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Wonder Launcher

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Blazen, Oct 4, 2010.

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What do you think of Miracle Shooter?

  1. It's a great addition, I hope it becomes standard.

    38 vote(s)
    9.0%
  2. It's a great addition, but I want it separate from the main metagame.

    162 vote(s)
    38.6%
  3. Not sure, it needs to be tested before I can judge it.

    98 vote(s)
    23.3%
  4. I hate it, but don't see any harm.

    19 vote(s)
    4.5%
  5. I hate it, keep it away from my metagame.

    103 vote(s)
    24.5%
  1. King Yoshi

    King Yoshi

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2009
    Messages:
    54
    I mean, obviously this isn't going to work for Little Cup. Let's be serious here, Potions every 2 turns are going to cause games to last almost forever.

    But in the regular metagame I'm seeing no problems with this neat, new feature.

    People trying to stall for X+6 can get raped by phazers and Scarf Ditto, and Full Revive doesn't replenish your PP, so games aren't going to last as long as some people are thinking.
  2. Veedrock

    Veedrock

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2008
    Messages:
    2,780
    Kygore is not balanced in DDP OU just because both people can use it. His logic is correct, but the argument doesn't quite work for a +6 boost; if both Pokemon are at +6 (one Def one Atk), a critical hit is quite literally game over for the staller.

    I don't like the sound of this mechanic, but it'll never become standard so I don't have to fret over it. I can imagine it'd be a bitch to program too.
  3. Ryanide

    Ryanide

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2007
    Messages:
    300
    I always loved the idea of being able to revive pokemon. It will encourage creative teams that have their strategy based around a certain key pokemon or pinpoint. Being able to revive important members would allow some room for error. Because let's face it - pokemon is a very random game. Unlike oh...a fighter...it often comes down to luck.
  4. Not Scicky

    Not Scicky

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2007
    Messages:
    2,310
    Quick guys run.

    It's STALL.
  5. Ryanide

    Ryanide

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2007
    Messages:
    300
    You can't use a selectable pokemon like kyogre as an argument here, because Kyogre is not a set of rules that both players are forced to comply to (and are given equal benefits from) if they wish to battle in this style.

    Opponents also have no way to know you will use Kyogre on your team. But if you're both agreeing to go with Mystery Shooter, then it doesn't come down to a matchup to decide who gets the advantage. Both players do.
  6. King Yoshi

    King Yoshi

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2009
    Messages:
    54
    I think you're using the word "balanced" in the wrong context.

    Kyogre isn't balanced if both payers can use him, but the match is balanced if both players have a Kyogre on their teams.

    Same goes for this. It's balanced because both players have full access to it the entire time. If players could only use it some of the time, and one player could used it while the other couldn't then yes, it would be unbalanced.

    In short, tiers don't apply here, your point is moot.

    Edit: Ryanide said it better and with better grammar.
  7. Syberia

    Syberia [custom user title]
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2005
    Messages:
    5,040
    I hope this is not allowed as part of standard rules. I don't think anyone wants to see battles that come down to whose Forretress runs out of Rapid Spin PP first due to everyone abusing stall because it's the type of team likely to stick around long enough to get the Max Revives and Full Restores. And then when you finally manage to take something down, it's right back at full health again.

    Or better yet, run 5 stallmons and an Infernape or Luke or something. Waste turns until you can give your one sweeper +6, and go to town.

    If it's offense vs. offense, whoever has the correct sweeper out on turn 13 is probably going to win.
  8. Critical_Hax

    Critical_Hax

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2008
    Messages:
    136
    I wouldn't make statements concerning Kyogre lightly, unless you've played a lot of Ubers. Having Kyogre on both Uber teams (lets face it, its usage is higher than even Garchomps in OU during DPP), does not make it balanced. Good luck finding a Kyogre counter that can't be beaten by one of its common sets. (closest you'll come without specialising is probably a 112 SpD Latias, which is still slightly specialized since the 112 spare EVs generally should do into HP). Simply, Kyogre arguement doesn't apply here, you're point is moot.

    Similarly, good luck finding a way giving something +6 will stop you losing. If I give my Lucario +6, he'll pretty much ES anything that doesn't resist it, and I'm willing to bet with some entry hazards, anything faster less bulky than heatran which resists it will be OHKoed. Sure, you have a ScarfTar to stop me, but you have to wait 2 turns to revive it because I already killed it, during which time, I can dent the rest of your team. That being said, good luck beating my +6 Rampardos with your Scizor dead. Stockpile Hippo would be a nightmare to kill at +6 SpD, until you can revive something with Toxic (if you have it) and worse still, you'll only need the +3 since Stockpile helps you anyway.

    Regardless of how abusable I think this Miracle Shooter is, the fact remains the only way to determine if it is broken or not is to test it. If you think of it, its basically the Ho-oh in OU argument. Its potentially broken, but we'll never know unless we test it. Similarly, Ho-oh would have no shot of being in OU if SR didn't exist, so arguably, an X-item clause could keep Miracle Shooter from being broken. Realistically, other than +6 (except maybe the +3), the next best effect is max revive, but granted that games will most likely into Revive Chicken (i.e. if I revive something, you'll just revive your check), it doesn't seem too broken.
  9. Melfice_Cyrum

    Melfice_Cyrum

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2009
    Messages:
    23
    I think this is an interesting mechanic. It will probably be a royal pain in the ass to program in, but it's still something new to add, a fresh type of metagame, like triple battles and rotation. It might not be standard, sure. I can't see a reason not to include it, assuming it can be programmed in at all.
  10. GtM

    GtM

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2009
    Messages:
    717
    Cradily is going to be an absolute monster in sandstorm with those free X items, unless there's another option that can be used to delete the opponen't bonuses (I think that flat call only removes your own) Likewise, Metagross will be boss thanks to Clear Body blocking any attempts to decrease its stats.
  11. Soda

    Soda

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2009
    Messages:
    114
    It would be cool option to have, but I wouldn't want it for the main metagames and junk.
  12. Blazen

    Blazen

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    79
    Something to keep in mind about the X items. If I remember correctly they wear off after a certain number of turns. They are also still susceptible to Phazing, and forced switch outs.
  13. Bubble Head

    Bubble Head

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2010
    Messages:
    242
    i never want to turn this thing on -_- i'll still go with wifi battle without items
  14. Wafflez

    Wafflez

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2010
    Messages:
    413
    This will most deffinetly be not allowed in my oppinion becuase lets face it this is just stupid.All you would do is Protect all day and then just revive again and do the same.But i suppose a test is in order as these "Predictions" we seem to make even as logical they may seem at the moment generally have a high failiure rate.
  15. LightningLord2

    LightningLord2

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2009
    Messages:
    158
    I'd rather have this than the Dragons, SR and Scizors making stall nigh-impossible.
  16. Blazen

    Blazen

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    79
    Why do so many people seem to think that stall is some be all end all tactic that will break everything. First, N00b Lyf3, you can't just protect all day. Protect doesn't work like that. With Dragon tail, and new huge offensive threats you either need to be equally offensive, or purely rely on super tough walls. If you wait 12 turns for that x attack 6, then your opponent will likely see it coming and have a good counter, or bring in his own X speed 6 to punish non priority attacks.
  17. Treadshot A1

    Treadshot A1

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2010
    Messages:
    1,253
    EDIT: Nevermind. I did miss something.

    Still, to stall for 12 turns is cheap if nothing else, and then the flaw in this strategy:

    On turn 12/13: Switch in the sweeper pokemon. Opponent attacks (NVE because you wouldn't switch your Sweeper in against something they are weak to)
    Next turn: Use 6 X-items. Opponent attacks again (they wouldn't switch, very few things can wall a +6 poke). Likely this time will be neutral damage, lest you switch in against something with only one attack, which is unlikely.

    So you have to take a NVE attack and a Neutral attack. Coming off a decent attacker, and that leaves you at probably <50% health. Not too much of a problem, i can use something with Priority/faster than you to finish you off.

    That said, i still don't like this option, and will probably turn it off.

    P.S. I still think that Mischievous Heart + SD/Nasty Plot/etc. will be more effective than this.
  18. TacoBot

    TacoBot

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2008
    Messages:
    86
    You get to +6?

    I stall out 2 more turns by hook or by crook, activate my trap card, and Revive Ditto to copy your sweeper and destroy your team. Bonus points if at least 1 of your Pokemon are KO'd.

    I bitchslap your sweeper with whatever I have out, then I switch to Scizor/Breloom/priority user and priority your +6 sweeper into blissful oblivion.

    It really isn't that bad, unless like Zuruzukin gets +6 Speed or +3 Attack/+3 Speed after using Amnesia and Bulk Up then proceeding to destroy everything with Drain Punch, or something of similarly massive bulk (coughSnorlaxcough).
  19. Wynought

    Wynought

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2010
    Messages:
    240
    Did someone up there just diss Stall?



    Oh no you didn't...
  20. OmegaForte

    OmegaForte

    Joined:
    May 9, 2010
    Messages:
    806
    I just find this pointless. Sure, back as a kid I wanted this sort of thing. It's just going to make battles annoying as ever. (stall or not)
  21. Azure Demon

    Azure Demon Guest

    Say that when a +6 Terakion sacred swords your + 6 wall to hell and back. then imagine you get a burn on it after a missed stone edge or better yet you get a sleep powder on it now you can bring in your sweeper. But yet as you do you see a full restore pop up and your status effect gone along with all of your chances at winning.

    Everyone here in favor of this are complaining because the new generation brought us great stall breakers in ou, even the king of stall breaking salamence back to us. All I can say to those people is that just because you feel this will assist your playing style and benefit you more is not a just reason for this to be made viable in standard play. Also let's say a scarfed pokemon now they can even setup as well they may lock themselves into a move but since the miracle shooter isn't an attack they are free to keep slaughtering things at an astounding rate especially when the pokemon gets a +2 boost from the shooter that seems a bit much don't you think
  22. Shao

    Shao

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2010
    Messages:
    7
    We shouldn't be considerating Ditto(read: dream world) yet.

    I say no for Miracle Shooter for the same reasons Syberia has pointed out.
  23. Ryanide

    Ryanide

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2007
    Messages:
    300
    Once again, any strategy your opponent can use with Miracle Shooter, you can use too. So suck it up.

    Think the game will degenerate into stall? Then be creative and center your team around stall-breaking. Don't you remember in the main game that every time a gym leader used a potion, that was always a good time to get off a stat-boost move and then proceed to hammer them for it on the next turn? Everything you do with Miracle Shooter still takes up a turn to perform, and can't just be spammed endlessly due to the point system.

    If you're so scared of opponents running protect/fly/dig whatever to try to stall for turns, then pack pokemon with earthquake and thunder, feint, or use pokemon who stall yourself. Every time your opponent stalls, you also get a turn towards using items as well.

    People are just whining and complaining about broken stuff when they totally forget that these rules effect both players simultaneously. Miracle shooter will only promote longer, more exciting, and intense matches, with down-and out pokemon returning from the sidelines for a second shot in the spotlight due to revives.

    More options, more strategy.
  24. Elliot Gale

    Elliot Gale

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2007
    Messages:
    88
    I think this is worth trying. Don't be so quick to spit on it; it should be tested to see if they really "did it wrong" or not.
  25. ChaosBladeDC

    ChaosBladeDC

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2009
    Messages:
    2
    TrainerA used XAttack 6!
    TrainerB's Pokemon used Haze!

    12 Rounds for nothing I'd say.

    Also, you stall 12 rounds, setting up +6 Attack with SD takes 3 rounds. Scizor will make you a very sad Panda I guess.

    If you have a Problem with items use Embargo lol

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