A guaranteed kill is not something to be played down not to mention that on many occasions it nets more than one kill as well as having great coverage.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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The lati-twins are simply not as good as they once were. They lose to 3 out of the 5 S-Rank mons and the addition of the Fairy-type make them have even greater 4MSS then they previously did. The popularity of Moves like Shadow Ball, Knock off, and U-Turn doesn't help either. That being said, these two Pokemon are still excellent checks to some of the biggest threats in the metagame, still have that powerful Draco Meteor threatening a large portion of the tier, and still have excellent Speed and Bulk. They also received a new toy in the form of Defog, allowing them to remove Entry Hazards at will. Overall Latios and latias are still good, but received a large number nerfs to be A+ Rank like they were last gen.
Mega Gyarados is essentially an improved version of Gyarados in terms of sweeping and apart from Ferrothorn, it really doesn't have any true counters in the OU metagame. Mega Gyarados is also one of the few Mega evolutions that does not have to Mega Evolve immediately thanks to its solid typing in its base form. Once its base form has setup 1 to 2 Dragon base, it can Mega Evolve into Mega Gyarados and sweep. Another strategy that can be used is to play Mind Games with the foe by sending Gyarados against something like Aegislash, making the opponent wonder whether they should use Shadow Ball on Regular Gyarados or Sacred Sword on Mega Gyarados. Overall, Mega Gyarados is an excellent Pokemon in the metagame, which is why I believe it should be moved up to A-Rank.
Sorry if this is confusing.
Trace is hugely conditional and Mega-Alakazam is generally worse than its normal form. Its speed and power are nice but it's so frail most of the priority out right now will kill it so easily that it will never have a chance to use it. Meanwhile normal Alakazam still has great speed and power, the perfect ability for a revenge killer like it and the benefit of being impossible to OHKO with focus sash. I'd say Mega is C- while normal is B.
Gengar is a serious threat this gen with the buff to ghost and poison this paired with his solid speed, fantastic Spa, three crucial immunities and hugely diverse movepool including Pain Split, Shadow Ball, Sludge Bomb, Giga Drain/Energy Ball, Dazzling Gleam, Focus Blast, Thunderbolt, Trick, Disable and more mean he is (or at least can be) an unpredictable threat. He's too weak to withstand a lot of the priority sloshing around but barring that I think he's solid enough to warrant a B+.
Crobat is a personal favorite of mine who has benefited greatly from the infiltrator, poison and defog buffs. He hits fairly hard and between Brave Bird, Taunt, Super Fang, Defog, etc his movepool gives him a lot of options. Mandibuzz is a better defensive defogger and Talonflame is superior at delivering devastating BB's, but I'm going to say Crobat is solidly C+
Mega Manectric belongs to a great speed tier and has a very useful ability, and fits right in on Volt-turn teams. He does well against Talonflame and Aegislash and while his movepool isn't fantastic Electric/Fire/HP Ice give him decent coverage which he is able to fully exploit with his speed and special attack. However since he still costs a Mega Slot, is rather frail and doesn't hit as hard as other pokemon with life orb I'd say he's only a C.
I'll add more to this post later as I consider them.
I believe, like a few others, that Talonflame deserves to not be S.
I really don't feel like it lives up to the requirements of being in S-Rank. I probably see one of those things every other match but it just doesn't stand out too much to me as a threat amongst the levels of Genesect or Aegislash. Just look at the description of S rank.
There aren't many Pokemon that succeed while being totally walled by a really good Pokemon, but Talonflame has this problem with all 3 of Rotom-W, Heatran, and Tyranitar, all 3 of which are likely top 10 Pokemon at this point in time. While sometimes Pokemon have ways to get past their typical checks Talonflame has almost nothing to do against them. While it could Will-O-Wisp Tyranitar, it risks getting OHKOed even with the burn I'm pretty sure. Rotom-W and ESPECIALLY Heatran are almost full stops to the thing and are extremely common at the moment. Other Pokemon in S-Rank don't really have Pokemon where you can say "it walls every variant" but for Talonflame, this is mostly true.
I really don't feel like it lives up to the requirements of being in S-Rank. I probably see one of those things every other match but it just doesn't stand out too much to me as a threat amongst the levels of Genesect or Aegislash. Just look at the description of S rank.
This line is pretty much the biggest reason why I don't see Talonflame as an S-Rank threat. Even in Pokebank OU where there were few Stealth Rock users in the metagame, Talonflame didn't last long at all in many cases unless it came with Rapid Spin or Defog. Rapid Spin is, outside of Excadrill, not very good right now, with Ghosts becoming much more common than ever before and many of them can threaten the spinners - it is also worth adding that some of the spinners (Starmie, Tentacruel) were nerfed regardless. While Defog looked promising OU is lacking in Pokemon that are actually good at using Defog, and it gets a lot harder to revenge kill Pokemon without Stealth Rock damage of your own. Pokebank has introduced a few new Defogers like Latias but there are a lot more Pokemon with Stealth Rock (such as Tyranitar and Heatran) which allows it to be omnipresent in OU once again. This makes it more difficult for Talonflame to survive since it is easier to get up now.
There aren't many Pokemon that succeed while being totally walled by a really good Pokemon, but Talonflame has this problem with all 3 of Rotom-W, Heatran, and Tyranitar, all 3 of which are likely top 10 Pokemon at this point in time. While sometimes Pokemon have ways to get past their typical checks Talonflame has almost nothing to do against them. While it could Will-O-Wisp Tyranitar, it risks getting OHKOed even with the burn I'm pretty sure. Rotom-W and ESPECIALLY Heatran are almost full stops to the thing and are extremely common at the moment. Other Pokemon in S-Rank don't really have Pokemon where you can say "it walls every variant" but for Talonflame, this is mostly true.
Talonflame also lacks this quality as well. Choice Band and Swords Dance both serve very similar purposes - use a prioritized Brave Bird. Bulk Up is a much different variant but it still loses to similar Pokemon, other than maybe stalling out Tyranitar. I have yet to see any Talonflames actually use Substitute + Bulk Up though and many of its checks and counters have access to Roar or a lot of different moves to hit it with.
While Talonflame can revenge kill stuff with Brave Bird, which has really shaken things up, I just don't think it has what it takes to be S-Rank. Its bad coverage, frailty, reliance on recoil moves, omnipresent hard-stops, 4x Stealth Rock weakness, and not-that-great attack make me believe it is more of an A+ or even A Rank. All that speed and having the best priority move in the game is certainly useful but the metagame is way too well prepared to take on the bird for the most part - there are too many flaws you just cannot overlook.
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This post exactly. Talonflame has strong priority, sure, but it doesn't have Scizor level bulk or attack. It also has a poor movepool outside of its STABs, this thing is so overrated its almost funny. It's the Electivire of gen 6. I would honestly say to put it in B rank, nothing higher, as from then on it will continue to drop. A priority Brave Bird means nothing if you're so weak.
"So weak" wat.
BB's got a a huge base power, and flying is a good attacking type. Furthermore, it's not like Talonflame is strapped for ways to increase its power, with Swords Dance, Bulk Up, and Choice Band to aid it in this endeavour. Its defences are also salvageable, particularly since no good Talonflame doesn't invest in HP, allowing it to take a surprising amount of damage. Furthermore, aside from that Stealth Rock [it's not even really the rock type that's the problem, just that one move] weakness, it has quite a few resistances and immunities to play off of - Bug, Grass, Fire, Fairy, Ground, and Fighting resistances are nothing to sneeze at, and Talonflame can even play with its weaknesses even more with priority Roost. Furthermore, Talonflame's can U-Turn out of most counters if there's a problem, and Natural Gift is an interesting gimmick for doing massive damage to those that it would normally have a hard time hurting. It's also the ultimate revenge-killer, capable of sniping even a Pokemon at +6 speed due to having incredibly strong priority, which reduces or even eliminates the need for a dedicated scarfer/revenge killer on some teams. It also easily picks off threatening Pokemon that're weak to it like Keldeo and Mega Pinsir.
A- Rank at absolute worst, looking more at A+ or A.
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I would like to nominate crobat for +B/-B
Crobat is a decent stallbreaker in his own right and this gen only made it easier for him to be able to better work with it's supporting tools. While mandibuzz is one of the main go to supporting pokemon to have, crobat has it's own tricks which it can offer
For a start, crobat packs a whooping base 130 speed which makes it an ideal taunt lead where needed or being able to shut down any set up or hazard user before they even attempt to do so. Also, with the recent buff to infiltrator which enables crobat to use his taunts through subs to prevent the user to reapply subs or use any other non attacking moves it may have, plus you could always throw in a toxic for good measure if required.
Crobat now has access to defog as well and can be a good option as a defog user due to it's good typing and it's not on the frail side either and it has access to roost for recovery where required.
When crobat has done it's job, it can simply U-turn to provide a pivot.
Crobat is a decent stallbreaker in his own right and this gen only made it easier for him to be able to better work with it's supporting tools. While mandibuzz is one of the main go to supporting pokemon to have, crobat has it's own tricks which it can offer
For a start, crobat packs a whooping base 130 speed which makes it an ideal taunt lead where needed or being able to shut down any set up or hazard user before they even attempt to do so. Also, with the recent buff to infiltrator which enables crobat to use his taunts through subs to prevent the user to reapply subs or use any other non attacking moves it may have, plus you could always throw in a toxic for good measure if required.
Crobat now has access to defog as well and can be a good option as a defog user due to it's good typing and it's not on the frail side either and it has access to roost for recovery where required.
When crobat has done it's job, it can simply U-turn to provide a pivot.
Rotom-W-->S
It can switch into a wide variety of major threats in the current meta, like talonflame, heatran,mega pinsir, and azumarill to some degree, and this utility allows it to fit into almost any team. And even past that, it uses this defensive utility to find its true usefulness as a supporter, by forcing these mons out and providing free turns with volt switch to an enormous number of mons that can either use this turn to set up, or use the matchup advantage to continue to pressure the opponent. This volt switch is also practically unblockable, as anything that would "block" it either hates hydro pump, hates will-o-wisp, or is named gastrodon, which basically provides the momentum to you anyways. The number of pokemon that love free turns that get good synergy with rotom-w is also a large factor, as pokemon such as genesect, mega-lucario, both landorus, talonflame, and scizor all can wreak havoc on the opponent with these free turns. To add to this though, rotom-w isn't a pokemon that dies early, as it is hard to get a favorable matchup against due to volt switch, and can also sometimes use its free turn to heal with chestorest to avoid being worn down. Lastly, it also washes your clothes for you, giving it exceptional utility even outside of battle =)
It can switch into a wide variety of major threats in the current meta, like talonflame, heatran,mega pinsir, and azumarill to some degree, and this utility allows it to fit into almost any team. And even past that, it uses this defensive utility to find its true usefulness as a supporter, by forcing these mons out and providing free turns with volt switch to an enormous number of mons that can either use this turn to set up, or use the matchup advantage to continue to pressure the opponent. This volt switch is also practically unblockable, as anything that would "block" it either hates hydro pump, hates will-o-wisp, or is named gastrodon, which basically provides the momentum to you anyways. The number of pokemon that love free turns that get good synergy with rotom-w is also a large factor, as pokemon such as genesect, mega-lucario, both landorus, talonflame, and scizor all can wreak havoc on the opponent with these free turns. To add to this though, rotom-w isn't a pokemon that dies early, as it is hard to get a favorable matchup against due to volt switch, and can also sometimes use its free turn to heal with chestorest to avoid being worn down. Lastly, it also washes your clothes for you, giving it exceptional utility even outside of battle =)
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
I'm loving this so far based ninja :], but here are some of the things I'd like to comment on:
Garchomp to S Rank
I already had thoughts on this on gen V so I guess I'll use some of my ideas from then: Garchomp is probably the most solid (stat wise) pokemon in OU bar shit like Kyurem B, it has awesome bulk, only facing competition in raw bulk from Kyurem B and lolzygarde as a dragon, it's 130 attack with it's amazing STAB coupled with Swords Dance really makes it hard to switch into, it has one of the best speed tiers in XY OU *for something that has that bulk and power*, letting it revenge a lot of stuff with it's scarf sets and even banded sets. .It has 2 fantastic lure sets in: yache and haban SD chomp. Which beat most ways of revenging it, and it's bulk lets it run both a lead set and an subsalac set. While fairies may have fucked salamence and maybe even dragonite, Gachomp can remain near unscathed. Heck the biggest nerf to it this gen was actually the fucking rain nerf! Now the aqua tail sets are going to either run LO more often or use damp rock on politoed support or scrap politoed/rain altogether. The only 3 true counters to this thing (togekiss, skarm and bronzong) are smashed by the aqua tail set, which now can use it's badass new mega form which I will cover later:
Calcs
*Outside of rain calcs*
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 147-174 (44 - 52%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 266-315 (71.1 - 84.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 191-225 (51 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 234-276 (65.3 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 166-196 (49.1 - 57.9%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 156-184 (46.1 - 54.4%) -- 56.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 212-252 (59.2 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 179-211 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 250-295 (66.8 - 78.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 152-179 (45.5 - 53.5%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 171-202 (50.5 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 275-324 (73.5 - 86.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 196-231 (52.4 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(I honestly believe mega chomp should always be adamant if it's going to SD because it's a great way to abuse the power it was given while saying fuck you to the sped tier the mega puts it in, but I put in jolly calcs because that fact is very debetable)
*Inside of rain calcs*
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss in Rain: 294-346 (78.6 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss in Rain: 268-316 (71.6 - 84.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong in Rain: 234-276 (69.2 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong in Rain: 257-303 (76 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory in Rain: 207-244 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory in Rain: 227-268 (67.9 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory in Rain: 170-201 (50.8 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong in Rain: 192-226 (56.8 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss in Rain: 308-363 (82.3 - 97%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss in Rain: 220-259 (58.8 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(left out LO on regular chomp in inside rain calcs because I doubt people would run LO when they have rain, because they could just run a resist berry and be even more check resistant)
This lets garchomp like previously stated, smash it's counters. And if chomp wasn't strong enough, it got a freakin mega! which allows it to run mixed sets, bulky SR sets, wallbreaker, and wall sets even better! all in the exchange for an item slot. The only way to beat this beast is to revenge it with fast dragon or ice moves(or ice shard) and hope it doesn't have a resist berry, Overall garchomp is just awesome and deserves one of these 2 ranks. I also thing mega g. should be in the same rank as I believe seperate ranks in terms of megas should only be reserved form egas like lucario or charX who work like 9x differently or are 9x better than their base form, but that's just imo.
Mega Lucario and Aegislash down to A/A+ Rank
While mega luke certainly is strong, I feel as if it's too overhyped, even more so with aegis. MLuke faces 3 huge problems: 1) it has 1NS- 1 nature slot syndrome in the matter that it can run jolly and be in an actual good speed tier but miss out on some potentially important kills(+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 266-314 (82 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery) or choose adamant and be revenged by a lot more things (+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 226-268 (70.6 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock) 2) it's weak to mach punch and prio brave bird hits it way too hard to be ignored, things immediately that are huge because:
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 283-338 (100.7 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 114-136 (43.5 - 51.9%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO (you can argue SD but I can argue sash loom)
252+ Atk Choice Band Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 254-300 (90.3 - 106.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 198-234 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Sky Plate Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 210-247 (74.7 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (weaken mega cario and it's done for)
+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 125-148 (41.9 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
showing that the 2 most common mach punch users and THE user of gale wings can OHKO it (the latter needs some weakening but it can also run CB to just run through mega luke) and 3) it's simply too easy to to check, and it's frail as balls so it's not realistic that you will get a boost up, and if you do, many things can take the first or even 2 hits and KO or status back (a good example of status checks are stall breaker WoW talon and Twave thundy). That being said, it is a very good premier fighting sweeper of gen 6, so it deserves the A or A+
Aegislash has just gotten old and predictable now, it's still pretty good, but it's no longer "omg game freak how could you bring such a terror on us" like when it was first hyped because of the simply theorymon of the stats of the 2 forms and kings shield. The SD sets are really prepared for, shadow sneak is weak af, and they really are underwhelming these days. While the special sets do get some merit, it is very checkable and counterable, for instance, use sleep powder/EQ mega venusaur because it's a good pokemon and you suddenly get the point of checking it, use good classic SPECIALLY defensive rotom-w, and you get a solid counter(16+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W: 122-146 (40.1 - 48%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery - 240 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 133-157 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- 68% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery) etc. It's really so thought of as game breaking because of it's hype. While it is legitimately a good pokemon, it's just not the flawless-amazing level it needs to be to be S
I already had thoughts on this on gen V so I guess I'll use some of my ideas from then: Garchomp is probably the most solid (stat wise) pokemon in OU bar shit like Kyurem B, it has awesome bulk, only facing competition in raw bulk from Kyurem B and lolzygarde as a dragon, it's 130 attack with it's amazing STAB coupled with Swords Dance really makes it hard to switch into, it has one of the best speed tiers in XY OU *for something that has that bulk and power*, letting it revenge a lot of stuff with it's scarf sets and even banded sets. .It has 2 fantastic lure sets in: yache and haban SD chomp. Which beat most ways of revenging it, and it's bulk lets it run both a lead set and an subsalac set. While fairies may have fucked salamence and maybe even dragonite, Gachomp can remain near unscathed. Heck the biggest nerf to it this gen was actually the fucking rain nerf! Now the aqua tail sets are going to either run LO more often or use damp rock on politoed support or scrap politoed/rain altogether. The only 3 true counters to this thing (togekiss, skarm and bronzong) are smashed by the aqua tail set, which now can use it's badass new mega form which I will cover later:
Calcs
*Outside of rain calcs*
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 147-174 (44 - 52%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 266-315 (71.1 - 84.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 191-225 (51 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 234-276 (65.3 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 166-196 (49.1 - 57.9%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 156-184 (46.1 - 54.4%) -- 56.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 212-252 (59.2 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 179-211 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 250-295 (66.8 - 78.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 152-179 (45.5 - 53.5%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 171-202 (50.5 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 275-324 (73.5 - 86.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 196-231 (52.4 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(I honestly believe mega chomp should always be adamant if it's going to SD because it's a great way to abuse the power it was given while saying fuck you to the sped tier the mega puts it in, but I put in jolly calcs because that fact is very debetable)
*Inside of rain calcs*
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss in Rain: 294-346 (78.6 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss in Rain: 268-316 (71.6 - 84.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong in Rain: 234-276 (69.2 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong in Rain: 257-303 (76 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory in Rain: 207-244 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory in Rain: 227-268 (67.9 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory in Rain: 170-201 (50.8 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong in Rain: 192-226 (56.8 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss in Rain: 308-363 (82.3 - 97%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss in Rain: 220-259 (58.8 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(left out LO on regular chomp in inside rain calcs because I doubt people would run LO when they have rain, because they could just run a resist berry and be even more check resistant)
This lets garchomp like previously stated, smash it's counters. And if chomp wasn't strong enough, it got a freakin mega! which allows it to run mixed sets, bulky SR sets, wallbreaker, and wall sets even better! all in the exchange for an item slot. The only way to beat this beast is to revenge it with fast dragon or ice moves(or ice shard) and hope it doesn't have a resist berry, Overall garchomp is just awesome and deserves one of these 2 ranks. I also thing mega g. should be in the same rank as I believe seperate ranks in terms of megas should only be reserved form egas like lucario or charX who work like 9x differently or are 9x better than their base form, but that's just imo.
While mega luke certainly is strong, I feel as if it's too overhyped, even more so with aegis. MLuke faces 3 huge problems: 1) it has 1NS- 1 nature slot syndrome in the matter that it can run jolly and be in an actual good speed tier but miss out on some potentially important kills(+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 266-314 (82 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery) or choose adamant and be revenged by a lot more things (+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 226-268 (70.6 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock) 2) it's weak to mach punch and prio brave bird hits it way too hard to be ignored, things immediately that are huge because:
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 283-338 (100.7 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 114-136 (43.5 - 51.9%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO (you can argue SD but I can argue sash loom)
252+ Atk Choice Band Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 254-300 (90.3 - 106.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 198-234 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Sky Plate Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 210-247 (74.7 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (weaken mega cario and it's done for)
+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 125-148 (41.9 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
showing that the 2 most common mach punch users and THE user of gale wings can OHKO it (the latter needs some weakening but it can also run CB to just run through mega luke) and 3) it's simply too easy to to check, and it's frail as balls so it's not realistic that you will get a boost up, and if you do, many things can take the first or even 2 hits and KO or status back (a good example of status checks are stall breaker WoW talon and Twave thundy). That being said, it is a very good premier fighting sweeper of gen 6, so it deserves the A or A+
Aegislash has just gotten old and predictable now, it's still pretty good, but it's no longer "omg game freak how could you bring such a terror on us" like when it was first hyped because of the simply theorymon of the stats of the 2 forms and kings shield. The SD sets are really prepared for, shadow sneak is weak af, and they really are underwhelming these days. While the special sets do get some merit, it is very checkable and counterable, for instance, use sleep powder/EQ mega venusaur because it's a good pokemon and you suddenly get the point of checking it, use good classic SPECIALLY defensive rotom-w, and you get a solid counter(16+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W: 122-146 (40.1 - 48%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery - 240 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 133-157 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- 68% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery) etc. It's really so thought of as game breaking because of it's hype. While it is legitimately a good pokemon, it's just not the flawless-amazing level it needs to be to be S
I believe Forretress should be bumped up to B or B-.
The main reason I believe it deserves this is not it's ability to wall, which in reality is pathetic, but because it makes an amazing support pokemon on VoltTurn teams. It is one of the few pokemon that can both Voltturn and Rapid Spin, while being able to support the team with Spikes or, if they lack a better user, Stealth Rocks as well. Since VoltTurn creates battles in which swapping out is common on both teams, having the upper hand in hazards can make an big difference, and Forretress can keep control without ever breaking the offensive momentum.
Anyone who uses it on stall is most likely using it the wrong way.
The main reason I believe it deserves this is not it's ability to wall, which in reality is pathetic, but because it makes an amazing support pokemon on VoltTurn teams. It is one of the few pokemon that can both Voltturn and Rapid Spin, while being able to support the team with Spikes or, if they lack a better user, Stealth Rocks as well. Since VoltTurn creates battles in which swapping out is common on both teams, having the upper hand in hazards can make an big difference, and Forretress can keep control without ever breaking the offensive momentum.
Anyone who uses it on stall is most likely using it the wrong way.
I'm actually surprised Kyurem-B hasn't gotten much mention yet. It probably deserves at least B+, with a shot at A/A-, despite its current, extremely odd unpopularity. It's a fantastic wallbreaker with monstrous mixed offensive stats, excellent bulk and a good speed tier that allows it to set up substitutes on things like Rotom-W, the pink blobs, Ferrothorn lacking Gyro ball etc. and wrecks absolute havoc once it's behind a sub. SR weakness and weakness to common priority like Bullet punch and Mach punch hurts it, obviously but I don't feel like it's enough to hold it back from the upper ranks.
S
Genesect -Agree, best lead in the game along with Rotom-W and Deoxy-S, there is daylight between everything below. Can fulfill a number of offensive roles.
Mega Lucario - It can NP, SD, mixed, good priority moves and 112 speed. Close Combat does too much damage, S tier.
Aegislash - Special Shadow Ball OP, can switch into almost everything. Great typing and essentially a 720 BST Pokemon.
Deoxys-S - Better than everything else at what it does.
Talonflame - Probably A tier, has its flaws but its priority is unmatched while being able to have bulk. Few counters + U-turn makes it difficult to deal with without SR.
A+
Rotom-W: S Tier, anti meta, can switch Volt Turn momentum to you, 1 weakness besides mold breaker EQ users, burn is incredibly strong right now too. Best glue you could ask for.
Heatran: Can hard wall many Pokemon and has the move slot for protect to scout choice users and leftovers. The best defensive SR user.
Charizard(Mega-X): Both Charizards are stupid because you don't know which is coming. I find Y more threatening. Probably A tier.
Garchomp: Probably about right, A+ tier absolute max. Can sweep, revenge or wall break, ground types are very important too.
Manaphy: Too slow and predictable, A tier at most. Most offensive teams don't have much trouble with it and does have coverage issues.
Thundurus I and Charizard Y should be here over Manaphy and Charizard X. Thundurus's speed tier is immense in OU and has really nice typing. Charizard Y destroys everything bar Dragons and Blissey, whom both lose to Charizard X.
Genesect -Agree, best lead in the game along with Rotom-W and Deoxy-S, there is daylight between everything below. Can fulfill a number of offensive roles.
Mega Lucario - It can NP, SD, mixed, good priority moves and 112 speed. Close Combat does too much damage, S tier.
Aegislash - Special Shadow Ball OP, can switch into almost everything. Great typing and essentially a 720 BST Pokemon.
Deoxys-S - Better than everything else at what it does.
Talonflame - Probably A tier, has its flaws but its priority is unmatched while being able to have bulk. Few counters + U-turn makes it difficult to deal with without SR.
A+
Rotom-W: S Tier, anti meta, can switch Volt Turn momentum to you, 1 weakness besides mold breaker EQ users, burn is incredibly strong right now too. Best glue you could ask for.
Heatran: Can hard wall many Pokemon and has the move slot for protect to scout choice users and leftovers. The best defensive SR user.
Charizard(Mega-X): Both Charizards are stupid because you don't know which is coming. I find Y more threatening. Probably A tier.
Garchomp: Probably about right, A+ tier absolute max. Can sweep, revenge or wall break, ground types are very important too.
Manaphy: Too slow and predictable, A tier at most. Most offensive teams don't have much trouble with it and does have coverage issues.
Thundurus I and Charizard Y should be here over Manaphy and Charizard X. Thundurus's speed tier is immense in OU and has really nice typing. Charizard Y destroys everything bar Dragons and Blissey, whom both lose to Charizard X.
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I disagree as megazam is simply an improved life orb zam and life orb zam was severely underrated. Megazam only has issues with Scizor, Azumarrill, Dragonite and Physical Mega Luke in terms of priority thanks to its fighting resist and if you run a cm set with a little prediction suckerpunchers are fairly easily handeled anything else is fair game for it A rank at the very least especially since its practically a straight up improvement on zam. the only times that zam is better is when you are at full health with sash against something that you probably shouldn't be staying in on anyways and afterwards your normal zam will be practically useless.
Gengar deserves A rank at least it is extremely powerful and can do sub disable shenanigans as well as amazing coverage definitely one of this gens premier offensive threats.
Crobat i agree on i would almost say B- but its almost purely outclassed as an odd attacking set and outclassed by mandibuzz on bulky defogger
Mega Manectric is probably B rank because as an electric type he's really only outdone by the thundurus forms. And even then he still has overheat and flamethrower over them as well as better speed and better attack than Incarnate.
Severely underrated by most if you ask me also intimidate on a fast volt switcher is amazing.
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
LIES
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam: 228-270 (90.4 - 107.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mega Absol Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam: 414-488 (164.2 - 193.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Sky Plate Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam: 268-316 (106.3 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam: 102-121 (40.4 - 48%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes (sash mamo 2HKos)
heck even breloom can 2HKO with CB adamant mach punch, although a 2HKO isn't always the best thing for something that can KO you, I'm probably missing some more but come on
sorry forgot about aegislash and talonflame (how the hell did i forget two of the most dominant forces in the metagame) and mamoswine gets ohko'd back by focus blast and sash only works with no prior damage, breloom gets ohko'd by psyshock or dazzling gleam. also absol needs a free switch in or its dead and if you have a cm set with some clever predicting you can work around it (personal experience)
Honestly, Megazam seems pretty terrible in a metagame where one of Talonflame, Aegislash, and Genesect (So, over half of S-rank) are on just about every team and all OHKO before it can do anything. One of the main draws of Alakazam in general is that it makes a great revenge killer because it can't be OHKOed thanks to Sash + Magic Guard, and Megazam completely wastes that. I don't see it as worth using as a team's only Mega when it actually has much more utility in its non-Mega form.
Back to business at hand
Vaporeon ==> C Vap has lost a lot with the fall of rain but can still function with water absorb and wish passing. In this gen Vap has fallen below the abilities of Gastrodon and speak of the devil.
Gastrodon ==> C+/B- Rank: Many think that with the rain nerf Gastrodon is no longer good however that is simply not the case thanks to last gens buffs to storm drain Gastrodon has two immunities and one weakness to a very uncommon attacking type. combine that with a nice base 111 hp a passable base 86 spdef and meh defense alongside access to scald recover and toxic and you have a nice bulky water. Definitely still viable.
Machamp ==> C+/B- Rank: Thanks to the invention of the assault vest Machamp has a new lease on life as a bulky attacker and a damn good one at that. Thanks to dynamic punch and a ton of coverage thanks to payback and the elemental punches. It has priority with bullet punch and recovery if you want it with drain punch as well as dynamicpunch and stone edge shenanigans with no guard. Might barely make it back to ou this gen.
Heracross ==> B- Rank: Well it hasn't gotten any worse with its normal sets and it has the option of running a bulky and insanely strong mega attacker set. Its scarf set is as deadly as ever. Not much to say here.
Chandelure ==> B- Rank: Thanks to the Ghost Buff Chandelure boasts even better coverage than before and it has some serious power with that base 145 Spatk. It can run a very powerful scarf set and now has a buffed infiltrator to give it some options.
Vaporeon ==> C Vap has lost a lot with the fall of rain but can still function with water absorb and wish passing. In this gen Vap has fallen below the abilities of Gastrodon and speak of the devil.
Gastrodon ==> C+/B- Rank: Many think that with the rain nerf Gastrodon is no longer good however that is simply not the case thanks to last gens buffs to storm drain Gastrodon has two immunities and one weakness to a very uncommon attacking type. combine that with a nice base 111 hp a passable base 86 spdef and meh defense alongside access to scald recover and toxic and you have a nice bulky water. Definitely still viable.
Machamp ==> C+/B- Rank: Thanks to the invention of the assault vest Machamp has a new lease on life as a bulky attacker and a damn good one at that. Thanks to dynamic punch and a ton of coverage thanks to payback and the elemental punches. It has priority with bullet punch and recovery if you want it with drain punch as well as dynamicpunch and stone edge shenanigans with no guard. Might barely make it back to ou this gen.
Heracross ==> B- Rank: Well it hasn't gotten any worse with its normal sets and it has the option of running a bulky and insanely strong mega attacker set. Its scarf set is as deadly as ever. Not much to say here.
Chandelure ==> B- Rank: Thanks to the Ghost Buff Chandelure boasts even better coverage than before and it has some serious power with that base 145 Spatk. It can run a very powerful scarf set and now has a buffed infiltrator to give it some options.
Yeah i guess but honestly both of them deserve A- rank as they generally are used in different ways.
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
There's these things called reasons why it's a CHECK not a counter. (Jeez Antar your checks and counters thread was not clear enough apparently) and CM mega zam is pretty terrible, it's too frail to set up and it's forced to chose between HP, Shadow Ball, Focus Blast, Psychic STAB and/or Dazzling Gleam for 3 move coverage. That and sucker punch predicting is obvious, and as someone who has debated many times before, personal experience is a very weak argument for both banning and ranking, a good player vs good player would be very much different (nobody can tell your exact level of goodness you are and other stuff) so I've actually designed a chart to counter act this arguement over the times I've heard this:
while 5/9 times it will be bad for absol, you have to remember, this is because kazam is the threat/attacker at hand, and because of sucker punch mechanics if we allowed absol to truly be on equal footing, we would add SD, a whole new dimension to the game, we would also have to consider which attack kazam uses and predicts absol to do like psychic on a predicted scarfgar switch in, so while it looks like kazam would win, this is a very simplified version that excludes entire dimenesions to the game, putting it highly on favor of mega kazam
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Nominate Skarmory for A rank.
Let's face it, "significant portions" of the metagame is mainly still physical, though special is creeping back. But skarm basically walls half the metagame. A fantastic typing gives it to immunities, eight resistances, and two weaknesses. That, simply put, is fantastic.
The support movepool only got better this gen, making skarmory the best hazard clearer in the game. It can defog, taunt, set up rocks, whirlwind, spike, has recovery and basically is a staple on any defensive team. Sure, it suffers from 4mss but it does what it needs to do incredibly well (set up/clear hazards, wall and phaze, whatever you ask it to do).
Kingdra for C+.
Kingdra's new set, the critdra set, is incredible. I mean, it is devastating to slow teams or teams that have been worn down a bit. Of course, critdra suffers from the speed, but given support, this is mitigated. It does need support, but it is so unique, so powerful and cuts through all boosts indiscriminately. LO critdra does 32-39% to eviolite chansey, and the blobs are about the only way to stop the successive assaults of draco meteor/hydro pumps.
Drop Greninja to B rank...
Yes, every move he has is stab and this can make him unpredictable, but greninja still can't cut through with his power. He is frail, mostly not surviving one attack when hit, and the need for life orb cuts into his health even more. Priority can revenge kill him with ease, and his own priority is all physical, including an inconsistent water shuriken. He doesn't sweep much of the metagame at all, and his frail health means that he can only come in on safe switches.
Diggersby to D rank.
He's not even a good scarfer. Any dragon dancer, any rock polish user and any other relevant scarfer is immediately faster. He is weak to two forms of priority (three if you count water shuriken) and jolly Diggersby only hits 411 attack... Kyurem-B invested goes to 482 Jolly (no band). Adamant Breloom hits 512 with LO (And this isn't factoring tech). Landorus therian could run adamant scarf and be faster AND stronger, carrying better attacks. Diggersby is outpowered by many common threats, slower than hell and restricted to run a scarf set that many other pokemon could run better (Garchomp, Landorus-t, even MoxieKrookodile...)
Breloom for B rank.
Spore took a nerf this gen, but really there's only grass types absorbing it and they are still rare. It needs a free turn to get in and grasses to be gone, but Breloom works well with the deadly 130 base attack, spore, swords dance and tech moves including the devastating bullet seed, mach punch and rock tomb. It can still run sub punch well enough if needed, but this set is definitely outclassed in a metagame of ghosts.
Let's face it, "significant portions" of the metagame is mainly still physical, though special is creeping back. But skarm basically walls half the metagame. A fantastic typing gives it to immunities, eight resistances, and two weaknesses. That, simply put, is fantastic.
The support movepool only got better this gen, making skarmory the best hazard clearer in the game. It can defog, taunt, set up rocks, whirlwind, spike, has recovery and basically is a staple on any defensive team. Sure, it suffers from 4mss but it does what it needs to do incredibly well (set up/clear hazards, wall and phaze, whatever you ask it to do).
Kingdra for C+.
Kingdra's new set, the critdra set, is incredible. I mean, it is devastating to slow teams or teams that have been worn down a bit. Of course, critdra suffers from the speed, but given support, this is mitigated. It does need support, but it is so unique, so powerful and cuts through all boosts indiscriminately. LO critdra does 32-39% to eviolite chansey, and the blobs are about the only way to stop the successive assaults of draco meteor/hydro pumps.
Drop Greninja to B rank...
Yes, every move he has is stab and this can make him unpredictable, but greninja still can't cut through with his power. He is frail, mostly not surviving one attack when hit, and the need for life orb cuts into his health even more. Priority can revenge kill him with ease, and his own priority is all physical, including an inconsistent water shuriken. He doesn't sweep much of the metagame at all, and his frail health means that he can only come in on safe switches.
Diggersby to D rank.
He's not even a good scarfer. Any dragon dancer, any rock polish user and any other relevant scarfer is immediately faster. He is weak to two forms of priority (three if you count water shuriken) and jolly Diggersby only hits 411 attack... Kyurem-B invested goes to 482 Jolly (no band). Adamant Breloom hits 512 with LO (And this isn't factoring tech). Landorus therian could run adamant scarf and be faster AND stronger, carrying better attacks. Diggersby is outpowered by many common threats, slower than hell and restricted to run a scarf set that many other pokemon could run better (Garchomp, Landorus-t, even MoxieKrookodile...)
Breloom for B rank.
Spore took a nerf this gen, but really there's only grass types absorbing it and they are still rare. It needs a free turn to get in and grasses to be gone, but Breloom works well with the deadly 130 base attack, spore, swords dance and tech moves including the devastating bullet seed, mach punch and rock tomb. It can still run sub punch well enough if needed, but this set is definitely outclassed in a metagame of ghosts.
Shuckle to C at best, more likely D.
It is a bulky supporter pokemon with a single niche, shared by the more frail but more powerful Galvantula, in setting up Sticky Webs. This niche, however, is often unnecessary due to the prevalance of Flying/Levitating Pokemon, and the common grounded threats often not caring about their Speed being lowered at all.
Power Split may be useful to cripple, especially on the Special side that Will-o-Wisp misses, but it can't be used effectively an extra time without switching first. There are better monsters like Conkeldurr to Knock Off an opponent's items, and Shuckle is setup bait with Infestation/Toxic. Bulldoze is interesting, but there's no point to using offensive moves when Shuckle has so little useable Attack. It also lacks efficient recovery that other walls usually have.
If it got something like Foul Play, where it did not have to rely on its absolutely worthless 10 base Attack/SpAtt to deal damage, then it might have some use. But, the monsters in OU are simply too much for the little turtle. Maybe UU or RU will give it better luck, where the monsters are usually slow enough that Sticky Web will ensure a team going first.
It is a bulky supporter pokemon with a single niche, shared by the more frail but more powerful Galvantula, in setting up Sticky Webs. This niche, however, is often unnecessary due to the prevalance of Flying/Levitating Pokemon, and the common grounded threats often not caring about their Speed being lowered at all.
Power Split may be useful to cripple, especially on the Special side that Will-o-Wisp misses, but it can't be used effectively an extra time without switching first. There are better monsters like Conkeldurr to Knock Off an opponent's items, and Shuckle is setup bait with Infestation/Toxic. Bulldoze is interesting, but there's no point to using offensive moves when Shuckle has so little useable Attack. It also lacks efficient recovery that other walls usually have.
If it got something like Foul Play, where it did not have to rely on its absolutely worthless 10 base Attack/SpAtt to deal damage, then it might have some use. But, the monsters in OU are simply too much for the little turtle. Maybe UU or RU will give it better luck, where the monsters are usually slow enough that Sticky Web will ensure a team going first.
Ajwf: I would agree with all of your points except for Greninja, who I believe is a solid A/A-. Greninja doesn't have much ability to withstand common priority, which is true, but Greninja's job isn't to face down most of its common users (who, barring talonflame, are often on the bulkier side). Instead Greninja functions best as an Anti-Offense pokemon. His fantastic speed tier paired with a workable movepool and Protean mean he can OHKO almost any frail offenisve threat. All the Kami baring Thundurus-I, Gengar, Alakazam, Unboosted Volcarona, Dragonite, Salamence, Starmie, Garchomp, unscarfed Terrakion, etc, he OHKO's all of them and more. With minimal hazard support he can OHKO up to minimally invested Mandibuzz and (43.8% chance) Skarmory. Overall he makes a poor stall-breaker but that's not really what he should be used for, and he shouldn't really be challenging any 'mon with decent special defense unless they've already taken some hits.
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So now that this is open, time for me to drop in. I see many people making claims that Talonflame should be A+ or even A Rank, because of its SR weakness, 'predictability', and the omnipresence of its counters. However, I generally look at an S-Rank Pokemon's role and see if other Pokemon can replicate it, and how good its niche is. As you can already guess, priority Brave Bird is something only Talonflame has and that is pretty damn good.
Choice Band Talons and setup Talons can heavily trouble anything without a Flying (and Fire) resistance, which is pretty good grounds for a Pokemon to be able to 'sweep significant portions of the metagame'. Additionally, its support role comes from being able to snipe down setup sweepers which even Choice Scarf or priority users can sometimes fail to bring down either due to lack of power and / or speed; Talon packs both.
We have the flagship Choice Band set that haunts the minds of any sweeper without a Flying-resistance, the Swords Dance set that makes offensive teams wish they'd left the one Talonflame fodder on their team at home, and Bulk Up Talonflame that can beat nearly any defensive Pokemon without a (powerful) super effective move and becomes impervious to physical hits. Only a surprisingly few number Pokemon can take on all 3 variants comfortably.
Alright, we've already acknowledged that Talonflame has some very solid full-stops when it comes to counters, but what of its matchups against everything else? With the right set, Talonflame is in a favorable position against almost everything else in all of OU. Offensive Pokemon get preyed upon by Choice Band or Swords Dance Talonflame, while I can safely say nearly any defensive Pokemon without a Rock-, Water-, or Electric-type move is not going to beat Bulk Up Talonflame one-on-one. Hell, Bulk Up + Taunt Talonflame is the reason why Heatran bothers with Ancientpower. All these great matchups for like what, 3-4 counters that see OU usage? I think this is very much worthy of S-Rank.
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I'm only gonna speak from my accumulated experiences + knowledge from here on out:
Mega Charizard X - A+
I truly believe MegaZardX stands atop all of the Dragon Dance sweepers in the OU tier, even more so than Dragonite, for the reasons that I will mention:
a.) Fire/Dragon STAB + EQ coverage.
I believe this three moves alone allows ZardX to hit everything with either a neutral STAB, or SE EQ bar Azumarill. In ZardX's case, it's second typing was actually a boon rather than a bane. That's not to say that it can't be walled though.
b.) Immunity to burn
I believe this fact deserves a special mention in contributing to ZardX's top position as a DD sweeper, what with all the ghosts running around plus WoW's buffed accuracy. Whereas a burn might prematurely end most DDancer's sweep, ZardX shrugs it off like a boss. Now that's 2 less status to worry about.
c.) The ability to bluff sets
Remember when you had to guess if Salamence is wearing a Scarf, Band or LO? ZardX takes it further by bluffing to be an entirely different pokemon, which has a different sets of counters. The closest pokemon to have this syndrome is MegaLuke and MegaDos. Though MegaLuke can only bluff movesets while MegaDos can only bluff its retyping, MegaZard can bluff both which can be a great tool for a trainer to take advantage of.
Imo the reasons above are what puts ZardX above all the Dragon Dancers in OU, even Dragonite, although Dragonite has his own niche as a bulky DDancer. Of course, one has to remember ZardX's cost of useage(mega-slot) if you want to put it in your team.
With that said, ZardX is not without it's flaws. Imo the biggest flaw it has(and something that keeps it from being S) is its difficulty in finding the right opportunity to come in, mega-evolve and then sweep. The combined might of SR plus base Charizard's inherent frailty greatly reduces ZardX's opportunities to come in and sweep, something most DDancers generally have a problem with. Although imo ZardX is the most affected with this weakness.
Mega Charizard Y - A+
In my opinion ZardY is a very underrated threat in this gen. It has it's own niche similar to that of Volcarona(coverage-wise) and Keldeo(firepower-wise) while being deceptively bulky under the sun.
What puts it above other special attackers(and makes it a A+ imo) is it's capability to punch holes with its sun-boosted Fire Blasts right off the bat. Meaning no set-up required, just come in on a predicted WoW/EQ/SR/Spikes and you're set to wreck havoc for 5 turns.
ZardY shares some perks and weaknesses with its twin brother, most notably the dreaded SR weakness and the ability to bluff sets, though ZardX has the ability to patch up its speed.
Mega Charizard X - A+
I truly believe MegaZardX stands atop all of the Dragon Dance sweepers in the OU tier, even more so than Dragonite, for the reasons that I will mention:
a.) Fire/Dragon STAB + EQ coverage.
I believe this three moves alone allows ZardX to hit everything with either a neutral STAB, or SE EQ bar Azumarill. In ZardX's case, it's second typing was actually a boon rather than a bane. That's not to say that it can't be walled though.
b.) Immunity to burn
I believe this fact deserves a special mention in contributing to ZardX's top position as a DD sweeper, what with all the ghosts running around plus WoW's buffed accuracy. Whereas a burn might prematurely end most DDancer's sweep, ZardX shrugs it off like a boss. Now that's 2 less status to worry about.
c.) The ability to bluff sets
Remember when you had to guess if Salamence is wearing a Scarf, Band or LO? ZardX takes it further by bluffing to be an entirely different pokemon, which has a different sets of counters. The closest pokemon to have this syndrome is MegaLuke and MegaDos. Though MegaLuke can only bluff movesets while MegaDos can only bluff its retyping, MegaZard can bluff both which can be a great tool for a trainer to take advantage of.
Imo the reasons above are what puts ZardX above all the Dragon Dancers in OU, even Dragonite, although Dragonite has his own niche as a bulky DDancer. Of course, one has to remember ZardX's cost of useage(mega-slot) if you want to put it in your team.
With that said, ZardX is not without it's flaws. Imo the biggest flaw it has(and something that keeps it from being S) is its difficulty in finding the right opportunity to come in, mega-evolve and then sweep. The combined might of SR plus base Charizard's inherent frailty greatly reduces ZardX's opportunities to come in and sweep, something most DDancers generally have a problem with. Although imo ZardX is the most affected with this weakness.
Mega Charizard Y - A+
In my opinion ZardY is a very underrated threat in this gen. It has it's own niche similar to that of Volcarona(coverage-wise) and Keldeo(firepower-wise) while being deceptively bulky under the sun.
What puts it above other special attackers(and makes it a A+ imo) is it's capability to punch holes with its sun-boosted Fire Blasts right off the bat. Meaning no set-up required, just come in on a predicted WoW/EQ/SR/Spikes and you're set to wreck havoc for 5 turns.
ZardY shares some perks and weaknesses with its twin brother, most notably the dreaded SR weakness and the ability to bluff sets, though ZardX has the ability to patch up its speed.
Forretress should be B ranked as a defensive support still, imo.
His ability to lay down 3 different hazards + spin them at the same time, as well as having the option to go for a slow volt switch to preserve advantage, is still very valuable. Sturdy is still useful for those who love the custap leads (I love red card with it as an emergency phaser), and his only real competition is still really Ferrothorn, which i'd put at A for the ability to hurt more pokemon with twave/leech seed/higher base attack.
Of course, both need to watch out for the new Talonflame, but it's not like fire weakness is anything new.
His ability to lay down 3 different hazards + spin them at the same time, as well as having the option to go for a slow volt switch to preserve advantage, is still very valuable. Sturdy is still useful for those who love the custap leads (I love red card with it as an emergency phaser), and his only real competition is still really Ferrothorn, which i'd put at A for the ability to hurt more pokemon with twave/leech seed/higher base attack.
Of course, both need to watch out for the new Talonflame, but it's not like fire weakness is anything new.
- Status