar can be useful for SubSalac Terrakion and other Substitute users. Thanks!

    It's been like 10 months :'(.

    Yeah I'll test that out man, I haven't really seen any times Starmie would be useful with the extra Speed, though a lot more people are running Magnezone on DragMag so I might try and outpace that benchmark. Thanks for the rate!

    I don't know why I never thought of this actually, I've been supporting double Choice Scarf users forever and using a Choice Scarf Tyranitar helps against a boatload of threats. Definitely gonna test this change out, I don't think I'd be seeing any drawbacks aside from missing a 2HKO on Skarmory, but that's not even important with all my special attackers. Thanks!

    Oh that sounds efficient, I'll give it a run man. I'm not that competent with EV spreads xD. Thanks for the rate!

    Yeah I'm gonna be testing a bunch of Tyranitar sets lol. Definitely will try out a Chople Berry set (or maybe Focus Sash now that you've brought up those items) to check other Pokemon better. I usually run +Speed nature on Genesect because I like getting the Speed-tie on other Genesect (it's come in handy a few times xD). Thunder Wave on Rotom-W sounds awesome though, it's probably more useful against Latios, Latias, Terrakion, and stuff. I'll guess the only targets I'll miss are Ferrothorn and Tentacruel that try and stay in. Thanks for the complements man, lots of changes to try!

    Shed Shell sounds interesting because while I've never had problems with Dugtrio, it could probably trap Tyranitar if I play carelessly. I'll try it out man, it seems like a cool change (along with all the other Tyranitar suggestions xD). Running Toxic on Heatran could be pretty useful yeah, I'll give it a runt too. Thanks for the rate man!
  12. Jirachee

    Jirachee scootin
    is a Tournament Directoris an official Team Rateris a Super Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    RMT Leader

    Sep 24, 2010
    Congratulations to Harsha for winning this week's edition of RMT of the Week! Anyone who rates this team or have already rated it will gain points in the reward system.

    Good luck to all raters.
  13. Conduit


    Apr 13, 2012
    Harsha, great team and I enjoyed the originality to some extent. I recently played this same team on the PO ladder, though I doubt it was you, and I was able to cleanly sweep it with Sub Terrakion. The player using couldn't get a switch in at all without losing at least one of the members of the team. I suggest using either Landorus-T, forbid me for saying it, or running Scizor over Genesect as it does get you the priority filling in the role of Genesect slightly. In any case I'd suggest a bulky Landorus-T set along the lines of

    Landorus (Landorus-T) (M) @ Chesto Berry
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 196 HP / 40 Atk / 252 Def / 20 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - U-turn
    - Stone Edge
    - Rest
    - Earthquake

    This may seem somewhat of a gimmick set but I have tested this set out numerous times and it is quite effective as a Phsyical wall. For example...
    Show Hide

    252Atk Choice Band -1 Terrakion (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 196HP/252Def Landorus Therian (Neutral): 39% - 46% (151 - 178 HP).

    It isn't bad considering this calculation...
    Show Hide

    252Atk Choice Band Terrakion (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 252HP/252Def Sturdy Skarmory (Neutral): 50% - 59% (168 - 198 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    One of the most prominent walls in the OU tier doesn't fare as well as Landorus - Therian thanks to the Intimidate ability.

    Now if you would rather stick to the Rock Polish Landorus then there is the option of running Scizor despite having to sack one member of your team but nonetheless a more effective option to deal with Terrakion, in my opinion the biggest threat right now besides for Genesect.

    A simple band set would suffice...

    Scizor (F) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 SDef
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - U-turn
    - Bullet Punch
    - Superpower
    - Pursuit

    Just for some Ev nitpicks...

    For Rotom, I personally suggest running this spread because it allows you to neatly 2hko some variants of a specially defensive Jellicent which might cause a few problems and also allows a better use of Pain Split.
    EVs: 196 HP / 96 SAtk / 216 SDef

    Also, I think it would help to run more bulk on Starmie and less speed as the main Pokemon you will be outspeeding are Keldeo, Terrakion, and Gengar.
    EVs: 252 HP / 40 SAtk / 216 Spd

    So, I hope I helped with your team and once again amazing job! :)
  14. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude !
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Mar 15, 2012
    Hey Harsha amazing team you have here! Also congrats for winning week two of rmt of the week!

    So obviously this team is pretty solid so there i not much i can think about changing. However i do have a few minor nitpicks involving some of your pokemons ev spreads. Regarding your Genesect you could use an ev spread of 64 Atk / 252 SpA / 192 Spe> 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe this spread gives Genesect a little bit more attack investment to strengthen U-turn. Although you do lose some speed the only thing relevant Genesect speed ties with is apposing Genesect. You should never keep Genesect in on an apposing one anyway and with the combination of Rotom-W and Heatran you have Choice Scarf Genesect handeld pretty well. The speed evs lets you hit the next relevant benchmark, letting Genesect outspeed +1 Dragonite. Also i agree with quite a few team raters that max speed on Starmie isn't to useful. With Scald and Psyshock there is no need to speed tie with other Starmie because they resist both those moves. So 248 Hp / 44 Def / 216 Spe> 248 Hp / 8 SpA / 252 Spe is prefered. As BKC said the speed evs let you outspeed Gengar which is important to hit it with Psyshock and other base 110s. if you feel you don't need the defense evs you can move the 44 into special attack.

    Good luck with the team i hope i helped!

    Show Hide

    .64 Hp / 252 SpA / 192 Spe---> 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    .248 Hp / 44 Def / 206 Spe--->248 Hp / 8 SpA / 252 Spe

  15. Magma


    Apr 27, 2009
    Hey Harsha,

    Great team. I really like this Sand version of Volt-Turn-Trap. The team is obviously very solid due to all of the success you've had with it; however, as most raters already pointed out, there are a few holes to a couple of Gen 5 powerhouses like CB Terrakion, QD Volcarona, and SS Cloyster. I'll do my best to patch these up minor weaknesses, without messing up too much of your offensive synergy.

    My first suggestion is a complete role reversal between Genesect and Landorus, making Genesect the Life Orb Rock Polisher and Landorus the Scarfer. Landorus's trollish 101 base speed makes it a much better Choice Scarf abuser and now gives you a way to revenge-kill Volcarona without taking Pocket's excellent suggestion of Thunderwave over Will-o-wisp on Rotom-W. I'll admit, it hurt me to make this recommendation, especially knowing the amount of potential sweeps you'll miss out on thanks to the massive power drop. But on the flip side, Sand Force boosted Earthquakes and Stone Edges coming from the Scarf set are nothing to laugh at.

    Ok, now on to Genesect. At first I was going to recommend a mixed Rock Polish set here (w/ U-Turn, Iron Head, and Flamethrower), but after I thought about it, I came up with another idea. It's going to sound a little crazy, so bare with me... why don't you swap one metal bug for another and use Forretress here instead. Yeah, you do lose out on a ton of pure power with the switch, but you can still maintain momentum since Forretress also has a scouting move in Volt Switch. The single best thing about this swap is now you have a powerful wall to tank attacks from SD Garchomp, SS Cloyster, and CB Terrakion. You can chose to either hit these threats hard with Gyro Ball/HP Ice or steal momentum back with Volt Switch.

    Now that you have Forretress taking care of spinning duties, Starmie can be swapped out for a better option (two bulky waters are slightly redundant anyway.) Anything that can freely switch-in and force out opposing bulky waters like Jellicent and Gastrodon, as well as tank hits from Breloom (who's also a threat to your original team ATM) can work in this spot. Navi Celebi was the first thing that came to mind and as a bonus it can scout with U-turn. If Infernape becomes too much of an issue, Latias can work here as well.

    That's about it Harsha. I know my rate nerfed your two Special Sweepers to patch up a few minor holes, and sacrificing offense for defense is not always the best way to go these days (especially now that OU has become more of a "sweep or get swept" metagame), so take everything in my crappy rate with a grain of salt lol. GL.

    tl;dr (open)
    Choice Scarf Landorus > Special Attacker Landorus

    Defensive Forretress > Choice Scarf Genesect

    Navi Celebi > Fat Starmie

    sets (open)
    Landorus (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Sand Force
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 SAtk
    Naive / Jolly Nature
    - U-turn
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - Hidden Power [Ice] / Explosion

    Forretress @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SDef
    Relaxed Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Volt Switch
    - Rapid Spin
    - Spikes / Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Gyro Ball / Hidden Power [Ice]

    Celebi @ Life Orb
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 176 HP / 152 SAtk / 180 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - U-turn
    - Recover
    - Leaf Storm
    - Psychic/Psyshock/Hidden Power [Fire]
  16. Motagua

    Motagua El Ciclón Azul

    Mar 14, 2009
    Amazing team my old friend! :D Love it
  17. Gimmick

    Gimmick Electric potential

    Sep 7, 2011
    Hey hello hi Harsha!

    Did you like my beautiful alliteration; because I did. This team is obviously fantastic! I've always been a fan of Balanced Offense, and it's great to see it used in BW2 with all the hyper offense and heavy offense. The synergy is great, too; you can afford switching around. (Modest) RP Landorus itself (ironic considering it's your MVP, lul) can put in some work, however, if it manages to set up (like against every offensive team). There really isn't a "fix" to RP Landorus since it's just so good, but there are definitely ways around it. Everything but Rotom-W is OHKO'd (Starmie and Genesect have a small chance to live: 252 SpAtk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus (+SpAtk) Earth Power vs 248 HP/0 SpDef Starmie: 89.16% - 104.95% (31.25% chance to OHKO) 252 SpAtk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus (+SpAtk) Earth Power vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Genesect: 92.23% - 108.48% (50% chance to OHKO))

    I don't want to mess up your synergy, so I'd like to suggest a slight change on Rotom-W: Chesto Rest. Rotom-W is great at switching into weak to moderate special attackers to Volt Switch out and gain momentum. Constant switching will very slowly wear down Rotom, especially if it gets burned by Scald or Toxiced on the switch. This severely limits Rotom's switching potential if your opponent has a RP Landorus in their squad. If you fall below 50%, it's over. (252 SpAtk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus (+SpAtk) Focus Blast vs 248 HP/228 SpDef Rotom-W (+SpDef) : 51.49% - 60.73% (2-3 hits to KO)) No matter how much investment you run, Rotom-W will always be 2HKO'd by a Modest Focus Blast, so don't worry about running more SDef. Anyway, Pain Split is a rather unreliable recovery move and may not leave you healthy enough to combat Landorus or other Special threats. With a Chesto Berry + Rest (over Pain Split), you'd be able to switch into as many Scalds or Lava Plumes as you desire and not worry about being worn down by a Burn to a point where Landorus can take you out. As a plus, you may be able to fake the Choice item against a weary opponent (Volt Switch won't be doing much, so it's clearly not offensive). Overall, a Chesto Rest set heavily increases longevity as well as allows you to shrug off some status that may bother the poor washing machine. And finally, it helps a ton against opposing rain teams, especially Politoed, SubToxic Tentacruel, Tornadus(-T), and Keldeo (to an extent).

    I also agree with everyone else regarding the suggestion on Tyranitar: remove that Choice Band. I feel like a Chople Berry would definitely benefit you the most. Gengar becomes less of a nuisance while Landorus cannot OHKO with a Focus Blast. It also provides support against a bad prediction in a situation like a Keldeo trying to hit Landorus with Surf or something. Scarf Terrakion only has a small chance to OHKO, meaning you can remove a significant threat to your team immediately if need be. This also allows you to run Stealth Rock more easily, freeing up space on Heatran (I'll get to that later). It's Tyranitar. Everyone knows what it does. I'll suggest a possible set, though:
    Tyranitar (open)

    [​IMG] (F) @ Chople Berry
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 196 SDef
    Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Superpower
    - Ice Beam
    - Pursuit

    I just made this set up for your team, lol. 252 HP + 60 Def allows you to always live an unboosted Terrakion Close Combat (252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs 252 HP/60 Def Chople Berry Tyranitar: 83.91% - 99.5% (2 hits to KO)) The rest was dumped into SDef... to be a SDef TTar! Ice Beam always OHKOs (even 68 HP) Landorus as well as Gliscor and other Dragons (for the lack of Stone Edge). Although you lose Crunch, Pursuit can still harm Lati@s/Celebi and OHKO Gengar upon switching. And lastly, Superpower rounds out the coverage and allows you to OHKO Terrakion if it tries to Close Combat.

    And of course, this leads me to Heatran! With a new slot open, you can frolic in the opportunities (lol). From Dragon Pulse to Will-O-Wisp to Roar, the choice is yours. I would consider Roar to phase out Volcarona if it's brave enough to Quiver Dance in your face. But of course, I'd rather leave it up to personal opinion. It also helps against Sub Gyarados that tries to scare you out if you're feeling macho. However, I'd like to suggest a different item. Air Balloon is cool, but the main EQ user, Landorus, has the ability to OHKO you with Focus Blast. You outspeed many Gliscor with a Timid nature and carry HP Ice, so that shouldn't be a problem (unless you lose Rotom and want to switch in Heatran). EQ Dragonite is the only thing you miss out on beating, but it can be handled by Genesect since it most likely won't carry Fire Punch. Instead, try out a Shed Shell. Many people suggested Shed Shell on TTar, but Chople is just so useful to this team that it's hard to pass up. Shed Shell on Heatran, on the other hand, is a more direct answer to Sun. Instead of making sure you don't lose the weather war, this ensures Heatran will not go down, which is arguably scarier than losing the weather war in Sun's perspective. It also hides your item quite nicely since most Shed Shell Heatrans are Specially Defensive. And think about it: Sun would rather trap Heatran than TTar since TTar will slowly be worn down by a burn or maybe strong fire attacks. None of these affect Heatran--it can't be worn down by any status and easily switches into non-HP Ground Ninetales every time. The double switch into Dugtrio is prevalent in many Sun vs Sand games, so this will help tremendously.
    Final Heatran (open)

    [​IMG] (M) @ Shed Shell
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Fire Blast
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Earth Power
    - Roar

    Go with 2 Atk / 30 Def IVs for HP Ice so you don't lose the speed tie with other Timid Heatran since you did drop the Air Balloon. 2 Atk makes sure confusion from Tornadus-T does the least amount of damage while random Foul Plays will fail to dent you.

    And that's about all I have! Again, fantastic team; it's a really nice demonstration of good balanced offense in BW2. :o

    Summary of Changes

    • [​IMG]
      • Rest over Pain Split
      • Chesto Berry over Leftovers
    • [​IMG]
      • Complete change in EVs/moves/item
        • Set (open)
          Tyranitar (F) @ Chople Berry
          Trait: Sand Stream
          EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 196 SDef
          Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
          - Stealth Rock
          - Superpower
          - Ice Beam
          - Pursuit
          Refer to the body of the rate for the explanation
    • [​IMG]
      • Shed Shell over Air Balloon
      • Personal preference over Stealth Rock
        • Consider Roar

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