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Discussion in 'Ubers' started by Melee Mewtwo, Sep 11, 2013.
luckily those mons that can take tone edges get hit SE by m2x's stabs.
Zygarde definitely won't be Uber at this rate, even though it can "check" Yveltal and Xerneas. I'm kind of glad... I'm tired of dragon-type legends.
Without Stealth Rocks, Mewtwo X has no chance of OHKOing Yveltal while he OHKOs with Oblivion Wing via Life Orb and gains over 200 HP back. Even if it lives, he still has Sucker Punch.
Defog confirmed to clear all hazards. Stall's totally fucked in every metagame. Gen 6 can go burn in a hole.
EDIT: Nope, I'm wrong. Stall is fine, great even.
I, for one, welcome our new fog-clearing overlords.
Here's a roundup of some of the changes we can expect from this gen.
Assault Vest - There are a lot of potentially great users of Assault Vest in the tier. Although losing status, hazard, recovery, and setup moves is a huge tradeoff, there are many that would rather have the defensive boost I think. Palkia springs to mind as the prime candidate for this item, since it often uses 4 attack sets anyway and it further improves its ability to take on Kyogre and even opens up the possibility of checking CM Arceus (Dragon Tail). If Defog renders Stealth Rock less desirable, Dialga and Tyranitar also seem like great Assault Vesters. I could see even Yveltal forgoing Roost in favor of more immediate bulk to more effectively check Arceus, healing up with Oblivion Wing instead.
Shadow Tag Mega Gengar/Chandelure - These two pokes seem poised to revolutionize the way the tier is played. Anyone that has played DW Ubers knows how insane Chandy is there. Although the Drought nerf this gen could prevent sun from staying up too long, it shouldn't be a problem for Shandelure. Mega Gengar is rather similar to Chandelure. Although it loses out on items and a sun-boosted stab, it makes up for it with huge SpA/Speed and stab sludge bomb, which suddenly became relevant this gen with the likes of Xerneas and Fairy Arceus running around. It is also important to note that both of these pokes can serve as checks to SD Arceus forms since they outspeed and are immune to Extremespeed. These two pokes also make a lot of trapping and U-turn strategies very effective.
Yveltal - Although Ghost Arceus has gotten a huge boost this gen, Yveltal could serve to counteract all of those buffs. Whether it decides to use Roost (yay!) or Assault Vest + Oblivion Wing, it will have solid defenses and good recovery. It appears that Stealth Rock will be more difficult than ever to keep on the field, which is only a good thing for this mon. Not getting Pursuit is a dagger, as that would have given it additional utility as a trapper. Yveltal's release also coincides with Steel's Darkness resistance being revoked (which Flying Yveltal clearly welcomes) and Fairy typing providing a new Darkness resistance. Unlike Darkrai, Yveltal has a secondary stab that really helps wreck those Fairy types.
Xerneas - There has been a lot of hype recently about Geomancy Xerneas, but I think it is mostly unfounded. Yes, the mere existence of such a powerful threat could lead to an increase in (Mega) Scizor/Lucario usage. However, Mega Gengar and the aforementioned pokes among others (Arceus Poison/Normal) will serve as a huge road block to potential Xerneas sweeps. Spending an entire turn doing nothing in a metagame full of the most powerful threats ever seems like a risky proposition. The mere existence of Fairy types in the tier could lead to a reduction in the amount of Dragon Tail in the metagame, which is a welcome change in my opinion. Xerneas (Especially an Assault Vest variant) also serves as a check to Darkrai once sleep clause is active. Sleep Talk might be a staple on choice sets. However, the existence of Fairy could also lead many pokes to try new coverage options. For example, Dialga and Darkrai might adopt Flash Cannon (more likely) and Sludge Bomb (maybe not). In general, I think that non-Geomancy sets are being severely underrated while Geomancy is very overrated.
Fairy Arceus - Part of the reason that some Xerneas sets are underrated is that Fairy Arceus will do non-Assault Vest defensive sets much better than Xerneas thanks to Recover. Fairy has a lot of good coverage options, so it will be interesting to see what moves SD/CM Fairy Arceus choose going forward.
Mega Mewtwo X and Y - At first glance the new formes seem insane, but on second thought I'm not sure that Mewtwo has the physical movepool or needs the speed boost enough to welcome these additions. Life Orb could very well be better, but time will tell. The reduction in physical bulk could be bad for Y, but one Life Orb recoil probably has the same effect. Insomnia is pretty nice, but you would have to have Mega Evolved already and Mewtwo isn't really known for switching in easily. I expect Mega Mewtwo Y to be the one that makes waves but 194 Attack shouldn't be underestimated.
Defog boost - Defog Scizor and Latias seem very viable at first glance, but I don't think that the learnset has been entirely confirmed. If this has any kind of decent distribution the change will resonate in the Ubers tier, which has long been dominated by hazard stacking + ghost combinations. Magic Bounce is rumored to stop defog now. It is possible that the spinner/ghost game becomes a thing of the past and is replaced by a Taunt/Magic Coat/Magic Bounce defense but that seems like a losing battle. It seems more likely that the significance of hazards will just be greatly reduced.
1 Kyogre - has nerfed rain and Assault Vest creates new rivals, especially improved Palkia and Dialga among others. The rain nerf doesn't have an effect on the way Choice Ogre variants are played, but it does greatly affect team building as Swift Swimmers become a lot more shaky. In general the weather war seems much less significant, although five turns is a lot of time in a tier this powerful.
2 Arceus - It appears that Normal Arceus usage can only suffer from the developments of this gen due to Chandelure and Mega Gengar revenge kills and potentially Aegislash making coverage more difficult. However, if Xerneas turns out to be the real deal Ekiller will be an important revenge killer. This might be a silly thought, but Chesnaught could check Ekiller decently as well, although I doubt it can kill it in one hit without prior damage.
3 Mewtwo - The potential for mewtwo to have 194 attack or special attack is quite scary and makes Mewtwo all the more difficult to switch into. He will continue to be a huge player, but might be kept down by all of the revenge killers aimed at Xerneas.
4 Darkrai - This generation is definitely a net negative for Darkrai. The new neutrality of Dark on Steel does not counteract the new (old?) sleep mechanics or the introduction of a type that walls Dark/Fighting. I expect an increase in the number of Sub Darkrai and a reduction in the Nasty Plot + two attacks variants.
5 Groudon - Groudon likely got better this gen. Assault Vest is a great tool that will allow it to match up better against the likes of Dialga. Although Drought suffered the same nerf as Drizzle, there was a lot less Chlorophyll in the metagame than Swift Swim, and Kyogre tended to survive longer anyway, so it is nice that sun teams won't have to worry about permanent rain ruining their day. Defensive Groudon variants will likely rise in usage since they act as mediocre but necessary checks to SD Ghost Arceus.
6 Palkia - I've said this a lot already, but Assault Vest is a huge boon to Palkia. It always wants the ability to bluff a choice scarf, but Haban Berry, Expert Belt, and Lustrous Orb are not that enticing. As a Dragon that has a great secondary stab with which to hit Fairies, Dragon Tail might be an option to utilize Palkia's new bulk.
7 Genesect - Losing two resistances hurts, no doubt. Although this is still one of the best revenge killers in the metagame, Xerneas will put a lot of pressure on people to slot Scizor instead, and Defog could be too harmful to momentum-based strategies. The introduction of Shadow Tag Chandelure into the metagame also creates a lot of tension for Genesect. It can't be caught using a coverage move if Chandy is alive.
8 Dialga - Say hello to one of the only Dragon types with a secondary typing that will make Fairy types think twice before switching in. Assault Vest is a welcome addition for Dialga, as it often relied on its resistances and bulk. Flash Cannon slots nicely into the place held by Stealth Rock in previous gens. Speaking of resistances, this is another mon that loses out on a Ghost and Dark resist. It already couldn't switch in on Focus Blast Ghosteus variants or SD Ghost Arceus, so the change isn't that big of a deal. However, it can no longer afford to switch into Judgment/Fire Blast variants.
9 Lugia - If Defog lives up to the hype, this is one of the best pokemon to take advantage of a rockless field. However, SD Ghost Arceus is poised to be the most prominent physical threat in the metagame, and that Ghost weakness hurts. Mega Gengar and Chandelure are also new Ghosts coming to the party that make Lugia's life hell on the special side, so Lugia is probably not poised for a comeback this gen.
10 Rayquaza - Again, this mon really appreciates a hazardless environment, so it will be interesting to see if Rayquaza sets evolve to take advantage of the new metagame, perhaps using more Draco Meteor sets. The Fairy type REALLY hurts Rayquaza, as it was fond of spamming one Dragon attack or another and doesn't have a great coverage option for Fairies either.
I'll analyze the rest of the top 50 Ubers in the new metagame when I get back home.
Just posting to say Shadow Tag Chandelure does not exist in X/Y, its (obtainable) hidden ability is Infiltrator now.
Thanks for the clarification Fireburn. I will sleep better tonight knowing I don't have to worry about Shadow Tag Chandelure in Ubers. Ignore all of the points in my last post about Chandy I guess.
More interesting new mons that I missed:
Mega Lucario: I mentioned this one a bit in my last post but didn't give it a seperate mention. Adaptability Close Combat is monstrously powerful, but I mostly expect this mon to be useful for doing a number to +2 Xerneas with Bullet Punch. It would be awesome to see an uptick in Wobbuffet usage to reform the improved Lucario/Wobb pairing that was first popularized by Theorymon in Gen 4. Hopefully Encore mechanics go back to the way they were to help accommodate this development.
Mega Tyranitar/Assault Vest Tyranitar: Both of these mons have absolutely monster defenses and pursuing Defog Latias opens a team up for hazard stacking and Kyogre wallbreaking all in one fell swoop. Did I mention that a healthy Assault Vest Tar can get rid of Mega Gengar in a pinch? These guys are also some of the only things that even remotely resemble a Ho oh check. Yes, Sand Storm is nerfed and the main reason to set it up (anti-weather, Excadrill) are both less important in the metagame, but Tyranitar is the type of pokemon that defies the odds.
Mega Garchomp - Not sure if this will be a thing in the new generation since Garchomp itself has all but vanished from the tier, but +100 base stats makes just about anything worthy of reconsideration. Mega Garchomp will have to serve a different role than Garchomp used to as a scarfer. It luckily still has a speed creepy 92 speed to work with and the combination of Ground/Dragon is still very scary despite the introduction of Fairy. Unfortunately there is a lot of competition among Megas this generation and Mega Garchomp is unlikely to make the cut.
11 (Mega) Blaziken This thing honestly seems terrifying. It will have to compete with other mega evolutions for a spot, but that is only a quantum of solace to me. 100 base speed is on the faster side in Ubers, or at least plenty enough to force switches and gain that speed boost. Being resistant to Bullet Punch is a huge bonus as well, since that will likely be a widely used method of revenge killing in the new meta. An expected rise in Ho oh usage might help keep this mon down, and Giratina/Giratina-O can keep it in line to an extent as well.
12 Giratina-O Not being able to spam Dragon Tail as much hurts, but being able to more easily bust out Shadow Force without worry is probably worth it. This is the type of pokemon that always manages to find niches and I don't expect it to go away anytime soon. Ghosts are in a strange place with the release of Defog, as they might not be as necessary defensively but have become better offensively.
13 Arceus-Ghost Being able to more easily spam Shadow Force/Judgment is quite insane, however this mon is also very easily revenged by Mega Gengar, especially if A-G runs Shadow Force. The Swords Dance set is arguably better than the Calm Mind set now because of Yveltal. Both sets might need to explore new coverage options (Thunder?), although Sucker Punch will be an issue regardless.
14 Ferrothorn I'm not unhappy to say that this guy got shat on in this gen. Losing two resistances is huge, and the position of hazards in the new metagame is tenuous at best. This is also one of the mons that is hardest hit by the loss of permanent Drizzle, since it really enjoyed the weakness reduction. Not being able to utilize Assault Vest all that well also is a strict downside. Everything else has gotten much more powerful and Ferro is still the same old Ferro. it is still very good at checking certain mons in the tier and is comparatively better off than similar mons like Ferro or Skarmory, but is definitely not in a good place this generation.
15 Ho-oh Based on the assumption that Defog is the real deal, Ho oh got a hell of a lot better. it was hard enough to keep Big Bird down last gen when Stealth Rocks and Ghosts were omnipresent and spinning was a pipe dream. In this generation Ho oh stands to be one of the most dominant threats in the tier. Ho oh cannot be revenged all that easily by Mega Gengar or Bullet Punch (or much of anything for that matter) and has even gained a new resistance to Fairy that may be useful at times. It is also one of the few checks to CM Ghost Arceus. I firmly believe that sun has gained more in this generation than it has lost.
16 Giratina was always used before as arguably the sturdiest spinblocker, but now it must make it onto teams solely based on its defensive merit and I don't think it makes the cut. Dragon Tail no longer being able to hit everything is a huge downside for Giratina and it isn't in a great position to take advantage of Ghost's improved offensive prowess. One could say that Giratina is a ghost of its former self.
17 Forretress Again, assuming Defog creates a huge paradigm shift in the new metagame, Forretress is among the hardest hit by the change. It is now not all that useful as a hazard layer or spinner. Forretress' Dark and Ghost resistances were arguably the two most important behind Dragon, as it would often set up on Ghosts and Darkrai among others. The Dragon resistance isn't even all that unique or useful anymore with the advent of Fairies. An expected increase in Scizor usage will also repel this bug from the tier.
18 Deoxys Attack Why use Deoxys Attack when Mewtwo's new formes have better offensive stats, are less predictable upon first encounter, and don't have paper thin defenses either? The mixed attacking aspect isn't that useful when Psystrike is taken into account so basically you will use Deoxys-A for the ability to equip focus sash and use hazards. This might be an okay niche but expect Deoxys-A's usage to be diminished moving forward. Did I mention that there is likely to be more Bullet Punch (Mega) Scizor/Lucario this gen? Those are not exactly Deoxys A's two best friends.
19 Kyurem-White It will be tough to defend the use of this pokemon when Ho oh is losing the only thing that kept it down (SR weakness) and makes a pretty solid check/scout to many K-W sets to boot. With that being said, K-W hasn't lost anything this gen either. Being resistant to Water is always very welcome but probably not a great justification for slotting this on a team.
20 Deoxys Speed - You can't really Defog against this guy so it might continue to do its thing regardless, but the power of Deoxys Speed is very closely related to how easy it is to get rid of the hazards it kills itself to get up. If momentum teams are still very much a thing and the Defogalypse doesn't come to fruition then we might continue to see this mon.
Just a few comments :p
Tyranitar: This is a really cool mon but sadly we don't have Soul Dew yet and we can't transfer it with Pokebank. That, plus the death of suicide leads, really kills the niche he had. Although, he does at least for Mega Gengar to throw up a Substitute when evolving and his typing is also really good for Yveltal.
Blaziken: Don't forget Baton Pass! Mind you, it looks like the metagame might slow down some but it's still another blow against HO teams as Blaziken can just Baton Pass his way out of any checks and pass those Speed boosts along as well.
Ferrothorn: I wouldn't say everything got stronger, just that everything Ferrothorn had going for it got striped from him.
Ho-Oh: With SR easy to get rid of this guy will definitely be a menace. However, I think the metagame can adapt to pressuring him more much like what teams had to do with Palkia in BW2. Defog also clears up the risk of being spikes fodder so you have more room on your movesets to stick Stone Edge or something. Also, I'm not entirely sure this makes sun teams stronger. I feel weather teams in general will disappear seeing as it only lasts 5 turns. (not saying people will stop using the weather starters, just that teams won't be built with the goal of profiting from the weather much anymore)
Giratina: I wouldn't dismiss him just yet, he also has Defog and is still one of the few Kyogre checks out there. RestTalk got a lot better and Giratina doesn't have to worry about being giant Spikes fodder anymore, either.
Kyurem-w: I wouldn't say he hasn't lost anything, there are Dragon-type immune Fairy-types around now which is a bummer to the old Kyurem-w plan of click Specs Draco Meteor for instant profit.
Just a question, is Soul Dew currently unobtainable like it was in BW1?
Yes, as even whit the Pokébank you can't transfer it from BW2. Latios and Latias were seen crying in a corner.
Actually i find hilarious people saying "Ho-oh/Lugia/Lati@s/Giratina-O/Rayquaza/Skymin/Yveltal is now better because he's immune to Sticky Web". Why in the earth would you waste your time in Ubers whit Galvantula(not to mention Ariados, Masquerain, Shuckle and non Smashpassing Smeargle) when you can have similar effects just running a reliable paralysis spreader like Groudon or Kyogre?
Gengar (M) @ Gengarite
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
I like to call this set 'GG meta'. I've tinkered with this a bit in BW (Leftovers over Gengarite), but 110 was just a little bit too slow for this set to work. Fortunately, mega evos have been amazing for Gengar. Not only does he now have base 130 speed, but he also gets Shadow Tag, which just goes hand in hand with this set. SubDisable is pretty simple, Sub on anything that may harm you and then proceed to disable it so you can freely kill or whatever.
Consider the sets that this Gengar beats:
Ghostceus: One of the biggest threats in the game and easily trapped and slaughtered. It commonly only runs Judgment and Focus Blast for coverage (Shadow Claw, Brick Break and ExtremeSpeed for physical variants), which means he can't touch you after Judgment has been Disabled.
Darkrai: I know some obscure variants run Ice beam, but for the most part you only see Dark Pulse and Focus Blast, which is easy pickings for this Gengar set.
Ekiller: You do lose out on Earthquake variants as Gengar forfeits Levitate for Shadow Tag, but you still do beat sets that rely on Brick Break for steels. Obviously Band and Recover variants die as well.
Fightceus: Judgment and Toxic do nothing, while Ice Beam can be Disabled. Unfortunately, he does not have a Ghost weakness like Ghostceus, so Fightceus may be able to survive with CMs depending on how the crits fall.
Blaziken: Provided you predict correctly, you can Disable Flare Blitz. Conversely, you may end up Disabling Swords Dance, so you may be facing a +2 Atk and +2 Speed Blaziken.
Ferrothorn/Forretress: As they only run one atking move, they be stopped from damaging you. However, they can still Spike stack, while you kill them.
Jirachi: Variants that only run Iron Head can be stopped easily and can't Spike stack unlike Forre and Ferro, but he can leave Gengar paralysed if Jirachi runs Twave/Thunder.
Any Band/Specs set: This should be obvious why.
Situationally, Scarf sets: If you can get a Sub up before the Scarfer comes in (which isn't difficult look above), you can disable them similarly to Band and Scarf sets.
While these are the only (lol only) sets he can actively set up on, don't be thinking these are his only uses. He can easily trap and kill weakened Latias, Lugia or Gira that are walling your pokemon or spin blocking you in the case of Gira. This means you will no longer be able to put Spdef Latias/Gira on a team and consider Kyogre covered.
Passive Damage: Unlike many other SubDisablers, Mega Gengar cannot carry leftovers, so he has 4 Subs max. Due to Hazards and Sand, more realistically you will get 3 Subs. This can somewhat be mitigated with Wish support from the likes of Chansey and Defog/Spin Support.
Volt Switch/U Turn: Users who are strong enough to break Gengars Sub can be particularly annoying as they cant be trapped, but I don't think any U Turn users can break Gengar's sub thanks to his x4 resistance to Bug. Volt Switch users also aren't particularly common in Ubers, bar Zekrom who is predominantly a special atker.
Anyway, overall I'm keen to see how the meta changes or abuse the shit out of this set if it doesn't.
Yeah, Mega Gengar kinda has to run Substitute in Pokebank since that one turn of no Shadow Tag allows something like Assualt Vest Ttar come in to Pursuit trap. I'm just not sure if it's worth running Disable or an extra coverage move in the last slot. Scarf Genesect will be really good with Gengar which is why I think I'd prefer an extra coverage move to hit U-turn switch ins, like Fairies, than Disable shenanigans as cute as they are. (even more deadly cause the guy can't switch out :( )
Sludge Bomb is much better than Focus Blast. Steels no longer resists Shadow Ball, and the poison chance+ability to destroy faires is better than missing moves with a frail mon.
ah right totally forgot about the changes of type effectiveness
sludge bomb is probably better than focus blast and i have changed the set
Mega Gengar can also run Thunder or Dazzling Gleam as coverage options in place of Disable. Gleam is a bit more powerful than Shadow Ball when super effective (has a chance of 1-shotting Palkia) and Thunder is good against Kyogre (doesn't kill even offensive variants though) and has a good chance of 2HKOing Ho-oh on the switch if you are looking for a lure. It also nails Yveltal if you can prevent a Sucker Punch. Focus Blast doesn't kill Extremekiller or Ferrothorn or Dialga in a single hit, so it probably isn't worth using.