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DPP Ubers Wobbuffet and Groudon's SubSeed Machine gun! (Uber RMT)

Discussion in 'RMT Archive' started by Theorymon, Feb 14, 2009.

  1. Theorymon

    Theorymon You have a fever. I prescribe more dead angels.
    is a Smogon IRC SOPis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

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    The Team
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Introduction: This Uber team relies on the unorthodox strategy of abusing Jumpluff’s subseeding powers in the sun with support form Wobbuffet. This team may appear to be gimmicky at first, but it isn’t. This is because the team has been successful enough to get me up to #5 on the leader board. This team has several obvious weaknesses that shall be discussed in the conclusion, but I have been able to work around most of these weaknesses. Team raters, please note that there are 3 pokemon that can not be replaced; Groudon, Jumpluff, and Wobbuffet. This is because they are vital to pulling off this teams strategy.


    [​IMG]
    Deoxys-e @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Presure
    EVs: 6 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
    Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Spikes
    - Taunt
    - Superpower
    - Ice Punch

    I'm sure this is going to get a lot of criticism as a lead, but I have some specific reasons for using it. This Deoxys-e lacks Stealth Rock because often times, people use leads like Choice Scarf Darkrai to stop Deoxys-e. Its not the end of the world if I fail to set-up Spikes, but Stealth Rock is very important to this team, thus I can't afford to put it on Deoxys. A good thing about this lead is that thanks to many leads focusing on beating Choice Scarf Darkrai (like lum berry Diagla), I often can get 2-3 layers of spikes up. Vs. Darkari, I attempt to set up Spikes as a way to scout its hold item. If it has Choice Scarf and Dark Void misses, Wobbuffet can switch in and PP stall it to death. If it is slower than me, then I let Deoxys fall asleep and revenge kill with Palkia. Vs Choice Scarf Mewtwo, I let it Shadow ball me and switch to Blissey. Taunt is there to try and win a speedtie agaisnt an opposing Deoxys-e. If I win the tie, people often switch in Tyranitar or Rayquaza, which is what Superpower and Ice Punch are for. If I lose the speed tie, all I can do is switch in Palkia or Groudon to kill it. The main reasons I'm not using Darkrai as a lead is because he can't set-up entry hazards and Dark Void interfears with Jumpluff's Sleep Powder.
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    [​IMG]

    Groudon @ Leftovers
    Ability: Drought
    EVs: 252 HP/156 Atk/42 Def/60 SDef
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Dragon Claw
    - Stealth Rock
    - Fire Punch

    This is my Stealth Rocker, support Groudon. Groudon is very important to this team for a number of reasons. It provides the sunlight that makes Jumpluff so dangerous. If I screw up and Palkia dies, Groudon can revenge kill Rayquazas (this is very risky, Rayquazas do a lot of damage to Groudon). Most importantly, Stealth Rock is very important to this team. I replaced Roar with Fire Punch because despite Roar's usefulness, Forrtress is a huge threat to this team. The Evs were taken from the Strategy Pokedex.
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    [​IMG]

    Jumpluff @ Leftovers
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 188 Def/252 Spd/70 SDef
    Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Encore
    - Substitute
    - Leech Seed
    - Sleep Powder

    Jumpluff is the most important member on the team! Once I set up a Substitue (often thanks to support from Wobbuffet), something almost always dies. In the sunlight, Jumpluff reaches an insane 700 speed! Even if an oppent has Kyogre, most of the Kyogres die to the sub seeding unless they switch, wich means taking damage from Stealth Rock and Spikes most of the time. This has often caused pure Hell for most offensive teams I faced, as the Sub seeding + switching wears them down fast. Not many non-lead pokemon carry Taunt except for Mewtwo, so if Mewtwo switches in, I will put it to sleep. There are 3 reasons I use Jumpluff over Shaymin-S. First of all, sleep powder is very useful. Second of all, when its Sunny, Jumpluff will even out speed Choice Scarf Mewtwo. Most importantly, Jumpluff gets Encore. This ruins set-up sweepers like Darkrai when its sunny. In paticular, Jumpluff shuts down Rock Polish and Swords Dance Groudon, as Jumpluff still outspeeds Groudon after a Rock Polish, and Encores Groudon, meaning I can start another Subseed cycle. Even when the weather isn't on my side, Jumpluff still can be a pest, as 110 base speed is still very fast. The evs were taken from the strategy pokedex. They maximaze recovery from Leech Seed according to the page, but I will change the EV spread if there is a better one.
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    [​IMG]

    Wobbuffet @ Leftovers
    Ability: Shadow Tag
    EVs: 28hp/252 Def/228 SDef
    Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Counter
    - Mirror Coat
    - Encore
    - Safeguard

    Wobbuffet may seem like a bad addition to this team, as it focus on use entery hazards and Subseeding to rack up damage. This coudn't be further from the truth for a couple of reasons. First of all, Wobbuffet often switches in on pokemon like Lugia, and thanks to Whirlwinds negative priority, Wobbuffet often encores a support or status move. This not only gives Jumpluff a free substitute, but it also forces the oppent to switch! When I'm in a tight situation, I can also use Wobbuffet as a make-shift revenge killer. I can't do this too often, as Wobbuffet isn't invinciable. It may seem strange to make Wobbuffet bold instead of Calm, but I have found that strong special attackers like Choice Specs Kyogre and Scarf Palkia (in the rain) are too powerful for even Calm Wobbuffet to handle, but Bold Wobbuffet can use support Groudon's as Jumpluff set-up time via Encoring Earthquake, plus I have a small chance of surviving a Swords Dance dragon claw from Rayquaza. The Evs let Wobuuffet have max leftovers recovery, thus stalling Chice Scarf Darkrais locked into Drak Void is esaier.
    ---
    [​IMG]

    Blissey @ Leftovers
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 4hp/252 Def/252 SDef
    Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Wish
    - Protect
    - Seismic Toss
    - Toxic

    Blissey is important to this team for a number of reasons. First of all, If I get rid of the oppents physical attackers (people love to switch them into Jumpluff for some reason), and weaken Kyogre, Blissey will often wall entire teams with no porblem. Secondly, Wish support is increadbly useful for this team, as it make Wobbuffet into even more of a cruel bitch! Toxic is there to wear down pokemon like Kyogre. I have been considering putting Ice Beam over Seismic Toss, as this can hit Rayquazas who think they have free set-up time. I am also considering puting Shed Shell on Blissey because of a huge increase of Tickle Wobbuffet I have been seeing, though I really don't like losing leftovers recovery.
    ---
    [​IMG]
    Palkia @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Pressure
    EVs: 6 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
    Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Spacial Rend
    - Surf
    - Fire Blast
    - Draco Meteor

    Finally, Palkia attempts to patch up some holes while providing some sort of offense unlike most of this team. Palkia's main duties are to switch in to Kyogre's Water Spout and Revenge kill Dragon Dance Rayquazas. Palkia can also revenge kill other threats, like Nasty Plot Darkrai. Too be honest, I'm really not sure what the moveset should be, but this one has been working fine so far. I can't be mixed, as things like Rayquazá's Extreemspeed will screw me over. There is not much else to say here, Palkia just revenge kills certain problem pokemon.
    ---

    Threat List: Pokemon that are big problems shall be in red. all of them will be listed in order of usage. Please note that this threat list is based off my expereince in laddering with this team for a week. Because of this, some potential threats like Shiftery have been left out.

    1. Kyogre: I thought Kyogre was going to be the biggest problem for this team, but it has been pretty tame to be honest. Choice Specs is handled by switching in Palkia. Because of SR and Spikes, Kyogre can than be walled to hell by Blissey next time it switches in. The only set that has caused problems is a sub Calm mind set.

    2.Dialga: Dialga can be tricky to deal with, as it is quite unpredictable. The bulk up set is usally beaten by Groudon, and the special choice sets are beaten by Blissey. Also, all attempts to sleep talk are shut down by Jumpluff and Wobbuffet if they get in safely. The Choice band set is very difficult to deal with, I honestly have to let something die and revenge with Wobbuffet. Thank god CB Dialga isn't very common.

    3.Groudon: Most are Rock Polishers, which are dealt with By Jumpluff's encores. The Support set is made into set-up bait by Wobbuffet. The Para dance set is a pain in the ass, as Para hax on Wobbuffets part can be unforgiving.

    4.Darkrai:I just let lead Darkrais put Doexys to sleep, as sleep clause activates. Jumpluff encores any Nasty Plots. Too be honest, most Darkrais I fought were leads. I basicly just let the most useless pokemon at the time take the sleep, and ether revenge with Palkia, wall with Blissey if its locked into a move, or switch to Jumpluff if I predict a nsty plot while its sunny.

    5.Palkia:The main problem with Palkia is the mixed sets, as I have no real switch in for it. Special sets are walled by Blissey, and I revenge Bulk up sets with Scarf Palkia.

    6.Rayquaza:Oh man, this thing is a menace. The only thing that can stop Rayquaza is ether Palkia or Groudon, both are pretty shaky at it too. Mix Rayquaza is a bit easier to deal with, as I don't have to be dealing with bossted attacks. Thats not saying much though. : (

    7.Mewtwo:Mewtwo can be a pain in the ass. Taunt and Substitute sets cripple Jumpluff, and the walling sets are unbreakable by my team. Despite this, Mewtwo often switches in on Jumpluff, so it isn't that bad most of the time.

    8.Lugia:Wobbuffet makes Lugia's life a living hell. In fact, Lugia really helps my team because Wobbuffet makes him set-up bait.

    9.Scizor: While Scizor can be tough, Palkia can revege him quite well and Jumpluff can encore a bullet punch, which means Wobbuffet often revenge kills it.

    10.Blissey:Blissey despises Wobbuffet's encores, and Jumpluff can make it into a heling machine thanks to the high HP.(Jumpluff isn't a good switch in though) Groudon aslo hurts it quite a bit with Earthquake.

    11.Deoxys-A: I don't have a single safe switch in for Deoyxs-A. My only way of neutring it is revenging with Palkia.

    12.Garchomp: Choice Scarf Garchomp does alot of damage to this team. My main way of dealing with it is revenging with ether Wobbuffet or Groudon.

    13.Giratina: Giratina has been almost a non issue. Wobbuffet encores sleep talk, Palkia can kill off a weakend one, and Jumpluff makes its life a living hell once it gets in thanks to encore and subseeding.

    14.Deoxys-e: All the ones I have seen were leads, only the Hax gods decide on this one thanks to speed ties :D

    15.Latias: Latias is walled to hell by Blissey and can be revenged by Palkia when its low on health.

    16.FORRTRESS!:There is a reson why "Forrtress"" is in caps! This is because I fear this thing more than Specs ogre and Rayquaza combined! Forrtress not only can spin away my entery hazard, it also lays down Toxic Spikes, which devestates evrything but Jumpluff. Forrtress is the pokemon I fear most, and has costed me more wins than any other Pokemon. Thanks to now having Fire Punch on Groudon, Forrtress might not be as much of a problem. Will update once I test this out.

    17.Tyranitar: Groudon man handles most Tyranitars, althoguh this team hates sandstorms.

    18.Wobbuffet: Opposing Wobbuffet's can be a bastard. They effectivly destroy Blissey and Groudon with Tickle. Jumpluff can put it to sleep, but my team otherwise hates Tickle fett.

    19.Metagross:Groudon has always kicked its ass, never once have I seen a Choice Scarf Metagross, although that could be revenged by Palkia.

    20.Giratina-O: Its known as the stall killer for a reason, its hard to stop the Calm minder. What I usally do is switch in Jumpluff if I suspect it to be a Calm minder, and Encore. Mixed sets seem like they would kick my ass, although I haven't seen any to be honest.

    21.Mew: While baton passing Mew can be a bitch, I have stoped them with Jumpluff in the sun every time,

    22.Jirachi: Although Groudon doesn't like being poisned, Earthquake hurts. Palkia can Fire Blast it, and if I predict right, I can counter a U-turn via Wobbuffet.

    23.Latios: Blissey has beaten this thing every time, I haven't seen a single mixed set.

    24.Brongzong: Wobbuffet has made this thing into set-up bait almost every time.

    25.Shaymin-S: There is one set that gives me alot of problems, the sub seed set. Jumpluff can't do a damn thing about it, thus Blissey is my only hope : (

    26.Celebi: Thanks to the grass type, it can't be leech seeded. It can leech seed Blissey, wich means I have no cahnce of out stalling it. Palkia and Wobbuffet seem to work most of the time though.

    27.Deoxys-D: I haven't seen a single one, lol

    28.Heracross: Heracross is a pain, but most are put to sleep while Jumpluff is under a sub, thus all Heracross does is break Jumpluff's sub thanks to Choice Scarf. Can be revenged by Palkia.

    29.Gengar: Haven't seen a Gengar in a month.

    30.Heatran:While I haven't seen any Heatrans, the sun might make him a powerful threat.

    31.Ho-Oh: On its own, Ho-Oh doesn't do much. But my arche enemy, Forrtress is oftem with it. when there is no SR, Ho-Oh is a nasty sweeper that only Palkia can stop, and Ho-Oh has great Special Defense. Thank God I have seen only four of these.

    32.Manaphy: In sun, Blissey often Toxic stalls it. but if its raining, It becomes a nightmare to take down.

    Conclusion: Yeah, this team is very light on the offense, and a lot of pokemon are very nasty to it. But, some of them are able to be worked around. I have been thinking about makeing Groudon into a rock polisher, but than SR would have to go on something else. Overall, despite this team being very flawed, it has been extremly sucsessful and had gotten me up to #5 on the ladder (#6 as of now), so I must be doing something right!
    Edit: made the changes suggested by darknessmalice.
  2. Garganator

    Garganator

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    I know that team well and Jumpluff is really a bitch to take down without Kyogre or TTar to change weather. Anyway, it's hard to replace anything here to be honest as every single member here fills some niche which makes this team really good. Maybe you should think about replacing ScarfPalkia for ScarfChomp, but Chomp must have Fire Fang. Garchomp lures easily Forry and with sun it would hurt it, as I see here that Forry is more then troublesome here. And Garchomps slightly higher speed helps sometimes alot. And Garchomp has easier time in revenge killing Giratino-O, especially CM versions.

    I guess that's it - it's really hard to replace anything here without destroying main core of this squad. Anyway it's really solid team. Cheers.
  3. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    I remember this team. Probably the longest Uber battle I've ever had.

    You may want to make Palkia mixed, to take on Blisseys and whatnot. I can't see any real use for two high-powered special dragon moves.

    Other than that, nothing really.
  4. Matthew

    Matthew I love weather; Sun for days
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    This team is so well balanced I feel that if I suggest one thing, the entire team would be ruined to be honest. I would like to suggest Scarf Dialga for this team:

    Dialga @ Choice Scarf
    Timid Nature
    252 SpAtk / 252 Spe / 6 HP
    - Draco Meteor
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Fire Blast
    - Thunder

    Now Thunder may be strange to have on a team that relies on the sun, but I do believe that it is necessary to have to help battle Kyogre. I would say to replace this over Palkia, but then your team is weak to Specs Kyogre, so anything I seem to suggest is wrong. This will help handle Swords Dance Rayquaza which pretty much can take down your team.
  5. Luxormaniac

    Luxormaniac

    Joined:
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    Theory, this is downright Insanity. If Groudon and Jumpluff are the core of this team (which they are), and your hated rival is Forretress (which it is), and your team is too finely balance to mess with any one thing (which it so poetically is) then the only thing to do is rework from the ground up, and hope I don't rip off this team totally.

    Perhaps you should become the world's greatest hypocrite and run your own Forretress. I'm no great team builder, but Forretress could definitely earn you a "dang" from your foes. Toxic Spikes would totally make your team, along with Jumpluff. Lugia could avoid enemy Tspikes as well as help stall. Bliss is god (*good). I think I'm essentially just advising you to turn this into a stall team. May I not be struck by lightning for my evilness.
    I apologize for the exceeding vagueness.
  6. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
    is a Tiering Contributor

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    Change Wobbuffet's EVs to 28 HP / 252 Def / 228 SpD. It gives Wobbuffet maximum Leftovers Recovery and will aid it in taking physical hits better. With your current EV spread, Bad Dreams deals more than twice the damage healed by Leftovers. Wobbuffet makes an excellent switch-in to a Scarf Darkrai locked into Dark Void. With Safeguard, it can easily stall Darkrai till it kills itself with Struggle. Max. Leftovers recovery means Wobbuffet should have a bit more HP at the end of this.

    Blissey's EVs should be 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SDef. The HP EVs make very little difference on Blissey thanks to her ridiculous base 255 HP stat. You barely lose any physical durability, and you gain more special durability than the physical durability that you lose. This is very important when considering that most Uber threats attack from the special spectrum, and Groudon and Wobbuffet are already better suited at taking physical attacks than special attacks.

    You are right; Forretress can screw up this team badly. Not only does Rapid Spin remove entry hazards, it even removes Jumpluff's Leech Seed. I recommend Fire Punch over Roar on Groudon, because he is a massive threat. Including Giratina on your team will require a complete team revamp; he can't fill in the roles of any of your pokemon, and leaving out one of them will create major team problems. Roar is only an unnecessary luxury, and it does little to suppport your team goal of sweeping with Jumpluff.

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