Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[DoABarrelRoll]

0 SpA Blissey Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 72-86 (22.2 - 26.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Blissey Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 136-162 (40.7 - 48.5%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Blissey Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 94-112 (31.1 - 37%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Blissey Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 82-98 (24.6 - 29.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Blissey Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 94-112 (26.1 - 31.1%) -- 8.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yeah Blissey isn't very threatening with its special moves, outside of 4x effective moves they often barely beat out Seismic Toss and Blissey is simply set up bait for Mega Gyarados unless it has Toxic/T-Wave and BU Talonflame unless it has Toxic (which is harder to fit on if you run a special move because Seismic Toss is still pretty much mandatory).

Chansey outclasses Blissey, not in every single way, but in enough ways to make the latter a worse option in almost every situation.

But that's what I said: "Blissey can even afford to invest some EVs into Special Attack". She can even run a modest nature if she needs to. I personally ran a Blissey with enough SpA to beat Skarmory in two hits with Flamethrower, but even with Ice Beam/Thunderbolt, this Blissey can still achieve some good results:

132+ SpA Blissey Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 178-210 (53.2 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

132+ SpA Blissey Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 232-276 (65.9 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

132+ SpA Blissey Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 122-144 (40.3 - 47.6%) -- 48% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(Blissey wins if Latios has a Life Orb)

132+ SpA Blissey Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 264-312 (81.4 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(doesn't trigger Weakness Policy with SR up, something 0 SpA Blissey can't do)

132+ SpA Blissey Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 304-360 (84.9 - 100.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(Coinflip here, yes, but Blissey wins if Chomp has a LO)

132+ SpA Blissey Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 106-126 (31.9 - 37.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 3 layers of Spikes

132+ SpA Blissey Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 180-212 (60.4 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

But that's what I said: "Blissey can even afford to invest some EVs into Special Attack". She can even run a modest nature if she needs to. I personally ran a Blissey with enough SpA to beat Skarmory in two hits with Flamethrower, but even with Ice Beam/Thunderbolt, this Blissey can still achieve some good results:

132+ SpA Blissey Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 178-210 (53.2 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

132+ SpA Blissey Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 232-276 (65.9 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

132+ SpA Blissey Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 122-144 (40.3 - 47.6%) -- 48% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(Blissey wins if Latios has a Life Orb)

132+ SpA Blissey Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 264-312 (81.4 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(doesn't trigger Weakness Policy with SR up, something 0 SpA Blissey can't do)

132+ SpA Blissey Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 304-360 (84.9 - 100.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(Coinflip here, yes, but Blissey wins if Chomp has a LO)

132+ SpA Blissey Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 106-126 (31.9 - 37.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 3 layers of Spikes

132+ SpA Blissey Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 180-212 (60.4 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Yeah that's super gimp, you give up a ton of bulk and gain very little considering you can only viably run one of those moves anyway, if you want something bulky with some offensive prowess you're much better of just going for Clefable who has more or less the same movepool but a better typing, better abilities and much more offensive power.

 

[jbtc10]

Shedinja just called: he wants his D-rank back.

With Baton Pass being a threat that every team needs to account for in some way if they wish to be truly successful and able to handle everything the meta has to throw at it, Shedinja stands out as one of the better options for defensively based teams that require a dedicated counter. With an immunity to all of BP's common attacking moves in Stored Power, Hyper Voice, Scald and Thunderbolt, Shedinja can be a 1-man army that helps carries the entire team to victory.

The best part is that unlike many other proposed counters, Shedinja still has decent utility against an acceptable portion of the meta, being able to completely wall many meta threats (many of which also give defensive teams a headache) such as Keldeo, Landorus-I, Thundurus-I, Azumaril, Manaphy and Latios. It spreads burns with Will-O-Wisp, can keep up momentum and act as a great pivot with Baton Pass, and can dish out some surprisingly powerful blows coming from its 306 Atk stat (since it can always run Adamant).

Basically, it's actually impossible to think of a pokemon who is more deserving of the D-rank than Shedinja, who belongs in and even creates that category by its very definition. It has a one-of-a-kind niche that no other pokemon in the game can fulfill, and in the present moment, that niche is in fact quite valuable.

Shedinja back to D-rank (it's better than many C rank pokemon too, but all that matters is being back on the damn list).

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-112183105 (only replay I have of it for now, but it shows that even against a team with a ton of bad match-ups for it, it can always achieve something positive whether it be getting a KO, acting as a good pivot, or crippling 1 or more things with a burn to support the team)

 

[epicdrill]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-112183105 (only replay I have of it for now, but it shows that even against a team with a ton of bad match-ups for it, it can always achieve something positive whether it be getting a KO, acting as a good pivot, or crippling 1 or more things with a burn to support the team)

So, you are using a battle where your opponent had an ELECTIVIRE to support your position. I'm pretty sure most people here will (correctly) dismiss that battle based on the fact that your opponent was an idiot.

 

[escarlata]

I would like to clarify something about Chansey and Knock Off here. Even though losing Eviolite hurts for Chansey, not every team carries Eviolite. Besides, neither is going to switch into Knock Off users anyway. Even in such a case where both take a Knock Off, true that Chansey loses Eviolite, but Blissey loses more health in the process that it is often equally crippled as Chansey is without Eviolite.

4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 121-143 (18.8 - 22.2%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey: 234-276 (36.4 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 445-525 (69.3 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 165-195 (25.3 - 29.9%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 195-231 (29.9 - 35.4%) -- 26% chance to 3HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 408-481 (62.5 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Such a calculation is done with one of the weakest Knock Off from a common user hitting with Knock Off followed by a Super Effective coverage move, which means the Knock Off damage difference is minimized, while the coverage move difference is maximized (which is in Blissey's favor for the calculation). Even in such a case, it is clearly visible that Chansey takes 7.7% less damage from the Knock Off, and ~7-8% more from the specific coverage move. In the case of other common Knock Off users, the the difference in % damage taken from Knock Off will only diverge, whereas the difference in damage taken from the coverage move will converge, which means any stronger user of Knock Off deals less damage to Chansey over 2 turns as compared to Blissey.

In other words, the above paragraph means that even in the situation most favorable to Blissey in comparison to Chansey, Blissey still does not show a significant advantage is tanking the damage from the next hit. Basically, against every other common user of Knock Off, Chansey is strictly superior in taking the subsequent hit taking account the Knock Off damage.

At the end of the day, if Blissey/Chansey takes a Knock Off on the switch, it is theoretically more damaging to Blissey than Chansey. The only case Blissey is better than Chansey in taking a Knock Off is if it gets a clean switch in and heal off the Knock Off immediately as it is dealt, which tends not to happen since the blobs are made to switch into attacks, and not get a clean switch easily.


On the subject on being able to carry Leftovers, it is hardly considered an advantage since Chansey takes hits way better than Blissey to be able to disregard the recoveries:

252+ Atk Icicle Plate Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 127-150 (19.4 - 23%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Icicle Plate Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 93-109 (14.4 - 16.9%) -- possible 6HKO

252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 245-290 (38.1 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 335-395 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- approx. 98% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

From above calculations, we see that Leftovers only makes up for the loss in bulk when Blissey takes lower than 23% from a physical attack, which is rare, and at which point it hardly matters anyway because it has reliable recovery. At any level higher than 23% from a physical attack, Chansey's bulk is always superior to the 6% recovery. I doubt I even need to make a special bulk one because no one sane enough will use it on either of the 2 anyway. Even on stall teams with Hippowdon, the fact that top players rather run Sand Force Hippowdon + Chansey than Sand Stream Hippowdon + Blissey really show something about how useless the Leftovers heal is when compared to the increased bulk that Chansey has.

;tldr

• While Chansey is severely hurt by Knock Off, honestly Blissey isn't better
• While Chansey is unable to carry Leftovers, it takes less damage than Blissey even accounting in Leftovers (at least where having the recovery actually matters)
• The only noticeable merit of Blissey is the ability to run alternative attacks other than Seismis Toss, but it usually make them more trouble than they're worth the majority of the time. -> D-rank is suitable for Blissey

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who have a small niche in the current OU metagame, but have very noticable flaws that make them more trouble than they're worth the majority of the time.

 

[Gary]

Shedinja just called: he wants his D-rank back.

With Baton Pass being a threat that every team needs to account for in some way if they wish to be truly successful and able to handle everything the meta has to throw at it, Shedinja stands out as one of the better options for defensively based teams that require a dedicated counter. With an immunity to all of BP's common attacking moves in Stored Power, Hyper Voice, Scald and Thunderbolt, Shedinja can be a 1-man army that helps carries the entire team to victory.

The best part is that unlike many other proposed counters, Shedinja still has decent utility against an acceptable portion of the meta, being able to completely wall many meta threats (many of which also give defensive teams a headache) such as Keldeo, Landorus-I, Thundurus-I, Azumaril, Kyurem-B, Manaphy and Latios. It spreads burns with Will-O-Wisp, can keep up momentum and act as a great pivot with Baton Pass, and can dish out some surprisingly powerful blows coming from its 306 Atk stat (since it can always run Adamant).

Basically, it's actually impossible to think of a pokemon who is more deserving of the D-rank than Shedinja, who belongs in and even creates that category by its very definition. It has a one-of-a-kind niche that no other pokemon in the game can fulfill, and in the present moment, that niche is in fact quite valuable.

Shedinja back to D-rank (it's better than many C rank pokemon too, but all that matters is being back on the damn list).

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-112183105 (only replay I have of it for now, but it shows that even against a team with a ton of bad match-ups for it, it can always achieve something positive whether it be getting a KO, acting as a good pivot, or crippling 1 or more things with a burn to support the team)

While Shedinja doesn't give a shit about Baton Pass, it's pretty much completely worthless outside of them. The amount of support you need to use Shedinja is so ridiculous that using it is basically more of a chore to keep it alive then helping you out at all. D rank is for Pokemon with a very small niche that can work with the right support, but the amount of support it needs to even be useful in some minuscule way makes it even too much for a D rank Pokemon. For example, Exploud is D rank because it's terrible outside of Sticky Web teams, but in Sticky Web teams it can be a threat as long as you manage to keep it on the field. Empoleon has several key resistances and access to Defog/Stealth Rock. Nidoking is mostly outclassed by Landorus and suffers from slow Speed, but it's still not terrible at all.

Shedinja is the epitome of a terrible Pokemon in OU. You act like BP is the only playstyle you'll ever see in OU, when in fact that's not the case at all unless you get really unlucky and face Deniss a million times. Anyways, to even be slightly useful, Shedinja needs hazard control. Next it needs something that can keep Sand off the field, which can be pretty difficult considering that Tyranitar and Hippo are everywhere and you would have to use it in conjunction with Politoed, Mega Charizard Y which adds more unnecessary SR weakness and an unreliable setter, shit Ninetales, or manual weather which is also really bad outside of rain offense. Next you'll need to keep Shedinja away from status at all costs, and with the amount of Pokemon that use Toxic and Will-O-Wisp in this tier, that's definitely not going to be an easy task. Finally, Shedinja is hit super effectively by a large majority of Pokemon in the OU metagame. It's weak to priority Brave Bird and Sucker Punch as well. Also, many of the Pokemon you said Shedinja walls, it actually doesn't. Keldeo carries HP Flying on pretty much all of its sets, as well as Thundurus in some cases. Azumarill carries Knock Off quite frequently. Kyurem-B has Teravolt, meaning that basically anything that Kyurem-B uses will beat it.

And the replay you posted does not convince me at all. You use Shedinja to wall a guy using Electivire, which would have proceeded to beat you regardless if you didn't get lucky with the crit. Next time wait to find a better replay before using it to support your already lacking evidence.

tl;dr Shedinja is so bad it's not worth using just to beat Baton Pass and loses to every other team archetype.
Probably still better than Durant.

 

[jbtc10]

So, you are using a battle where your opponent had an ELECTIVIRE to support your position. I'm pretty sure most people here will (correctly) dismiss that battle based on the fact that your opponent was an idiot.

That replay was just tacked on because it's the only saved replay I have of Shedinja in action, it wasn't meant to be deeply analysed or anything. The dude had one bad pokemon, big deal, the rest were all OU viable and the point anyway was to show that even with a lot of bad match-ups for Shedinja, it was still a useful pivot, since it can switch into a lot of expected moves (like the thunderbolt) which then basically forces the opponent to either switch if they don't have a move that can hit it (and then whatever comes in gets hit by WoW or an attacking move), and if they do, you can easily predict that and switch to another pokemon to take a resisted hit from that move, which saves HP since they now don't have to take a neutral STAB move while switching in, which can make a big difference. I didn't switch because I wanted to scout and my sash was still in tact so I didn't particularly care at that point, but I could have easily pivoted into something else if I needed to.

And @ Gary, some pokemon like Talonflame and Zard-Y are crippled pretty badly by SR, yet they are still worth using. Yes, they have a higher payoff against the majority of the meta than Shedinja, but that's not what's being debated here, we know that, and that's why they are ranked as A+ and S, while Shedinja is only being put forward to be D. All of the other D-rank pokemon aren't worth using either outside of dedicated teams or for very niche roles, and that's exactly what Shedinja is being used for, and its niche is a more relevant and flexible one than what those offer.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

And @ Gary, some pokemon like Talonflame and Zard-Y are crippled pretty badly by SR, yet they are still worth using.

They only lose half of their health (and are immune to Spikes.)

They do not instantly die.

 

[Salemance]

They only lose half of their health (and are immune to Spikes.)

They do not instantly die.

Or three highly spammable coverage moves (Fire, Dark, Ghost)

 

[Aragorn the King]

Or three highly spammable coverage moves (Fire, Dark, Ghost)

Not to mention this Gen's severe case of FlySpam.

If we make an E-Rank, which Salt the Flesh suggested and I backed up:

I agree. In my opinion, it should be something like

S Rank: Extremely powerful Pokemon with little risk factor in using. They can contribute to basically any team placed on, and will almost always be successful. They have immense niches that aren't done better by any other Pokemon. Ex. Aegislash

A Rank: Pokemon that lack the sheer unpredictability, power, and utility of S ranked Pokemon, but still have immense niches, and have little risk factor when used. They have competition for some of their niches, but are still important threats. Ex. Mawile

B Rank: Pokemon whose niches are partially eclipsed by other Pokemon, or Pokemon with a substantially larger risk factor than Pokemon in above ranks, but still have the ability to contribute to the metagame. They may also be hindered by certain low stats, but regardless they make a name for themselves. Ex. Sylveon

C Rank: Pokemon with niches in the metagame that are valuable to some teams. These Pokemon are not ones that fit on any team, but ones that either should be put on as a focus, with a large amount of support, or ones that's support only is necessary on a team by team basis. These can also Pokemon that have unique niches, but whose niches aren't important enough in the metagame. Ex. Omastar

D Rank: Pokemon that have one niche and one niche only. Everything else they can do can be done better by something else, and even their own niche is often not worth using or basing a team around. Support they provide is minimal, but they still can warrant use on some teams. Ex. Empoleon

(Proposed) E Rank: These Pokemon are entirely eclipsed by Pokemon in higher ranks. They contribute practically nothing original to the metagame, and a simple change to a different Pokemon will always be met with more success for the user. These Pokemon may have small positive aspects over their competition, such as +18 speed or +30 Special Attack, but, in the end, their potential niche is not important enough. Ex. Florges.

Shedinja would fit in perfectly here. Shedinja has a niche, but it isn't valuable at all. If it had less severe weaknesses, it could be good, but in the end, it's weak to 5 of the most common attacking types: Ghost, Dark, Flying, Fire, and Rock.

 

[Salemance]

Not to mention this Gen's severe case of FlySpam.

If we make an E-Rank, which Salt the Flesh suggested and I backed up:

Shedinja would fit in perfectly here. Shedinja has a niche, but it isn't valuable at all. If it had less severe weaknesses, it could be good, but in the end, it's weak to 5 of the most common attacking types: Ghost, Dark, Flying, Fire, and Rock.

Huh, to think I forgot that.

And E ranking would be filled way to fast. So many things that could go there...

 

[Gary]

That replay was just tacked on because it's the only saved replay I have of Shedinja in action, it wasn't meant to be deeply analysed or anything. The dude had one bad pokemon, big deal, the rest were all OU viable and the point anyway was to show that even with a lot of bad match-ups for Shedinja, it was still a useful pivot, since it can switch into a lot of expected moves (like the thunderbolt) which then basically forces the opponent to either switch if they don't have a move that can hit it (and then whatever comes in gets hit by WoW or an attacking move), and if they do, you can easily predict that and switch to another pokemon to take a resisted hit from that move, which saves HP since they now don't have to take a neutral STAB move while switching in, which can make a big difference. I didn't switch because I wanted to scout and my sash was still in tact so I didn't particularly care at that point, but I could have easily pivoted into something else if I needed to.

And @ Gary, some pokemon like Talonflame and Zard-Y are crippled pretty badly by SR, yet they are still worth using. Yes, they have a higher payoff against the majority of the meta than Shedinja, but that's not what's being debated here, we know that, and that's why they are ranked as A+ and S, while Shedinja is only being put forward to be D. All of the other D-rank pokemon aren't worth using either outside of dedicated teams or for very niche roles, and that's exactly what Shedinja is being used for, and its niche is a more relevant and flexible one than what those offer.

The fact that Shedinja is crippled by SR is not my only beef with it, and if you read my post you should realize that. I never once said that Shedinja was comparable to Zard Y and Talon just because it's weak to SR, I said that Shedinja requires so much support to fulfill one extremely specific role that the amount of support it requires to keep it alive makes is not worth using. Zard Y and Talon need support to succeed, but it's MUCH more mininal and their extreme usefulness makes the extra support all worthwhile. Shedinja requires an immense amount of support to stop a playstyle that isn't seen nearly as much as everything else, and it's basically a complete liability against any other playstyle, which pretty much cancels out any minute niche it could possibly have. That's my whole point. Just because something has an incredibly tiny niche, doesn't mean it should be ranked. If that were the case, a ton more Pokemon could be fit into that rank.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Aside from this Chansey vs Blissey stupid thing, I'd like to nominate jirachi for C- rank.

Yeah, I know how the mighty have fallen. However, I don't think Rachi is hopeless. Remember it still has an absolutely enormous movepool and can still run a few sets without being outclassed (Scarf, Wish Maker, paraflinch). It just became a version of Mew with Serene Grace and a Steel- typing. Although Jirachi gained two weaknesses, it also received a resist to a common type (Fairy). Speaking of fairy-types, Jirachi can be a great help to mega zard x or garchomp (in fact, most dragon-types), since it beats Azumarill with ThunderPunch (or flinches it to death with iron head) and usually wins against most fairies (only mawile can beat it, but even then it has to watch out for Fire Punch). The Wish Maker set has a few advantages over chansey: offensive presence, can flinchax in a pinch and can spread status more reliably imo. The paraflinch set is somewhat outclassed by Togekiss, but Rachi is not weak to SR, can still annoy opponents (but not make them punch their monitor or throwing their laptop, unless you're fighting an idiot) and can beat Ferrothorn and Skarmory with Fire Punch.
I don't think rachi is as bad as loltrevenant, lolexploud or lolweezing and I think C- is more appropriate for it.

On Shedinja: D rank is fine for it. It can wall an entire unprepared team, but 95% of the time it will barely do anything, since that pathetic one hp and weakness to stealth rock... yeah. Talonflame shits on it, Aegislash beats it, Mega Charizard X/Y use it as setup fodder, Pinsir is vulnerable to WoW but it can kill Shedinja with priority Quick Attack, etc etc etc.

 

[Durant]

Why should we add E rank. First of all if we are gonna add E rank what is gonna be in there, maybe Shedinja, Electavire, Pikachu and some other shit like Dusclops. The viability ranking is big enough as it is and almost all C and D rank pokemon are already really niche. Why not add Shedinja and his friend to D rank, i mean they are extremely niche and so are all the other D rank pokemon. You could add E rank for pokemon that are used but don't have any niche at all ( Electavire, Dusclops ) but leaving them off the viability ranking is almost the same as being E rank.

 

[Aragorn the King]

Why should we add E rank. First of all if we are gonna add E rank what is gonna be in there, maybe Shedinja, Electavire, Pikachu and some other shit like Dusclops. The viability ranking is big enough as it is and almost all C and D rank pokemon are already really niche. Why not add Shedinja and his friend to D rank, i mean they are extremely niche and so are all the other D rank pokemon. You could add E rank for pokemon that are used but don't have any niche at all ( Electavire, Dusclops ) but leaving them off the viability ranking is almost the same as being E rank.

I think it could be useful for telling new users never to use Pokemon that have a fair amount of usage. But yeah, as Salemance said, it would get overcrowded.

Aside from this Chansey vs Blissey stupid thing, I'd like to nominate jirachi for C- rank.

Yeah, I know how the mighty have fallen. However, I don't think Rachi is hopeless. Remember it still has an absolutely enormous movepool and can still run a few sets without being outclassed (Scarf, Wish Maker, paraflinch). It just became a version of Mew with Serene Grace and a Steel- typing. Although Jirachi gained two weaknesses, it also received a resist to a common type (Fairy). Speaking of fairy-types, Jirachi can be a great help to mega zard x or garchomp (in fact, most dragon-types), since it beats Azumarill with ThunderPunch (or flinches it to death with iron head) and usually wins against most fairies (only mawile can beat it, but even then it has to watch out for Fire Punch). The Wish Maker set has a few advantages over chansey: offensive presence, can flinchax in a pinch and can spread status more reliably imo. The paraflinch set is somewhat outclassed by Togekiss, but Rachi is not weak to SR, can still annoy opponents (but not make them punch their monitor or throwing their laptop, unless you're fighting an idiot) and can beat Ferrothorn and Skarmory with Fire Punch.
I don't think rachi is as bad as loltrevenant, lolexploud or lolweezing and I think C- is more appropriate for it.

On Shedinja: D rank is fine for it. It can wall an entire unprepared team, but 95% of the time it will barely do anything, since that pathetic one hp and weakness to stealth rock... yeah. Talonflame shits on it, Aegislash beats it, Mega Charizard X/Y use it as setup fodder, Pinsir is vulnerable to WoW but it can kill Shedinja with priority Quick Attack, etc etc etc.

* The Chansey vs. Blissey thing isn't stupid. Blissey deserves D rank under improved definitions, but whatever.
* What can Shedinja even do? It has no real niche, and isn't worth D rank, specific for Mons that have one thing they can do well.
* Actually, Jirachi can't move up; its analysis was rejected. It's stuck in D rank as long as it doesn't receive one, which is probably forever. Exploud on the other hand, is getting one, and as such is subject to moving up.

* So actually, alexwolf, in addition to Barbaracle, Seismitoed, and Gastrodon needing to be ranked, Kyurem and Azelf (unfortunately) need to go to D rank as well.

 

[W1wi]

I don't think we need an E rank, because it's OU Viablity Ranking, and Shedinja isn't viable at all.

 

[LordArrogantXVI]

I'd think Shedinja is a decent fit for D-Rank. I mean, it's horrible at living, but as others have said, it has its uses as a pivot, with WoW, and with a few offensive moves. I'd never bank on one to carry a team, but it can at least function somewhat in OU.

 

[W1wi]

I'd think Shedinja is a decent fit for D-Rank. I mean, it's horrible at living, but as others have said, it has its uses as a pivot, with WoW, and with a few offensive moves. I'd never bank on one to carry a team, but it can at least function somewhat in OU.

Except Ghost-type moves are really popular now, not to mention FlySpam.

 

[LordArrogantXVI]

Except Ghost-type moves are really popular now, not to mention FlySpam.

Very true. I never said it's a fantastic 'mon, just one that seems to have a niche. Granted, I'm speaking from secondhand experience going against them, as I've only ever used Shedinja in Nuzlocke runs myself, but they seem to have a few uses, and can hold on for an extra turn with Focus Sash. It's certainly playable, but there are far, far better.

 

[Gary]

Guys come on, there are so many Pokemon that could potentially have an incredibly small niche but that doesn't mean that MUST be ranked. You could say that Ambipom has a niche because of a very powerful Fake Out and messing with frail offensive teams. Plus it has U-turn, Taunt, high Speed, and okay attack. But no, Ambipom in practice is absolute shit in OU and should never be used on any serious team because it has way too many flaws to be useful. The same goes for Shedinja. It basically has like one super small niche that isn't even that useful, while its other flaws make it incredibly difficult to use on a team.

If we put Shedinja in D-rank because of an incredibly small niche, then we're basically saying that we can put a bunch of other incredibly niche shit in D rank because technically they have a niche, even if it's not even close to being worth it. That's not how D rank is. A Pokemon in D rank has lots of flaws but it still has a chance to be pretty decent if given the right support, for example Exploud, Nidoking, etc. Shedinja has so many more flaws compared to most of the Pokemon in D rank, and I would honestly applaud anyone for actually using Shedinja successfully against any other well built team that isn't using Baton Pass.

If I were you guys I'd drop this silly argument right now because there's absolutely no way alexwolf or I are going to rank it anywhere. Extremely small niche with a ton of flaws does not equal D rank.

 

[LordArrogantXVI]

Extremely small niche with a ton of flaws does not equal D rank.

I was under the (mistaken) impression that's exactly what it meant, going by the super short blurb there. A bit more reading into the thread would've helped me.
Also, new goal: somehow use a Shedinja to beat a good, non-Baton Pass team.

And this might be a stupid question, but why is Mega Garchomp lower than base Garchomp? o.O Blissey lower than Chansey I definitely get, but Garchomp seems weird to me. Is it Sand Force being less awesome than Rough Skin, or is there something else I'm missing?

 

[Aragorn the King]

I was under the (mistaken) impression that's exactly what it meant, going by the super short blurb there. A bit more reading into the thread would've helped me.
Also, new goal: somehow use a Shedinja to beat a good, non-Baton Pass team.

And this might be a stupid question, but why is Mega Garchomp lower than base Garchomp? o.O Blissey lower than Chansey I definitely get, but Garchomp seems weird to me. Is it Sand Force being less awesome than Rough Skin, or is there something else I'm missing?

Garchomp can run tanky sets, Scarf Sets, and fast SD sets. Mega Chomp can only wall break. It's a damn good wall breaker, but it lacks the versatility of normal Chomp, while also losing out on Speed, and costing a mega slot.

EDIT: Gary2346, would you agree to, on your thread, playing with the definitions to maybe something like I suggested? Right now, the definition of C is far less favorable than the definition of D. The vast majority of C ranked pokemon are better than D ranks, and as such don't even fit in with their definitions. I think:

S Rank: Extremely powerful Pokemon with little risk factor in using. They can contribute to basically any team placed on, and will almost always be successful. They have immense niches that aren't done better by any other Pokemon. Ex. Aegislash

A Rank: Pokemon that lack the sheer unpredictability, power, and utility of S ranked Pokemon, but still have immense niches, and have little risk factor when used. They have competition for some of their niches, but are still important threats. Ex. Mawile

B Rank: Pokemon whose niches are partially eclipsed by other Pokemon, or Pokemon with a substantially larger risk factor than Pokemon in above ranks, but still have the ability to contribute to the metagame. They may also be hindered by certain low stats, but regardless they make a name for themselves. Ex. Sylveon

C Rank: Pokemon with niches in the metagame that are valuable to some teams. These Pokemon are not ones that fit on any team, but ones that either should be put on as a focus, with a large amount of support, or ones that's support only is necessary on a team by team basis. These can also Pokemon that have unique niches, but whose niches aren't important enough in the metagame. Ex. Omastar

D Rank: Pokemon that have one niche and one niche only. Everything else they can do can be done better by something else, and even their own niche is often not worth using or basing a team around. Support they provide is minimal, but they still can warrant use on some teams. Ex. Empoleon

would be better all around definitions, as they (are grammatically correct, and) distinguish C ranks and D ranks in a more favorable way.

 

[LordArrogantXVI]

Garchomp can run tanky sets, Scarf Sets, and fast SD sets. Mega Chomp can only wall break. It's a damn good wall breaker, but it lacks the versatility of normal Chomp, while also losing out on Speed, and costing a mega slot.

That's something I hadn't considered. Mega Evolutions have taken some getting used to, since it means that 'mon effectively can't use an item. It just feels wrong seeing a mega version lower than a normal, I guess :P

Also, I'd cast my vote in favor updating the definitions of ranks. It'd eliminate a lot of confusion (such as mine about what D-rank meant and whether or not Shedinja qualified for it), plus it explains a bit better what each rank means. The current blurbs are rather... basic.

 

[Don Honchkrorleone]

I agree with Shedinja not being ranked at all. The support it needs is too ridiculous to justify its use on any serious team. You need heavy hazard/weather/opponent control, and 90% of the time you're just playing 5-6. Maybe even the 6th empty slot is better than Shedinja itself. I tried to use Shedinja seriously, and it has absolute no place on OU.

Extremely small niche with a ton of flaws does not equal D rank.

Except on Durant's case, which is C+ for some reason...

 

[hobreezy]

So why are Deoxys-D and Deoxys-S S-rank? In my experience, neither of the Pokemon have good longevity and are in no way a significant threat in OU.