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Gen 1 Wrap

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by HUARGH, May 22, 2013.

  1. HUARGH

    HUARGH

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    Judging from two other topics, this topic is probably what we need.

    What you need to know about wrap
    With 'wrap' we really mean 4 moves: Wrap, Fire Spin, Clamp, and Bind. They prevent your opponent from attacking after they hit during the whole 2-5 turns the attack may last instead of preventing switches. So, if you are faster than your opponent, you can keep using Wrap over and over again and they cannot hit you back. Only the first hit of the 2-5 attack sequence wastes a PP and is subject to miss due to accuracy. The Wrapping Pokemon isn't allowed to use any other attack until the 2-5 turn sequence ends. In addition, a critical hit is only calculated for the first hit; if it does score a critical hit, every remaining sequence hit will do that amount of damage. Using a trapping move can also be used to get a free switch. For example: Cloyster uses Clamp on an incoming Starmie. Cloyster can switch out freely the turn after while Starmie will stay immobilized for that turn, but will still be released from the Clamp. The Pokemon will also remain immobilized if the user of the partial trapping technique is fully paralyzed mid sequence, but the sequence will end.

    If a Wrapped Pokemon switches out while in the middle of a Wrap sequence, the sequence resets, and the accuracy must be tested again on the switch-in and another PP is wasted. If at such a time the trapping move has 0 PP, it will still be used against the incoming Pokemon. After that use, the current PP of the trapping move will roll over to 63.

    If the target of the partial trapping move just used Hyper Beam, it won't have to recharge if the partial trapping move misses on the recharge turn. Additionally, if the user of the partial trapping move attacks before the user of Hyper Beam during a recharge turn and the partial trapping move misses, the user of Hyper Beam will automatically use Hyper Beam during that turn. If at such a time Hyper Beam has 0 PP, Hyper Beam will still be used, and its PP will roll over 63.

    A final interesting note concerning only Wrap and Bind, is that while as they are Normal-type attacks and deal no damage when used against a Ghost-type, they will still immobilize it.

    So why this topic?
    In other topics - namely this and this one - wrap was brought up, extensively in the former. There has been some good discussion but ultimately it is misplaced and scattered over topics as off-topic. In this topic, we can discuss all that is wrap.

    *How do you counter Wrap?
    *Is wrap broken?
    *Should it be banned/suspected?
    *What do wrap teams look like?
  2. Dre89

    Dre89

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    I obviously don't think it should be banned.

    To counter wrap, you just need to keep fast paralysers like zam and starmie unparalysed and either gengar or a rock. When the standard wrappers starts wrapping, you switch to these guys to scare them out. If you're worried about stun spore from victreebel, you just bait bel into wrapping something, then switch to zam/starmie so it auto-wraps them when they switch in.

    You can also PP stall them by constantly switching, but this often isn't necessary. It is however, a pretty good idea against cloyster, because it only has 16 PP and 75 accuracy.

    As for dragonite, if it sets up, then your best bet is to go to gengar or just PP stall it. Note however that although nite can't damage gengar with wrap, he can still immobilise him and chain switch out.

    If you don't have gengar, you can attempt to just PP stall him by constantly switching. This is made a lot easier if you have a rock, as they only take 1% each time. Make sure you mix up your switch patterns though, because smart players will retract nite and make an offensive switch if he knows what you're going to send in.

    There's obviously a lot more to the wrap meta than that, but that's just a quick overview of why it's not broken and how to deal with it. It's not necessarily even the best strategy. I just got 3-0d out of a tourney because I got haxed insanely all three times by a non-wrap team, so it's not as if it's wrap or lose.
    Piexplode likes this.
  3. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    I would ask you for the logs, but I'm still in said tournament. After it's finished, I'll ask you for those.
  4. Dre89

    Dre89

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    I didn't save the logs.
  5. Lavo$

    Lavo$
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

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    - gar or fast twavers e.g. starmie zam (pp stall is also ok or it can just miss)
    - no
    - no
    - zam/golem/chans/egg/tauros/dnite? there's many variations but nobody cares about most of them since they're so bad...victreebel is surprisingly viable though, gets dual status and super high crit stab. too bad it loses to almost everything

    why was this thread necessary
  6. Dre89

    Dre89

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    Mine is zam bel cloy chansey rhydon nite. I've had a lot of success with it. I've honestly never had so much startegy and tactics with a team before, that's why I haven't changed it in months. This team is basically what made me become a wrap fanboy and not take non-wrap seriously anymore, just because of the disparity in depth and dynamics between this team and my last competitive non-wrap team (that could just be me sucking at non-wrap though). I also kinda like how it uses a few pokemon that aren't considered top OU for that hipster factor. I don't really care if my opponents know my team because it's pretty hard to anti-team, in the sense that I stand a chance against any team if I play right.

    I'm starting to think gar is overrated to be honest. It's kinda like the wrap chansey in that it cockblock wrappers, but invites in offensive pokemon (for free as well). I've always said you need either gar or a rock on a wrap team, and I'm starting to think rocks are decisively better. Rock teams semi-counter gar teams as well I've realised.
  7. Lavo$

    Lavo$
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    ah glad you edited, i was just going to say that gar's problem is that it lets big offensive threats switch in for little to no consequence. i think confuse ray is often a good option for gar simply because you can put a wrench in some common switch-ins' gears. however i really don't like how your team stacks up vs gar in particular, half your team can do essentially nothing to it and you can't let it boom on chansey either or you risk flat out losing to lapras (another really big deal for your team). one of the main reasons i don't use a lot of wrap teams myself is because i feel that wrap is given to such a limited range of pokemon that it somewhat constrains your team's synergy and prevents you from the creating the switch patterns and collective dynamics that are so important to have in rby. some people swear by wrap though.

    overall i think it's sort of an obnoxious strategy that really focuses on playing the odds and hoping you get lucky. that's not the type of game i enjoy playing - yes, in rby we all have to play the odds at some point, but i feel that wrap introduces new elements of luck-based play that shouldn't be prevalent in any competitive metagame. that said it's not broken so who the hell cares
  8. Joim

    Joim Navigate the pitfalls, cross the great divide!
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    The only problem I have with Wrap is when you have to PP stall it, which leads to utterly boring and long battles.
  9. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Reflect, Counter, or Thunderbolt on Chansey?
  10. Mr.E

    Mr.E im the best
    is a Pre-Contributoris a Past SPL Winner

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    I am acknowledging the existence of this topic by posting but do not feel it dignifies a real response.
  11. Dre89

    Dre89

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    It's only an obnoxious strategy if you try to wrap everything to death. I posted a warstory here recently using this team. You might want to read it and you'll notice that my strategy isn't as 'obnoxious' as just wrapping everything to death. I generally try to avoid that if I can because it has improbable odds of succeeding.

    Gar honestly isn't as much of a problem for my team as I used to think it was. Now that the wrap mechanics have been fixed on PO, whenever gar comes into my wrapper's wrap, I just chain-switch to rhydon. I'm willing to sacrifice half of my rhydon's health to get rid of gar, but most opponents don't like that trade.

    Lapras is manageable too, albeit very tricky. I'd probably absord a blizzard with cloyster then chain-switch to bel to to wrap-rleaf it or something like that. This team is very offensive, so in certain cases I accept that a lot my plan Bs and Cs involve making sacrfices or taking risks.

    Honestly in most cases I don't really care about stuff booming on my chansey. I don't mind eggy booming, because then my rhydon becomes a lot more of a threat. I don't mind gar booming, because then my wrappers become more of a threat. I don't mind cloy booming, because it makes my wrappers and rhydon more of a threat (kind of). I do mind golem booming however, because I don't really benefit much from that trade, although it does make it harder for them to stall nite in the end-game.
  12. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    You know, I was pretty bored last night, so I actually wrote up a code to find out what the average damage of wrap (for Dragonite) is if you just sit there and take it based on what Mr. E said in the Mewtwo thread about it being about 180 damage.

    It turns out, that its about 80ish damage overall, and factoring in critical hits, it gets boosted to a little over 100 damage, after about 10,000 tests.

    Here is the code I did for it, I am completely open to criticism as I may have gotten the mechanics a bit off.

    Code:
    #include <iostream>
    #include <string>
    #include <vector>
    #include <cstdlib>
    #include <ctime>
    #include <cmath>
    
    using namespace std;
    
    int wrap;
    int damage;
    int accuracy;
    int pp=20;
    int test=100000;
    int tdamage=0;
    int crit;
    
    int main()
    {
        srand ( time(NULL) );
    
        while (test >0)
        {
        while (pp>0)
        {
            wrap= rand() % 4 + 2;
    
            cout << wrap << endl;
        while (wrap>0)
        {
            accuracy = rand() % 20;
            if (accuracy > 16)
            {
                cout << "MISS" << endl;
                break;
            }
            crit= rand()%20;
            if (crit<4)
            {
            cout << "+30" << endl;
            damage = damage + 30;
            }
            else
            {
            cout << "+15" << endl;
            damage = damage + 15;
            }
            wrap--;
        }
            if (accuracy>16)
            {
                break;
            }
         cout << endl;
         pp--;
        }
        pp=20;
        cout << damage << endl;
        tdamage=tdamage + damage;
        damage=0;
        test--;
        }
        cout << tdamage / 100000 << endl;
    
    
    
        return 0;
    }
    
    
    What does this mean? Pretty much nothing, I was just curious and wanted to share my results.
    Piexplode likes this.
  13. AraShaun

    AraShaun

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    That's pretty cool man, this'll help the discussion a lot, kudos to you!

    On another note as a fellow programmer, please tell me the code tags messed up your indentation >_<
  14. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    To clarify, your aim here wasn't to calculate actual damage, but rather the effective average base power of Wrap between its first use and the defending Pokemon's next opening to attack.
  15. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    Yes this is correct, sorry if the way I wrote it was confusing.
  16. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    I can't read code very well, but there are a couple of things that you look like you've missed.

    1) Wrap has a 37.5% chance to hit twice, 37.5% chance to hit 3 times, 12.5% chance to hit 4 times, and 12.5% chance to hit 5 times. It's not even.

    2) Dragonite's chance to critical-hit in RBY is 80/512. I'm not sure whether you accounted for this correctly.

    3) With PP ups, Wrap's PP is 32.

    4) Not sure if I've interpreted this correctly, but it seems like you're calculating the chance for Wrap to miss every turn - once Wrap hits, it'll keep hitting until it finishes (and at the same power, too - if it crits, then all of the turns will do the same damage).

    The relevant probability tree is something like this.

    0.15 - Break chain, Wrap has missed.
    0.85*80/512 - Wrap crits, inflicts 60/90/120/150 base power with distribution 0.375/0.375/0.125/0.125
    0.85*432/512 - Wrap hits normally, inflicts 30/45/60/75 base power with distribution 0.375/0.375/0.125/0.125
  17. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    Yep these are problems I did not account for, I might fix it up later.

    The only one that isn't a problem is 2, as using a probability range that big on seed time would cause more problems than it would solve. Ironically, the smaller the range, the better it is. edit: although yeah, I can make it 5/32
  18. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    I only mentioned it in the non-reduced form because of the actual way it's calculated.
  19. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    Ok, I basically redid it, I think I have it fixed up now, but I am dubious of the results I got to be honest...

    Not factoring in crits: 254 base power
    Factoring in crits: 293 base power
    (100,000 tests)

    this could be effected by the freak chance of like 20 hits in a row with like 1000+ base damage

    Code:
    #include <iostream>
    #include <string>
    #include <vector>
    #include <cstdlib>
    #include <ctime>
    #include <cmath>
    
    using namespace std;
    
    int wrap;
    int damage;
    int accuracy;
    int pp=32;
    int test=100000;
    int tdamage=0;
    int avgdamage=0;
    int crit;
    
    int main()
    {
        srand ( time(NULL) );
    
        while (test > 0)
        {
            while (pp>0)
            {
                accuracy=rand() % 20;
                if (accuracy > 16)
                {
                    cout << "MISS" << endl;
                    pp=32;
                    break;
                }
                else
                {
                    wrap= rand() % 8;
                    if (wrap < 3)
                    {
                        damage=30;
                    }
                    else if (wrap < 6)
                    {
                        damage=45;
                    }
                    else if (wrap==6)
                    {
                        damage=60;
                    }
                    else if (wrap==7)
                    {
                        damage=75;
                    }
    
                    crit = rand()%32;
                    if (crit<5)
                    {
                        damage*=2;
                        cout << "CRIT ";
                    }
                    cout << pp << " " <<damage<< endl;
                    tdamage=tdamage+damage;
                }
                pp--;
    
            }
            cout << tdamage << endl << endl;
            avgdamage=avgdamage+tdamage;
            tdamage=0;
            pp=32;
            test--;
        }
    
        cout << avgdamage / 100000 << endl;
    
    
    
        return 0;
    }
    
  20. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Sounds about right. 85:15 gives 5 2/3 hits per miss, and a Wrap hit is, on average, 45 base power, so the theoretical yield is 255 before accounting for crits.

    In other words, YES, AgiliWrap Dnite is a giant pain to face if it sets up without taking PAR or dying. If it was Dragon/Normal or Dragon/Ground instead of Dragon/Flying, it'd be banned to Ubers in a heartbeat.
  21. Dre89

    Dre89

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    Do you mean pain as in annoying to deal with or is a genuine threat? I'd say that in the +100 battles I've had with my wrap team, my dragonite has probably never swept more than three pokemon of a player who knew what they were doing.

    Most players know now how to stall it. I think the big mistake people still make is make their switch pattern predictable. I personally think that's where dragonite's biggest threat comes from. It has the ability to set up many different offensive switches off just one free turn.

    It's definitely annoying having to count the PP (a PP counter would be helpful for this) but it's certainly not broken.
  22. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Protip: Going 3-for-1 is game if you have any actually decent 'mons on your team. 1 slept + 3 dead to Dragonite + 1 dead to Snorlax's SD leaves only one opponent left active to your three, and hardly anything can take on three 'mons if they're the right three 'mons.

    But yes, I meant pain as in annoying, because you simply can't stay in and wait for it to miss thanks to taking a bit over a STAB Hyper Beam to the face between each attack, and you can't outspeed it the way you can with Victreebel or Cloyster. Thus, otherwise-won games can be dragged out for 35 turns by sending AgiNite in on a sweeping Tauros/Snorlax/Rhydon, getting lucky on Body Slam's paralysis chance or Blizzard not critting, and clicking Wrap a bazillion times. You don't do it, but some people do, and it annoys the crap out of me even if it's not particularly effective because it inserts 35 turns of mindless stalling with absolutely no skill or doubt as to the outcome.

    Now, that's obviously not a reason to ban it, but it's still fucking annoying.

    You need some actual offense to do that, and Dragonite's defensive utility is extremely limited (it can switch into Rhydon once and force it out, and it can take a stab at walling Slowbro with Wrap, but that's about all), so you're giving up a lot to pull that off. And there's the issue that Dragonite can't do that many times thanks to the setup requirement and everything being able to 2HKO it or paralyse it if not both (Mega Drain Egg and Gengar being the only common exceptions, and if they have Gengar, Dragonite's got all the usefulness of a turd anyway).
  23. Dre89

    Dre89

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    When I say 3 pokemon, I mean 3 crippled pokemon at the end of the battle. I would never KO anything a good opponent if I set it up on like the 3rd turn.

    Dragonite is still very useful with gengar around, in fact luring gengar can set up some pretty decent offensive momentum.

    What I mean by nite being good for setting up offensive switches is that if it sets up early on, you can read a switch and make an offensive switch yourself. Getting my bel in on their rock is normally what I go for, because it's such a pressuring position. My rock on their gengar is pretty good too.
  24. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Lol, WrapBel pressuring.

    Protip: Bel applies no pressure unless it's got Swords Dance, because ~everything switches into Wrap and there are fifty bazillion things that force Wrap (Exeggutor, Snorlax and Chansey are only, y'know, the three most indispensable Pokemon in the whole tier). Control =/= Pressure. (This is also one of the biggest reasons to use Tauros over Dragonite - Dragonite applies no pressure unless you're playing fast and loose with Hyper Beam/Surf prediction to finesse kills.)
  25. Dre89

    Dre89

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    The pressure is in the switches that it allows. I'm not going to get into theorycraft about what it forces in and out and what switches you can do, because that's player dependent, but you will have the advantage due to having the first free switch.

    The pressure compounds a lot when everything is paralysed, or something is in rleaf range. Having something in rleaf range is a great way to spread status to crucial stuff like zam, but again that's player dependent.

    Same with dragonite. The pressure is in the fact that it forces so many switches or lures in gar, which is a good offensive pivot for your team.

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