XY NU Theorymon Discussion

[Franklyna]

Lol it isn't flinching anything to death (40 Speed). Regardless, Togetic can be an interesting ParaFlinching special wall I guess, especially with Heal Bell, Roost, Encore, and Newfound Good Typing. That being said, I feel that Stealth Rock still proves to be a major hinderence, but This could be interesting.

With Defog support, Togetic should fare pretty well in the NU environment. Despite the low HP, it's surprisingly bulky with full investment in HP and Defense and an equipped eviolite.

How about Quilladin? I think his viability in NU is pretty dubious, but I want him to be useful because his design is adorable (gotta be honest here; I think he's so much better looking than Chesnaught). Augmented with Eviolite, he should be bulky physically (base 95 defense), and his great ability in Bulletproof patches up his low special defense somewhat. The standard Haunter set with Shadow Ball and Sludge Bomb couldn't touch him, for example. There are some gems in his movepool, too - Bulk Up, Pain Split, Leech Seed, Roar, Swords Dance, Belly Drum, Spikes, and semi-reliable recovery in Synthesis.

The low HP and disappointing offensive stats are a downer, though.

 

[HispanicPanic]

Since NotBruceWayne brought up how well Mushy will fare in XY NU, I'll talk a bit about that.

Last gen, Musharna was consistently one of the bigger threats in the meta, most because of its bulk, recovery, and pivoting abilities. Now with the rise of things like Knock Off and the general rise of offensive Dark-types, Mushy might have a bit more trouble this gen. Shiftry is most definitely going to see a rise in usage as has been mentioned before because its STAB got so much better. It doesn't really fear anything that Musharna can throw at it, besides status and the occasional Signal Beam(this is still pretty rare). Even its biggest enemy from last gen, Skuntank, is most likely going to become more prevalent because of the added utility of its Knock Off and Defog. Not only Dark-types threaten it, but even Dark-type coverage will rise mostly due to the Knock Off buff. Musharna can no longer come effortlessly into Sawk nor even Zangoose(although it didn't really like taking a Orb boosted Facade before) because of the threat of Knock Off. All of this looks like it will limit Mushy's abilities to bounce in and out like it did in the past generation. Defensively, Aromatisse seems like the better option, as it resists both Dark and Fighting, can't be Taunt'd or Encore'd due to Aroma Veil, and can even Wish pass to its teammates.

Although, Musharna still has quite a solid niche on offensive teams. Mushy still has noticeably better than Aromatisse, and while Aromatisse can cost you some momentum, Musharna has tools in both Yawn and Baton Pass to keep momentum on your side which is something that Aromatisse can't do at all. While Mushy's typing may not be as great as it was in BW, there's still nothing that can do its Support Pivot set quite as well as it can barring Togetic who does give it competition this gen.

 

[Brawlfest]

Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Sword
- Iron Head
- Shadow Sneak / Autotomize
- Swords Dance

Because fuck musharna. If we get Doublade (I doubt it), this will most certainly be its flagship set, running through the tier with absurdly massive physical bulk and respectable special bulk, allowing it to easily set up and run through what is a heavily offensive metagame. Shadow Sneak allows it to outpace with priority, while a double dance set allows it to become an immediate threat dependant on the situation. Doublade checks so many of NU's best threats so well it is unbelievable.

252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 138-164 (42.8 - 50.9%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sawk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 150-178 (46.5 - 55.2%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Skuntank Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 108-128 (33.5 - 39.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Dread Plate Liepard Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 116-138 (36 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Combusken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 138-164 (42.8 - 50.9%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO

Absurd setup opportunities from strong STAB attacks and SE attacks that Doublade can tank. It takes advantage of this even further when taking on average non-SE physical attacks. Monstrous.

 

[HispanicPanic]

Just a nitpick about one of your calcs, Brawlfest. Zangoose would probably be running Knock Off instead Night Slash, so I would run that calc instead.

 

[Pancham]

Lol it isn't flinching anything to death (40 Speed). Regardless, Togetic can be an interesting ParaFlinching special wall I guess, especially with Heal Bell, Roost, Encore, and Newfound Good Typing. That being said, I feel that Stealth Rock still proves to be a major hinderence, but This could be interesting.

Thunder Wave alleviates its speed issues against most threats, ground- and electric-types being the only things not threatened. The changed Defog mechanics also make her SR weakness not much of a major hinderance, as many viable pokemon in NU's arsenal has it, including Skuntank(!!!!!!!). Honestly, I can see Togetic becoming the premier Sp wall of the tier, due to phenomenal typing, phenomenal bulk, and many other factors, it can also switch into some weaker physical attacks thanks to Eviolite (and, again, typing).

As for your Doublade post, Doublade will very likely fall into RU, I hope at least... Maybe it will be like Golurk, and drop later. :'(

 

[HispanicPanic]

Thunder Wave alleviates its speed issues against most threats, ground- and electric-types being the only things not threatened. The changed Defog mechanics also make her SR weakness not much of a major hinderance, as many viable pokemon in NU's arsenal has it, including Skuntank(!!!!!!!). Honestly, I can see Togetic becoming the premier Sp wall of the tier, due to phenomenal typing, phenomenal bulk, and many other factors, it can also switch into some weaker physical attacks thanks to Eviolite (and, again, typing).

As for your Doublade post, Doublade will very likely fall into RU, I hope at least... Maybe it will be like Golurk, and drop later. :'(

Just regarding Togetic, I think Thunder Wave might be an inferior option next to Yawn. Togetic can run a very similar set to pivot Musharna's by running Yawn / Baton Pass / Roost / Dazzling Gleam. Considering that its typing resists more physical threats (Fighting, Dark, Bug, Dragon), a spread like pivot Musharna's current EV spread could really work. Yawn either puts something to sleep, or forces something out which lets you then Baton Pass out to something else. This takes advantage of Togetic's low speed because pretty much everything appreciates a slow pivot. Roost obviously keeps you healthy and Dazzling Gleam just keeps you from being Taunt bait. I just think this pivot set for Togetic would be much more effective than an annoyer set relying on T-wave and Serene Grace.

 

[Pancham]

Just regarding Togetic, I think Thunder Wave might be an inferior option next to Yawn. Togetic can run a very similar set to pivot Musharna's by running Yawn / Baton Pass / Roost / Dazzling Gleam. Considering that its typing resists more physical threats (Fighting, Dark, Bug, Dragon), a spread like pivot Musharna's current EV spread could really work. Yawn either puts something to sleep, or forces something out which lets you then Baton Pass out to something else. This takes advantage of Togetic's low speed because pretty much everything appreciates a slow pivot. Roost obviously keeps you healthy and Dazzling Gleam just keeps you from being Taunt bait. I just think this pivot set for Togetic would be much more effective than an annoyer set relying on T-wave and Serene Grace.

Honestly, that is an amazing idea I overlooked. I completely forgot Togetic learned Baton Pass, allowing it to pivot. That idea is pretty amazing. Basically, it gives competition to Musharna, and might even outclass it due to its superior defensive typing.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

Honestly I don't see Defog becoming a really big thing next gen. Firstly, if we look at BW NU, the tier never really had problems with entry hazards and spinners were hardly needed (granted, they're bad). I don't see Defog becoming big especially when Charizard, the largest threat that came close to needing spin support, is gone. In addition, most of the current defoggers either suck or don't really have a moveslot to spare. Skuntank, for instance, can fit in Defog but has to sacrifice an important move to do so. Golbat can fit it in but then it can't fit on any team and also has to give up a stallbreaking role by sacrificing Toxic or Taunt. Shiftry can probably fit it in but I'd honestly rather attack if I get a free turn unless the opponent has already stacked spikes all over me. As with last gen, and especially without Scolipede this gen, hazards don't sound like a huge problem enough to make Defog a huge thing and even then I'd really only use Defog if my team is extremely weak to it because of the opportunity cost in using it.

Also, Defiant Primeape sounds cool now to switch into Defog

 

[HAKR]

Is Charizard gone? Are you sure that it isnt just the mega stones that is banned from UU and lower? Because apart from the mega evos Charizard havent got any upgrades, or am i way out there?

 

[scorpdestroyer]

Is Charizard gone? Are you sure that it isnt just the mega stones that is banned from UU and lower? Because apart from the mega evos Charizard havent got any upgrades, or am i way out there?

Pokemon are tiered based on usage, and only those too powerful for a usage tier are banned. Mega Charizardites aren't broken in OU (not deemed to be yet), and usage is based on the Charizard usage, not the Mega usage. Hence because Charizard alone gets enough usage to be OU, it definitely will be staying there unless they ban the mega stones.

 

[HAKR]

But Charizard itself is not too strong for NU, or? It is just the mega evos that would make him OP in the lower tiers. Because if we wont be able to use him in NU because he is used for his mega evos in OU i think that is a flawed system (At least in this case) since Charizard without the mega evos isnt OU worthy, or? Couldnt they just ban the Charizardites from UU and lower and then we can use Charizard in NU? :S

 

[scorpdestroyer]

They aren't even UU so they can't ban it there because it doesn't make sense. Even if they could the normal Charizard formes still get enough OU usage to remain in OU and the normal formes are needed to Mega Evolve anyway. It isn't a flawed system imo because it's really the easiest and least complex way to do it because Smogon uses usage stats and as long as the base forme gets enough usage in a higher tier, it will remain there. Going around with banning Charizardite and then allowing non-Megas in NU while its still used a lot in OU is just very complex and confusing. It was the same with Meloetta and Meloetta-P last gen: you had to use Meloetta to get to Meloetta-P, so we just used the statistics for Meloetta to keep things simple. Also, remember that we can't base tierlists on subjective opinions: just because I want Charizard in NU means I can unban it here, because at that point it's hard to draw the line as we could easily go with stuff like unbanning Diggersby without Huge Power in UU, Jynx without Lovely Kiss, etc.

Charizard was very strong in NU last gen, it was considered for suspect but was never actually suspected. It probably got better this gen though even discounting Megas, with Fairies to switch into and Defog support.

Anyway Charizard isn't dropping to UU, much less NU, unless the stones get banned from OU, so let's move on from this discussion shall we :)

 

[NotBruceWayne]

Defog would be a plus for any team though. The only good spinners NU had were Wartortle and Torkoal so most of the time, you had to play with hazards. Maybe Spikes would be run less with Scolipede leaving the tier.

Anyway, Shiftry could probably be the best Defog user in the tier. It can be somewhat like what the Latis are in OU in UU respectively, maybe. Some kind of offensive Defogger who can nail common rock setters in the tier like Golem and Probopass for super effective damage. I was thinking 252 Atk / 252 Spd with Knock Off / Defog / Seed Bomb / Low Kick. Maybe a special set would work too. It lacks recovery though so it probably won't get many opportunities to switch in and as scorpdestroyer said, Primeape would love to come in on Defog and get that sweet +2 and hit with a hard U-turn or CC.

I saw that Politoed was mentioned a few posts back and forgive this question because I believe this has been asked a lot of times but will auto weather be banned and stuff? Because Swift Swimmers like Ludicolo and Beartic are going to love Politoed (if it does fall to NU).

 

[Franklyna]

Anyway, Shiftry could probably be the best Defog user in the tier. It can be somewhat like what the Latis are in OU in UU respectively, maybe. Some kind of offensive Defogger who can nail common rock setters in the tier like Golem and Probopass for super effective damage. I was thinking 252 Atk / 252 Spd with Knock Off / Defog / Seed Bomb / Low Kick. Maybe a special set would work too. It lacks recovery though so it probably won't get many opportunities to switch in and as scorpdestroyer said, Primeape would love to come in on Defog and get that sweet +2 and hit with a hard U-turn or CC.

Assuming Ninetales drops down to NU, with auto-weather allowed, Shiftry looks like an even more attractive Defogger with access to Chlorophyll.

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

I wonder if Sand Stream will be banned this gen. It was banned in UU last gen, and now that it's not permanent, what would sand be like this gen?

 

[scorpdestroyer]

Guys, Drizzle and Drought are banned in UU. That means it affects NU too... and it's the only reason why I said Politoed and Ninetales are gonna be garbage.

Assuming RU doesn't ban sand, I don't think NU will really get much benefits. The only sand user in NU right now is Stoutland (maybe Sandslash too). However, Hippopotas is kinda garbage since it needs Eviolite to survive anything and if it doesn't run Smooth Rock, its teammates only get 3 turns to do anything. That's assuming of course that it directly switches into its teammate which is easy to predict and play around. I don't think Sand will be very viable, at most it will be some fun gimmick.

Also I hope DTC and Raseri don't mind us straying... quite far from what the OP gave us.

 

[Pancham]

I think the addition of Defog is huge, overall. Due to Defog, Sandlsash and even Claydol have the possibility of dropping down to NU. Claydol last gen, even while it was RU, was agreed to be pretty terrible in whatevertier it was in. However, the bad players used Claydol oftenly due to it resisting Stealth Rock and being immune to the rest of entry hazards. (When Claydol was RU, I remember people talking about how awful Claydol and even Sandlash were) However, I do see your point, but Articuno in NU sounds like a lot of fun with its new toy in Freeze Dry It also it still has Hurricane which is nice. I've been considering using Articuno for a while now.

Here are some calcs signifying the wrath of Articuno

252 SpA Articuno Freeze Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Alomomola: 344-408 (64.4 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Articuno Freeze Dry vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Seismitoad: 324-384 (78.2 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Articuno Freeze Dry vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Quagsire: 348-412 (88.3 - 104.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Articuno Freeze Dry vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ludicolo: 268-316 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Articuno Freeze Dry vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Wartortle: 114-134 (35.4 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Articuno Freeze Dry vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD Eviolite Wartortle: 134-158 (41.7 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Articuno Freeze Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Samurott: 248-294 (62.9 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Articuno Freeze Dry vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Carracosta: 264-312 (91 - 107.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Articuno Freeze Dry vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Carracosta: 264-312 (75.2 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Articuno Freeze Dry vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gorebyss: 236-278 (93.6 - 110.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Articuno Freeze Dry vs. 252 HP / 192+ SpD Braviary: 170-204 (42 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

As you can see, Articuno gives no shits about nothing, the only really downside of using Freeze Dry over Ice Beam is not hitting bulky Flying-types as hard, though this isn't as important with the loss of the bulkiest Flying-type in Mandibuzz (Good Riddance to this bitch), and Hurricane hits Articuno harder anyway. Also, as you saw in my long wall of calcs, Freeze Dry still 2HKOs Sub+BU Braviary already, after SR or prior damage.

EDIT: I just realized I've been planning on using a ton of bird-mons this gen in NU (Togetic and Articuno most notably)

 

[HispanicPanic]

I kinda think Scorp is underselling Defog as a whole. Yeah, we don't have that many users that aren't flyers, but the things that do (Skuntank and Shiftry) are pretty decent. We have a few defensive mons weak to rocks (Golbat, Articuno, Togetic) that really appreciate them off the field to help them take hits, not to mention it stops Spike stacking that dominated last gen. Granted, Spike stacking is less spammable due to Scolipede leaving, but due to Defog we finally have an efficient and decently distributed way to remove hazards. Swellow and Braviary really appreciate rocks off the field too, so they can come in and out as they please and more freely use Brave Bird. Honestly, while hazards aren't that much of a problem in NU, Defog still can be useful on teams that rely on a few things that are weak to rocks mostly defensive mons.

 

[NotBruceWayne]

Braviary does get Defiant. It would be a pretty good switch in to an incoming Defog because it can punch holes with at +2. I've been theorymoning a bit and maybe, just maybe, a SubSalac set could work. Switch in on an incoming Defog, setup a Sub on the switch and start wrecking stuff with +2 Attack and +1 Speed if you get down to berry range of course.

SR could still be just as used as it was last gen. Golem and Golurk are two rock setters that come to mind. Shiftry muscles past both of those with ease with Grass and Dark stabs. Skuntank could trap Golurk if it doesn't carry EQ. Both could be really good Defoggers this gen. But as I said in my last post, Shiftry will be the best Defogger IMO

 

[Mistrals]

Well, I'd be very suprised if we don't get Snover's snow warning allowed in gen 6. Not that it's useful for anything lol

Another drop that'll most likely happen is Hitmonchan. It's looking like a less bulky Gurdurr with only iron fist and it can spin. Not exactly impressive.

If Drapion falls to NU, which is possible, it could quite possibly give Skuntank some competition, as it has the same typing and offensive abillities as well as pursuit, and knock off, something Skuntank only dreams of. Most likely with that high speed it could be doing some kind of sub salac swords dance sweeper or something that would be effective as well.

Dusknoir probably falls. Like it should have eons ago. And it's useless compared to Golurk honestly, as it's outclassed offensively and on a similar defensive level too. Not exactly looking like it can shine.

A few other possible drops are Poliwrath, normal Rotom and Bouffalant.

 

[Franklyna]

Until Arceus decides to make Adaptibility Dragalge legal (please?), he'll probably be bumming around NU or RU for quite a while. She has a nice movepool for a Choice Specs set, and a pretty good typing, too. I dunno.

Dragalge @ Choic Specs
Ability: Poison Point
EVs: 252 HP/252 SAtk/4SDef
Nature: Modest
Draco Meteor
Thunderbolt
Sludge Wave
Focus Blast/Scald/HP Fire or Ground

 

[Kanwe]

Braviary does get Defiant. It would be a pretty good switch in to an incoming Defog because it can punch holes with at +2. I've been theorymoning a bit and maybe, just maybe, a SubSalac set could work. Switch in on an incoming Defog, setup a Sub on the switch and start wrecking stuff with +2 Attack and +1 Speed if you get down to berry range of course.

SR could still be just as used as it was last gen. Golem and Golurk are two rock setters that come to mind. Shiftry muscles past both of those with ease with Grass and Dark stabs. Skuntank could trap Golurk if it doesn't carry EQ. Both could be really good Defoggers this gen. But as I said in my last post, Shiftry will be the best Defogger IMO

While the SubSalac Braviary set sounds interesting, it'll also be very easily revenge killed by the likes of Skuntank and any priority user, really. Especially if Jynx drops, we'll definitely see a rise in priority abusers.

Also there's no reason not to run EQ on Golurk, lol

 

[NotBruceWayne]

While the SubSalac Braviary set sounds interesting, it'll also be very easily revenge killed by the likes of Skuntank and any priority user, really. Especially if Jynx drops, we'll definitely see a rise in priority abusers.

Also there's no reason not to run EQ on Golurk, lol

I wish the NU ladders are up so I could really test the set. I tried the SubSalac Braviary on UU and had disappointing results. I ran 252 Atk / 160 Spd / 96 HP which was enough to outspeed Latias after Salac boost. But the problem was that LO Draco Meteor from Latias brings Braviary down to where he can't set up a Sub anymore. I'll probably give it another shot once the tier is already formed

 

[Brawlfest]

I wish the NU ladders are up so I could really test the set. I tried the SubSalac Braviary on UU and had disappointing results. I ran 252 Atk / 160 Spd / 96 HP which was enough to outspeed Latias after Salac boost. But the problem was that LO Draco Meteor from Latias brings Braviary down to where he can't set up a Sub anymore. I'll probably give it another shot once the tier is already formed

SubSalac Braviary honestly fails. It absolutely needs Brave Bird to have any distinct power, and by running it it immediatly is put in a position where it has 1 hit to make after reaching it's salac. When using Return, you miss out on a lot of KO's, and are completely walled by ghosts.

 

[NotBruceWayne]

SubSalac Braviary honestly fails. It absolutely needs Brave Bird to have any distinct power, and by running it it immediatly is put in a position where it has 1 hit to make after reaching it's salac. When using Return, you miss out on a lot of KO's, and are completely walled by ghosts.

I ran Return, Brave Bird and Superpower. I wasn't actually that bad but yeah, I think you're right about SubSalac failing. There were some instances during those matches that I wish it was holding a different item. But after all that, I'll still try it out once the ladders go up.