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Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by Melee Mewtwo, Sep 11, 2013.
you do know goomy is gonna be uber right?
what I wanna discuss is about the weather nerf, as the discussions before weren't too developed.
Kyogre is still going to wreck things with Specs/Scarf, but what about the other sets, such as CMKyogre? It cannot bet CMArceus anymore without rain up. I guess he'll still be #1 in ubers. I don't see Kabutops/Kingdra's usage dropping a lot, as they still have enough time to sweep. I think rain+swift swimmers is still as viable as in this gen. Manaphy is dead, though.
What about Groudon then? Groudon is powerful enough to dent things such as Ferro/Forry, Skarmory, even without sun, so I don't see much change here.
Ho-Oh is going to dislike the weather nerf, especially those who need a free turn to set up a substitute, meaning you lose a turn of sunshine. Also, once the sun isn't up, it has to take 70% accuracy Thunders, or Palkia's STAB surfs. Reshiram won't change much imo. Heatran doesn't like this change either, as he needs sun to tank Lati@s/Palkia (as surf does a lot), or to gain notable 2HKO or 3HKO against Dialga/Arceus.
Tyranitar/Hippowdon will still perform their duties well, but I'm not too sure about Excadrill. He needs the speed boost, or he isn't going to do anything (I'm talking about the SD set). Sand Stall will miss the extra 6% damage per turn.
Has anyone gotten the brilliance of these latest Megalutions? Mega Gengar, pending the release of it's stats, can trap and kill Xerneas.
<Jibaku> mega mewtwo x base stats
Big thanks to malomyotismon for providing the stats to get these bases.
Re weather nerf: Tops and friends are fucked, they have very little flexibility now as they have to come in sometime after ogre. Basically, this nerf did nothing but dick over guys like him.
Do you think we'll see more things holding their respective weather rocks, especially since the weather nerf might lead to people not going to as extreme lengths to keep weather starters alive until the end of the match?
BW2 Ubers was never a weather metagame, just had weather everywhere. (does that make sense?) So I doubt people will be more aggressive with their starters. (maybe slightly since there won't be guys like Tops and Exca that can punish sacking) Weather rocks may become popular to try and keep guys like Tops viable but, idk, really hard to say. It'll depend on how much the meta lets the starters come in.
Edit: <imanalt> so mawile is 50/105/125/55/95/50
Never thought about that. I just killed the only one I've seen on Showdown with Metagross's Meteor Mash.
All one would need to break Xerneas is to Give it Earth Power and A Decent Fire move, with the combination of geomancy and power herb, it essentially would become banned from ubers simply because it'd be un-wallable (With SR in play)
<@Molk> xerneas gets focus blast
meh, maybe Scizor will be a thing once again. Remember though, as devastating as xerneas' sweeping potential is, it only really gets one shot to make it happen. While most sweepers need only one shot anyways, if you manage to phaze him out at any time after geomancy he won't be a huge threat later on
As of Molk's stats on #pokemon, and thanks to the IV checker guy, Xerneas now has 130 Atk / 131 SAtk / 99 Speed (9.9)
We aren't going to ban any Pokemon from Ubers, ever.
If Xerneas becomes unbearable, there may always be desperate Geomancy ban (Ubers is still playable metagame even if it is banlist). Well, complex bans are as always controversial and I'm pretty sure some people will disagree with me (maybe even all), but it wouldn't be first time (Swift Swim + Drizzle ban in OU for example). And BTW wait for metagame to clarify first before we start being ban-happy with anything (and surely not Pokemon).
So what nature do you think would be best for Xerneas?
Modest or Timid will do.
Also a quick reminder:
Yveltal and Xerneas' base stats (should be exact): 126/131/95/131/98/99
Yveltal's notable movepool so far: Hurricane, Dark Pulse, Roost, Taunt, Disable, Oblivion Wing, U-turn, Focus Blast, Foul Play
Xerneas' notable movepool so far: Megahorn, Horn Leech, Geomancy, Focus Blast, Thunderbolt, Grass Knot, Moonblast, Aromatherapy, Light Screen.
(omitted moves that everyone learns a.k.a toxic rest sleep talk protect)
Is geomancy charged vy power herb?Also, it works like futere sight, a move that hits later but you can use another move while it doesnt hit, or it work like solar beam, in wich youre traped until the move hits?
From what i've tested on Ubers Beta, it works as Solar Beam. If it was a Future Sight-like move, then Life Orb could be used instead of Power Herb and Protect would be used to scout the charge turn.
oh, ok. So, is there any chances xerneas will be Ou?
Probably not, it's too powerful as it and it has a move that gives it +2 in satk, spe, and spdef in one turn (if combined with a power herb).
Aegislash is quite a powerful mon to be using if played with tactically. You can stack up Swords Dances in Shielded mode, and start your offensive whenever you desire, and you'll be hitting enemies with STAB Shadow Sneaks and non-STAB Sacred Swords off 876 Attack with Adamant nature and a Swords Dance, allowing you to mop up a weakened team. Not sure how this works with the powerhouses of Ubers around, but I see that there is some potential.
Don't teach us what is our role as Ubers moderators and leaders. If you can't bear a tier where everything is allowed - quit it. I do understand the concern about Xerneas being really strong but neither you and we know enough of the metagame to even start talking about it. The Ubers metagame, as an ideal, is a tier where absolutely everything is allowed, besides your standard clauses.
Thing is it WAS luck based. Moody Baton Pass teams relied on luck entirely to get the right boosts. And during that test I used firecape's team which had no Baton Pass at all and it was still broken. The concern is legitimate, and I said so in my post too, but the solution is not. Xerneas is nothing like Moody; Xerneas has its disadvantages as in one time boost, prone to priority, and lack of coverage from what we can tell right now. Ho-Oh, Poison Arceus, Scizor, Chansey and Blissey, and maybe even Heatran depending on the coverage move, all beat it. Just because a threat is powerful and hard to check doesn't mean it should be banned (read: Palkia).
Please calm down, I didn't plan to teach anyone anything and it wasn't my intention at all. I only said it out of concern and I answered people wanting to ban Xerneas, because banning Pokemon because of POTENTIAL one move is really controversial (especially in Ubers, where it never happened). It's your decision guys (and potential voters) and I never meant to say otherwise (I said that it depends on you, I have nothing to do with it). You didn't need to be so harsh about it, but if it offended you somehow, then sorry. Yes, I realize that Ubers is metagame where everything is allowed (and I never said otherwise), not counting standard clauses. And I also clearly said that we need to wait and see how it's gonna work out, so actually I was calming people down which were ban happy, because so far (on paper) Geomancy set may be a huge deal especially if it gets Earth Power. And you said Palkia as comparison - Palkia is much easier to revenge kill (the only thing Palkia has to 'increase' her speed is Trick Room) and sets which has no problem with speed (Scarf) are pretty easy to handle as it doesn't have raw power to get through stuff like Chansey or Ferrothorn, while against Specs you can work around with switching on resistances (although Hydro Pump in rain hurts like hell, but there are still water immunities) and offensive teams can easily revenge kill it with base 100 speed (and dragon moves being EVERYWHERE), which is decent, but not great by any standards. While Palkia indeed doesn't have 100% pure counters, she is checkable by anything faster and as long as you have hazards up, stall can deal with her with smart switching (or slap one scarfer if needed which can hit her really hard, preferably with dragon move). I wouldn't really compare Palkia to Xerneas as Palkia have no boosting moves outside of Bulk Up and no way to increase her speed outside of Trick Room and 0 IVs in Speed. And after Geomancy Xerneas is extremely fast (and if his base speed is 99, it may be really hard to find any scarfer which can not only outspeed, but also KO it back) as Fairy is also really damn great defensive typing (weaknesses only to Steel and Poison, types which are... uncommon and meh offensive typings outside of hitting Fairies) and Xerneas is also to make things worse. Being fast enough to outspeed all good scarfers ? Check. Having the ability to 2OHKO technically everything after Geomancy ? Check (even pink blobs won't enjoy +2 Focus Blasts). Having bulk to survive pretty much all hits at good health (and GREAT typing to back it up) ? Check (maybe Choice Band Meteor Mash from Metagross can KO back, I would need to check, but I may safely assume it does). I would say that Geomancy Xerneas looks far more scary then any Palkia set no matter how I look at it as after Geomancy is it far faster, bulkier (especially on special side, and this typing is perfect to take hits) and powerful then Palkia. Psystrike MewTwo is also a nightmare to stop, but 130 speed is still prone to revenge killing (scarfers), decent but not great bulk and there is still stuff which can check it with solid comfort even if it is niche (Dark Arceus, Psychic Arceus). As ironically it sounds Ubers right now is somewhat... balanced, as everything can be somewhat stopped (in more or less effective way).
Yes, it never happened, but without raging, insulting, etc. what would happen if Xerneas indeed ended up unstoppable clearly having not even reliable checks (I don't call counters, as demanding that in Ubers would be somewhat strange, when MewTwo, Rayquaza and Palkia doesn't have those and few others, etc.). With Earth Power so far I see only Specially Defensive Bronzong. Yes it would be precedence and we all want to avoid it (yes, me as well), but if one Pokemon because of one move would totally broke the meta (of course I hate calling ban hammer, especially in Ubers) would you consider it or you would stick to no-ban rule no matter what, even if it ruins somewhat really shaky balance ? I really like Ubers and it's still totally playable meta (even if it is just a ban list without any plans to balance it by any means) with defensive/offensive titans somewhat balancing each other out, no matter how strangely it looks. Please answer calmly, without harsh comments. Thank you. Yes, I said all of this out of concern, as yes, I am worried, that's all, because i like Ubers metagame. Especially if we can't reach the ideal situation which we all hope for.
But as I said - I just speculate, as in the end my concerns may end up as a total fail thing.
EDIT: Point taken and thanks for answer. I won't talk about this anymore, especially as our knowledge about Ubers XY is so limited now.
You implied a Geomancy ban by quoting Melee Mewtwo's dead-on post, and thus deprived the Uber code. I responded offensively indeed, and I apologize for going too offensively, but my stance remains the same towards the topic. My response wasn't directly to you as well, it was a general response to the "ban X statements". If you like the Ubers metagame right now, with all Pokemon in it, you will like it in XY too, with all Pokemon in it, including Xerneas, unless it gets an auto +6 evasion move or shit like that.
In your Xerneas / Palkia comparison you forgot one big key: Xerneas is far more prone to priority and more limited by entry hazards than Palkia, and that makes things much more different.
You have said so yourself - Bronzong and Ho-Oh (and even Lugia) are capable of counterig Xerneas. We don't know what coverage moves does it get, so there may be much more Pokemon to deal with it. What are you worried about? The XY metagame has just begun and a Xerneas ban is already brought up, and yes, that's what makes me fur(a)ious (couldn't resist). You may be speaking for a whole, and thus I speak to you as a candidate of the whole. So tl;dr - sorry for going TOO harsh, but a ban statement so shortly after the metagame release just had to be suppressed.
Let's drop this subject for now and not bring it up ever again, or at least until we figure out XY.
fairy bliss and chans
fairy dragon mega latias
mega fairy dragon zygarde with 800 bst pls all in defenses and hp : )
Chansey still normal gg
Also wth @ people trying to ban Geomancy from Ubers :|
Hmm xerneas gets tbolt, now all it needs is earth power and we're set. Bring out them assault vests.
On another note does gene learn sticky web?