Would we want a Stealth Rock suspect test? [Read #196]

[peng]

I'm not so sure Focus Sash would be that bad. Sand and Spikes still exist and will probably continue to be popular, so the only Pokemon that Focus Sash is regularly reliable on are Gliscor, Landorus-T, Bronzong, Landorus-I etc, which clearly have better things to be running. Not to mention Abomasnow is probably infinitely better in a SR-less meta (probably still not excellent, but at least viable outside of the "hail for the sake of hail" gimmick), and I'm sure plenty of people will be trying it out, at least in the early days of this ladder.

Then you have to factor in that Focus Sash still isn't all that great. Sure, you get an almost guaranteed turn of set-up if you a) you are sand immune and b) can keep spikes off the field, but you trade the easy set-up for a complete lack of immediate power. I don't know about everyone else, but I would still much rather run Life Orb, Expert Belt, Gems etc over Focus Sash the vast majority of the time - they are far, far more consistent and will probably win me games far more often than a Focus Sash will, especially given how common priority is.

Simply, if Focus Sash sweepers are really as good as people are attempting to make out, then why is nobody using a team of Focus Sash Pokemon + Xatu / a reliable spinner in current OU? Chances are if you are planning on using Focus Sash on the SR-less ladder, you are probably going to have to run Rapid Spin / Magic Bounce somewhere because the use Spikes will almost definitely still be widespread.

 

[WelshDragonite]

Very sensible, thanks! One thing though: is there any possibility of banning focus sash on this ladder, because frankly it would be unbearable? I wouldn't want to guess about anything else, but Focus sash is annoying enough as it is.

what about spikes, toxic, leech seed and burn that break sash?

 

[jc104]

Well toxic, leech seed and burn are not really relevant (I mean, you could just attack, after all). I hadn't really considered the effect of hail though.

Regardless, if we're not sure then we shouldn't do it. I can't say I expect it to last long, but we'll see.

 

[Last Chance Breaker]

Time for my opinion.

Now, my very first post here and my lack of experience on smogon might convey you to just skip my post entirely (which I don't blame you for), but I still hope to get my point across.

Most people here just have been saying about how SR helps certain teams and stops certain pokemon from Dominating. I find this to be in part true, but not a completely valid reason. First of all, on the front of helping certain types of teams, that's just not anything to be worried about. SR is used in all sorts of inventive ways. It can help to keep on the offensive pressure for a team, allowing the main sweepers of a team to clean up. On the other side, Defensive teams use SR to rack up damage and make people slightly more wary of sending in more valuable Pokemon straight away. I don't think SR really defines a metagame, but simple effects the teams used within it. There will be defensive and offensive teams used on similar principles with or without SR. So it isn't really broken in that sense.

Next, on the subject of people saying removing SR will allow certain pokemon to dominate, of course it will. Large game changing effects always make the meta different. But what we must remember is that if the meta changes, how we use and manipulate the meta will too. Players will adapt to new methods of controlling the game, just as they might of done with SR still here. It will change the game, but it won't change how we play it as much. Also, with XY not long of, we must still be open to ground breaking new moves and styles that could massively affect the meta. So somethings will change no matter what we introduce/ban. That's how this game goes, and one reason we love it.

On the Sash thing, other types of hazards are still open to use. Even without SR, sash users have always had their fair share of counters. It shouldn't really be a massive concern, we should focus on the more wide ranged effects of the lack of SR.

Overall, I believe a test might be useful. Such a thing could be very interesting, and it is the only way to truly get a reading on how SR affects the meta. However, I still doubt it will make all that much difference, so I voted for the second option

Thank you for humoring me for a while.

 

[Kidogo]

Although it's not a priority for the council, before Pokemon X\Y come out, we'll set up an (informal) stealth rock-less ladder so that we can have an actual idea of what the metagame looks like without the premier entry hazard in the game. According to the results of this test and to what the new games bring to the table, we might take a different approach in regards to SR for the next generation of Pokemon.

Thanks, that's honestly what I've expected and hoped for.

Given that the purpose of this thread was to get a look at the possibility of a SR suspect test in the future, I'll probably have it locked imminently. Great discussions guys, I hope to see you on the SR-less ladder!

 

[Lady Alex]

Although it's not a priority for the council, before Pokemon X\Y come out, we'll set up an (informal) stealth rock-less ladder so that we can have an actual idea of what the metagame looks like without the premier entry hazard in the game. According to the results of this test and to what the new games bring to the table, we might take a different approach in regards to SR for the next generation of Pokemon.

Thanks for the reply. This is a very reasonable course of action, and I'm totally cool with this.

 

[alexwolf]

I'm not so sure Focus Sash would be that bad. Sand and Spikes still exist and will probably continue to be popular, so the only Pokemon that Focus Sash is regularly reliable on are Gliscor, Landorus-T, Bronzong, Landorus-I etc, which clearly have better things to be running. Not to mention Abomasnow is probably infinitely better in a SR-less meta (probably still not excellent, but at least viable outside of the "hail for the sake of hail" gimmick), and I'm sure plenty of people will be trying it out, at least in the early days of this ladder.

Then you have to factor in that Focus Sash still isn't all that great. Sure, you get an almost guaranteed turn of set-up if you a) you are sand immune and b) can keep spikes off the field, but you trade the easy set-up for a complete lack of immediate power. I don't know about everyone else, but I would still much rather run Life Orb, Expert Belt, Gems etc over Focus Sash the vast majority of the time - they are far, far more consistent and will probably win me games far more often than a Focus Sash will, especially given how common priority is.

Simply, if Focus Sash sweepers are really as good as people are attempting to make out, then why is nobody using a team of Focus Sash Pokemon + Xatu / a reliable spinner in current OU? Chances are if you are planning on using Focus Sash on the SR-less ladder, you are probably going to have to run Rapid Spin / Magic Bounce somewhere because the use Spikes will almost definitely still be widespread.

You really downplay the importance of Focus Sash (or Sturdy) on Pokemon such as Landorus, Skarmory, Landorus-T, Gliscor, Forretress, and every single non-grounded Pokemon if sand is not up. One of the main reasons that Alakazam sees so much usage is his revenge killing abilities and the fact that he can act as a fail-safe to almost any sweeper. Another important thing, which you neglected, is the surprise factor. Of 'course Alakazam doesn't have this as it is almost always seen carrying Focus Sash, but in a SR-less metagame many non-grounded Pokemon could use Focus Sash to deal with their usual checks if they were used in rain or sun (thus canceling sand). Imagine bringing in a Pokemon that is supposed to check another, such as Choice Scarf Kyurem-B against Nasty Plot Thundurus-T, only for Thundurus-T to survive the hit, eliminate your scarfer, and maybe sweep through the rest of your team. Such examples show how the use of Focus Sash can completely change the course of the game in a single turn, while the opponent has zero things it can do about it if it doesn't already know that the Pokemon in question holds Focus Sash. The surprise factor that Focus Sash adds to the game is huge and should not be underestimated.

Whatever i said is irrelevant to the SR discussion btw, i was just stating how good of an item Focus Sash would be in a SR-less metagame.

 

[Scorpiopt]

Although it's not a priority for the council, before Pokemon X\Y come out, we'll set up an (informal) stealth rock-less ladder so that we can have an actual idea of what the metagame looks like without the premier entry hazard in the game. According to the results of this test and to what the new games bring to the table, we might take a different approach in regards to SR for the next generation of Pokemon.

Wise decision