Just going to quote this and see what people think since only one person commented on it. But yeah Gliscor is amazing and I feel it should move up. Here's a replay where I pretty much 6-0'd someone with it: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-154230063
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
- Start date
- Status
Comparing a poke that's being nominated for D with S rank pokes like Azumarill and Thundurus-I is pretty harsh imo. Besides, Whimsicott is more than a Dragon check. It stops any form of setup with Encore, which is useful on teams that struggle with setup sweepers like Zard X. The fact that Whimsicott deters setup by simply being on the team is quite frankly one of the main reasons to run it. If your opponent doesn't setup Whimsicott already did half his job.
Stun Spore might not be accurate like T-Wave, but it does hit stuff like Sand Rush Excadrill, ScarfChomp (who Whimsicott checks very well) in a pinch, as well as the usual T-Wave targets (barring Mega Venu who doesn't mind paralysis anyways and Breloom who dies to Moonblast). Whimsicott also has options like Tailwind, Leech Seed, Memento and U-turn coupled with Prankster making it a versatile support mon overall. Basically it does a lot of things that Clefable, Azumarill and Thundurus-I don't, it's pointless comparing to them. It's also the only viable manual Sun setter in OU (which isn't trash but I'd digress). Basically it fits the description of D rank perfectly, it's perfectly viable so there's no excuse not to rank it.
Comparing it to S-rank Pokemon makes perfect sense because they generally outclass Whimsicott. No, they can't use Leech Seed or Memento, but the things they can do over Whimsicott are simply more valuable. And dedicated sun is, indeed, trash. I'll concede that being able to paralyze Excadrill and Garchomp is cool, but that's not enough for me to want to put Whimsicott on any serious team. If you try hard enough, almost every Pokemon has some kind of niche in OU, but that doesn't mean that they're particularly useful niches or that those niches outweigh the sacrifices that you have to make to put that Pokemon on a team. I don't really care if Whimsicott gets put into D-rank, but it shouldn't.
Well, I agree with Hollywood on this. Whimsicott is just bad, it has some small niches but thats it, they just arent worthy ones to put Whimsicott on a team. Also agree that sun teams are rly bad as well, and they aren't serious teams for any serious tournament match but just for fun ones so yeah. I wouldnt be mad either if it becomes D rank too but I would prefer to see Whimisicott not ranked here.
I totally appreciate what you're saying and think you have a decent case, but don't your objections apply to D-rank quite generally? Aren't Haxorus, Weezing, Sharpedo, Mantine, Doublade, and so on and so forth typically totally eclipsed by S and A rank Pokemon except for very tiny niches? I'm afraid that if we applied your reasoning consistently there would be no D-rank left.
I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM
formerly Smog Frog
mantine is ranked bcuz nog thinks its good enuf, doublade should be higher than d, sharpedo is ass and shouldn't be ranked, haxorus is ass and shouldn't be ranked.
Whimsicott contributes so little to the battle that it's almost not worth using. It can use Encore, Leech Seed, Memento, and Stun Spore. Yeah. But Stun Spore is pretty much inferior to the Thunder Wave, which Klefki and Thundurus-I get, and Memento is cool but is only worth using on select teams. Leech Seed is just eh. Encore is kind of a cool move, and can be useful, but it's not something worth dedicating an entire team slot to. For its cost of a teamslot, Whimsicott does nothing extremely worthwhile that couldn't be done by another Pokemon.
And the thing with a lot of the D Rank Pokemon is that they have small niches, but those are at least decent niches that some serious teams can find room for. Haxorus, Salamence, and Zygarde are pretty much outclassed but can work on Dragon spam, Mantine is a decent Defogger that checks Keldeo and Landorus-I, both top threats in the tier, and is an okay bulky water, Weezing is a decent Mega Mawile and Mega Heracross check, Doublade handles the three rising Mega Wallbreakers and Terrakion very well, Sharpedo is trash but eh, etc. You get my point. Their niches may be small, but their niches are decent enough that at least the odd serious team may find use for them.
And the thing with a lot of the D Rank Pokemon is that they have small niches, but those are at least decent niches that some serious teams can find room for. Haxorus, Salamence, and Zygarde are pretty much outclassed but can work on Dragon spam, Mantine is a decent Defogger that checks Keldeo and Landorus-I, both top threats in the tier, and is an okay bulky water, Weezing is a decent Mega Mawile and Mega Heracross check, Doublade handles the three rising Mega Wallbreakers and Terrakion very well, Sharpedo is trash but eh, etc. You get my point. Their niches may be small, but their niches are decent enough that at least the odd serious team may find use for them.
I won't comment on things like Sharpedo and Haxorus because I never tried them out in OU seriously, but:
1) Doublade isn't a bad mon, it definitely deserves to be D-rank. It checks Gardevoir, Heracross, Alakazam and Medicham that are all troublesome for Stall teams, and since they actually dont use a lot anymore Shadow Ball, EQ and Fire Punch because Aegislash is in ubers, Doublade can act like a good answer so it has some space in some stall teams and therefore it's D rank.
2) Mantine like Doublade isn't rly bad either, it has Defog and call check well threats like Char-Y, Landorus-I and Keldeo to make some examples, because of that its D rank as well.
3) Weezing is D rank because it can check fairy-type mons like Clefable and Azumarill and because its a good answer to the actually best mon in the XY OU tier: Mega Mawile since it resists to Fairy-type, have a rly good defense statistics and can just will-o-wisp it
All these 3 mons aren't rly good of course, and shouldn't used in serious tournament games imo, but they definitely have more niches than Whimsicott, since they can check lot of threats while not being too much useless in general.
1) Doublade isn't a bad mon, it definitely deserves to be D-rank. It checks Gardevoir, Heracross, Alakazam and Medicham that are all troublesome for Stall teams, and since they actually dont use a lot anymore Shadow Ball, EQ and Fire Punch because Aegislash is in ubers, Doublade can act like a good answer so it has some space in some stall teams and therefore it's D rank.
2) Mantine like Doublade isn't rly bad either, it has Defog and call check well threats like Char-Y, Landorus-I and Keldeo to make some examples, because of that its D rank as well.
3) Weezing is D rank because it can check fairy-type mons like Clefable and Azumarill and because its a good answer to the actually best mon in the XY OU tier: Mega Mawile since it resists to Fairy-type, have a rly good defense statistics and can just will-o-wisp it
All these 3 mons aren't rly good of course, and shouldn't used in serious tournament games imo, but they definitely have more niches than Whimsicott, since they can check lot of threats while not being too much useless in general.
i can agree with your other points about u-turn and tourney usage but the Pinsir part is a little skewed. The thing is, you're assuming that pinsir actually even gets in more than once and in that time period rhyperior isn't receiving wishes or anything. But its mostly just pinsir actually coming in and doing something. Just to solely get pinsir in safely once, forget about twice, requires a huge amount of effort. For Pinsir to actually overpower rhyperior with CC it has to:
1. Come in once safely and CC
2. Come in safely (again) AND set up safely
This may be ez to do with pokemon like keldeo, with natural bulk and decent defensive typing, but pinsir has none of that and often just doesn't even switch in more than once in most matches. Honestly pinsir just doesn't get 3 free turns per match just to eliminate your counter; rhyperior is as sound as it gets with all the magnezones running about.
Remember that Mega Pinsir has a not bad statistics of defenses as well for an offensive mon (65 / 120 / 90) so it isn't frail either, it takes 50% from Stealth Rock but thats it, you are supposed to use Pinsir with a spinner / defogger. However I think that Rhyperior isn't a bad answer to it and to flying spam in general as well, but thats the only role it can do effectively in XY OU. Trick Room teams aren't much used and when they are, they prefered to have things like Exploud as sweeper (also they are mostly fun teams, not rly competitive ones) so Rhyperior doesn't shines in them too, and it has some bad flaws like the weakness to the most used typing: ground, fighting, steel and water. Because of that, as I already said, by me its fine in B- rank where it already is.
In the last update alexwolf posted I noticed that he was considering dropping Sharpedo from the rankings altogether unless somebody convinced him otherwise. As a person who has used it before I believe that Sharpedo should stay in D.
At a glance, one may wonder why someone would use Sharpedo in the first place. It faces competition from Greninja and Keldeo as a fast water type and from Mega Gyarados as a water type cleaner. Sharpedo even faces competition from Scolipede as a speed boost cleaner (which should really be lower than B+). However, Sharpedo has a niche as a pokemon that works extremely well as a late game sweeper on semi rain teams. When paired with Choice Specs/Life Orb Politoed, Sharpedo really shines to it's fullest potential.
Wait, I thought that any Politoed set without Damp Rock wasnt viable? Well, technically it didnt get a set of its own, just a special mention under the offensive Politoed set with Damp Rock, but that didnt stop me from trying it out. Interestingly enough, specs/lo Politoed has great offensive synergy with Sharpedo besides just providing rain. Sharpedo's two biggest counters, Ferrothorn and Mega Venusaur, are lured in by Politoed's presence and are absolutely destroyed by Focus Blast and Psychic respectively (each do something like. 65-70% depending on their set). Other bulky water resists are worn down quickly after switching into a specs Hydro Pump in the rain and scald also threatens pokemon like Azumarill and helps bluff a defensive set. Ironically, Politoed is one of the best wall breakers for rain teams however, it cant wall break to its fullest potential because it is forced to use a damp rock to support pokemon like kingdra and kabutops, who depend on rain unlike Sharpedo. Of course, specs Politoed has one major issue, and that is speed. A base 70 with no priority isnt really going to be sweeping teams in todays metagame. This is where Sharpedo comes in and cleans up. With rain, Sharpedo hits like a truck (harder than Kabutops for the record), and without rain it can still do its job well. Sharpedo also has aqua jet to get around Talonflame and weakened priority users or it can opt for Destiny Bond to fuck with pretty much anything. While Sharpedo may not be as good as something like Kabutops, it doesnt need an entire team build around it to succeed. With Sharpedo, Politoed can forego its damp rock and function as a rain setter, wall breaker, and stall breaker (sort of) all in one and Sharpedo's role complements Politoed's perfectly as a revenge killer and sweeper.
Here's what Sharpedo has over its competition
The Politoed + Sharpedo core doesnt need much support outside of itself unlike Politoed cores on dedicated rain teams. Sharpedo can take advantage of a much more offensively oriented Politoed too, while swift swimmers cant as they are too dependent on the rain. Greninja struggles to sweep due to the presence of scarfers and priority, both of which Sharpedo can get around. Keldeo relies too much on a choice scarf to sweep, thus making it very predictable and every (good) team should have a solid answer for it as well. Keldeo is also destroyed by Talonflame and birdspam in general. Mega Gyarados lacks speed before setting up, meaning it cant revenge kill and it has to take a hit to sweep. Mega Gyarados also takes up a mega slot. Finally, Scolipede has terrible stabs, underwhelming power, is walled by many things, destroyed by birdspam, and, for the record, should drop to B or lower as its Baron Pass sets arent that good anyways.
Before anyone is too quick to disregard this post please remember that:
1. I am arguing that Sharpedo should be D rank, not A
2. Politoed is (imo) a mandatory teammate. This doesnt automatically mean Sharpedo requires too much support to be ranked
3. Remember again that this post is meant to support Sharpedo for D rank
4. Ive actually used Sharpedo before and suggest that you guys try this core
5. Just because something like Keldeo is a generally better water type or that Kabutops is better under the right conditions doesnt make Sharpedo shit
Politoed @ Choice Specs
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Scald
- Focus Blast
- Psychic
Sharpedo @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Aqua Jet / Destiny Bond
- Crunch
- Protect
At a glance, one may wonder why someone would use Sharpedo in the first place. It faces competition from Greninja and Keldeo as a fast water type and from Mega Gyarados as a water type cleaner. Sharpedo even faces competition from Scolipede as a speed boost cleaner (which should really be lower than B+). However, Sharpedo has a niche as a pokemon that works extremely well as a late game sweeper on semi rain teams. When paired with Choice Specs/Life Orb Politoed, Sharpedo really shines to it's fullest potential.
Wait, I thought that any Politoed set without Damp Rock wasnt viable? Well, technically it didnt get a set of its own, just a special mention under the offensive Politoed set with Damp Rock, but that didnt stop me from trying it out. Interestingly enough, specs/lo Politoed has great offensive synergy with Sharpedo besides just providing rain. Sharpedo's two biggest counters, Ferrothorn and Mega Venusaur, are lured in by Politoed's presence and are absolutely destroyed by Focus Blast and Psychic respectively (each do something like. 65-70% depending on their set). Other bulky water resists are worn down quickly after switching into a specs Hydro Pump in the rain and scald also threatens pokemon like Azumarill and helps bluff a defensive set. Ironically, Politoed is one of the best wall breakers for rain teams however, it cant wall break to its fullest potential because it is forced to use a damp rock to support pokemon like kingdra and kabutops, who depend on rain unlike Sharpedo. Of course, specs Politoed has one major issue, and that is speed. A base 70 with no priority isnt really going to be sweeping teams in todays metagame. This is where Sharpedo comes in and cleans up. With rain, Sharpedo hits like a truck (harder than Kabutops for the record), and without rain it can still do its job well. Sharpedo also has aqua jet to get around Talonflame and weakened priority users or it can opt for Destiny Bond to fuck with pretty much anything. While Sharpedo may not be as good as something like Kabutops, it doesnt need an entire team build around it to succeed. With Sharpedo, Politoed can forego its damp rock and function as a rain setter, wall breaker, and stall breaker (sort of) all in one and Sharpedo's role complements Politoed's perfectly as a revenge killer and sweeper.
Here's what Sharpedo has over its competition
The Politoed + Sharpedo core doesnt need much support outside of itself unlike Politoed cores on dedicated rain teams. Sharpedo can take advantage of a much more offensively oriented Politoed too, while swift swimmers cant as they are too dependent on the rain. Greninja struggles to sweep due to the presence of scarfers and priority, both of which Sharpedo can get around. Keldeo relies too much on a choice scarf to sweep, thus making it very predictable and every (good) team should have a solid answer for it as well. Keldeo is also destroyed by Talonflame and birdspam in general. Mega Gyarados lacks speed before setting up, meaning it cant revenge kill and it has to take a hit to sweep. Mega Gyarados also takes up a mega slot. Finally, Scolipede has terrible stabs, underwhelming power, is walled by many things, destroyed by birdspam, and, for the record, should drop to B or lower as its Baron Pass sets arent that good anyways.
Before anyone is too quick to disregard this post please remember that:
1. I am arguing that Sharpedo should be D rank, not A
2. Politoed is (imo) a mandatory teammate. This doesnt automatically mean Sharpedo requires too much support to be ranked
3. Remember again that this post is meant to support Sharpedo for D rank
4. Ive actually used Sharpedo before and suggest that you guys try this core
5. Just because something like Keldeo is a generally better water type or that Kabutops is better under the right conditions doesnt make Sharpedo shit
Politoed @ Choice Specs
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Scald
- Focus Blast
- Psychic
Sharpedo @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Aqua Jet / Destiny Bond
- Crunch
- Protect
In the last update alexwolf posted I noticed that he was considering dropping Sharpedo from the rankings altogether unless somebody convinced him otherwise. As a person who has used it before I believe that Sharpedo should stay in D.
At a glance, one may wonder why someone would use Sharpedo in the first place. It faces competition from Greninja and Keldeo as a fast water type and from Mega Gyarados as a water type cleaner. Sharpedo even faces competition from Scolipede as a speed boost cleaner (which should really be lower than B+). However, Sharpedo has a niche as a pokemon that works extremely well as a late game sweeper on semi rain teams. When paired with Choice Specs/Life Orb Politoed, Sharpedo really shines to it's fullest potential.
Wait, I thought that any Politoed set without Damp Rock wasnt viable? Well, technically it didnt get a set of its own, just a special mention under the offensive Politoed set with Damp Rock, but that didnt stop me from trying it out. Interestingly enough, specs/lo Politoed has great offensive synergy with Sharpedo besides just providing rain. Sharpedo's two biggest counters, Ferrothorn and Mega Venusaur, are lured in by Politoed's presence and are absolutely destroyed by Focus Blast and Psychic respectively (each do something like. 65-70% depending on their set). Other bulky water resists are worn down quickly after switching into a specs Hydro Pump in the rain and scald also threatens pokemon like Azumarill and helps bluff a defensive set. Ironically, Politoed is one of the best wall breakers for rain teams however, it cant wall break to its fullest potential because it is forced to use a damp rock to support pokemon like kingdra and kabutops, who depend on rain unlike Sharpedo. Of course, specs Politoed has one major issue, and that is speed. A base 70 with no priority isnt really going to be sweeping teams in todays metagame. This is where Sharpedo comes in and cleans up. With rain, Sharpedo hits like a truck (harder than Kabutops for the record), and without rain it can still do its job well. Sharpedo also has aqua jet to get around Talonflame and weakened priority users or it can opt for Destiny Bond to fuck with pretty much anything. While Sharpedo may not be as good as something like Kabutops, it doesnt need an entire team build around it to succeed. With Sharpedo, Politoed can forego its damp rock and function as a rain setter, wall breaker, and stall breaker (sort of) all in one and Sharpedo's role complements Politoed's perfectly as a revenge killer and sweeper.
Here's what Sharpedo has over its competition
The Politoed + Sharpedo core doesnt need much support outside of itself unlike Politoed cores on dedicated rain teams. Sharpedo can take advantage of a much more offensively oriented Politoed too, while swift swimmers cant as they are too dependent on the rain. Greninja struggles to sweep due to the presence of scarfers and priority, both of which Sharpedo can get around. Keldeo relies too much on a choice scarf to sweep, thus making it very predictable and every (good) team should have a solid answer for it as well. Keldeo is also destroyed by Talonflame and birdspam in general. Mega Gyarados lacks speed before setting up, meaning it cant revenge kill and it has to take a hit to sweep. Mega Gyarados also takes up a mega slot. Finally, Scolipede has terrible stabs, underwhelming power, is walled by many things, destroyed by birdspam, and, for the record, should drop to B or lower as its Baron Pass sets arent that good anyways.
Before anyone is too quick to disregard this post please remember that:
1. I am arguing that Sharpedo should be D rank, not A
2. Politoed is (imo) a mandatory teammate. This doesnt automatically mean Sharpedo requires too much support to be ranked
3. Remember again that this post is meant to support Sharpedo for D rank
4. Ive actually used Sharpedo before and suggest that you guys try this core
5. Just because something like Keldeo is a generally better water type or that Kabutops is better under the right conditions doesnt make Sharpedo shit
Politoed @ Choice Specs
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Scald
- Focus Blast
- Psychic
Sharpedo @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Aqua Jet / Destiny Bond
- Crunch
- Protect
Wait what? Specs Toed wasn't on its Analysis? That thing killed early meta and junk (course was early meta.....).
I remember'd asking long time ago for a Sharpedo drop only for it to get refuted by most posters. While Sharpedo, in the simplest way, is the definition of a glass cannon, its a damn good one at that. It has the capability of beating out many mons through its normal attack spread, but the fact it contains Speed Boost + Destiny Bond is the true reason I feel it requires a placing of D rank cause the only other thing that can lay claim to a fast D-Bond is Mega Bannette (i think, I may be remembering wrong) and the slight difference is Sharpdeo doesn't sacrifice its offensive coverage through low power base moves (5 points higher is quite a bit + LO if ya are feeling good) and the ability to beat out the priority king Talon (through Speed Boost + Aqua Jet course). While I don't think its the most fantastic mon of all, it has a decent niche in the meta for D ranking but nothing else.
If you want to convince anyone that Sharpedo is viable on rain teams you will have to explain why it should be used over Swift Swimmers such as Kabutops, Kingdra, and Omastar, which are stronger, faster, and bulkier.In the last update alexwolf posted I noticed that he was considering dropping Sharpedo from the rankings altogether unless somebody convinced him otherwise. As a person who has used it before I believe that Sharpedo should stay in D.
At a glance, one may wonder why someone would use Sharpedo in the first place. It faces competition from Greninja and Keldeo as a fast water type and from Mega Gyarados as a water type cleaner. Sharpedo even faces competition from Scolipede as a speed boost cleaner (which should really be lower than B+). However, Sharpedo has a niche as a pokemon that works extremely well as a late game sweeper on semi rain teams. When paired with Choice Specs/Life Orb Politoed, Sharpedo really shines to it's fullest potential.
Wait, I thought that any Politoed set without Damp Rock wasnt viable? Well, technically it didnt get a set of its own, just a special mention under the offensive Politoed set with Damp Rock, but that didnt stop me from trying it out. Interestingly enough, specs/lo Politoed has great offensive synergy with Sharpedo besides just providing rain. Sharpedo's two biggest counters, Ferrothorn and Mega Venusaur, are lured in by Politoed's presence and are absolutely destroyed by Focus Blast and Psychic respectively (each do something like. 65-70% depending on their set). Other bulky water resists are worn down quickly after switching into a specs Hydro Pump in the rain and scald also threatens pokemon like Azumarill and helps bluff a defensive set. Ironically, Politoed is one of the best wall breakers for rain teams however, it cant wall break to its fullest potential because it is forced to use a damp rock to support pokemon like kingdra and kabutops, who depend on rain unlike Sharpedo. Of course, specs Politoed has one major issue, and that is speed. A base 70 with no priority isnt really going to be sweeping teams in todays metagame. This is where Sharpedo comes in and cleans up. With rain, Sharpedo hits like a truck (harder than Kabutops for the record), and without rain it can still do its job well. Sharpedo also has aqua jet to get around Talonflame and weakened priority users or it can opt for Destiny Bond to fuck with pretty much anything. While Sharpedo may not be as good as something like Kabutops, it doesnt need an entire team build around it to succeed. With Sharpedo, Politoed can forego its damp rock and function as a rain setter, wall breaker, and stall breaker (sort of) all in one and Sharpedo's role complements Politoed's perfectly as a revenge killer and sweeper.
Here's what Sharpedo has over its competition
The Politoed + Sharpedo core doesnt need much support outside of itself unlike Politoed cores on dedicated rain teams. Sharpedo can take advantage of a much more offensively oriented Politoed too, while swift swimmers cant as they are too dependent on the rain. Greninja struggles to sweep due to the presence of scarfers and priority, both of which Sharpedo can get around. Keldeo relies too much on a choice scarf to sweep, thus making it very predictable and every (good) team should have a solid answer for it as well. Keldeo is also destroyed by Talonflame and birdspam in general. Mega Gyarados lacks speed before setting up, meaning it cant revenge kill and it has to take a hit to sweep. Mega Gyarados also takes up a mega slot. Finally, Scolipede has terrible stabs, underwhelming power, is walled by many things, destroyed by birdspam, and, for the record, should drop to B or lower as its Baron Pass sets arent that good anyways.
Before anyone is too quick to disregard this post please remember that:
1. I am arguing that Sharpedo should be D rank, not A
2. Politoed is (imo) a mandatory teammate. This doesnt automatically mean Sharpedo requires too much support to be ranked
3. Remember again that this post is meant to support Sharpedo for D rank
4. Ive actually used Sharpedo before and suggest that you guys try this core
5. Just because something like Keldeo is a generally better water type or that Kabutops is better under the right conditions doesnt make Sharpedo shit
Politoed @ Choice Specs
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Scald
- Focus Blast
- Psychic
Sharpedo @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Aqua Jet / Destiny Bond
- Crunch
- Protect
Kind of irrelevant but I think its funny how you're underplaying scolipede's power when its rocking a crispy 120 base power stab and sharpedo needs rain support for its pathetic 80 bp waterfall to even do damage lmao.In the last update alexwolf posted I noticed that he was considering dropping Sharpedo from the rankings altogether unless somebody convinced him otherwise. As a person who has used it before I believe that Sharpedo should stay in D.
At a glance, one may wonder why someone would use Sharpedo in the first place. It faces competition from Greninja and Keldeo as a fast water type and from Mega Gyarados as a water type cleaner. Sharpedo even faces competition from Scolipede as a speed boost cleaner (which should really be lower than B+). However, Sharpedo has a niche as a pokemon that works extremely well as a late game sweeper on semi rain teams. When paired with Choice Specs/Life Orb Politoed, Sharpedo really shines to it's fullest potential.
Wait, I thought that any Politoed set without Damp Rock wasnt viable? Well, technically it didnt get a set of its own, just a special mention under the offensive Politoed set with Damp Rock, but that didnt stop me from trying it out. Interestingly enough, specs/lo Politoed has great offensive synergy with Sharpedo besides just providing rain. Sharpedo's two biggest counters, Ferrothorn and Mega Venusaur, are lured in by Politoed's presence and are absolutely destroyed by Focus Blast and Psychic respectively (each do something like. 65-70% depending on their set). Other bulky water resists are worn down quickly after switching into a specs Hydro Pump in the rain and scald also threatens pokemon like Azumarill and helps bluff a defensive set. Ironically, Politoed is one of the best wall breakers for rain teams however, it cant wall break to its fullest potential because it is forced to use a damp rock to support pokemon like kingdra and kabutops, who depend on rain unlike Sharpedo. Of course, specs Politoed has one major issue, and that is speed. A base 70 with no priority isnt really going to be sweeping teams in todays metagame. This is where Sharpedo comes in and cleans up. With rain, Sharpedo hits like a truck (harder than Kabutops for the record), and without rain it can still do its job well. Sharpedo also has aqua jet to get around Talonflame and weakened priority users or it can opt for Destiny Bond to fuck with pretty much anything. While Sharpedo may not be as good as something like Kabutops, it doesnt need an entire team build around it to succeed. With Sharpedo, Politoed can forego its damp rock and function as a rain setter, wall breaker, and stall breaker (sort of) all in one and Sharpedo's role complements Politoed's perfectly as a revenge killer and sweeper.
Here's what Sharpedo has over its competition
The Politoed + Sharpedo core doesnt need much support outside of itself unlike Politoed cores on dedicated rain teams. Sharpedo can take advantage of a much more offensively oriented Politoed too, while swift swimmers cant as they are too dependent on the rain. Greninja struggles to sweep due to the presence of scarfers and priority, both of which Sharpedo can get around. Keldeo relies too much on a choice scarf to sweep, thus making it very predictable and every (good) team should have a solid answer for it as well. Keldeo is also destroyed by Talonflame and birdspam in general. Mega Gyarados lacks speed before setting up, meaning it cant revenge kill and it has to take a hit to sweep. Mega Gyarados also takes up a mega slot. Finally, Scolipede has terrible stabs, underwhelming power, is walled by many things, destroyed by birdspam, and, for the record, should drop to B or lower as its Baron Pass sets arent that good anyways.
Before anyone is too quick to disregard this post please remember that:
1. I am arguing that Sharpedo should be D rank, not A
2. Politoed is (imo) a mandatory teammate. This doesnt automatically mean Sharpedo requires too much support to be ranked
3. Remember again that this post is meant to support Sharpedo for D rank
4. Ive actually used Sharpedo before and suggest that you guys try this core
5. Just because something like Keldeo is a generally better water type or that Kabutops is better under the right conditions doesnt make Sharpedo shit
Politoed @ Choice Specs
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Scald
- Focus Blast
- Psychic
Sharpedo @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Aqua Jet / Destiny Bond
- Crunch
- Protect
Also, i dont mean to double post but since this is a different topic I will. Keldeo should go back to A+.
Keldeo isn't as good as other S rank pokemon and lacks versatility. It is over reliant on choice items, which in tandem with it's lack of versatility make it very predictable.
While Keldeo is a great pokemon, it is undoubtedly the worst S rank mon. In comparison, it isnt nearly as versatile as the other S rank pokemon. It's two most common sets are both choice sets with little variety between the moves. The other (less common) sets it runs are expert belt and calm mind. These sets arent nearly as good as the choice sets and dont really get past any checks and counters to the more choice sets as well, unlike other S rank pokemon, such as Mega Mawile. Mega Mawile has only two sets yet it is far more versatile than Keldeo as both sets have a different list of checks and counters, while Keldeo's sets all struggle with the same set of checks and counters. Of course, Keldeo can change its coverage move to adapt to hitting these checks and counters, but its not that easy. All of Keldeo's coverage moves are piss weak and cant reliably 2hko these checks and counters without choice specs. With choice specs keldeo has to predict the switch in correctly and if it is wrong it is locked into a low base power move. Even if it is right the checks and counters could switch out, leaving Keldeo locked into its low base power coverage move. Keldeo has this problem on all of its sets as well. As good as it's choice sets are, being locked into one single move isnt ever a good thing. It is forced to predict correctly or lose a ton of momentum. Lets say Keldeo KO's something with a water move. Now Ferrothorn can come in and set up stealth rock or terrorize switch ins with Leech Seed + Protect. Or Ferrothorn could predict correctly and switch in, or it could switch in after Keldeo damages something with a water move. Obviously Ferrothorn isnt all that can take advantage of a Keldeo locked into a move either, it was just my example. The Mega wall breakers can all come in on secret sword and wreck shit too as well as anything that resists the move Keldeo is locked into. However, the most important reason why Keldeo should drop is that the metagame is slowly shifting away from it. With the banning of the Deos and now Aegislash the metagame has shifted drastically. Bisharp, whom Keldeo was offenses' best answer to, has gone down in usage. With the lack of Aegislash and hazards birdspam has gotten a lot better too. Pinsir is now free to run Close Combat and Staraptor is that much better at wall breaking, both of which greatly bolster birdspam's popularity as a playstyle. After the banning of Aegislash the Lati@s have improved a lot and they are both some of the best switch ins to Keldeo. Starmie is a lot more viable too and the bulky set with recover, reflect type, and natural cure is gaining in popularity which makes Keldeo's life that much worse. Assault Vest Azumarill, one of the best glues to offensive teams, is now better and more common than ever as it is no longer cock blocked by Kings Shield. And the icing on top of the cake (although it doesnt apply currently) is that Mega Mawile is going to be banned. Keldeo is one of offenses best checks to that monster because it resists Sucker Punch and can outspeed and OHKO with specs Hydro Pump (I think). Due to this combined with Keldeo's lack of versatility and dependency on choice items are why it should go back to A+ and why it probably shouldnt have gone to S to begin with.
Srn9130
You forgot to mention that that 120bp is a bug move with 85% accuracy ;)
Anyways i think Scolipede should move down to B, but Ill save that post for another day.
Keldeo isn't as good as other S rank pokemon and lacks versatility. It is over reliant on choice items, which in tandem with it's lack of versatility make it very predictable.
While Keldeo is a great pokemon, it is undoubtedly the worst S rank mon. In comparison, it isnt nearly as versatile as the other S rank pokemon. It's two most common sets are both choice sets with little variety between the moves. The other (less common) sets it runs are expert belt and calm mind. These sets arent nearly as good as the choice sets and dont really get past any checks and counters to the more choice sets as well, unlike other S rank pokemon, such as Mega Mawile. Mega Mawile has only two sets yet it is far more versatile than Keldeo as both sets have a different list of checks and counters, while Keldeo's sets all struggle with the same set of checks and counters. Of course, Keldeo can change its coverage move to adapt to hitting these checks and counters, but its not that easy. All of Keldeo's coverage moves are piss weak and cant reliably 2hko these checks and counters without choice specs. With choice specs keldeo has to predict the switch in correctly and if it is wrong it is locked into a low base power move. Even if it is right the checks and counters could switch out, leaving Keldeo locked into its low base power coverage move. Keldeo has this problem on all of its sets as well. As good as it's choice sets are, being locked into one single move isnt ever a good thing. It is forced to predict correctly or lose a ton of momentum. Lets say Keldeo KO's something with a water move. Now Ferrothorn can come in and set up stealth rock or terrorize switch ins with Leech Seed + Protect. Or Ferrothorn could predict correctly and switch in, or it could switch in after Keldeo damages something with a water move. Obviously Ferrothorn isnt all that can take advantage of a Keldeo locked into a move either, it was just my example. The Mega wall breakers can all come in on secret sword and wreck shit too as well as anything that resists the move Keldeo is locked into. However, the most important reason why Keldeo should drop is that the metagame is slowly shifting away from it. With the banning of the Deos and now Aegislash the metagame has shifted drastically. Bisharp, whom Keldeo was offenses' best answer to, has gone down in usage. With the lack of Aegislash and hazards birdspam has gotten a lot better too. Pinsir is now free to run Close Combat and Staraptor is that much better at wall breaking, both of which greatly bolster birdspam's popularity as a playstyle. After the banning of Aegislash the Lati@s have improved a lot and they are both some of the best switch ins to Keldeo. Starmie is a lot more viable too and the bulky set with recover, reflect type, and natural cure is gaining in popularity which makes Keldeo's life that much worse. Assault Vest Azumarill, one of the best glues to offensive teams, is now better and more common than ever as it is no longer cock blocked by Kings Shield. And the icing on top of the cake (although it doesnt apply currently) is that Mega Mawile is going to be banned. Keldeo is one of offenses best checks to that monster because it resists Sucker Punch and can outspeed and OHKO with specs Hydro Pump (I think). Due to this combined with Keldeo's lack of versatility and dependency on choice items are why it should go back to A+ and why it probably shouldnt have gone to S to begin with.
Srn9130
You forgot to mention that that 120bp is a bug move with 85% accuracy ;)
Anyways i think Scolipede should move down to B, but Ill save that post for another day.
Last edited:
Whimsicott isn't a good Pokemon in most games, but it shares a number of niches with other Pokemon that it combines, namely priority paralysis that affect SR Excadrill, priority Encore and Taunt, Memento, and Tailwind. It has a unique combination of supportive traits and an ok typing, when invested it should be able to take hits from things like Keldeo, Landorus-T, and Fire Blast-less Garchomp. I think D Rank could actually be appropriate, particularly with its uses on that niche BP team going around.
Mantine has garnered controversy but no one can argue that it's generally an inferior SpD Gyarados with Defog and Water Absorb, so it's placement is justified. Weezing is completely terrible against most Pokemon and once Mega Mawile gets banned, there won't be a single reason to use it. Sharpedo is a decent cleaner with Destiny Bond that is physical, but when you need everything at like 30% with SR up in order to clean, you don't have a great Pokemon, Sharpedo is pretty bad.
Mantine has garnered controversy but no one can argue that it's generally an inferior SpD Gyarados with Defog and Water Absorb, so it's placement is justified. Weezing is completely terrible against most Pokemon and once Mega Mawile gets banned, there won't be a single reason to use it. Sharpedo is a decent cleaner with Destiny Bond that is physical, but when you need everything at like 30% with SR up in order to clean, you don't have a great Pokemon, Sharpedo is pretty bad.
I'm still not sure about the placement of Keldeo but sometimes you have to hope it doesn't get a burn on something like Azumarill or it's pretty much crippled. Things like Venusaur, Amoonguss and Ferrothorn also hate burn as they just get worn down over time and are more prone to getting 2HKO'd. Things like Latias can get Pursuited so they aren't safe either. It can also run HP Flying to deal with them more easily. Also it can't only use choice items but e-belt and even Sub CM and LO as well as gimmicky sets that work like Sub Endeavor. I do agree with you that it's probably a worse Pokemon overall then the other S-ranks except maybe Landorus who I never really had issues with.
I bolded the parts of my previous post pertaining to why Sharpedo isnt outclassed by Swift Swimmers and I added brackets [] for clarifaction to my points.In the last update alexwolf posted I noticed that he was considering dropping Sharpedo from the rankings altogether unless somebody convinced him otherwise. As a person who has used it before I believe that Sharpedo should stay in D.
At a glance, one may wonder why someone would use Sharpedo in the first place. It faces competition from Greninja and Keldeo as a fast water type and from Mega Gyarados as a water type cleaner. Sharpedo even faces competition from Scolipede as a speed boost cleaner (which should really be lower than B+). However, Sharpedo has a niche as a pokemon that works extremely well as a late game sweeper on semi rain teams. When paired with Choice Specs/Life Orb Politoed, Sharpedo really shines to it's fullest potential.
Wait, I thought that any Politoed set without Damp Rock wasnt viable? Well, technically it didnt get a set of its own, just a special mention under the offensive Politoed set with Damp Rock, but that didnt stop me from trying it out. Interestingly enough, specs/lo Politoed has great offensive synergy with Sharpedo besides just providing rain. Sharpedo's two biggest counters, Ferrothorn and Mega Venusaur, are lured in by Politoed's presence and are absolutely destroyed by Focus Blast and Psychic respectively (each do something like. 65-70% depending on their set). Other bulky water resists are worn down quickly after switching into a specs Hydro Pump in the rain and scald also threatens pokemon like Azumarill and helps bluff a defensive set. Ironically, Politoed is one of the best wall breakers for rain teams however, it cant wall break to its fullest potential because it is forced to use a damp rock to support pokemon like kingdra and kabutops, who depend on rain unlike Sharpedo. Of course, specs Politoed has one major issue, and that is speed. A base 70 with no priority isnt really going to be sweeping teams in todays metagame. This is where Sharpedo comes in and cleans up. With rain, Sharpedo hits like a truck (harder than Kabutops for the record) [ignore the part about hitting harder than Kabutops as Sharpedo is barely more powerful and its irrelvent to why Sharpedo isnt outclassed by Kabutops] and without rain it can still do its job well. [Unlike Swift Swimmers] Sharpedo also has aqua jet to get around Talonflame and weakened priority users or it can opt for Destiny Bond to fuck with pretty much anything. While Sharpedo may not be as good as something like Kabutops, it doesnt need an entire team build around it to succeed. With Sharpedo, Politoed can forego its damp rock and function as a rain setter, wall breaker, and stall breaker (sort of) all in one and Sharpedo's role complements Politoed's perfectly as a revenge killer and sweeper.
Here's what Sharpedo has over its competition
The Politoed + Sharpedo core doesnt need much support outside of itself unlike Politoed cores on dedicated rain teams. Sharpedo can take advantage of a much more offensively oriented Politoed too, while swift swimmers cant as they are too dependent on the rain. Greninja struggles to sweep due to the presence of scarfers and priority, both of which Sharpedo can get around. Keldeo relies too much on a choice scarf to sweep, thus making it very predictable and every (good) team should have a solid answer for it as well. Keldeo is also destroyed by Talonflame and birdspam in general. Mega Gyarados lacks speed before setting up, meaning it cant revenge kill and it has to take a hit to sweep. Mega Gyarados also takes up a mega slot. Finally, Scolipede has terrible stabs, underwhelming power, is walled by many things, destroyed by birdspam, and, for the record, should drop to B or lower as its Baron Pass sets arent that good anyways.
Before anyone is too quick to disregard this post please remember that:
1. I am arguing that Sharpedo should be D rank, not A
2. Politoed is (imo) a mandatory teammate. This doesnt automatically mean Sharpedo requires too much support to be ranked
3. Remember again that this post is meant to support Sharpedo for D rank
4. Ive actually used Sharpedo before and suggest that you guys try this core
5. Just because something like Keldeo is a generally better water type or that Kabutops is better under the right conditions doesnt make Sharpedo shit
Politoed @ Choice Specs
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Scald
- Focus Blast
- Psychic
Sharpedo @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Aqua Jet / Destiny Bond
- Crunch
- Protect
In short, Sharpedo isnt outclassed by Swift Swimmers because it isnt dependent on rain. It can sweep in and out of rain, but it still benefits greatly from the rain. Due to this Specs Politoed is a great partner for Sharpedo as it can wall break well and provide rain to help Sharpedo if necessary. Pairing Specs Politoed with a Swift Swimmer is unwise because Swift Swimmers really need the extra 3 turns of rain from Damp Rock. Therefore, a team of Politoed and a Swift Swimmer will want another pokemon to do the wall breaking. This can lead to synergy issues if the other pokemon is a water type and the entire team would have to be a dedicated rain team in order to keep the rain up for the Swift Swimmer(s). A team consisting of Specs Politoed and Sharpedo wouldnt have to be a dedicated rain team and would therefore have more freedom with the other four team slots (and less trouble fitting in hazards and hazard removal). I almost forgot to mention Destiny Bond, which is pretty cool on a mon that is fast and actually has an offensive presence (Im looking at you Mega Banette and Frosglass).
This is a very good point and will get even more relevant if Mega Mawile gets banned.
Also, sorry for not noticing that you already explained why to use Sharpedo over Swift Swim users, i read your post in a hurry.
Finally, i am ok with adding Whimsicott to D rank, as priority Memento is very useful to set up sweeps on SmasPass and Baton Pass teams.
Yeah I don't see the point of Sharpedo being ranked. Out of everything that is available I'm never thinking to myself "Oh yeah Sharpedo seems like a good idea on this Rain Team or team in general, let me use that over all the other better options that I have" lol. I'm not convinced that any of the niches that it has is useful. Besides the fact that it has the defenses that makes paper look tough, and has to rely on subpar coverage due to over reliance of Protect just makes it worse imo. It might have to do with my bias of the whole idea of D rank, but I really don't think we need more crap to clutter up the viability ranks when so much stuff can fill the role of D rank in this meta. I'm for Sharpedo being unranked.
Just keep Keldeo in S. We keep coming to the same conclusion that it's a pretty great mon and then we start getting arguments like being forced into prediction games against stuff people put intentionally that forces these in the first place. Like yeah no duh it's going to be a general 50/50 against something with a Ferro on the opposing. The fact that it can actually win that match up though doesn't really prove anything. It covers so much stuff with just one set and the fact that it has other sets that can completely screw you over I think is enough to keep it S. Idc if it moves up or down honestly but Keldeo is one of those cases where people want it to have a crazy amount of options like Thundurus when they fail to have real expectations of what could actually warrant its current rank. If Keldeo is shittier in the current meta we'll know soon enough. Just cause an Azu slaps on an AV or just cause Starmie finally became relevant again doesn't mean that Keldeo is necessarily worse.
Just keep Keldeo in S. We keep coming to the same conclusion that it's a pretty great mon and then we start getting arguments like being forced into prediction games against stuff people put intentionally that forces these in the first place. Like yeah no duh it's going to be a general 50/50 against something with a Ferro on the opposing. The fact that it can actually win that match up though doesn't really prove anything. It covers so much stuff with just one set and the fact that it has other sets that can completely screw you over I think is enough to keep it S. Idc if it moves up or down honestly but Keldeo is one of those cases where people want it to have a crazy amount of options like Thundurus when they fail to have real expectations of what could actually warrant its current rank. If Keldeo is shittier in the current meta we'll know soon enough. Just cause an Azu slaps on an AV or just cause Starmie finally became relevant again doesn't mean that Keldeo is necessarily worse.
zzzz don't know how to hide text so here it is. Anyways this is how i think the rankings should look. I am willing to defend every singe one of my changes. I marked my changes with a * for convenience.
S Rank
Excadrill*
Landorus
Mawile (Mega)
Thundurus
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.
A+ Rank
Azumarill*
Charizard (Mega-Y)
Charizard (Mega-X)*
Clefable
Ferrothorn*
Garchomp
Greninja
Gyarados (Mega)
Heracross (Mega)*
Keldeo*
Latios
Medicham (Mega)*
Pinsir (Mega)
Talonflame
Terrakion
Tyranitar (Mega)
Venusaur (Mega)
A Rank
Bisharp
Dragonite
Gardevoir (Mega)
Gengar
Gliscor
Heatran*
Kyurem-B*
Landorus-T
Latias*
Mamoswine
Mew
Rotom-W
Scizor (Mega)
Tyranitar
A- Rank
Breloom
Chansey
Diggersby
Gyarados
Hippowdon*
Skarmory
Slowbro
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.
B+ Rank
Amoonguss*
Aerodactyl (Mega)*
Alakazam (Mega)*
Garchomp (Mega)
Kabutops
Manaphy*
Mandibuzz*
Politoed
Scolipede
Suicune
Tornadus-T
B Rank
Alomomola*
Chesnaught*
Kingdra
Lucario
Magnezone
Manectric (Mega)
Quagsire
Raikou
Scizor*
Starmie
Victini
Zapdos
Celebi*
B- Rank
Absol (Mega)
Ampharos (Mega)
Entei
Gothitelle
Rhyperior
Sableye
Staraptor
Weavile
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.
A+ Rank
A Rank
A- Rank
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.
B+ Rank
B Rank
B- Rank
Last edited by a moderator:
zzzz don't know how to hide text so here it is. Anyways this is how i think the rankings should look. I am willing to defend every singe one of my changes. I marked my changes with a * for convenience.
S Rank
Excadrill*
Landorus
Thundurus
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.
A+ Rank
Azumarill*
Charizard (Mega-Y)
Charizard (Mega-X)*
Clefable
Ferrothorn*
Garchomp
Greninja
Gyarados (Mega)
Pinsir (Mega)
Talonflame
Tyranitar (Mega)
A Rank
Bisharp
Dragonitehttp://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ferrothorn-qc-3-4-need-to-write.3502532/#post-5401922
Gengar
Landorus-T
Rotom-W
A- Rank
Hippowdon*
Skarmory
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.
B+ Rank
Amoonguss*
Aerodactyl (Mega)*
Alakazam (Mega)*
Garchomp (Mega)
Kabutops
Manaphy*
Politoed
B Rank
Alomomola*
Kingdra
Lucario
Quagsire
Scizor*
Celebi*
B- Rank
Absol (Mega)
Rhyperior
Staraptor
Hide Tabs are done by doing [ ] with hide in the first one and /hide in the second. Just what the crap makes Char X not S rank is my question?
zard x isn't s rank because
1. the 4x sr weak is a problem, ik we have defog and exca but fact is it isn't easy to clear hazards against good players, meaning that in many matches it ends up needing to be foddered
2. It has a lot more checks than people give credit, e.g. tran quay alomamola slowbro lando t hippo exca fast scarfers etc. Meaning even if it is able to get in and find that free turn, it isn't unstoppable.
3. It really isn't that versatile, the will-o-wisp set is good and is awesome at giving stall offensive presence, but the fact that it needs hazard control makes it hard for stall to rely on, meaning that things it is supposed check can be a problem if they have an sr user that beats your hazard remover. The only other real set is dragon dance
4. Even if you get sr off the field and the other team doesn't have a good check, a combo of flare blitz recoil/residual/prio makes it so it rarely can truly sweep.
With that said its still a great and deadly mon but just not the best of the best
1. the 4x sr weak is a problem, ik we have defog and exca but fact is it isn't easy to clear hazards against good players, meaning that in many matches it ends up needing to be foddered
2. It has a lot more checks than people give credit, e.g. tran quay alomamola slowbro lando t hippo exca fast scarfers etc. Meaning even if it is able to get in and find that free turn, it isn't unstoppable.
3. It really isn't that versatile, the will-o-wisp set is good and is awesome at giving stall offensive presence, but the fact that it needs hazard control makes it hard for stall to rely on, meaning that things it is supposed check can be a problem if they have an sr user that beats your hazard remover. The only other real set is dragon dance
4. Even if you get sr off the field and the other team doesn't have a good check, a combo of flare blitz recoil/residual/prio makes it so it rarely can truly sweep.
With that said its still a great and deadly mon but just not the best of the best
- Status