Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Eonic Hope]

Hmmm... I've used a Cobalion on my team over a Lucario. I feel, that in some cases, Cobalion would be a better choice for a team than Lucario. Often times, I end up with Cobalion KOing many of my opponents team, as well as spreading paralysis all around. It also can take hits. Like seriously: 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 220-260 (67.9 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
So Cobalion can take a super-effective hit from a base 155 attack at a move with a base power of 100. As well as the fact that it can Volt switch/t-wave then volt switch out of the way. Another stat: 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 200-236 (61.7 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Again, Cobalion can just T-Wave after that, as well as being able to volt switch. To add on to that, Cobalion has ways to deal with both Chansey/Blissey (CC), Skarmory (T-Wave, then Volt-switch), and all of the 4X weak dragons (a decently powerful HP ice).
Due to how it is generally outclassed in teams by Lucario (sometimes being better), but certainly has a niche, I believe it should be in the C teir(Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.) rank.

 

[skies]

Anyways, a Pokemon I'd like to see ranked is Cobalion. Cobalion might not be the first thing that pops to your mind when teambuilding, and it often doesn't. Cobalion perfectly counters Bisharp, one of the largest threats in the Metagame, even at +2, and gets a free +1 from Bisharp's Dark-type attacks. Cobalion can run a few sets, such sets include Swords Dance, Utility Pivot, and Calm Mind. Swords Dance is a really cool set, as Close Combat is really strong. It may appear to be outclassed by Terrakion, but Cobalion is much more bulky and has many more resistances, while lacking the sheer coverage of Terrakion. Bulky Pivot is another very interesting set. Cobalion has access to Stealth Rock, Taunt, Volt Switch, and Thunder Wave to make for a very cool Pokemon. It can also be a bit more offensive, by running Volt Switch / Stealth Rock / Close Combat / Hidden Power [Ice] or Taunt to get nice coverage and support the team. Then you've got Calm Mind. Calm Mind bolsters Cobalion's Special Attack and mediocre Special bulk, it also gets well ummm... Focus Blast, Flash Cannon, and Hidden Power. The main draw of Calm Mind is to make Cobalion very bulky on either side. Let's also not forget it's as fast as Keldeo and Terrakion, and has a higher Defense than Skarmory when uninvested:
0 Atk Mew Fire Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 70-84 (25.8 - 30.9%) -- 7.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Mew Fire Fang vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 76-90 (23.4 - 27.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
Cobalion is truly an unsung sword and it deserves C / C- Rank in my opinion. The problem with it is that it is outclassed by a lot of things such as Terrakion, Keldeo, and M-Zard X (as a setup sweeper). It itself does have a niche of these pivot moves and Taunt, but it just isn't amazing with its super common weaknesses. Also, fun fact: it's the only musketeer with 100% chance to survive a CB Talonflame's Brave Bird, that's pretty cool I guess. Of course it dies next turn thanks to Flare Blitz anyways ;].

I still do support this, I made this post back in May. However, I don't think it should go any higher than C-, despite what this paragraph says. I think that D/C- would be fine, really. This hopefully sparks people's discussion on Cobalion! :)

 

[alexwolf]

Alomomola can also sponge Knock Offs, something Slowbro can't really do. It's also not weak to U-turn and can actually outstall Aegislash if it gets a Scald burn, which Slowbro could only dream of.

• 252+ Atk Landorus-T Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 170-202 (43.1 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 0- Atk Tornadus-T Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 86-102 (21.8 - 25.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 4 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 148-177 (37.5 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 260-308 (65.9 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (after Slowbro gets its item Knocked Off, it can usually avoid the 2HKO from Knock Off without SR on the field, or at least pivot to scout Azumarill's move
  
• 44+ Atk Mega Scizor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 152-180 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
• +2 44+ Atk Mega Scizor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 304-358 (77.1 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and SR (never a OHKO after Lefties recovery, and if you don't have Lefties Knock Off hits for way less
• 4 Atk Mandibuzz Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 102-120 (25.8 - 30.4%) -- 0.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 0 Atk Gliscor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 90-108 (22.8 - 27.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Assuming Slowbro has either of Toxic / Thunder Wave and a Fire move, it can check or counter all those Pokemon despite Knock Off. The only Knock Off users that Slowbro really doesn't want to mess with are Mega Mawile and Bisharp, and Mega Mawile doesn't even need Knock Off to 2HKO Slowbro with SR up, or OHKO it at +2. Not to mention that Alomomola is even bigger set up bait for Mega Mawile, because Slowbro at least has the power to break Mega Mawile's Subs, Thunder Wave to cripple SD sets, and a Fire move to do a lot of damage back to Mega Mawile, while Alomomola only stands a 30% chance to not get wrecked by SD sets if Scald burns, and is completely hopeless against SubPunch sets. Basically, the only Knock Off user that Slowbro has trouble against and Almomomola not THAT much is Bisharp, but Alomomola still has no business messing with SD Bisharp. Actually, Knock Off cripples Mola more than Bro because Slowbro at least has one turn reliable recovery, whereas Alomomolas has to rely on Wish + Protect to stay healthy while on the field, which is way easier to take advantage of.

Not disagreeing with Almomomola for B- btw (i seriously underestimated this thing), just correcting a wrong statement.

As for the other nominations, here is my opinion:

- Suicune and Mew to B+: Definitely agree with this, and the reasons for this raise have already been explained.

- Mega Medicham and Mega Gardevoir: Imo, Mega Medicham is a shittier Mega Garde that hits on the physical side. Yes, of course it has its advantages and is worth using over Mega Gardy, especially if you are weak to special walls such as Chansey, but Mega Gardy is really the closest thing there is to compare to Mega Medicham, and Gardy is just superior. Why? First, Mega Gardy provides defensive synergy and great special bulk, unlike Mega Medicham, which can't check anything (not even Terrakion, whose STABs it resists). Mega Gardy is not that great vs offense but checking Pokemon such as Latios, Latias, Sub Kyu-B, and Keldeo (it can switch into Sacred Sword easily, and even Scald if necessary), which gives it some much needed switch-in chances, unlike Mega Medicham which depends solely on leading, double switches, U-turn / Volt Switch, and KOed teammates to switch in. Also, Mega Gardevoir has a much more spammable STAB move, thanks its Hyper Voice's superior offensive typing, lack of immunities, lack of nasty side effect, and lack of chance to miss. Yeah, Mega Medicham hits harder, but why does this even matter when Mega Gardy has even fewer counters and when Mega Medicham can't even bypass its checks as effectively as Mega Gardy can (Taunt for Chansey, WoW for Mega Scizor and Aegi, Hidden Power Ground for Aegi, a 2HKO with Modest Gardy if Aegi is already burned and SR is up). So, i would like to see Mega Gardevoir a rank higher than Mega Medicham because it's the superior wallbreaker, but on the other hand i am not sure if Mega Gardy is on Kyu-B's level, the closest Pokemon you can compare Mega Gardy with from A- rank. I could see Mega Gardevoir moving up with enough justification as easily as i could see it staying where it is, but Mega Medicham is not moving up, at least as long as Aegislash is in OU.

- Klefki to B-: I can see this happening, as Klefki is an excellent dual screener with all the tools to threaten Defog users (Toxic and Thunder Wave mainly, but Fairy STAB is also a possible choice), and priority Thunder Wave fits like a glove on offensive teams, as does Klefki's excellent typing, which lets it be useful even with little HP left. I still want to see more discussion about Klefki though, because there are some Defog users such as Skarmory and Mega Scizor that just don't give a shit about Klefki, and against those Defog users, Klefki can do almost nothing. The fact that both of those Pokemon fare well against Bisharp doesn't help either.

- Mega Aero to B: Totally agree, great offensive threat, great check to a ton of threatening offensive MEvos, as well as Talonflame, and it also has Roost and Taunt for utility against defensive teams and to stay alive for a long time.

- Diancie and Noivern: Both will probably get ranked somewhere in C rank.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

I know it recently got bumped, but I feel it needs to happen. Mega Heracross to A-. We all know how strong this thing is. Skill Link, the move pool to abuse Skill Link, and the ridiculous power it achieves with Skill Link. That, is a recipe for wall breaking. It is a common misconception that it has to run Earthquake for Aegislash, but it doesn't have to. With Swords Dance, this thing becomes a wrecking ball of such power comparable to monsters like Mawile and Kangaskhan. Offense has nothing that can switch into Heracross. With Swords Dance, stall has next to no chance against Heracross. It is easily one of the best stall breakers in the entire OU tier, right up there with Mega Gardevoir and Mega Mawile. Also, let me take you on an adventure with this things ridiculous power.

(no SD)
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 160-189 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 195-230 (48.2 - 56.9%) -- approx. 17.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 270-320 (62.5 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 116 Def Mega Scizor: 193-228 (56.1 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Thats already ridiculous power WITHOUT swords dance. With swords dance?

+2 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 319-376 (95.5 - 112.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 380-455 (94 - 112.6%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 530-630 (122.6 - 145.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 116 Def Mega Scizor: 384-453 (111.6 - 131.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 325-385 (92.3 - 109.3%) -- approx. 56.3% chance to OHKO


This thing has ridiculous stall breaking potential with swords dance. That CANNOT be denied. And because of the nature of skill link attacks, every time it uses one, it has a 31% chance to crit, allowing it to bullshit past some of its would be counters, like unaware clefable. Not bad at all. And it actually has good defensive stats, 80/115/105 is good for a monster such as heracross.

But alas, it does have flaws. Namely, a 4x weakness to flying, a weakness to psychic, a weakness to fire, and a weakness to fairy. While it IS only 4 weaknesses, they weigh in heavily. The 4x weakness to flying is significant. It means it can be revenge killed by Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Tornadus-T and Staraptor. 75 base speed allows it to outspeed the walls it destroys, but it just doesn't cut it against offensive teams. It is much like Azumarill in this regard, but it has weaknesses that Azumarill doesn't. I shouldn't be comparing it to an A+ rank pokemon, if I want it to get to A-. So lets compare it to some mons there, shall we?

Kyurem-B: Faster, about as bulky, can hold an item, but weaknesses to common attacking types (fighting, fairy, rock and steel) which also means a weakness to stealth rocks and isn't anywhere near as hard to switch into as Heracross.

Diggersby: Faster, not as strong, doesn't have the same coverage, frailer, but has priority and can hold an item.

Breloom: Slower, not as strong, much frailer, more weaknesses than heracross, but has spore and priority.

Mamoswine: Faster, not as strong, has stealth rock, a great offensive typing, has ice type priority, not as bulky, and weak to about every priority under the sun.

Manaphy: Has access to tail glow, isn't weak to any priority, bulkier, but is weak, and has WAY more counters.

I think Heracross is better than most of B+ rank and more comparable to the A- ranks. And when compared to the B+ ranks:

Mega Gardevoir: Frailer on the physical side, not as strong, easier to switch into(not by much, however), faster, not much bulkier on the special side(its HP is a huge factor) and has support options and an arguably more spammable STAB.

Mega Medicham: Stronger, can't switch in for shit, and its main STAB attack has a chance to miss and rip off half of Medichams health.

So when's all said and done, I think Mega Heracross should go up to A- rank.

edit: the link to heracross's analysis leads to gyarados pls fix

 

[Kyuzeth]

Alright, time to hit the dancefloor!

Mega Gardevoir (B+) -> A- | With all the qualities stated by alexwolf, I definitely think Mega Gardevoir deserves to rise at long last. As an all-around wallbreaker, Mega Gardevoir is indeed somewhat comparable to Black Kyurem: both have insane offensive power and several moves they can run to mess up their would-be checks/counters or force them out. This latter quality is much more apparent in Mega Gardevoir having a good support movepool, being capable of running Will-O-Wisp to take physical hits better or, as a last-resort, turn such an attacker into set-up bait for one of its teammates; the other support move is Taunt, which enables the ballroom dancer to force out defensive or supporting Pokémon, creating many scenarios during which the opponent switches out because they can do fuckall against it. Perhaps the most important asset Mega Gardevoir has is its main STAB, Hyper Voice, a 175-BP move factoring in Pixilate and STAB with glorious coverage that screams Substitute users to the grave and hits a huge amount of OU Pokémon for supereffective damage. Thirdly, Mega Gardevoir possesses 100 Speed and while this may not seem much, this makes it one of the very best wallbreakers on Sticky Web teams. Fourth off, Mega Gardevoir's base 135 Special Defense allow it to take a large multitude of special hits to switch in on. A fifth point is that Mega Gardevoir hits some of the most prominent Defoggers in the tier: the Eons and Mandibuzz, while still dealing large damage to non-specially defensive Zapdos and Skarmory, making sure the hazards it needs stay up at all times. All these factors make Mega Gardevoir incredibly difficult to switch in on. Lastly, Mega Gardevoir has amazing type synergy with many Pokémon that can cover up for its weaknesses, including Tyranitar, who can get up hazards for it and destroy Talonflame to ensure a safe wallbreaking trail for Mega Gardevoir.
Sadly, Mega Gardevoir is let down by a lack of overall resistances, vulnerability to priority and physical frailty with its poor 65 Defense and 68 HP, the latter of which detracts from its wonderful 135 Special Defense. While 100 Speed isn't too bad, it's still a bit slow and Mega Gardevoir finds itself outsped by Pokémon it should combat, such as Garchomp. Nevertheless, the few flaws that Mega Gardevoir has are patched up by many prominent advantages. Mega Gardevoir for A-.

 

[Stef0w]

A thing about klefki I have noted (might be wrong on this one), is that it can put your opponent in a really bad spot.

Let's say that klefki manages to get up 2 layers of spikes, and the right screen, and the defogger comes in.

2 scenario's can now play out:

1.Klefki sends out the Defog-absorber, which now has twice the defense, meaning it likely wont take too damage on the switch-in, and can to crazy.

2. The enemy uses defog, and a +2 poke can go to town on your team.

Klefki is the only hazard user that lets his team-mates come in without too much punishment, leaving the defog-absorber in a state with either double defense, or at +2, which easies prediction a lot.

Also: mixed defiant thundurus handles mega-scizor and skarmory, while klefki can usually handle the rest with Twave/Toxic.


It's really versitile, even if it suffers from 4MSS.

 

[Jin White]

lol why is Raikou still in B-?

It's pretty obvious by now how well Raikou fares against the current meta: it single-handedly takes on geniespam, birdspam, and Keldeo, and it has the options to threaten big tanks like M-Venu w/ Extrasensory or Aegislash with Shadow Ball. It has a couple viable and effective sets, notably Assault Vest w/ Volt Switch or CM with or without sub. Most of its viability right now comes from beating other top-tier mons and especially other electric-types 1v1.

It's not directly outclassed by Thundurus-I because it checks opposing Thundurus-I offensively & isn't nearly as frail, allowing it to pivot or set up much more easily than the SR-weak genie. It also beats Mega Mane 1v1, doesn't get walled by M-Venu if running CM + Extrasensory unlike the mega doge, can afford to run an item & doesn't take up a mega slot. The CM set is basically easy clean-up against cookie cutter genie spam & keldeo teams which are everywhere at the moment.

Its flaws are not nearly as crippling as say Mega Ampharos or Entei. Base 115 SpAtk means it lacks immediate power on the AV set. It has no way to beat Chansey and it struggles hard against sand offense (TTar & Sand Rush Exca), but all that means is that it makes a great partner with Keldeo, Breloom, Azumarill, and other 'mons who appreciate the genies & birds taken care of. Meanwhile its strengths are its blazing speed, solid pure-Electric typing, its coverage options, and most importantly the current trends of the meta which give it so many advantages based on team match-up alone.

He's perfectly deserving of an A- status, though I know people will start shitting themselves if I suggest such a drastic jump for an underused 'mon, and he needs support against Scarf or boosted speed EQs late-game which are prevalent enough in this meta to be relevant. B+ for Raikou, who is at least as good as if not better than Mega-Mane & regardless is a hugely underrated anti-meta threat :]

 

[Albacore]

Honestly, the only reson I nominated MHera for B+ as opposed to A- was because I felt it was too big a leap, and just wanted to see what people thought of it since it hadn't been discussed for a while. Apparently, absolutely everyone agreed with the rise, (at least, I haven't seen anyone object to it), so it seems like it could have a shot at A-.
Like MMedi and MGarde, it has powerful STABs not much likes switching into. Unlike them, it actually has quite a bit of utility vs offense, its good natural bulk enabling it to keep certain offensive threats in check as I explained in my previous post, is a wonderful counterlead, and has pretty much no actual counters (Gliscor gets snapped by SD+Rock Blast, and Clefable only barely survives and can't OHKO back, meaing that a stray critical hit on one of the Rock Blast hits, which has a good chance of happening, will spell its doom. It's defenitely on par with if not better than Kyurem-B in terms of pure wallbreaking prowess combined with solid bulk, and although Kyurem-B does have far more versatility, MHeracross is, if anything, easier to send in and harder to switch into. Mega-Heracross for A-.

 

[Kyuzeth]

Raikou definitely has some good qualities, but I wouldn't necessarily say it's better than Mega Manectric, as they each perform drastically different roles on different types of teams. The metagame has definitely turned to Raikou's favor, though, so I wouldn't mind Raikou moving to B. It's on the same level as Mega Manectric, but a long time ago I've elaborated on how their roles are completely different and there's a multitude of things that one can deal with that the other can't.

Speaking of Electric-types, I don't know if Zapdos is still good enough to keep in B+. It may function as a Defogger, but it's weak to SR. It can go on the offensive, but Raikou and Thundurus-I can boost and are a lot faster. Unlike either of them, Zapdos suffers from coverage issues when running Defog: if not running Heat Wave, it loses to Mega Scizor and other Steel-types. If not running HP Ice, it's setup bait for Garchomp, Tyranitar and Mega Tyranitar, the first of which is faster than Zapdos, even. Mega Manectric can Volt Switch the fuck outta there after Intimidating something and still get away from a +1 Mega T-Tar, however.
All in all, I think Zapdos has fallen from grace and should drop to B.

Hide

So let's give a brief summary of Pokémon discussed to move!

Mega Charizard Y (A) -> A+

Mega Aerodactyl (B-) -> B

Mega Gardevoir (B+) -> A-

Mega Heracross (B+) -> A-

Raikou (B-) -> B/B+

Suicune (B) -> B+

Mew (B) -> B+

Klefki (C+) -> B-

 

[Jacks0n]

Raikou to B Raikou is completely deserving of B. Its great speed tier and respectable sp.attack, along with its solid resistances, respectable bulk and great utility and momentum means it is a huge threat to offensive teams, the most common team archetype in the meta. Solidly checking some dangerous threats like mega pinsir and thundy, while providing invaluable momentum with volt switch means it can switch in on threats, either kill them or force them out, and then switch to the preffered pokemon. It has competition as an electric type from thundy, but its greater speed, bulk, and useful resistances means it has a great niche in OU, easily comprable to the likes of conkeledurr and luc.

Also why arent Mew and Suicune B+ yet!?

 

[Jin White]

Raikou definitely has some good qualities, but I wouldn't necessarily say it's better than Mega Manectric, as they each perform drastically different roles on different types of teams. The metagame has definitely turned to Raikou's favor, though, so I wouldn't mind Raikou moving to B. It's on the same level as Mega Manectric, but a long time ago I've elaborated on how their roles are completely different and there's a multitude of things that one can deal with that the other can't.

Link to that discussion? Would be interested to see it. So Mega Manectric can get past Ferrothorn & nail other Steel-types, while Raikou can get past M-Venusaur & boost for a sweep. Mega Mane needing a turn to megavolve means Keldeo can outspeed & OHKO with Hydro Pump, which is hilarious. The opportunity cost for using Mega Mane is much, much higher right now than for using Raikou.

 

[Kyuzeth]

Link to that discussion? Would be interested to see it. So Mega Manectric can get past Ferrothorn & nail other Steel-types, while Raikou can get past M-Venusaur & boost for a sweep. Mega Mane needing a turn to megavolve means Keldeo can outspeed & OHKO with Hydro Pump, which is hilarious. The opportunity cost for using Mega Mane is much, much higher right now than for using Raikou.

I can no longer find it, as it's literally been months since that discussion; sorry. One good quality about Manectric, though, is that regular Manectric can come in on a well-predicted Electric-type move, get a +1 in Special Attack, then Mega Evolve and pull off a sweep. It's risky and requires some prediction, but I've had several Mega Manectric sweeps by coming in on a Thunder Wave or Thunderbolt.
Also, keep this in mind: Mega Evolutions are chosen to adapt to the team's needs. This applies to every single one of them. Once Mega Evolved, Mega Manectric is an awesome scout thanks to 135 Speed and Special Attack.

I'll give a short summary.
Mega Manectric
+ Performs several roles with just one set: scout, late-game cleaner and hole puncher
+ Fire-type coverage to blast past Steel- and Grass-types (except Mega Venusaur)
+ Complete coverage with Thunderbolt, Flamethrower/Overheat, HP Ice and Volt Switch
+ Fantastic 135 Speed with Intimidate and Volt Switch make it a fantastic scout
+ 135 Special Attack makes it an awesome late-game cleaner
+ Pairs exceptionally well with set-up sweepers
+ Can beat +1 Mega Gyarados by outspeeding and OHKOing with Thunderbolt after SR damage
- Specially frail
- No boosting options
- May find itself not strong enough to break through several Pokémon
° Can't hold items, but immune to Trick/Switcheroo

Raikou
+ Can run a variety of sets thanks to well-balanced stats
+ 115 Special Attack and Speed are pretty nice
+ 100 Special Defense means it has good special resilience after one CM
+ CM + 3 Attacks is quite powerful and has good coverage
+ AV can check several special powerhouses and provides great team support
- Physically frail
- Slight case of 4MSS on CM set (no HP Ice means not getting past Garchomp; no Extrasensory means Mega Venusaur walls)
- Has more trouble breaking past Steel-types (bulky Mega Scizor sets up on it)
- Outsped by +1 Mega Tyranitar, +1 Mega Gyarados and Mega Aerodactyl, the former two of which always OHKO with Earthquake

Both (summary)
+ Fast, powerful, versatile Electric-types that serve multiple purposes
- Can't easily get past Tyranitar, Mega Tyranitar and Dragon-types like Garchomp and Black Kyurem

What I've also been considering and am going to try out for sure is a Dual-Electric core with Mega Manectric and Raikou. Mega Manectric incinerates the Steel-types and fast sweepers that Raikou resp. can't break through easily and is outsped by, while providing Intimidate support to give Raikou a large amount of set-up bulk and proceed to sweep teams.

 

[Baharoth]

Raikou definitely has some good qualities, but I wouldn't necessarily say it's better than Mega Manectric, as they each perform drastically different roles on different types of teams. The metagame has definitely turned to Raikou's favor, though, so I wouldn't mind Raikou moving to B. It's on the same level as Mega Manectric, but a long time ago I've elaborated on how their roles are completely different and there's a multitude of things that one can deal with that the other can't.

Speaking of Electric-types, I don't know if Zapdos is still good enough to keep in B+. It may function as a Defogger, but it's weak to SR. It can go on the offensive, but Raikou and Thundurus-I can boost and are a lot faster. Unlike either of them, Zapdos suffers from coverage issues when running Defog: if not running Heat Wave, it loses to Mega Scizor and other Steel-types. If not running HP Ice, it's setup bait for Garchomp, Tyranitar and Mega Tyranitar, the first of which is faster than Zapdos, even. Mega Manectric can Volt Switch the fuck outta there after Intimidating something and still get away from a +1 Mega T-Tar, however.
All in all, I think Zapdos has fallen from grace and should drop to B.

Hide

So let's give a brief summary of Pokémon discussed to move!

Mega Charizard Y (A) -> A+

Mega Aerodactyl (B-) -> B

Mega Gardevoir (B+) -> A-

Mega Heracross (B+) -> A-

Raikou (B-) -> B/B+

Suicune (B) -> B+

Mew (B) -> B+

Klefki (C+) -> B-

Without Heatwave Zapdos only loses to specially defensive SD Scizor, Tbolt does more than enough damage to offensive or pure physical defensive sets and other Steeltypes bar Ferrothorn. It even beats Aegi 1on1 with Tbolt. Heatwave is only needed if your team has trouble with SD Scizor/Ferro otherwise your better off using Toxic or HP Ice. Especially Toxic hits almost everything that Tbolt cant touch, like groundtypes, TTar, Zard X, the Latis and special walls.

Zapdos is still a solid counter for Pinsir and Landorus and can check a large amount of other stuff like Thundurus, Azumarill, Talonflame, Gyarados, Bisharp, Gengar etc. With Toxic it even checks the Latis. Imo thats enough to justify at least B+. Landorus alone is a big reason to use it considering that there are a whooping 3 pokemon that can counter it safely including Zapdos and unlike spD Gliscor and CBB Nite he doesnt lose to Hp Ice.

 

[Ropeburn]

I totally agree with bumping Raikou to B. Right now, it's such an effective pokemon to deal with Genie spam, it checks flying spam, as well as numerous of the A pokemon effectively. I have a replay to prove that Raikou is an effective pokemon provided the proper support:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-141954337

Sure it wasn't the MVP of that match (The only reason it wasn't MVP was because he was running Jolly Talonflame), but the amount of pressure it put on my opponent allowed me to whittle down his team to a point where I could clean up with Chomp. I feel that B would be a great match for Raikou.

 

[Jin White]

why do people do that though. no one besides Kyuzeth disputed anything i said about raikou being b+ if not a- and yet they lower it to b instead. is it just for the sake of being controversial or what

?_?

kyuzeth says it's on par w/ mega mane at b, i say it easily deserves a higher rank for reasons of better initial speed & more versatility in its sets & the boon of holding an item & still getting to use an A/S mega like zard x, mawile, m-venusaur, etc. i also find its coverage moves (ghost/psychic versus mane's overheat & flamethrower) more useful in general. Regardless, straight comparisons between pokémon don't work well in this game; there are too many unique factors contributing to each pokémon's viability.

 

[skies]

My main gripe with Raikou is that if it chooses to have Aura Sphere then it loses so much, but without it, then many other Pokemon walk over it like Excadrill, Tyranitar, and Ferrothorn. It's fairly good, but I still wouldn't rather use it over Mega Manectric because, while it does have a faster initial Speed, people are making it out to be like 30 ahead? No, it's only 10, and while this is important, people forget Manectric also has an immunity pre-Mega Evolving, while Raikou has a useless ability at all times. Raikou isn't as fast, strong, or has as wide coverage. And by the last one, what I mean is this is what Raikou's coverage consists of: Thunderbolt, Volt Switch, Hidden Power, Signal Beam, Shadow Ball, Extrasensory, and I guess Weather Ball? Of these, the highest base powered move without STAB is Weather Ball, in the weather, and that's not consistent at all. The highest powered ones are its STAB moves. Now, looking at Mega Manectric, it has Thunderbolt, Volt Switch, Hidden Power, Flamethrower, Overheat, and Signal Beam. Looking at this, do you see how Mega Manectric has the smaller movepool? It doesn't matter at times because the power of its moves are higher than Raikou's. And what set exactly is it that people rave about? Is it Assault Vest, Life Orb, or Specs? Because, if AV then it is not stronger than MM. MM will be weaker w/ LO and Specs, I'll give you that. But, even after all this, and what you may have read as a hate against Raikou and a love with Mega Manectric, I actually agree on moving Raikou up to be equal with Mega Manectric, but not above. They're very similar in my eyes and shouldn't be ranked differently.

 

[Ropeburn]

why do people do that though. no one besides Kyuzeth disputed anything i said about raikou being b+ if not a- and yet they lower it to b instead. is it just for the sake of being controversial or what

?_?

kyuzeth says it's on par w/ mega mane at b, i say it easily deserves a higher rank for reasons of better initial speed & more versatility in its sets & the boon of holding an item & still getting to use an A/S mega like zard x, mawile, m-venusaur, etc. i also find its coverage moves (ghost/psychic versus mane's overheat & flamethrower) more useful in general. Regardless, straight comparisons between pokémon don't work well in this game; there are too many unique factors contributing to each pokémon's viability.

Raikou is an amazing pokemon, but putting it in the same rank as Mega Heracross/Medicham (Insanely strong wall breaker), Scizor (Excellent all-around pokemon), Quagsire (an important stall pokemon), Politoed (The main rain abuser), and Mega Gardevoir seems a bit much.

 

[Jukain]

don't agree with moving up keys. fairy lock is p damn cool, but klefki can't sr, which is significant because then you need something else to do that. due to this and other reasons (mainly taunt), i can't see it above azelf which it is currently in the same rank as, and don't see it on the same level of the current b- ranks.

agree with moving up raikou. it's a really generally applicable thundy answer, way better than mega manec at that, while having coverage in esensory for venu that manec doesn't have, and versatility to run a few different sets that again manec doesn't have. i think there's no problems putting it in the same rank as mega gardevoir, as its matchup vs offense is simply so much better because it beats thundy and it's significantly more versatile.

---

sylveon needs to move down, and far. it is, putting it flatly, bad, as someone who actually tried forever to like it. ya special sponge, the only reason really to use it over blobs is fairy typing and offensive presence. however i'd even argue that the fairy typing is the only major advantage, as just hyper voice leaves sylveon open to so much. this is not enough of a niche for it to establish a significant presence in the metagame, as it has shit physical bulk unless heavily invested, then you have not enough special bulk to wall things, and generally has little reason to be used over clefable, which passes the same wishes while having significantly better physical bulk, that actually lets it handle some tough physical threats; has two excellent abilities; has one-turn recovery or wish + protect; has much better coverage options; and has a variety of movesets so it can be a stallbreaker (stored power cm), sweeper, setup check, sr setter, greninja + latis check, etc. despite sylveon's advantage in special bulk, it's not enough to warrant using it over the generally better clefable. when do you see a sylveon in a high-level match? never. when do you see clefable in a high-level match? very frequently. i think this speaks for itself.

what i was trying to show with that, is that sylveon is not necessarily outclassed, but rather fits this piece of the definition of c rank.

Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon

this is sylveon in a nutshell. i'm thinking c, tbh. my judgment of this is that it's worse than celebi, which should be in c+ anyways, but that's not the point, should be at least in the same rank based on this. celebi doesn't really have that much competition for its niche; it doesn't take up a mega slot, and it's a bulky grass that, beating keld, loom, and stuff like azum/exca set-withstanding as with the others, can beat lando-i and set up sr if needed. meanwhile, sylveon faces abundant competition for its role, as i've illustrated.

---

crawdaunt should move down on similar grounds. it's not worth using over other offensive waters, especially azumarill and mega gyarados. it's strong, but so are they, and is very one-dimensional. it is basically a specialized hole puncher, but it's slow and frail. it does have priority, so it can revenge kill things, but it's easily checked by so many things. keldeo, azumarill, and mega gyarados are switch-ins, and every electric and every fighting-type, as well as stuff like mega venusaur, kyurem-b, mawile etc are too big of pains for it to get through and thrive. it doesn't really check much itself, having few switch-in opportunities/openings against many teams. it's kinda good vs stall but pretty bad vs offense. i can't see it with anything in b- rank, which are much less do-nothing pokemon which actual good bulk and typing that lets them beat things. it's really only viable in tr, lol. throw it in c with exploud.

 

[skies]

Agreeing with moving Sylveon down, disagree with Crawdaunt moving down. Will put more thoughts later but basically: Sylveons just not that good, as Jukain said. Crawdaunt is fine because it does have STAB Knock Off and it's hard af to switch into and adaptability is good as well, plus, Sword dance just kinda walks over Stall. But is matchup reliant and slow, not bulky.

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

which passes the same wishes while having significantly better physical bulk

8 points is not significant
40 extra special defense is significant
sylveon not being retardedly weak and essentially being a choice specs clefable is significant:
4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 20 HP / 0 SpD Deino: 684-808 (273.6 - 323.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 20 HP / 0 SpD Deino: 948-1120 (379.2 - 448%) -- guaranteed OHKO
sylveon being able to hit through subs is significant

 

[Karxrida]

8 points is not significant
40 extra special defense is significant
sylveon not being retardedly weak and essentially being a choice specs clefable is significant:
4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 20 HP / 0 SpD Deino: 684-808 (273.6 - 323.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 20 HP / 0 SpD Deino: 948-1120 (379.2 - 448%) -- guaranteed OHKO
sylveon being able to hit through subs is significant

Scaring out a Kyurem-B behind a Substitute is hilariously significant.

 

[Baharoth]

Sylveon is a difficult case imo. I ve tried it on several balanced teams so far and its performance was decent overall.

It does have quite a few flaws, its a complete momentum killer as its forced to use protect + wish to heal itself. Unlike other special walls it cant come in against a special attack, heal off the damage as the opponent switches out and then switch out itself, no it has to stay in for another turn giving the opponent time to set up or what ever. Its wish passing ability is also somewhat limited. Its bulk, while solid, isnt enough to come in on attacks, use wish and switch out to something else to pass the wish. I mean it can but then it will be on ~60% life the next time it comes in and might end up beeing 2hkoed so at the end of the day the only realy efficient wish passer in the tier is probably Chansey who takes so little damage from special attacks that she can pass wishes without having to heal herself all the time. Hypervoice, while powerful, also gives free switch ins for a bunch of annoying things like Heatran and Scizor among others.

However despite those flaws it still does a great job as a special tank capable of taking hits from the likes of Keldeo, Greninja, Latios, Thundurus, Aegislash (without Ironhead/Flashcannon) and pretty much everything else without SE attacks. As another bonus it also deals massive damage to all these threats making it an ideal switch in. Its also a good check against things like KyuB, Tyranitar, Terrakion and even Mega Medicham. And while handling all these threats fairly well it also provides Heal Bell support and from time to time, wish support.

At the end of the day I think Sylveon is good enough to stay somewhere in the B ranks though i wouldnt mind if it goes down to B- because it does have its share of flaws. C would be underselling it imo, the mons there are far worse than Sylveon is.

 

[Aragorn the King]

I've always thought Sylveon was rather underrated. Its special bulk is much better than Clefable's, and allows it to handle common Special Attackers like Landorus, Mega Gardevoir, and Greninja while being physically defensive, something Clefable cannot do. Depending on the defensive stat Clefable invests in, it will always be frail on the other side. It also boasts much more power than Clefable and the ability to hit through Substitutes, which is nice. Not necessary, but nice. It also has niche Calm Mind Baton Pass and Specs sets that add to its viability. Clefable is a much better Pokemon in my opinion, as it has two great abilities and phenomenal coverage for Calm Mind sets. When compared to Chansey, its Defense is much better, it has offensive presence, and it has a much better typing, which makes it worth it sometimes. When looking at the C rank, you see Pokemon that face immense competition for their roles, like Seismitoad, really don't have a role, like Zygarde and Houndoom, or just don't have an extremely strong niche that warrants using on a large amount of teams. Sylveon really isn't like that in my opinion, as it has the mixed bulk to differentiate it from Clefable and the physical bulk, offensive presence, and defensive typing to differentiate it from Chansey. It's actually really hard to rank, but I think C is too harsh. I checked out PO to see what they ranked it, and they have it in C, so maybe it is right. However, they have Infernape blacklisted, Ampharos in C rank, and Tyranitar in A- rank, so I don't think they're the best at ranking things, tbh.

Crawdaunt, however, I really feel it's perfect in B-. It's very one dimensional, but so are Absol, Mega Alakazam, Entei, Rhyperior, Staraptor, and Weavile. B- seems to me to be a collection of viable Pokemon that are good, but either have niches too small to be complete staples in the metagame, diverse Pokemon that can't specialize in anything completely without sacrificing utility, or completely solid Pokemon that have the same niche as something ranked higher, but play significantly different than it. All of the one dimensional Pokemon I mentioned "suffer" from too small of a niche to be staples, Victini + Ampharos "suffer" from being diverse, but unable to specialize in something without sacrificing utility from one of its other sets, and Raikou and Aerodactyl should move up to B rank anyway. Crawdaunt fits in with the usable but somewhat mediocre Pokemon in B-; it doesn't, in my opinion, epitomize the word mediocre, like Togekiss, Infernape, or Starmie.

Actually, now that I look at it, Sylveon is very mediocre. Pokemon in the B rank should have niches in the metagame, but just need too much support to be staples. They're better than B- Pokemon, who tend to have niches too small or give up too much when specializing in something. Sylveon is neither of these two; it's just kinda... blah. It's something that provides support to a team and can actually act as a threat without giving up viability, but lacks an important niche. It's actually pretty similar to Togekiss, although I'd rather use Togekiss for the Speed, Nasty Plot, Roost, Defog, and Thunder Wave. Togekiss is a jack-of-all-trades Pokemon, while Sylveon can do one thing reliably, but faces competition from two well-defined Pokemon in OU. I think it's better than the Pokemon in the C rank, barring Celebi and Cresselia who are C+ in my eyes, but worse than most C+ Pokemon.

 

[alexwolf]

So, here is the next list of updates:

Mega Gardevoir: B+ ---> A-
Mew: B ---> B+
Suicune: B ---> B+
Alomomola: C+ ---> B-
Mega Aerodactyl: B- ---> B
Noivern: Unranked ---> C-
Klefki: Stays in C+
Gliscor: A- ---> A
Raikou: B- ---> B
Chesnaught: B ---> B-
Diancie: Unranked ---> C
Sylveon: B ---> B-
Crawdaunt: B- ---> C+

Mega Gardevoir: The fact that puts it a rank above Mega Medicham is its usefulness against offensive teams, thanks to a good typing and great special bulk, as well as a way more spammable STAB. Mega Gardevoir is more comparable to Kyu-B than Mega Medicham as a wallbreaker, as both Pokemon fare very well against slow teams and are decent against offensive teams too, checking some key offensive Pokemon (Latios, Latias, Keldeo, Thundurus, Mega Venusaur). Kyu-B has a ton more bulk than Mega Medicham but Mega Gardevoir is not SR weak, and both Pokemon can defeat their checks and counters with moveslot changes.

Mew: This was long overdue, Mew's Knock Off + WoW + Taunt is an amazing stallbreaker and is able to weaken whole teams on itself, while having excellent special bulk. Reliable recovery and WoW also make it able to bypass common problems of Psychic-types, such as Tyranitar, Mega Scizor, and Bisharp, which is great. There is also the Defog set, which is an excellet Defog user while retaining some of its stallbreaking qualities. Mew might even be worthy of A-, but B+ is fine for now.

Suicune: Bulky as fuck after a CM and most Pokemon struggle to even 2HKO it, while Scald fucks up many would be checks, such as Kyurem-B, Breloom, and physical Thundurus. Many teams that don't take it into account when teambuilding can easily lose against it, so it's not hard to see why Suicune is deserving of the B+ rank status for its bulky sweeping set.

Alomomola: Passes huge Wishes easily, has great mixed bulk, and never dies, while being very annoying with Toxic and Scald, Alomomola going to B- is another change that was long overdue.

Mega Aerodactyl: Excellent offensive threat with a very significant defensive presence, being able to check big offensive names such as Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Mega Charizard X, Mega Gyarados, Mega Charizard Y, and Mega Tyranitar. Its wide coverage and access to Taunt and Roost also make it a valuable asset against defensive teams, which always have to scout for its coverage moves and a Taunt leaves them as set up bait for Mega Aero's partners. Very deserving of the B rank status.

Noivern: Meru explained it better than i can, but basically Noivern sits at an amazing Speed tier, being able to outspeed even Greninja, a huge pain in the ass for offensive teams, while packing a decent amount of punch with its high powered STABs and good coverage. Taunt, decent bulk, and decent typing also give it some switch-in chances and utility against defensive Pokemon, making it a not completely one dimensional Pokemon, such as for example Greninja. Of course it has multiple flaws, such as SR weakness, mediocre power, unreliable STABs (Hurricane is great but 70% accuracy sucks, same for Focus Blast, which is Noivern's only chance against Tyranitar and Heatran), and needing to rely on Draco Meteor to KO a lot of offensive Pokemon, which leaves it set up bait after, but C- is good enough for this fella.

Diancie: Very unsure about this, but from the comments i got from some good battlers i talked with, Diancie should be ranked somewhere in C, so i am putting it in the middle atm and we will see how it goes. I really have no experience and thus no idea about Diancie's viability guys, so don't sweat it if Diancie is misplaced, we can fix that easily in the next weeks.

Klefki: Stays in C+ rank because it lacks Stealth Rock and is somewhat passive, relying mainly on status to threaten the opponent, outside of setting up screens. Spikes are ok but nothing special in OU, especially when you lack Taunt to at least ensure they can stay up. Klefki is a decent choice in HO teams, but it's too passive to go to B-.

Gliscor: Gliscor is very comparable to Landorus-T, with Landorus-T being better offensively (great Scarf set), and Gliscor being better defensively (SubToxic, SpD with Knock Off, even SR + Taunt + U-turn). Gliscor is one of the most versatile defensive threats, able to do so many different things for a team and deal with such a wide variety of Pokemon depending on its set, it's truly worthy of the A rank. If you don't believe me, just check the WCup logs, Gliscor has been doing a hell good of a job showcasing its usefulness there.

Raikou: Everyone already explained pretty well why Raikou is on the same level with Mega Manectric, if not a bit higher, so putting it in B rank shouldn't need any explanation at this point.

Chesnaught: Chesnaught is a very situational defensive Pokemon, and it even fails to deal with one of the Pokemon it used to deal with well, Aegislash. Yeah, checking Excadrill, Bisharp, Mega Tyranitar, and Mega Gyarados is cool, but Chesnaught is not that hard to wear down, especially under sand, and struggles against most S and A+ rank threats (the entire S rank, Azumarill, Keldeo (Hidden Power Flying and Scald both suck), Greninja, Mega Pinsir, Mega Scizor, Talonflame, Fire Blast Chomp, Clefable). It has a ton of common weaknesses, lacks reliable recovery to keep up with some big offensive threats, and invites some really dangerous Pokemon such as CM Clefable, Mega Charizard Y, and Mega Charizard X to switch in for free.

Sylveon: Check Jukain's post on the same page, although he is underselling it a bit.

Crawdaunt: Check Jukain's post on the same page.


Possible rank changes to discuss:

Sylveon falling to C+
Mew rising to A-
Mega Charizard Y rising to A+
Azelf rising to B-
Celebi rising to C+
Cresselia rising to C+
Conkeldurr falling to B-

Remember though that the verdict about Aegislash's tiering is coming soon, so no update will happen until we learn what happens with Aegislash. Those are just some Pokemon you can discuss until we learn news about Aegislash, not Pokemon whose rank will change in the next few days.

 

[Gloating]

Mega Charizard Y should definitely be moved to A+ maybe even S, It's just great and can even work in stall. Gets WoW and reliable recovery. All it really needs is Defog support which most teams have anyway. Doesn't even need set up moves to hit like a nuke. Idk why it was even moved that low but it deserves to go up a rank or two. Then there's also the fact that it can be either X or Y.