Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Dragontamer]

That's all for now, but as for the talonflame debate, it is pretty ridiculous, and priority brave bird is sick, but the meta has adapted around it, making it less viable, kinda like last gen uu heracross. Not picking a side, just pointing that out

If a single pokemon forces the metagame to morph around it... then its pretty much the definition of an S Pokemon.

Heracross wasn't what Gen5 was focused on... fighting types in general were extremely powerful. (ponies!) Terrakion, Keldeo, etc. etc. If your team could handle Terrakion, they probably could handle Heracross.

 

[Adonzo]

I see no point in specifying megas in a rank - it is simply a set available to the base pokemon. Should read that Lucario is S-rank, not just Mega Lucario. Likewise, should read as Charizard is A+, not X is A+ and Y is A.

 

[MagikaripIsOP]

Noobs would think regular charizard is good and the megas are essentially different pokemon with different checks and counters.

 

[SergantGold]

I see no point in specifying megas in a rank - it is simply a set available to the base pokemon. Should read that Lucario is S-rank, not just Mega Lucario. Likewise, should read as Charizard is A+, not X is A+ and Y is A.

I have to disagree with that. Many megas like Garchomp play profusely different from their base form, so they should be considered a different form and be tiered as such. For example Gengar is OU but Mega Gengar is Uber because he is banned in all the previous tiers.
Also, ginga, I can get the sprites for the pokemon on the list and put them on a copy-pasteable version of the viability list for you if you want.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Excadrill is solid A+. Its easily the best spinner in the tier, can check dozens of threats such as heatran, rotom w, tyranitar, subtoxic gliscor, defensive latias and clefable and thats with the air baloon+mold breaker set alone. Sand rush sets can revenge kill nearly any offensive threat and are great at cleaning lategame. Conkeldurr deserves A rank at the very least. Assault vest+guts is an evil combo for such a powerhouse. Theres hardly anything capable of koing it, it can recover and attack at the same time dealing huge amounts of damage, cant be crippled by most status. Seriously what else could anyone possibly want? Also why are megas ranked separately of their base forms when they are just sets and arent tiered separately? Thats like saying specs dragonite is D rank while band dragonite is A rank lol.

 

[Monte Cristo]

1 or 0 Pokemon can take on 100% of Aegislash, Genesect, Deoxys-S, or Mega Lucario sets

No offense but this is really false:
Genesect:
Rock Polish/Special Shift Gear:
Checks: Pretty much every fire type that can survive 1 hit, strong priority users like tlaon(not at full health since I'm doubting at full health it kills but you know whatI mean), so near all of them barring the lolinfernape
Counters: Seeing as rock polish does not run iron head- Heatran, Florges, Clefable, Sylveon, Terrak in sand, gastro, unaware quag (yes that thing has legititmate niche in the meta, I would make an arguement for it but I really want to get through my garchomp one) etc.
Scarf:
Checks: base 100s scarfers that kill it, talonflame
Counters (assuming standard uturn/3 special moves/): Florges, Clefable, Heatran, Terrak, gastro, quaf etc.
Physical/Mixed SHift Gear (Iron Head/SG/Flamethrower/Last Slot coverage)
Checks: Fire Types generally
Counters: Heatran, and depending on that last slot coverage: Azumarill(non tbolt non gdrain), Talonflame (non tbolt), Terrak in sand (generally), gastro & quag (non drain)

and more, we could do this for everything but Deo-S, because Deo-S's job isn't to sweep, it's to set up spikes, and it's been well adapted to suit coverage moves to take out opposing pokemon like tyranitar to fulfill it's roll.

I'm not saying any of these (bar aegis and luke which I said in my post a while ago) are not S rank, I'm saying they're OU for a reason. Please don't try to belittle talon by comparing them to pokemon that can't even fulfil your requirements.

Anyways on the topic of S chomp, I've rarely seen any talk on it or recognition that my pos is there, so I'm guessing most people either didn't see it or don't have much of a though on it? oh well, I can wait for something from ginganinja.

 

[Adonzo]

For example Gengar is OU but Mega Gengar is Uber because he is banned in all the previous tiers.

Let's just say for example Soul Dew were legal in OU. Ranking Megas differently would be like placing Soul Dew Lati@s in Super SSS rank, but Soul Dewless Lati@s in A. If the option is available to the Pokémon, they should be considered one and the same, not ranked based on the item they are holding.

EDIT: If the item in question is banned, their rank can be adjusted accordingly.

 

[SergantGold]

Let's just say for example Soul Dew were legal in OU. Ranking Megas differently would be like placing Soul Dew Lati@s in Super SSS rank, but Soul Dewless Lati@s in A. If the option is available to the Pokémon, they should be considered one and the same, not ranked based on the item they are holding.

We rank the different arceus forms differently and they are tiered based on tier item because tier item causes him/her/it/himyher to change form. A mega counts a different form.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Garchomp could honestly be S rank. It has almost flawless STAB coverage (and even then, Skarmory gets roasted by Fire Blast) with powerful moves to abuse them including Earthquake, Outrage, Dragon Claw and Dual Chop, as well as the stats to abuse this coverage (base 130 Atk and base 102 Spd are above average to say the least). Not only that, it has access to Swords Dance to boost his Atk to sky-high levels, making it a huge threat to bulky offense and stall. It's not limited to a SD set either; it can run Choice Scarf, Choice Band, mixed sets and support sets with Stealth Rock just as effectively. Did I mention 108/95/85 are excellent defenses for an offensive threat? It also blocks Volt-Turn and dismantles the Dragon/Steel core by itself. Its only significant weaknesses are the 4x Ice-weakness and its speed tier which falls just below certain threats. That said, these weaknesses can be overcome (Yache Berry and Choice Scarf come to mind amongst others) and they're not significant enough to hold back Garchomps amazing assets for his team which is, I do believe, the definition of a S rank pokemon.

 

[Monte Cristo]

We rank the different arceus forms differently and they are tiered based on tier item because tier item causes him/her/it/himyher to change form. A mega counts a different form.

Arceus plates have different mechanics, with arceus plates you don't have to use base arceus and then transform, so you're essenttially ranking a whole new mon. But with megas you have to use the base form and an time so all you're truly doing is ranking the item, which is dumb, mega stones count as different sets for pokemon. Same reason why C&C ubers counts arceus as different pokes but OU CC count mega stones as the same

 

[SergantGold]

Arceus plates have different mechanics, with arceus plates you don't have to use base arceus and then transform, so you're essenttially ranking a whole new mon. But with megas you have to use the base form and an time so all you're truly doing is ranking the item, which is dumb, mega stones count as different sets for pokemon. Same reason why C&C ubers counts arceus as different pokes but OU CC count mega stones as the same

They both are a different form that will have literally every mon (with very few exceptions) transform almost immeadiatly on the first turn they can. Different forms excluding Cherrim's all are tiered and ranked differently so we shouldn't make an exception to these megas.
And also putting Base Charizard in A rank is just asking for the ladder to be flooded with Choice Specs Solar Power zards.

 

[Duck Chris]

I think Bisharp should definitely be A as discussed above.

On the subject of Rotom-H, I am really liking it right now. The biggest advantage for me over Rotom-W is a much greater ability to check genesect. Scarf Easy Bake with Trick is almost gauranteed to do some damage during a match, not to mention the volt-switch potential. At this point many people are preparing for bulky washing machine but not for scarf. Now this could just be a boost for scarf rotoms in general, but I feel like the ability to hit the bulky water switch in with a powerful electric attack is pretty valuable.

 

[NotSoClutch]

Garchomp could honestly be S rank. It has almost flawless STAB coverage (and even then, Skarmory gets roasted by Fire Blast) with powerful moves to abuse them including Earthquake, Outrage, Dragon Claw and Dual Chop, as well as the stats to abuse this coverage (base 130 Atk and base 102 Spd are above average to say the least). Not only that, it has access to Swords Dance to boost his Atk to sky-high levels, making it a huge threat to bulky offense and stall. It's not limited to a SD set either; it can run Choice Scarf, Choice Band, mixed sets and support sets with Stealth Rock just as effectively. Did I mention 108/95/85 are excellent defenses for an offensive threat? It also blocks Volt-Turn and dismantles the Dragon/Steel core by itself. Its only significant weaknesses are the 4x Ice-weakness and its speed tier which falls just below certain threats. That said, these weaknesses can be overcome (Yache Berry and Choice Scarf come to mind amongst others) and they're not significant enough to hold back Garchomps amazing assets for his team which is, I do believe, the definition of a S rank pokemon.

I think it's still A rank. Its checked by a lot of threats. If running a swords dance set, it isn't that difficult to out speed and ohko with anything that uses an ice type attack. If it use a scarf, it generally locks itself into something that can be easily walled such as eq, dragon claw, or fire blast and then loses significant momentum for the team since it can't run u-turn. Still really versatile like you said, but it isn't unstoppable and it hasn't really gained anything new to make it better than last Gen IMO.

 

[Monte Cristo]

They both are a different form that will have literally every mon (with very few exceptions) transform almost immeadiatly on the first turn they can. Different forms excluding Cherrim's all are tiered and ranked differently so we shouldn't make an exception to these megas.
And also putting Base Charizard in A rank is just asking for the ladder to be flooded with Choice Specs Solar Power zards.

The difference that this is a in battle transformation. Which is a WHOLE new category, Cherrim's kind is only the beginning , we Have Darmanitan and it's zen mode, meloetta and it's p. form etc. If we don't tier those differently why should we do so to megas?

ps: What people do with our information on the ladder shouldn't be accounted for, people already use non mega-charizard in ubers higher than reshiram in gen 5, it's called dumb fanboys, not inspiration from this great thred :]

 

[SergantGold]

The difference that this is a in battle transformation. Which is a WHOLE new category, Cherrim's kind is only the beginning , we Have Darmanitan and it's zen mode, meloetta and it's p. form etc. If we don't tier those differently why should we do so to megas?

ps: What people do with our information on the ladder shouldn't be accounted for, people already use non mega-charizard in ubers higher than reshiram in gen 5, it's called dumb fanboys, not inspiration from this great thred :]

Those are all conditional form changes. You require no condition such as half health or sun for mega evolution. Also it is helpful to directly know where each mega stands in relation to its base or other megas, as you can only have one mega per team and it can be helpful while deciding between two megas.

 

[Adonzo]

Condition: Have a mega stone equipped.

 

[MagikaripIsOP]

The difference is that most if not all megas transform on the first turn

 

[Monte Cristo]

Those are all conditional form changes. You require no condition such as half health or sun for mega evolution. Also it is helpful to directly know where each mega stands in relation to its base or other megas, as you can only have one mega per team and it can be helpful while deciding between two megas.

Megas are conditional too, the requirement is a fuckin mega stone, remember? that thing you put on your gengar before it got banned?

I think it's still A rank. Its checked by a lot of threats. If running a swords dance set, it isn't that difficult to out speed and ohko with anything that uses an ice type attack. If it use a scarf, it generally locks itself into something that can be easily walled such as eq, dragon claw, or fire blast and then loses significant momentum for the team since it can't run u-turn. Still really versatile like you said, but it isn't unstoppable and it hasn't really gained anything new to make it better than last Gen IMO.

Let me tell you the amount of checks and counters of the 3 'good' offensive sweeping chomp variations, not even the mega form
Base/Original Set: SD aqua tail chomp in the rain
Yache Chomp:
Checks: latis & scarf dragons
counters: I'll leave that one for the end of the 2nd set since their power level is the same
Haban Chomp:
Checks: strong ice shards, weavile
Counters:
*Inside of rain calcs*
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory in Rain: 170-201 (50.8 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong in Rain: 192-226 (56.8 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss in Rain: 308-363 (82.3 - 97%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss in Rain: 220-259 (58.8 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Life Orb variation outside of rain:
Checks: Ice Shards, Scarf Dragons, Weavile & the latis
Counters:
*Outside of rain calcs*
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 147-174 (44 - 52%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 266-315 (71.1 - 84.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 191-225 (51 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 234-276 (65.3 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 166-196 (49.1 - 57.9%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Overall, this is just a weak argument imo, it has no counters, it can just switch an item and it losses/gains a whole new group of checks, and overall, it's good. Whether it be Setting up SR, revenging, banded powerhousing, SD sweeping or walling stuff, garchomp is just really hard to stop from doing what it wants for it's team.

 

[SergantGold]

Megas are conditional too, the requirement is a fuckin mega stone, remember? that thing you put on your gengar before it got banned?

.

Arceus forms are conditional right? You need to put a fucking plate on it in ubers.
It's a form that can play vastly different from its base form in new ways.

 

[Shiruba]

Yeah but the thing is it's a different forme with different capabilities. The formes may indeed have totally different roles [Mega + Regular Hera, Mega + Regular Alakazam] and are differently effective when they are and when they are not using the Mega stone. This is different from alternate sets because it's more or less a different Pokemon, and Pokemon often play considerably differently than their mega formes. Arceus has been brought up, and it's a good comparison- also similar because Mega stones can't be removed either. Furthermore, Shaymin-S can, technically, transform into Shaymin-L mid-battle, yet one is UU and the other is Uber.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Arceus forms are conditional right? You need to put a fucking plate on it in ubers.
It's a form that can play vastly different from its base form in new ways.

Oh my god it's like you're forgetting the thing I told you like 20 seconds ago...

The difference that this is a in battle transformation. Which is a WHOLE new category, Cherrim's kind is only the beginning , we Have Darmanitan and it's zen mode, meloetta and it's p. form etc. If we don't tier those differently why should we do so to megas?

ps: What people do with our information on the ladder shouldn't be accounted for, people already use non mega-charizard in ubers higher than reshiram in gen 5, it's called dumb fanboys, not inspiration from this great thred :]

Megas are in battle transformations, if they weren't, there wouldn't be a button specifically for that, a merged C&C analysis for base forms and megas, and more. Plate arceus-s(arce-ie? what's the plural for god tier llama?) happen in the team builder, mega stones equip their item in teambuilder, similar to meloetta equips relic song in the teambuilder, but they both transform in battle. If you can't see the difference, well I guess you're jsut as confused as dr. dre over here

 

[SergantGold]

Oh my god it's like you're forgetting the thing I told you like 20 seconds ago...



Megas are in battle transformations, if they weren't, there wouldn't be a button specifically for that, a merged C&C analysis for base forms and megas, and more. Plate arceus-s(arce-ie? what's the plural for god tier llama?) happen in the team builder, mega stones equip their item in teambuilder, similar to meloetta equips relic song in the teambuilder, but they both transform in battle. If you can't see the difference, well I guess you're jsut as confused as dr. dre over here

I know all of this. I'm just saying that megas should be ranked because most play very different from their base form and they are actually viable unlike Darm-Z. Meloetta is different due to the fact that it needs to use a moveslot to transform.

 

[PK Gaming]

Ok, this has gone on for long enough. Mega forms won't be ranked separately (Charizard being the exception for obvious reasons).

Pokemon who depend on their Mega form to be viable in standard will have the "Mega" tag. That's it.

 

[Jukain]

To be honest, I'm surprised to see Deoxys-D so far below Deoxys-S. It's even better than Deoxys-S as a hazard setter simply because its bulk virtually guarantees it two layers of hazards (at least against most foes). It also gets huge versatility in item. Against Deoxys-S, once you see the hazards, you *basically* know what it's got, bar that last move. Against Deoxys-D, you have no idea whether it's carrying a Mental Herb, a Tanga Berry, etc. This item throws a new variable to an already complicated equation. Against Deoxys-S, if it's the hazard setter, it has Focus Sash -- end of story. Deoxys-D is more reliable at setting up hazards in my experience. Deoxys-S deserves S Rank because of its revenge killer set and added versatility, as well as increased Speed that gives some advantages to it in regards to hazard setting, but they are few. Therefore, I propose Deoxys-D rise to either S Rank or A+ Rank (probably the latter).

 

[Shiruba]

If we're just gonna use the base forme as an indicator, then there shouldn't be any distinction, correct? If a mega is a "set" and just so happens to be the only good set in OU, who cares? It's not like we say Ditto[Scarf] for its placement, so why should it say Pinsir[Mega]?