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Wrath of the Sea Leviathan [OU RMT]

Discussion in 'Past Gen Teams' started by DropTheNuke, Apr 2, 2010.

  1. DropTheNuke

    DropTheNuke

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    Okay, it's been half a year since I've posted a team on Smogon. During this time, I've been playing Pokemon on and off, both on Shoddy and Wifi. After a bit of work, I've decided to let you folks at Smogon help criticize and improve my team.

    A big thanks in advance to all who check out and help me improve my team.

    Changes in red.

    The Team Lineup

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Now let's take this team apart and analyze the members one by one.

    The Anti-Lead
    [​IMG]
    Starmie @ Life Orb
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 40 HP/216 Spd/252 SAtk
    Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Grass Knot
    - Hydro Pump
    - Ice Beam
    - Rapid Spin

    In a metagame full of bulky leads, suicide leads, and status leads, it surprises me that Starmie isn't very commonly seen as an anti-lead. This little sea star is one of the most versatile Pokemon in the game, able to handle it's own against many of the common leads.

    1. Metagross: Neither Meteor Mash nor Bullet Punch are strong enough to 2HKO Starmie, to my knowledge. In turn, Starmie 2HKO's Metagross using Hydro Pump.

    2. Azelf: Azelf, and other fast, suicide leads, really aren't a match for Starmie. A Hydro Pump will bring Azelf to it's Sash, and if rocks are up, a Rapid Spin will KO the pixie.

    3. Infernape: Hydro Pump + Rapid Spin = win, while Infernape's two STABS are resisted by Starmie.

    4. Jirachi: Starmie resists Iron Head, but the Flinch-hax can be disappointing. Starmie also doesn't mind a Choice Scarf, as this allows Starmie to revenge kill +1 Salamence.

    5. Aerodactyl: Same as Azelf, Hydro Pump + Rapid Spin.

    6. Swampert: Grass Knot OHKO's Swampert easily.

    7. Bronzong: Not so sure about this thing. If it hypnosis, I switch out, and Starmie resists Gyro Ball.

    8. Tyranitar: Scarf-tar is Starmie's worst nemesis, but a Pursuit won't OHKO if I stay in, allowing me to do massive damage with a Grass Knot and revenge kill with Scizor.

    9. Heatran: Hydro Pump + Rapid spin usually works if this thing sets up rocks first turn.

    10. Gengar: If it has Thunderbolt, I'm dead, but if it doesn't then Starmie eats this thing for breakfast. Revenge kill with Scizor if necessary.


    As you can see, Starmie is a very powerful anti-lead. Leads that I have trouble with include Abomasnow, who resists my attacks, and Scarf-tar, as mentioned before.

    The Tranny
    [​IMG]
    Heatran (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 Spe / 252 SpA / 6 HP
    Timid Nature
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Fire Blast
    - Earth Power
    - Substitute

    This Heatran's job is twofold. First, it allows me to set up Stealth Rock, which is in dire need to ensure a clean Gyarados sweep. Second, Heatran manages to take down many physical walls such as Forretress, Skarmory, and Hippowdon. With these taken care of, Gyarados has an easier time of sweeping. Heatran's Steel-Fire typing is perfect, as it synergizes very well with Scizor.

    I decided to remove Stealth Rock from Heatran, as it took up a vital moveslot. I put in Substitute and Dragon Pulse, allowing me to beat other Heatrans and take down Salamence switch-ins.

    The Scizor

    [​IMG]
    Scizor (M) @ Choice Band
    Ability: Technician
    EVs: 248 HP/252 Atk/10 Spd
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Bullet Punch
    - Pursuit
    - Superpower
    - U-turn

    Scizor is something that deserves a class of it's own in the OU metagame. This Scizor serves three purposes. First, it can be used to revenge kill many threats to my team, such as Salamence and Tyranitar. Without Scizor, these two threats would be able to rampage through my team. Second, Scizor acts as a scout through the use of U-turn. This is pretty self-explanatory, allowing me to see whether there are any counters to Gyarados on my opponent's team. Zapdos, in particular, can be scouted by Scizor, as both Gyarados and Scizor are walled by Zapdos. Finally, Scizor acts as a powerful pursuiter (his pursuits are as powerful as T-tar's). Some of Gyarados' biggest counters are fast, scarfed Pokemon such as Gengar, Latias, and Starmie. A pursuit will end these Pokemon, allowing Gyarados an easier time sweeping.

    The Glue
    [​IMG]
    Latias (F) @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 6 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
    Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Thunderbolt
    - Trick
    - Surf

    After experimenting with Latias, I've realized that there are few Pokes powerful and versatile enough to hold teams together as Latias. With a Choice Scarf, Latias can drop powerful Draco Meteors at targets, heavily damaging and sometimes killing them outright. Trick allows Latias to cripple something annoying like Blissey, who love to switch into Latias'. Finally, Thunderbolt ensures that I have a reliable check to Gyarados, as Scarfed Latias outspeeds +1 Gyarados.

    Breloom
    [​IMG]
    Breloom @ Toxic Orb
    Ability: Poison Heal
    EVs: 48 HP/252 Atk/208 Spd
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Spore
    - Focus Punch
    - Substitute
    - Seed Bomb


    Breloom is a temporary replacement for Metagross. It's rather convenient typing allows it to switch in to many attacks that give my other Pokes trouble, such as an EQ for Heatran, a Crunch or Dark Pulse for Latias, and a Stone Edge for Gyarados. Standard set, really. Haven't got much to say about this one. Disregard any mentions of Metagross in the analysis of the next Pokemon.

    The Sweeper
    [​IMG]
    Gyarados (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 156 HP / 168 Atk / 184 Spe
    Adamant (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Dragon Dance
    - Taunt
    - Earthquake
    - Waterfall

    To say that Gyarados is threatening is an understatement. This Sea Dragon is, without a doubt, one of the most devastating Pokes in the entire game, on the same level as Salamence and Lucario. With a Bulky spread, Gyarados has the chance to pull off two, or even three Dragon Dances. At that point, Gyarados becomes an unstoppable terror, living up to it's name of the Atrocious pokemon. I took all the Defence EV's and moved them to Attack to hit as hard as possible. Since the defence EV's were to survive two Scizor Quick Attacks, which I've rarely seen, the attack investment is more likely to pay off. I chose Earthquake over Stone Edge, Return, and Ice Fang since I'm quite confident in my ability to nail the threats previously mentioned before starting a Gyarados sweep.

    So that's my Gyarados team. I hope I get alot of comments on how to improve this team. A big thanks to anyone who reads and comments on this RMT. Thanks, guys!
  2. Plus

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    Hello!

    For your team, you are inviting a pokemon such as Forretress to set down entry hazards to your team -- you have two rapid spinners, however you would need to try pretty hard to predict the switch in to a ghost and Hydro Pump something like Rotom-a for stall teams. Nothing on your team, apart from Starmie really threatens Forretress -- even the SpD variant can last a hit from your Starmie and KO with Payback -- however this is quite irrelevant as most Forry would switch in the process. However, you really must watch out for Spikes -- the majority of your pokemon let Skarmory and Forretress set their stuff up, and it forces out the big gun of your team (Gyarados) or relies heavily on Starmie for a threaten and a spin.

    Though Forretress gets a Spin and rocks up for you, your team doesn't need more than one Rapid Spinner, and Forretress contributes heavily to some of your team's weak spots, and what doesn't help it at all is that Forretress likes to be a sitting duck to many pokemon. For your team, I would recommend replacing your Forretress with a Heatran, in order to keep some SR on your team, as well as going nicely with Scizor, a pokemon which would lure in some Fire-type moves and Rotom, something which your team doesn't particularly like to take at the moment.

    For Electivire, its inability to break common walls such as Swampert Forretress Hippowdon to name a few isn't too good. Instead of running Electivire, I would suggest running something more anti - stall yet still provides you a good switch in from Gyarados to x pokemon, so in this case I would suggest Specs Latias. Specs Latias can come in on Rotom Thunderbolts and rip apart teams with Draco Meteor. Should you be fighting some annoying stall teams, you can play around this by Tricking pokemon like Blissey or Forretress, making it a bit easier to counteract these types of teams which you currently look quite weak to.

    Kudos on running Starmie btw -- it's my favorite lead in OU as well. :)

    Heatran @ Choice Scarf
    Naive 252 spa / 252 spe / 6 hp
    Fire Blast / Earth Power / Stealth Rock / Explosion

    Latias @ Choice Specs
    Timid 252 Spa / 252 Spe / 6 hp
    Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse / Trick / Surf

    Running Choice Scarf Heatran provides you extra coverage against Lucario, who is quite threatening to your team should he get a SD up on your Scizor. When using Latias, you can easily spam Draco Meteors to weaken your opposition, and make it easier for Gyarados to sweep. If a Scizor comes in, or a Tyranitar comes in on a Draco meteor and attempts to pursuit you, that is a perfect oppurtunity to set up Gyarados. Latias leaves little to no holes even when it is revenge killed.

    Good luck with the team :)
  3. TheFourthChaser

    TheFourthChaser #TimeForChange
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    Electivire is really not that good, sure it gets a Speed boost from absorbing Electric attack but it's power and moves, having to rely on STAB Thunderpunch isn't great and his SpA isn't any higher for STAB Thunderbolt, make it so that Electivire is not worth the team slot. You also seem a bit DD Gyara weak so, thinking of that while having Electivire I think you can replace it with Jolteon. While Jolteon is still beaten by Jolly Offensive Gyarados according to the latest stats,

    | Gyarados | Nature | Jolly | 22.5 |

    that is the amount of Gyarados running Jolly which means that Jolteon will outspeed 77.5% of Gyarados after a single Dragon Dance. I think an LO Jolteon would work best for you, the set is,

    Jolteon@Life Orb
    Timid Nature
    EVs: 4 Def/252 SpA/252 Speed
    -Thunderbolt
    -Shadow Ball
    -Hidden Power Grass
    -Charge Beam/Substitute

    The moveset and EVs of this set are pretty simple, 252 Special Attack for the highest amount of power possible, 252 Speed lets you outspeed +1 Gyarados, Scarf Tyranitar, Gengar, Starmie, and other things. Thunderbolt is your main STAB while Shadow Ball is hitting mainly Gengar and the Rotom formes. Hidden Power Grass is chosen mainly for Swampert but you can run Hidden Power Fighting for Tyranitar if you really wanted. The last move is Charge Beam, it's there just to get a +1 boost but since you have Sub on your Electivire I slashed Sub in because it's something you might want to use.
  4. DropTheNuke

    DropTheNuke

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    Thanks for the help, Plus.

    For Latias, is there any reason to run both Draco Meteor and Dragon Pulse on the same set? Sorry if I sound ignorant, as I have never used a Latias before.

    I'll have a threat list up very soon.

    Also, how does Jolteon compare against Latias? To my knowledge, both can revenge kill +1 Gyarados and +1 Salamence quite well.
  5. Plus

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    Jolteon only revenge kills bulky Gyarados, or at least those who aren't 252 jolly, actually. Jolteon at best kills salamence without a DD boost with HP Ice, or a tbolt if it's weakened enough. Draco meteor and Dragon Pulse are on the same set as Draco Meteor is more for an instant kill to a switch in, barely anything can last a Draco Meteor from Specs Latias, 2 is pushing it for even Scizor with rocks up. Dragon pulse is for late game plays when you want to finish up with a strong stab move, but don't want to use Draco Meteor to lower your SpA. it's very useful for those types of situations where you can pull sweeps off with it.

    Jolteon cannot switch into Salamence as freely as Latias can -- Jolteon isn't taking any of Salamence's common attacks, while Latias can at least come in on Fire blasts and Earthquakes. If you'd like, you could run Jolteon, though personally I would prefer Latias due to the more likable resistances to Fire and Ground -- it eases up some Ground problems as your only immunity to Ground in that case would be Gyarados, which isn't good at all seeing as how you'd want to save it for later on in the game. With Latias around you can come in on Hippowdon/Pert EQs and beat the crap out of them with Draco Meteor.

    Just my two cents.
  6. Angel Diva

    Angel Diva

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    Your Heatran has no Explosion, so you don't need to lower its Sp Def with Naive
  7. DropTheNuke

    DropTheNuke

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    Oh, very true, looks like I've forgotten all about Explosion.
  8. DropTheNuke

    DropTheNuke

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    Time for a threat list!

    Red are threats that I need help with.

    Offensive Threats
    [​IMG]Aerodactyl :
    ---Lead: These things are very easy for Starmie. He's pretty much guaranteed not to get Rocks up.
    [​IMG]Alakazam :
    ---Specs: While Specs Zams are powerful, Latias resists the common Specs moves except Signal Beam. Revenge kill with Scizor if needed.
    ---Calm Mind: No matter how many calm minds he gets, Scizor will always be able to take it out.
    [​IMG]Azelf :
    ---Lead: Same as Aerodactyl, except better as Starmie resists both Fire Blast and Psychic.
    [​IMG]Breloom :
    ---Subpuncher: This thing is one of the most annoying Pokes in the game. Generally, my best chance is to take the sleep, then switch to Scizor while he subs. I then go for a U-turn while he goes for a Focus Punch, where I switch in Latias and kill him.
    [​IMG]Dragonite :
    ---DDNite and MixNite: Handled well by Latias.
    ---Lead: Starmie LOLs at this thing and destroys it with an Ice Beam.
    [​IMG]Dugtrio :
    ---Trapper: Dugtrio's probably going to get a kill off, but I can easily scare it off with Latias.
    [​IMG]Electivire :
    ---MixVire: If he gets a speed boost off, then I need to take it out with Metagross or Latias. These usually sacrifice power for coverage, and I know that from experience.
    [​IMG]Empoleon :
    ---AgiliPetaya: God damn do I hate these things. The best course of action is to sac a Poke to weaken it and finish it off with Latias, Heatran, or Scizor.
    [​IMG]Flygon :
    ---I don't really know about Flygon, haven't face many of them. But I do know that Scarf'd Latias outspeeds and kills scarf'd Flygon.
    [​IMG]Gengar :
    ---All: Has no chance of outspeeding Latias, and is easy prey to Scizor as long as it doesn't carry Substitute.
    ---Scarf: Can really threaten a Gyarados sweep, but if I scout it out early I can destroy it with Scizor's pursuit.
    [​IMG]Gyarados :
    ---Destroyed by Latias. Scizor can finish a weakened one off.
    [​IMG]Heatran :
    ---Latias rapes this with Surf.
    [​IMG]Heracross :
    ---Could cause issues, but generally suspecable to Gyarados.
    [​IMG]Infernape :
    ---Again, Latias resists both STABs.
    ---Lead: Fake Out leads to damage to Starmie, but Starmie resists it's STABs.
    [​IMG]Jirachi :
    ---Scarfed Lead: Starmie loves these. I resist Iron Head, and I love Choice Scarfs.
    ---Calm Mind: Oh god. These pests are absolutely horrendous and deserve to rot in hell. Thankfully I don't have to put up with them on Wifi.
    [​IMG]Jolteon :
    ---Specs: I outspeed with Latias and can dent it with Draco Meteor, while it doesn't do much to me with Thunderbolt.
    [​IMG]Kingdra :
    ---Haven't fought enough of these to really see a threat in them.
    [​IMG]Latias :
    ---Scarfed: I can lose a Poke and find out what move it's locked into. Then Scizor pursuits it to death.
    [​IMG]Lucario :
    ---Lead: Can be an issue to Starmie. Usually switch to something that can take a Crunch, like Heatran.
    ---Swords Dance: While this thing is threatening, I can scare it off with Gyarados, or just kill it with Heatran.
    [​IMG]Machamp :
    ---This things not that powerful, as Starmie, Latias, and Scizor can take hits from it, but I can't really mitigate the confusion. Not so sure what to do.
    [​IMG]Magnezone:
    ---Steel Killer: If this thing traps Scizor or Metagross, they're most likely dead fodder. However, I usually try to scout out my team with Scizor, so I can escape using U-turn.
    [​IMG]Metagross :
    ---Lead: Starmie eats this thing, as mentioned above unless Hydro Pump misses or he get's an attack boost with Meteor Mash.
    [​IMG]Porygon-Z :
    ---Specs: I can resist Tri-Attack with Scizor, Metagross, and Heatran. Equal level of threat as Alakazam, really.
    [​IMG]Rhyperior :
    ---Can be dangerous in a Sandstorm, but it's incredibly suspecable to Latias and Scizor.
    [​IMG]Salamence :
    ---MixMence: Oh, boy. I usually have to lose a Pokemon before Revenge-killing with Heatran.
    ---DDMence: Scarf'd Latias outspeeds and eats this thing.
    [​IMG]Scizor :
    ---Heatran eats this thing with Fire Blast.
    [​IMG]Starmie :
    ---I love Starmies, I really don't want them to die. Scizor can Pursuit-trap one or U-turn.
    [​IMG]Togekiss :
    ---Latias or Scizor can quickly kill this.
    [​IMG]Tyranitar :
    ---Scarftar Lead: Starmie falls to this, but Scizor can revenge kill.
    ---DDTar: Scizor bullet punch or Latias surf can really punch holes in this.
    [​IMG]Weavile :
    ---Physical: This can pose a problem and eats Starmie for breakfast. If I chose the wrong move with Latias, it turns into pursuit bait aswell. Luckily, this doesn't pose a threat to Gyarados, who is free to set up.
    [​IMG]Yanmega :
    ---
    Lead: Not sure how well Starmie fares against this, to be honest.
    Defensive threats are up next.
  9. DropTheNuke

    DropTheNuke

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    After playtesting these new additions to the team, I realized a few problems.

    First, Latias is a key member of the team, and when she goes down, much of my synergy does so aswell. Is there any way to prolong Latias' life?

    Second, I find that Heatran isn't the best set-upper of Stealth Rock. Is there perhaps an Anti-lead who can also set up stealth rocks well?
  10. DropTheNuke

    DropTheNuke

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    After another day of playtesting, I've come to dislike Metagross. Although it is a potent sweeper, should Gyarados be taken down, it doesn't synergize very well with the rest of the team. I'm considering swapping out Metagross for Nidoking, using this set:

    Nidoking (M) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Poison Point
    EVs: 252 Atk/88 Spd/170 SAtk
    Naughty nature
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Beam
    - Megahorn
    - Thunderbolt

    This set allows me to break apart Pokes who give Gyarados troubles, such as Celebi, Suicune, Vaporeon, Cresselia, and Skarmory. Nidoking also synergizes well with Gyarados, taking Rock and Electric attacks like a champ.

    If I do replace Metagross with Nidoking, it also allows me to run a more offensive set with Gyarados, as I don't fear Skarmories anymore.

    Any suggestions, feedback, or flames?
  11. Phantom_IV

    Phantom_IV

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    Nidoking is a very weak pokemon in OU. Yes, it has coverage, but anything faster will OHKO, and things slower can easily take a hit or two. If you want Metagross to pull its weight a little more, consider running Zen Headbutt over Ice Punch, as helps greatly against Rotom-A and Swampert. LO Meteor Mash KOs both Dragonite and Sala after SR (which you should find a way to fit onto Heatran), and Zen Headbutt does decent damage to Zapdos (plus has a chance to flinch it).
  12. DropTheNuke

    DropTheNuke

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    After using Nidoking in a few battles, I agree that it is a rather frail Poke.

    My issue with Metagross is twofold. First, it doesn't offer any defensive synergy with any of my team. It shares Heatran's ground weakness and Scizor's fire weakness. Latias' dragon and ice weaknesses are already taken care of by Heatran. There's just no motivation to switch Metagross into Grass, Dragon, and Ice attacks when i already have Heatran and Scizor.

    Secondly, I find Metagross heavily lacking on the offensive compartment. Meteor Mash is good, but offers pretty bad coverage IMO. Earthquake is great, but universal. Thunderpunch and Ice Punch are alright at best, but don't aid me greatly.

    So, anybody have a good replacement for Metagross? Preferably something that gives better synergy and offensive typing.

    Also, I'm still looking for a good lead who can set up rocks and kill. I've tried Empoleon and Swampert, but they are both mediocre at best.

    Thanks, guys.
  13. DropTheNuke

    DropTheNuke

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    5-Day Bump.

    In terms of updates, I've (temporarily) replaced Metagross with Breloom, as can be seen in my original post. I've also tried out anti-lead Lucario and Dragonite, but neither have been really key in stopping Stealth Rock.

    Any recommendations are still appreciated.
  14. LinIsKorean

    LinIsKorean

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    If stopping SR is your main priority I would suggest using the standard suicide Aerodactyl lead. This will also allow you to get your own Stealth Rocks up without wasting a moveslot on Heatran. You can find it on the Smogon pages but just in case here it is anyways :

    Aerodactyl @ Focus Sash
    Jolly (4 HP | 252 Attack | 252 Speed)
    -Stealth Rock
    -Taunt
    -Earthquake
    -Rock Slide
  15. Meru

    Meru
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    I have no idea why you think anti-lead Starmie works against half of those leads.

    One in particular that struck me as wrong is Azelf lead puts up SR with its sash then Explodes on you. You're both down a poke and he has rocks up, so Starmie did nothing to solve that :|
  16. DropTheNuke

    DropTheNuke

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    About the Azelf issue, I changed Starmie's EVs a bit. Instead of max speed, I changed it to 216. This allows Azelf to always outspeed Starmie, while Starmie outspeeds positive Base 100's.

    Now, my order of play goes like this:

    1st Turn: Azelf Stealth Rocks, Starmie Rapid Spins away rocks and breaks sash.
    2nd Turn: Azelf either explodes, or Stealth Rocks again and I kill it.

    In the first case, we're both down one Poke, but I've managed to stop SR. In the second, he has rocks but I have a Poke at 90% who can rapid spin later on.

    Please, explain why Starmie doesn't work against "half of those leads" mentioned above.
  17. Excellence

    Excellence

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    Setting up Stealth Rocks isn't always the first turn move. Anything that is faster than your Starmie and carries a move to super effect and Focus Sash will probably opt to just destroy it first.

    Let's say that turn one decides that they'd rather get rid of your Rapid Spinner before setting up thier Stealth Rocks. They'll take our Starmie and even if they don't take it out in one hit as long they go first they'll destroy it. Then you'll be down one Starmie and unless you don't have a priority move they can set up Stealth Rock and you're both down one Pokemon.

    I think that if you're looking for an Antilead Pokemon, the best thing to do is go with something like Infernape, Jirachi, or Dragonite.
  18. DropTheNuke

    DropTheNuke

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    Let's look at it this way. First, the only three leads who can match Starmie in speed, not counting Scarfed Pokes, are Azelf, Aerodactyl, and Weavile. Second, Starmie's job is to get rid of, or prevent stealth rocks.

    Now let's analysis the three aforementioned Pokemon who outspeed Starmie and can be used as a lead.

    1. Azelf: I've pretty much covered Azelf in my previous post. Lead Azelfs usually carry Taunt, SR, Psychic/Fire Blast, and Explosion. Taunt is absolutely useless, and neither Psychic nor Fire Blast get 2HKOs. That means the only real way for Azelf to defeat Starmie is through Explosion. If that occurs, Azelf gets no rocks. Here, Starmie wins.

    2. Weavile: I've rarely faced a lead Weavile, but I know that there's no way Starmie can handle these. However, these can't carry Stealth Rock, so again, no rocks on my field.

    3. Aerodactyl: These can 2HKO Starmie with EQ or Rock Slide, but I can blast it once with a Hydro Pump and get it to it's Sash. Afterwords, Scizor revenge kills with BP. If it opts to SR first or second turn, I can easily get a spin in.

    As one can see, Starmie wins against Azelf, dies to Aerodactyl but it in turn is devastated, and loses outright to Weavile.

    The option of an anti-lead who carries the usual strong attack + priority, such as Infernape, Dragonite and Lucario still exists, but they really can't stop SR from entering the field, nor can they blow them away.

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