1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Would we want a Stealth Rock suspect test? [Read #196]

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Kidogo, May 31, 2013.

?

What do you think about a SR suspect test?

  1. SR should be suspected and is most likely broken

    90 vote(s)
    17.8%
  2. Could be useful, even though SR might not broken

    165 vote(s)
    32.6%
  3. Probably not worth it, even though SR might be broken

    59 vote(s)
    11.7%
  4. SR should not be suspected and is most likely not broken

    192 vote(s)
    37.9%
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Sapientia

    Sapientia Weißbier - das Gebräu für wahre Helden!
    is a Community Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2008
    Messages:
    1,748
    This is anyways the most ridicolous argument I've ever heard.
    With this logic, we should not be discussing here

    I don't really think SR are "op", because hazards can't really be op. But in fact they are centralizing and have a major impact on the metagame. No one can tell us, if this impact is good or bad, so I would not mind testing it, but I don't think, that this is really needed.
  2. Living So Zambian

    Living So Zambian formerly VN.
    is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2011
    Messages:
    999
    i'm sorry it sounds 'ridicolous', man :pirate: maybe i worded that badly but how does that constitute to us "not discussing here"

    i agree that sr isnt op but integral means "essential to completeness", and we've already seen 3 complete metas in past gens played without sr lol so surely it isn't essential
  3. Meru

    Meru
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2005
    Messages:
    1,099
    Honestly though, curtains has a point. I feel like those wanting a SR suspect test don't think it's broken, they're just itching for change to break out of a stale metagame. To test SR would change pretty much every facet of BW OU, UU, RU, and NU in a way that would probably take a year just to stabilize.
  4. Sapientia

    Sapientia Weißbier - das Gebräu für wahre Helden!
    is a Community Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2008
    Messages:
    1,748
    Sorry, if you got me wrong.
    I meant the fact, that we shouldn't say X says Y, so that's true. We could just let Bloo/KG/we discuss, if that's how we discuss
  5. KurashiDragon

    KurashiDragon

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2008
    Messages:
    828
    I honestly don't think it's fair for the pro-suspect side to be generalized like that. I cant speak for anyone else but I honestly believe that Stealth Rock is unhealthy for the metagame. It's so restrictive to the types that are weak to it. So many pokemon have a chance at changing tiers if this one move were gone. I do happen to think the metagame is stale but that's not my reason for wanting to suspect Stealth Rock. It is one of my reasons for going after drizzle however. (That and IMO it's broken as all hell -_-)
  6. Meaty Man

    Meaty Man

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2013
    Messages:
    66
    Okay, put it this way. I have only now been playing competitively for 5 months. However, in that time I battled predominantly OU and have felt the fury of Stealth Rock to its fullest extent. With that said, I cannot put it either way with utmost confidence, however I feel that a suspect test is the best way to go. I have used Volcarona (and still do in Smogon Doubles) and doing so has had its ups and downs. Regardless of the usage of Stealth Rock in the match (which, by the way, I have never felt the need to use) Volcarona has done just fine.

    In conclusion, yes, I would love to see a SR suspect test. Thankfully, it doesn't feature much in Doubles but it basically plagued every other tier I played in. Of course, as I previously stated I've only been associated with Pokemon for the current generation and I have never been remotely entertained by the possibility of a weather team, or the idea of wasting a moveslot on SR or Rapid Spin. That's why I want to see how the rest of the players, as well as the metagame, adapts to not having the luxury of potentially cutting an opponent's HP in half on each switch.
  7. cjrocker

    cjrocker

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2012
    Messages:
    369
    For the record I actually never said that and have no idea why my name is there. I agree with you 100% though.

    I'm curious, for those who want the ban, is it really worth it? At this point the Gen V metagame has five or so more months before Gen VI arrives and makes the current metagame obsolete. Sure, people will still play it, but it's more likely these are people who already enjoy Gen V, with or without SR. If we do decide to ban it, we have a very short amount of time to deal with a lot of drastic changes before October when -let's be realistic here- few if any people will stick around while the majority is toying with everything new that Gen VI will bring. Then there's Smogon Tour, etc., which screws things up even more because people will be forced to relearn an old metagame. Do we have the time and resources to fix a metagame nearing the end of its run after such a drastic ban? And if you believe that we do, is attacking SR really the best use of that time?

    Meh. If the council is divided on weather, which is far more suspect-worthy IMO, then I wouldn't have any hope for an SR suspect test. A ladder without SR, however...
  8. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Certified Lumberjack
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2012
    Messages:
    1,577
    God damn it. Fine, I don't really care one way or the other if SR gets tested. It'd be cool to play in a meta without it. When I say that though, I mean it in the same way that I think a zombie apocalypse would be cool. I want it for a little while until I realize how terrifying it is and then I want everything to be the way it was before. If we do suspect it, it'll be a fun month. But if I'm able to get requirements (lol, yeah right), I'll vote to keep it, I'm sure.
  9. alainvey

    alainvey

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2007
    Messages:
    3
    SR should have been suspected years ago IMO. People argue that it would change the meta beyond recognition to remove it - does no one else consider this fact to be slightly embarrassing?

    It's been permitted to embed itself so firmly in the metagame, to dictate its evolution so fundamentally, that the thought of it being removed now seems impossible.

    Also, arguing against the mere consideration of any piece of legislation based on some theoretical assessment of the practicality of its implementation (even before the potential value of the legislation has been properly evaluated) is something I find extremely sinister. This happens in the real world all the time, and it blocks democratic progress and change.

    Don't get me wrong, I like SR, but I really think the community would be failing itself not to test it.
  10. Bent1ey

    Bent1ey

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2012
    Messages:
    311
    The suspect should be done, I think that most questions about "Should a suspect be done" are actually a cry for testing and on by itself. You don't see this kind of topic with Metagross or things that obviously don't work, and suspect testing doesn't equal banning in any way or form, this mentality about the taboo on suspects should be entirely abolished from the roots of the tiering system.
  11. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2011
    Messages:
    4,337
    I hate it when people bring up this as a point. The bolded statement is entirely false. Anything with enough notoriety is likely to get banned. See: every ban this generation. You can't honestly argue that Pokemon like Excadrill weren't bandwagoned into a ban. Suspecting at this point is basically a death sentence. We suspect things because they are thought to be broken, not because a metagame without them sounds "fun" or "interesting."
  12. Aasgier

    Aasgier

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2012
    Messages:
    494
    What about having the very first Suspect Test of Gen VI - assuming SR won't be nerfed - being Stealth Rock?

    That would mitigate the issue of not having enough time imho.
    If SR gets nerfed, it will be a different case obviously.
  13. Yuttt

    Yuttt

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2013
    Messages:
    192
    I think the main question is: How do you tell if SR, in itself, is broken? How do you differentiate its effects from the Pokemon, such as Volcarona or D-Nite, or items, namely Focus Sash? If, for example, it turns out that without SR, D-Nite is the ultimate Pokemon, and Volcarona is a must-have on every team, what would you do? Ban the Pokemon, or keep SR? I feel this is a big issue for testing SR.
  14. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2011
    Messages:
    4,337
    I just want to note that there will undoubtedly be much bigger issues to deal with at the beginning of XY. To get a stable metagame, we had to ban a few things before we could even get into more subjective tests (this time being R1 - R2/R3).
  15. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2011
    Messages:
    2,983
    I know it is, but it doesn't have to be that way, I know it was before my time, but there was a time when a suspect test could be done just to see the effect on the metagame and not necessarily see if it will be allowed in the meta / banned. If that was the kind of suspect we saw, I would be fine with it, but from the last few suspects, I think it will unlikely end up like that.
  16. Chaoswalker

    Chaoswalker

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2010
    Messages:
    745
    I think the compromise here is to have "no rocks" in Other Metagames, and see what happens. Obviously removing stealth rock is going to change tiering, with some UU shifting up to OU and potentially some OU sliding up to Ubers. A no rocks side meta would allow us to see what this game looks like as it matures over time.
  17. Bent1ey

    Bent1ey

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2012
    Messages:
    311
    I respectfully disagree. Of course banned things went through suspect, but there are supects that weren't banned as recently as Keldeo. So its no death sentence and it shouldn't be seen as such, this kind of paranoid thinking gets in the way of actually sensible testing because people are thought incapable of doing reponsible decisions from the get to go.

    Which is ridiculous.

    We need a more serious definition of what can go to suspect imo, so people don't argue about things not being broken and they don't theorymon the way out of an obvious testing subject.
  18. Lady Alex

    Lady Alex I asked Mawile to not hurt me. I was betrayed.
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2010
    Messages:
    572
    Input from the council about whether this discussion is even worth having would be super.
  19. Im Skalayle

    Im Skalayle

    Joined:
    May 28, 2013
    Messages:
    25
    I believe that Stealth Rocks(SR) should stay because they have been around for a while if its just now getting brought up to the attention like this then it is fine.But if SR gets banned or w/e what stops it from reaching out to other Hazards Spikes and Toxic Spikes.So to my opinion SR should be left alone.
  20. Codraroll

    Codraroll
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2011
    Messages:
    1,417

    Dealing the same damage throughout a match is a lot harder with Spikes or Toxic Spikes than with Stealth Rock.

    Spikes need several turns of setting up to deal any significant damage, whereas Toxic Spikes don't require Rapid Spin to be removed - just switch in a Poison user. Spikes also don't discriminate - they deal the same amount of damage to anything they hit.

    Stealth Rock provides a single-turn, powerful field advantage that can only be nullified by one move, and having it on the opponent's side of the field will never be risky for the user (unlike weather, Baton Pass or Ingrain/Aqua Ring, which are beneficial, but all can be turned to the user's disadvantage by a clever opponent).

    If a user lacks the single (badly distributed) move required to remove Stealth Rock, and the opponent sets it up in turn one, it will often deal more damage through the course of a match than a move such as Earthquake or Fire Blast would - it's just distributed over several turns and several Pokémon. That's a pretty good damage output for a single-turn move with 100% accuracy and no backlash (such as stat drops, recoil, etc).
  21. Haunter

    Haunter 100% avocado
    is an official Team Rateris a Battle Server Administratoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris an Administratoris a Tutor Alumnus
    Líder máximo

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2007
    Messages:
    5,986
    Although it's not a priority for the council, before Pokemon X\Y come out, we'll set up an (informal) stealth rock-less ladder so that we can have an actual idea of what the metagame looks like without the premier entry hazard in the game. According to the results of this test and to what the new games bring to the table, we might take a different approach in regards to SR for the next generation of Pokemon.
  22. CBAKE

    CBAKE

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2013
    Messages:
    1
    It seems like most people here don't understand. Just because there is possibly a sr test, does not mean its going to be banned. Therefore just by having a suspect test does not mean we're going too have to repair the metagame.
  23. SHUCKLE MAN

    SHUCKLE MAN

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2006
    Messages:
    1,187
    I don't really mind if there's a test or not. I don't think it's broken, but like with having all Pokemon unbanned in OU at the start of the generation, I always hold the stance that there's no harm in a test. Usually people worry that it just wastes time, but I don't understand why that's a problem.

    However, with regards to types, it doesn't matter about Stealth Rock. There's always going to be some types which dominate OU and other types which suck. It's like in RBY how Psychic types were amazing and Fighting types were awful. That wasn't because of Stealth Rock, it's just how things happen. Now we have Dragon and Steel which are amazing and Ice and Poison which are awful. Without Stealth Rock we'll still have the same problem with regards to some types of Pokemon being largely unviable.

    And in other tiers it's a different story. There's Ice and Fire types which are really big players in some other tiers (because all the ones left behind have really high stats compared to the rest of the metagame), and there's metagames almost absent of Steel and Dragon types (because they're all in OU). And these metagames still have Stealth Rock in them.
  24. Powergo

    Powergo

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2013
    Messages:
    16
    Well, it would make more Pokémon more used (SP Charizard, Ho-oh, Volcarona etc). It would heavily change the metagames. More Ice/Fire type usage
  25. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2009
    Messages:
    1,779
    Very sensible, thanks! One thing though: is there any possibility of banning focus sash on this ladder, because frankly it would be unbearable? I wouldn't want to guess about anything else, but Focus sash is annoying enough as it is.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)