Imo that alone does not qualify Greninja to be A/A-. If you give all the pokes you mentioned a Scarf, Greninja would be the one getting OHKO'd instead.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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I'd just like to know what the reasoning behind garchomp's placement in A+ is.
What kind of sets/traits make it so it's an A+ in this generation?
TBH, Mega garchomp (SD or mixed) isn't very good.
So that leaves regular garchomp and its scarf, SD, and lead sets.
Do you gus believe garchomp really is an A+ material?
I'm just curious as to why people think so, that's all.
What kind of sets/traits make it so it's an A+ in this generation?
TBH, Mega garchomp (SD or mixed) isn't very good.
So that leaves regular garchomp and its scarf, SD, and lead sets.
Do you gus believe garchomp really is an A+ material?
I'm just curious as to why people think so, that's all.
Talonflame=>A+ rank
I do not feel Talonflame belongs in the S rank. Barring Speed, all of its stats are pretty bad. It boasts weaknesses to 2 fairly common move types and one ridiculously common entry hazard. Does it have its good points? Yes, it has an amazing ability. However, that amazing ability is not going to mean very much against something that is not Flying-type weak due to it's low attack. Every other pokemon in S or A+ has at least one of the 2 offensive stats higher than Talonflame's attack in at least one forme that is accessed during battle. That includes pokemon placed there for support reasons such as Rotom-W. In fact, the ONLY pokemon in the A teir or higher with both attacking stats lower than Talonflame's Attack is Deoxys-D. Hell, even Forretress, a support mon in the C rank, has a higher Attack. Talonflame has 3 sets that it can run, one with no variation and two with little variation (CB, Bulk Up and SD), making it very predictable. Like I touched on at the start, its defensive typing, like any other typing weak to Stealth Rock, is complete shit. It needs resistances to survive attacks with its low defenses-it doesn't have too many. It requires large amounts of support in that you are required to devote an entire team slot to counter its main weakness-Stealth Rock. This is a pokemon whose good attributes do not outweigh the poor ones enough for the S rank and should be demoted.
I do not feel Talonflame belongs in the S rank. Barring Speed, all of its stats are pretty bad. It boasts weaknesses to 2 fairly common move types and one ridiculously common entry hazard. Does it have its good points? Yes, it has an amazing ability. However, that amazing ability is not going to mean very much against something that is not Flying-type weak due to it's low attack. Every other pokemon in S or A+ has at least one of the 2 offensive stats higher than Talonflame's attack in at least one forme that is accessed during battle. That includes pokemon placed there for support reasons such as Rotom-W. In fact, the ONLY pokemon in the A teir or higher with both attacking stats lower than Talonflame's Attack is Deoxys-D. Hell, even Forretress, a support mon in the C rank, has a higher Attack. Talonflame has 3 sets that it can run, one with no variation and two with little variation (CB, Bulk Up and SD), making it very predictable. Like I touched on at the start, its defensive typing, like any other typing weak to Stealth Rock, is complete shit. It needs resistances to survive attacks with its low defenses-it doesn't have too many. It requires large amounts of support in that you are required to devote an entire team slot to counter its main weakness-Stealth Rock. This is a pokemon whose good attributes do not outweigh the poor ones enough for the S rank and should be demoted.
Rebuttal to Punchshroom
1 or 0 Pokemon can take on 100% of Aegislash, Genesect, Deoxys-S, or Mega Lucario sets
This just makes it a lot worse than the other 4, combined with the fact that you need a required teammate for Rapid Spin or Defog (if you say that this teammate isn't required I'll be saddened), few of which are even remotely good this generation. Talonflame has several checks and counters that are extremely good like Rotom-W, Tyranitar, and Heatran, along with checks like Azumarill and to an extent Gliscor, all of which are Top 15 Pokemon. Even if Gliscor doesn't count that's a lot for an S-Rank to take in.
Overall though, you need to consider that, while Talonflame does have one very useful trait there are so many problems that it must deal with. Is it metagame defining? Yeah, I'd say so. But you really cannot put a Pokemon with so many flaws in S-Rank imo, especially since it being there doesn't mean you have a foolproof method to defeat offense - it is far from it.
This... hardly means anything at all. I would HOPE that a sweeper can threaten anything that isn't resistant to its STABs lol. I understand that the speed means offensive Pokemon need to take a hit first, but anything with a decent bulk can take a singular hit and probably hit Talonflame back even harder. Even then, I can assure you that Pokemon such as Hippowdon still fail to give a fuck about Talonflame despite not having a resistance to either attack - it just really, really struggles to do anything to resists or physical walls with its offensive sets.
While this may be partially due to Talonflame (I really doubt it), speed boosting set up sweepers (set up sweepers in general) are not really that common this generation and many of them deal with Talonflame anyway. For instance Dragonite has Extreme Speed, which is faster than Brave Bird, Mega Ttar is basically Tyranitar with DD so Talonflame loses the fight there. Even the outdated SD Aegislash can play games with Talonflame and start Shadow Sneaking it eventually, especially the CB variant if it uses Brave Bird on something else.
To successfully revenge kill a sweeper and live to see the next day Talonflame needs to be extremely healthy or it needs to be pretty sure it can OHKO it before it dies itself. By switching into Stealth Rock to then only use Brave Bird you may have just lost your Pokemon too if you sent it out earlier and had just a little bit of residual damage, which gets even worse if you got a Life Orb. Stealth Rock SHOULD still be a factor in every match, which really hurts a set like CB where you need to switch out frequently. On CB, even if you manage to revenge kill something, if Stealth Rock is up you are literally incapable of doing anything else with Talonflame unless you have a partner use Rapid Spin or Defog. This immediately puts it at a large disadvantage for a Choice User, especially one that relies on recoil moves. And honestly SD Talonflame is NOT that hard to stop. There are quite a few Pokemon that can take a +2 STAB attack and retaliate with their own. Sure, there are few that take on all variants, but consider this...
1 or 0 Pokemon can take on 100% of Aegislash, Genesect, Deoxys-S, or Mega Lucario sets
This just makes it a lot worse than the other 4, combined with the fact that you need a required teammate for Rapid Spin or Defog (if you say that this teammate isn't required I'll be saddened), few of which are even remotely good this generation. Talonflame has several checks and counters that are extremely good like Rotom-W, Tyranitar, and Heatran, along with checks like Azumarill and to an extent Gliscor, all of which are Top 15 Pokemon. Even if Gliscor doesn't count that's a lot for an S-Rank to take in.
Overall though, you need to consider that, while Talonflame does have one very useful trait there are so many problems that it must deal with. Is it metagame defining? Yeah, I'd say so. But you really cannot put a Pokemon with so many flaws in S-Rank imo, especially since it being there doesn't mean you have a foolproof method to defeat offense - it is far from it.
I'm going to suggest Kyurem-B for A/A+
For me, there really isn't much to say here. The mixed set is just as deadly as ever (my preferred set), and the CB set seems to work well. Its speed is still shortcoming, but it's still a massively powerful bulky attacker. With an apparent transition in to more bulky offensive playstyles this gen, Kyu-B thrives.
For me, there really isn't much to say here. The mixed set is just as deadly as ever (my preferred set), and the CB set seems to work well. Its speed is still shortcoming, but it's still a massively powerful bulky attacker. With an apparent transition in to more bulky offensive playstyles this gen, Kyu-B thrives.
Can't forget Assault Vest either. Assualt Vest Kyurem-B sounds horrifying.
I have too agree with the above posters about dropping Talonflame to A+ rank. It's a great mon that can revengekill a lot of thrests in the metagame but I honsetly feels like it cannot sweep that well even after a Swords Dance or two.
I would also like to nominate Togekiss for B-rank. It's quiet bulky with pritty good typing and a good movepool. It can run anything from a pararlincher to a bulky cleric/wall. It have acces to Defog and Heal Bell making it a good claric for any team. It's however often forced out by anything that don't mind getting paralyzed or are immune to it. Thundorus-I and Rotom-W are some a good examples.
I would also like to nominate Togekiss for B-rank. It's quiet bulky with pritty good typing and a good movepool. It can run anything from a pararlincher to a bulky cleric/wall. It have acces to Defog and Heal Bell making it a good claric for any team. It's however often forced out by anything that don't mind getting paralyzed or are immune to it. Thundorus-I and Rotom-W are some a good examples.
Talonflame's pros:
- priority Brave Bird (duh)
- good typing for setting up
- able to run different sets that can throw off most of its non-foolproof counters without losing effectiveness.
Talonflame's cons:
- reliance on recoil-inducing moves
- Stealth Rock
- has counters with both good bulk and survivability
I can see where you're going with the flaws part, as they are all issues Talonflame needs to address (though tbh, I ran BU Talon without a Spinner or Defogger and it still works wonders :P). It's just that Talonflame has almost all the tools it needs to succeed (albeit, not all at once): it has U-Turn to take part in softening up its own counters instead of leaving teammates to do all the work while maintaining the advantage; it has Roost to help patch up its longevity issues; it can invest in bulk while still maintaining speed due to its ability; and then there are those gimmicky Natural Gift sets that packs a Berry which can screw over the respective counter while still not dropping that much in effectiveness.
Yes, I'm aware that Talonflame suffers a bit more in "not being able to do much if counters are present" than the other S-Ranks (though it's not like Genesect can do much to Heatran either), but it still isn't usually totally helpless in those situations, though that would depend on the set in question. I still feel like it has a shot for S-Rank, but if not then A+ Rank is still fine with me, not any lower.
- priority Brave Bird (duh)
- good typing for setting up
- able to run different sets that can throw off most of its non-foolproof counters without losing effectiveness.
Talonflame's cons:
- reliance on recoil-inducing moves
- Stealth Rock
- has counters with both good bulk and survivability
I can see where you're going with the flaws part, as they are all issues Talonflame needs to address (though tbh, I ran BU Talon without a Spinner or Defogger and it still works wonders :P). It's just that Talonflame has almost all the tools it needs to succeed (albeit, not all at once): it has U-Turn to take part in softening up its own counters instead of leaving teammates to do all the work while maintaining the advantage; it has Roost to help patch up its longevity issues; it can invest in bulk while still maintaining speed due to its ability; and then there are those gimmicky Natural Gift sets that packs a Berry which can screw over the respective counter while still not dropping that much in effectiveness.
Yes, I'm aware that Talonflame suffers a bit more in "not being able to do much if counters are present" than the other S-Ranks (though it's not like Genesect can do much to Heatran either), but it still isn't usually totally helpless in those situations, though that would depend on the set in question. I still feel like it has a shot for S-Rank, but if not then A+ Rank is still fine with me, not any lower.
Talonflame is just fragile enough that it's often forced around when it can't secure a KO, even if it would take a big chunk out of the opposing check, which combined with its rock weakness leaves it best suited to revenge killing. Which it's very good at. But it lacks the right coverage and power to threaten the majority of the metagame on its own, struggling to find switchins without support and often heading for the hills after pecking off a weakened mon. Spectacular pokemon, but definitely suited to the A/+ rank imo. It doesn't nearly have the "everything is in its favor" aspects of the other, more versatile utility mons and sweepers of S tier.
-Deoxys-D ===> A
-Talonflame ===> A+
-Scizor ===> A
-Dragonite ===> A
-Gliscor ===> B+
-Ferrothorn ===> A
-Skarmory ===> B+
-Trevenant ===> B
-Jolteon ===> D
-Malamar ===> C
-Kyurem-B ===> B+
-Sylveon ===> C
-Togekiss ===> B+
-Scolipede ===> B
-Terrakion ===> A+
-Latias ===> A
-Latios ===> A
-Thundurus-I ===> A+
Making these changes as they serve as a good, provisional start to where they should be.
I don't mind moving Manaphy up to A+, however im going to need more evidence, as I see some people claiming its average, others claiming its the bees knees, and im my experience its been a little hit and miss.
Moved Zygarde ===> B- for now
Looking for more discussion on
Goodra, and Manaphy
EDIT lol missed 3 pages, rereading
EDIT 2: Quick pointer, I won't make an A- Rank unless the A rank gets to crowded its needed. As this current stage im not doing it because im still missing a shitload of pokemon and it seems silly to put it up when im still missing a lot.
Also Mega's are tiered differently, mostly because I think thats easier since Lucario / Tyranitar / Garchomp are all good pokemon even without their Mega Form
EDIT 3
Just to avoid me getting wrecked by the sheer number of requests, in general can we stick to mons that you think should B or higher, since id rather tier the most important and or common pokemon in the meta, and then work my way down.
EDIT 4
I moved Talonflame down to A+.
-Talonflame ===> A+
-Scizor ===> A
-Dragonite ===> A
-Gliscor ===> B+
-Ferrothorn ===> A
-Skarmory ===> B+
-Trevenant ===> B
-Jolteon ===> D
-Malamar ===> C
-Kyurem-B ===> B+
-Sylveon ===> C
-Togekiss ===> B+
-Scolipede ===> B
-Terrakion ===> A+
-Latias ===> A
-Latios ===> A
-Thundurus-I ===> A+
Making these changes as they serve as a good, provisional start to where they should be.
I don't mind moving Manaphy up to A+, however im going to need more evidence, as I see some people claiming its average, others claiming its the bees knees, and im my experience its been a little hit and miss.
Moved Zygarde ===> B- for now
I'll respect your opinion, but I fully disagree. The OU Council has indicated that Deoxys-S is one of the first mons that will recieve a suspect test, and in my experience both in testing and in chatting with varoious players, many agree that its at least suspect worthy. Keeping it in S rank.
Read closer, its actually in A rank.
Looking for more discussion on
Goodra, and Manaphy
EDIT lol missed 3 pages, rereading
EDIT 2: Quick pointer, I won't make an A- Rank unless the A rank gets to crowded its needed. As this current stage im not doing it because im still missing a shitload of pokemon and it seems silly to put it up when im still missing a lot.
Also Mega's are tiered differently, mostly because I think thats easier since Lucario / Tyranitar / Garchomp are all good pokemon even without their Mega Form
EDIT 3
Just to avoid me getting wrecked by the sheer number of requests, in general can we stick to mons that you think should B or higher, since id rather tier the most important and or common pokemon in the meta, and then work my way down.
EDIT 4
I moved Talonflame down to A+.
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I request:
Empoleon ===> B
It's great Water/Steel defensive typing and great utility move pool consisting of bits like Knock Off, Defog, Roar and SR lets it constantly switch in easily and remove/set the hazards or slap off the opponents item, or Roar them out. It really can stay in easily now because of the depression in fighting-type pokemon usage because of fairies.
(Sorry I couldn't find the new X & Y party sprite ;~;)
Rotom-H ===> A
Rotom-H is just as good as Rotom-W this gen with rain being far less common and the rise of some new threatening steel and grass types like Mega Lucario, Aegislash, and Gourgeist-H/L/S/R for Rotom-H to munch on. It also received a new niche in status absorbing, as it is immune to Paralysis and Burn.
Empoleon ===> B
It's great Water/Steel defensive typing and great utility move pool consisting of bits like Knock Off, Defog, Roar and SR lets it constantly switch in easily and remove/set the hazards or slap off the opponents item, or Roar them out. It really can stay in easily now because of the depression in fighting-type pokemon usage because of fairies.
Rotom-H ===> A
Rotom-H is just as good as Rotom-W this gen with rain being far less common and the rise of some new threatening steel and grass types like Mega Lucario, Aegislash, and Gourgeist-H/L/S/R for Rotom-H to munch on. It also received a new niche in status absorbing, as it is immune to Paralysis and Burn.
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O.k, iv seen Rotom-H being pushed to A in a few posts, and I really want that discussed further as well, because in my experience, Rotom-W was often the better option, which is fairly important since they compete for the same moveslot. I acknowledge that Rotom-H is solid against Genesect, and that it is immune to burn and paralysis, which is really cool, but is this solely enough to push it into A Rank? I guess im still sceptical and want to see more posts on the subject.
I would say that Rotom-W is better in about 60/40 of the cases due to its singular less common weakness, but it lacks the double status immunity and nice fire type coverage which hits many mons on an offensive set. I mostly see Rotom-H as more offensive, sometimes scarfed with trick on the ladder and Rotom-W as more defensive, also sometimes scarfed offensively.
I'm also going to say
Mega Heracross ===> A-
It's an absolutely brilliant Wallbreaker and Bulky Sweeper with its 185 Attack, Skill Link effectively giving your coverage moves ~125 power. It also nicely achieves solid perfect coverage with EQ/Pin Missle/Rock Blast/Bullet Seed which lets it hit (I think) all of the meta neutrally or better, and alongside with its beefy 80/115/105 bulk lets it steamroll through unprepared teams.
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perplexingpool
Banned deucer.
Rotom-H has a better offensive typing, whereas Rotom-W has a better defensive typing.
Honestly I think Rotom-H is a much better mon this gen than last but is pretty outclassed by Rotom-W. Rotom-W has better typing both defensively and offensively. The only really relevant things that Rotom-H fairs significantly better against that I can think of are Genesect (which is admittedly fairly cool) and Ferrothorn which doesn't exactly enjoy WoW anyway, oh and probably Breloom too, now that I think of it. The SR weakness isn't a particularly desirable trait in a mon that is often used as a frequently switching pivot and losing completely to Heatran sucks. And to add insult to injury, it loses against Rotom-W as well.
Mega Pinsir is misspelled in the OP btw.
Also, I'm not sure why Gliscor is lingering in B+. I'm aware that B+ was its ranking in the previous generation, but it's not like it didn't get any better. The SubToxic set is still as potent as ever, but a buffed Knock Off greatly aids Gliscor in its disruption roles. There are also a good number of slower bulky Pokemon that have been introduced into the metagame, such as Mandibuzz, Trevenant and Gourgeist, all of which Gliscor can Taunt and adds to the number of Pokemon it can stallbreak. Gliscor isn't the easiest Pokemon to exploit either, I'm just uncertain what's keeping Gliscor from A Rank.
Rotom-H is what I'd like to fit into the theoretical "A- Rank(?)". It can stop Talonflame, while having an STAB combo that isn't as easy to wall (Grass-types, particularly Trevenant, get roasted). It is also immune to burns (again, relevant against the Grass / Ghosts) and resists Fairy and Bug, making it a great response to Scizor, Genesect, Togekiss and Mawile. On the other hand, the Water and Rock weaknesses are extremely debilitating: Rotom-H cannot switch into the former like Rotom-W can, and Stealth Rock notably detracts from its precious bulk.
Also, I'd like to push for Klefki up to B Rank due to Switcheroo, which can screw over almost any switch-in to the infamous SwagKey set. Prankster Spikes, Thunder Wave, and Dual Screens are great, it can fight back with Foul Play, and with its new toy it can be really difficult to evade Klefki's disruption. The lack of reliable recovery means I won't be pushing for it any higher, but Klefki is rarely a liability.
Talonflame S ===> A
It's pretty easy to counter it and prevent it from boosting with most useable rock types and it cannot deal with any Rotom that isn't shaped like a fridge or lawnmower. It's 80 something attack also limits what damage it can do to a lot of 'mons, and when I tried it the attack didn't do the job a lot of the time. It also has a nasty SR weakness. While it is a brilliant sweeper if it manages to achieve +2 or +4 due to the fact it will almost always hit first with priority Brave Birds, I honestly think it does not deserve S or A+.
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The one thing I'd say about talonflame, is that what he does is rather unique. He not only one of the fastest priority users in the game, but he has one of the most damaging priority moves in the game, throw in the fact that the only pokes that resist flying are rock, electric and steel, the first two are surprisingly uncommon in OU, and the latter is normally hit hard by Flare Blitz. He is, for the most part, the ultimate revenge killer, and the ultimate late game sweeper, all in one, while being great in a volt-turn team, actually, he can fit into almost any team and fill in a role just as well, if not better, than someone else on that team, he is a major reason rotom-W is SO popular. I don't know if that classifies as an S tier or not, I'll let everyone else debate that. Talonflame is versatile not in the sets he uses, in the moves he uses, but the roles he can achieve at any one time.
As for Rotom-H, as much as I love the guy, I'd have him as a B. He is a good pokemon, he absorbs both burns and Paraylsis without a care in the world, only has 2 weaknesses, and overheat is a great move... but I feel 9/10 in building a team, Rotom-W would fill his role better than he would, Rotom-W isn't weak to stealth rocks, generally making him a more efficient defensive pivot, I'd also say Rotom-W is more effective as far as attacking moves go, a lot of ground pokes won't be willing to switch into Rotom-W volt switch, fearing a hydro pump, while with rotom-H, an overheat is generally, less of a risk. Rotom-H also loses out against Rotom-W and Heatran, two very good and common defensive pokemon. Rotom-H scarf does revenge M-Lucario rather well however, something which Rotom-W can't boast. I'd say it's a B right now, but it does have promise of possibly moving up in the future.
As for Rotom-H, as much as I love the guy, I'd have him as a B. He is a good pokemon, he absorbs both burns and Paraylsis without a care in the world, only has 2 weaknesses, and overheat is a great move... but I feel 9/10 in building a team, Rotom-W would fill his role better than he would, Rotom-W isn't weak to stealth rocks, generally making him a more efficient defensive pivot, I'd also say Rotom-W is more effective as far as attacking moves go, a lot of ground pokes won't be willing to switch into Rotom-W volt switch, fearing a hydro pump, while with rotom-H, an overheat is generally, less of a risk. Rotom-H also loses out against Rotom-W and Heatran, two very good and common defensive pokemon. Rotom-H scarf does revenge M-Lucario rather well however, something which Rotom-W can't boast. I'd say it's a B right now, but it does have promise of possibly moving up in the future.
Ash Borer
I've heard they're short of room in hell
I feel Conkeldurr should be ugraded to the very least
Cant say it likes deo-D though lol
I strongly agree. Between Ice beam, Fusion bolt, EArth power, and Teravolt it rips through a huge portion of the defensive metagame, and outpaces them nicely. It also is so fantastically bulky it can sustain a single hit from nearly anything making it a very valuable all purpose check to offensive threats. Iron head, dragon claw and hidden power fire as coverage further improve its wall breaking ability. It's nearly impossible to switch into. I also like the fact hat it beats pretty much every defogger in the tier 1 on 1 and outspeeds most of them. Kyube hs a real good niche at being your go to pokemon to double switch into a defog user.
Cant say it likes deo-D though lol
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I think Ditto is a solid B pokemon. His useage is not low because he's not good. His useage is low because he's ugly/stupid looking and people feel innately uncomfortable using him for some psychological reasons. He's good. He's always useful. An instant check to like half the metagame that can't even take their own STABs (lucario, talonflame, aegis, garchomp, charizard, terrakion, excadrill, azumarril, pinsir, latio@s, kyurem, gengar) and also a check to anyone who wants to boost up. I want to reiterate that his usage is low because people think it's cheap/gimicky/ugly/trolly/uncompetitive. He is good. Every power creep makes ditto better. B imo.
I woul like to nominate Dugtrio to c rank, mabye even c+. Dugtrio can kill something only if it weak to ground, but if he find anything like its almost ensures you one pokemon out of the game. His speed along his ability makes him a great revenge killer and one of the best trappers in the game.
Talonflame is fortunate in that none of its hard counters have reliable recovery, which is the case for most Flying-types, many of which don't make OU. I've honestly never heard of people complaining that Talonflame doesn't "hit hard enough" despite what its stats imply, since 120 Base Power can make up for a lot. The SR weakness is unfortunate, but getting rid of hazards has become substantially easier and Talonflame's great-for-setup typing seems a worthy trade. Also, Talonflame deserves its ranking since no other Pokemon can do what it does, and its niche is metagame-defining. Its offensive sets greatly hassle the majority of Pokemon found on offensive teams, while its Bulk Up set take advantage of a lot of defensive Pokemon very easily.
Talonflame S ===> A
It's pretty easy to counter it and prevent it from boosting with most useable rock types and it cannot deal with any Rotom that isn't shaped like a fridge or lawnmower. It's 80 something attack also limits what damage it can do to a lot of 'mons, and when I tried it the attack didn't do the job a lot of the time. It also has a nasty SR weakness. While it is a brilliant sweeper if it manages to achieve +2 or +4 due to the fact it will almost always hit first with priority Brave Birds, I honestly think it does not deserve S or A+.
lol legit reasons
Ditto doesn't see as much use as it does since it telegraphs its moves to its opponents, and it can be deadweight against defensive teams since it cannot alternate between its newly acquired support moves. There is also the dilemma of trying to sweep with a Choiced attack, which can make you woefully predictable: for example, you have to go for Vacuum Wave against NP Lucario and Brave Bird against SD Talonflame (lest they can go for the move themselves and KO you right back), giving them easy switch-ins; or maybe you wanted to sweep using their Garchomp, but cannot since an immunity stops you from spamming any move; or all Ditto gets to do is revenge kill a Belly Drum Sitrus Azumarill with Play Rough, and not be able to Aqua Jet anything else so no countersweep. And then there are bulky boosters such as BU Talonflame, QD Volcarona, and Coil Zygarde, whom Ditto has little to no impact on since they can continue to boost and weaken your attack while you cannot do the same.
Now that we've got the flaws out of the way, I won't deny that Ditto can discourage setup and make for a clutch revenge killer, but it can still be taken advantage of due to the fact that it must be Choiced, or else it would be horribly unreliable at its job. C Rank from me, or maybe even D if I'm going that far.
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Entei's gift of Sacred fire is one that is very beneficial to him, now not having to rely on a STAB that that deals heavy recoil (Already a problem with SR weakness) he's definitely an improved mon. A choice band set having massive fire power Leaving things that cannot resist its STAB in real pain, and anything that does switch in will likely get burned, crippling quite a few walls. Adding in the introduction of the fairy type (Giving entei a whole new type to switch in on) and rain not being omnipresent, Entei is definitely very open to tear through teams. However, his lack of coverage does force him to switch out a lot, compounding his stealth rock weakness, not to mention one of his solid switch-ins is the most used pokemon in OU. However, through the removal of weather, introduction of faires and the gift of sacred fire Entei is quite a viable choice in OU, Acting as a good wall breaker and revenge killer (Extreme speed)
Edit: The definition of B rank seems more apt for Entei than C rank.
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Mega Pinsir for A+
It has one true counter in skarmory, it's other true counter, physically defensive rotom, takes around 60% from a +2 return. This means that if it switches into a return with stealth rocks, it can't switch in again on a swords dance. It also has incredible priority that allows it to clean up weaken teams, for example it can ohko genesect after rocks and a spike. It has incredible power, and nearly unresisted coverage in two moves. This means that it can have priority without losing coverage, unlike nasty plot lucario. It has awesome bulk too, especially physical, allowing it to deal with all priority that doesn't come with a big red bird. Finally, it has three useful abilities as normal pinsir. One of the deadliest sweepers there is, a threat to offense, and beats any stall team once skarmory dies.
Landorus t for A+
The offensive pivot set is still good AF, and is a great check to most physical attackers, one of the only talonflame switchins that doesn't resist its stabs. But it's best set IMO, especially for offense, is the scarf set. This is easily the best revenge killer of mega lucario, fearing neither of its priorities. It is actually almost a counter at full health, even if mega Luke predicts with flash cannon, only fearing a random ice move. It also can rk talonflame, gets u turn, and is one of the bulkiest scarfers there is.
Bisharp for A
This thing is so good it's hilarious, doing like75% to genesect with sucker punch So many would be revenge killers can't now due to. Steel nerf, leaving fighting types as the only real checks. But the real reason is defiant. Beating intimidate is nice, and wrecking the uncommon sticky web is useful, but the real key is defog. Bisharp is basically necessary on deoxys hyper offense, as otherwise the hazards can be blown away without a second thought. Oh and it has a super powerful knock off. And it is a great aegislash check, as they are scared to switch fearing sd. And it lols at kings shield
That's all for now, but as for the talonflame debate, it is pretty ridiculous, and priority brave bird is sick, but the meta has adapted around it, making it less viable, kinda like last gen uu heracross. Not picking a side, just pointing that out
It has one true counter in skarmory, it's other true counter, physically defensive rotom, takes around 60% from a +2 return. This means that if it switches into a return with stealth rocks, it can't switch in again on a swords dance. It also has incredible priority that allows it to clean up weaken teams, for example it can ohko genesect after rocks and a spike. It has incredible power, and nearly unresisted coverage in two moves. This means that it can have priority without losing coverage, unlike nasty plot lucario. It has awesome bulk too, especially physical, allowing it to deal with all priority that doesn't come with a big red bird. Finally, it has three useful abilities as normal pinsir. One of the deadliest sweepers there is, a threat to offense, and beats any stall team once skarmory dies.
Landorus t for A+
The offensive pivot set is still good AF, and is a great check to most physical attackers, one of the only talonflame switchins that doesn't resist its stabs. But it's best set IMO, especially for offense, is the scarf set. This is easily the best revenge killer of mega lucario, fearing neither of its priorities. It is actually almost a counter at full health, even if mega Luke predicts with flash cannon, only fearing a random ice move. It also can rk talonflame, gets u turn, and is one of the bulkiest scarfers there is.
Bisharp for A
This thing is so good it's hilarious, doing like75% to genesect with sucker punch So many would be revenge killers can't now due to. Steel nerf, leaving fighting types as the only real checks. But the real reason is defiant. Beating intimidate is nice, and wrecking the uncommon sticky web is useful, but the real key is defog. Bisharp is basically necessary on deoxys hyper offense, as otherwise the hazards can be blown away without a second thought. Oh and it has a super powerful knock off. And it is a great aegislash check, as they are scared to switch fearing sd. And it lols at kings shield
That's all for now, but as for the talonflame debate, it is pretty ridiculous, and priority brave bird is sick, but the meta has adapted around it, making it less viable, kinda like last gen uu heracross. Not picking a side, just pointing that out
I would like to nominate donphan for C+. As a spinner, donphan is a very interesting Pokemon. In general, it is outclassed by excadrill, however, donphan is a much bulkier Pokemon and has the ability to take hits from common stealth rocks setters since it doesn't have a problem taking most earthquakes. Donphan also enjoys being able to utilize priority (however weak it may be) and has a better way of taking out most common spin blockers in knock off. Once again, although generally outclassed, donphan is still very much a viable Pokemon and does have more bulk than its most similar spinning brethren while also having significantly more offensive prowess than forretress.
I would also like to nominate vaporeon for B-. It may have lost hydra rest, but it is still one of the best clerics in the game and passes some of the bulkiest substitutes. With scald and wish it can easily outlast many of the Pokemon that would otherwise threaten it with either burn stalling or easily tanking hits on the special side and healing the damage off later with wish and leftovers.
I would also like to nominate vaporeon for B-. It may have lost hydra rest, but it is still one of the best clerics in the game and passes some of the bulkiest substitutes. With scald and wish it can easily outlast many of the Pokemon that would otherwise threaten it with either burn stalling or easily tanking hits on the special side and healing the damage off later with wish and leftovers.
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