Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

[Sucker Lunch]

If there's a wallbreaker which deserves S rank, it's MPinsir IMO. I think it's about time we move this terrifying beast up, since it has been dominating the metagame for quite a while now, and is just ridiculously potent against defensive teams, ans SD+Quick Attack lends it a lot of utility against offense. Its decent natural bulk means it can switch in on the vast majority of defensive Pokemon, and it also has an easy time switching into Ground and Fighting moves. Its SR weakeness is a problem, but it doesn't need to switch in too often, and even a Pinsir at 25% can put in a lot of work. Furthermore, what team doesn't have Defog or Spin support nowadays? MPinsir currently has no truly good defensive answers, since Pinsir is very very good at wearing said defensive answers down, and has developped a way with, when paired with Magnezone, dispose of Shed Shell Skarmory very reliably.

I wan't really confident before, but at this point in the metagame, I feel like we should move Mega-Pinsir to S rank

I'm still on the fence about moving Pinsir upwards. But I believe we should discuss whether or not to him to S-Rank. My main issue with Pinsir is that when I think of an S-Rank pokemon, I think of both high performance on top of high consistency. I feel as if Pinsir isn't consistent enough as either a wallbreaker (or sweeper) to warrant that Super Ranking. His sweeps are kept in check by the current scarfers of Lando-T, Excadrill, Tyranitar, Garchomp, Magnezone, and other offensive threats higher than base 105. Pinsir's wallbreaking abilities are kept in check because he has a 4x Stealth Rock weakness, and can't OHKO most walls without a boost. (We also know that walls will status Pinsir in return if they can't block him).

Well, here's my thing. If we move Pinsir up to S-rank for being able to tear down defensive threats, I think we should move Mega Heracross and Megacham to S-rank as well because they're much more reliable wallbreakers than Pinsir is. Pinsir dents walls, Heracross and Megacham bring the whole damn house down. For a hybrid sweeper/wallbreaker pokemon I believe ZardX is better due to burn immunity, recovery, and more setup opportunities due to that Fire-typing which scares the steels.

I have no qualms with moving Pinsir to S-rank, I'm just not convinced (yet).

I'm sorry Albacore ;_; fren.

 

[Celticpride]

My standard offensive 252 Attack/252 Speed Adamant Mega Aero does check the Diggersby-Mega Pinsir core well, if Diggersby isn't carrying Wild Charge. 252 Speed EVs also outspeeds even the fastest of Scarfed Magnezones by a big margin. So I would say it does well enough, even if I haven't played with the defensive sets.

 

[Synchronation]

That's why you either carry a Rapid Spinner or Defogger in battles cause you should always know that no doubt your opponent is going to be using hazards in a battle. That's just common. That's why you have counters for your opponent that Venomoth would be able to come in. Baton Pass isn't "worse" in general. Baton Pass is pretty good even when its limited. I already know the reasons why Venomoth is BL and why Gorebyss is NU for that matter.
I seem to remember that the majority of Shell Smash users are in the much lower tiers actually.

There always comes a right time to set up for either sweeping or passing. Setting up one Quiver does matter in some cases. Whether you have the most common threats against Venomoth the thing is you have the common threats against the opponent's pokemon as well.

You say its hard to set up opportunities as other Pokemon like Garchomp is able to. Pokemon do have an opportunity to set up no matter what whether its a +1 or more.
Here's a scenario, what if you used defog or rapid spin and got rid of the hazards as well as the user? Then still you'll be able to put Venomoth in safely. Every team will have a defogger or rapid spinner in most battles to be honest. If Scolipede can get out a SD along with a Speed Boost or 2 then it can use Baton Pass. Venomoth shouldn't be overlooked just because there are some common counters. Sleep Powder gives you valuable free turns as well as you can use Substitute as well for your sweeper while setting up. Also while the pokemon is asleep the chances of a pass are more higher than than before it was put to sleep so you can send out a pokemon that can threaten the opposing Pokemon.

I seem to remember that these low-tier Shell Smashers don't have Baton Pass (except Gorebyss). Most Shell Smashers aren't strong before boosting (or even after), that's why they are so low. Many Quiver Dancer like Vivillon are NU as well.

And here is were your argument is heavily flawed. THERE ARE NO REAL SETUP-OPPORTUNITIES. This is a Pokemon that relies on setting up, can't do it in front of actually any A-Rank Pokemon (bar Ferrothorn and Amoonguss) in a metagame which is offensive as hell in which sometimes 6 Pokemon in the opposing team are threatening. With a 70/60/75 bulk you can't switch into anything. Garchomp is bulky enough and can force switches to setup. Something Venomoth sadly just can't.
Scolipede has actual bulk and can pass speed without setting up (using Protect). Venomoth has to take a hit or has to pray that Sleep Powder doesn't miss. After activating the sleep clause it is always the former.

Last time responding to this, since we seem to not agree no matter what. If you show a good replay in which Venomoth puts in some work I might reconsider, but as it stands now it is a clear D-Rank.

 

[Worthlessnoob]

Mega-Heracross in S isn't too hard to believe. I consider it a lot better than Zard-Y considering it neither needs or wants pursuit support or defog support. Unlike Zard-Y, MegaCross has good physical bulk which is really important in this meta full of physical spam. It makes its wallbreaking job much easier. I'm not saying Zard is bad, but MegaCross seems much easier to use and gets so many free switch-ins against threats such as scarf Landorus-T. I know it has trouble against M-Pinsir which is getting better because of Mag, but Heracross has a better time against other rising threats such as Diggersby. You can run the usually subpar Bullet Seed too which allows it to beat Azumarill which I hear is being more commonly paired with Diggersby.

Heracross is also one of the biggest enemies to slower team considering it has a massive 185 base attack stat and 120 BP moves. I like Landorus-I a lot, but it can't hold a candle to the amazing stallbreaking power MegaCross has. It does require less support and cripples teams with Knock Off and has access to Stealth Rock as well, but MegaCross has literally zero common counters. I know it supposedly has a harder time against offense, but offense is hard pressed in to switch into it. Heracross has good bulk so it easily takes a hit and takes an opposing mon out itself. MegaCross is a supporter like that and I find it hard to compare it to Zard-Y, Mega Venusaur, or MegaGyara. Heracross may also be slow, but most people should have figure out by now that Jolly is better than Adamant.

I also find it having a much better time in the meta than Zard-X which sucks against dragon/physical spam considering so many mons outspeed it and can KO it with a super-effective hit. Zard-X really has to adapt in this meta. Though Heracross is supposedly not versatile, I say it might as well be considering no mons like to switch in on it because it can OHKO/2HKO most of the meta. M-Heracross is doing very well right now so I support Mega-Heracross for S-Rank

 

[Baharoth]

scarf tyranitar, scarf heatran, scarf garchomp, scarf terrakion, scarf kyurem-b, scarf magnezone, thundurus, and talonflame

The thing with all of these is that they cant switch into him more than once (or not at all) and they are scarfed so its a breeze for Pinsir to just switch out and come back in later. Ofc that requires rocks of the field but honestly if you cant keep rocks away you should just stop using him. From my experience its just so easy for him to get past most of his counters. Skarm can be screwed over with knock off, Rihyperior can only switch in once against CC the next time Pinsir can just set up on the switch and proceed to 2hko, Rotom-w is worn down with ease as well. Talonflame can be dealt with by running Feint over Quickattack allowing you to just ohko it after rocks (works well from my experience because everybody is like "I have my talonflame, you cant touch me").

Imo the only question regarding Pinsir that needs to be answered here is: "How much of a factor is support requirement for an S rank mon". When the meta was still young both Chary and Pinsir were S rank because they were, and still are, incredibly powerful and dangerous. Later they both got demoted because "mimimi they need SR support" and obviously they still need that, and they also want Pursuit/Zone support to work best. So if support reliance is stil a no go for S rank mons then Pinsir should stay A, if not both him and Zard Y should move up to S rank because when given the needed support they are far more dangerous and harder to handle than anything else in S rank.

 

[theV8man]

If it counts for anything, I personally don't think Pinsir is "reliant" on Magnezone. It's great to have but not reliant. If the enemy switches in Skarmory, you're most likely to have a Pokemon, such as Rotom-W, who can switch and take advantage of Skarm's passive nature to dent other members of the team and even get another free switch in with Pinsir, forcing the enemy to switch in Skarm again. My point is that if you can keep rocks off, you can switch in Pinsir more often, forcing your enemy to switch in Skarm more often, allowing you to annoy with other members of your team. Based off my experience with Pinsir, you don't need Magnezone.

 

[AM]

Ok so maybe about a month ago I would've agreed with M-Hera going to S and hell would have made an argument for it myself. So many spreads that are used by mons are catered to M-Heracross as the benchmark so that they don't get completely demolished. However I seriously can't now and it really has nothing do with its flaws which are generally mitigated with basic aspects of teambuilding. The issue with M-Heracross is the metagame within itself and how it's basically adapted in a matter of weeks and since its prominence to the point that it makes M-Hera not such a crazy threat to deal with. We are seeing these teams that basically just punish things like M-Hera through sheer power and granted M-Heracross is an amazing wallbreaker there's just one problem. How do you wallbreak something that will beat you first? M-Hera at times is so dependent on certain match ups that it can be a chore to actually support it and get it going. This was of a similar argument to why people wanted Lando-I to drop and inevitably the conclusion was reached for that general reason. The meta is generally just too fast paced for M-Hera to realistically be in S rank where the S rank mons there are much more centralizing forces from either an offensive or defensive standpoint or perhaps both in the case of something like Zard X and Azumarill. Trust me if M-Hera becomes S rank material in the future I'll definitely get on board with that.

As for M-Pinsir I'm going to second what Scarfed Raptor said.

I have no qualms with moving Pinsir to S-rank, I'm just not convinced (yet).

I don't really think it's an S rank mon if we consider all the flaws it has I think people are just hyped over its current centralization on like half or more of these stupidly overpowered offensive teams like the italian bunny team or w/e the hell people call it. I think the core of Mag+Pinsir+ground type within itself could be considered S rank material but individually the mons themselves don't really present that of S rank mons when they need these partners to actually function effectively. I think the cons so far have been pretty much stated by others and the pros are kind of blatantly obvious. If you don't know what M-Pinsir is capable of by now Idk what to tell you lol.

 

[Karxrida]

italian bunny team

Best name.

Espeon is shit and should not move up. Pretty much every single Hazards setter can beat it so it's useless at anti-hazard support and it's one of the easiest things to lure out ever.

Mega Hera is better than every other wallbreaker bar maybe Lando-I but I'm not convinced that it should be S due to how fast and offensive the meta is atm, meaning he's easy to check/revenge.

Venomoth should probably drop to D due to how hard it is to setup in this meta and the support it needs. Maybe Gorebyss too, but idc enough about it to argue a drop.

 

[Celticpride]

My general pro-con list on the Mega Wallbreakers (because there has been a lot of discussion on them recently):

Mega Heracross
Pros:

• Decent defensive typing, with good resistances
• Great three move coverage between Fighting, Bug and Rock
• Can break Subs with two of his moves
• Has 10 extra base speed on the turn before mega evoing
• Can power through some checks with Swords Dance
• Performs well against Sand, can stand up to Sand Rush Drill and TTar combo

Cons:

• Big Flying weakness, magnified by Talon and Mega Pinsir
• Base 75 speed isn't very impressive
• What it picks between SD, Sub, or a coverage moves controls what play style you do best against

Mega Medicham
Pros:

• Effective base attack of 217.5, before EVs (which also get doubled)
• Fighting/Psychic STAB combo only has issues with Psychic types and Doublade, just off typing alone
  
• Strong Fake Out gives it some utility against offensive teams
• Good coverage options in Bullet Punch, Ice Punch, Thunder Punch and Fire Punch
• Two good options for Fighting STAB which can make it more difficult to predict (HJK vs Drain Punch)

Cons:

• Like Hera, has issues with BirdSpam
• Very frail
• HJK missing can be an issue in some cases
• Fake Out, while useful, can also be a dead moveslot at times
• 100 base speed isn't that great

Mega Gardevoir
Pros:

• Hyper Voice can dent a lot of things that resist it, it's just that powerful
• Psyshock allows it to a lot hit special walls hard
• Focus Blast/HP Fire/HP Ground allows it to hit common switches (Ferro, Scizor, Heatran) hard if predicted correctly
• Taunt in the last slot allows it to get past Chansey
• WoW can cripple Scizor if used instead of Taunt
  
• Good special bulk allows it to take a hit or two from that side

Cons:

• Really frail on the physical side
• Steels in general give it trouble
• 100 base speed isn't what it used to be

Charizard-Y
Pros:

• Drought powers up Fire Blast, helps with the Water weakness
• Can reliably use Solarbeam, helps with bulky Water switch-ins to Fire Blast
• Focus Blast helps against Heatran, Tyranitar
• Can run Roost in the last slot for recovery
• Can get by Chansey with Flare Blitz, Dragon Pulse can be run to hit Lati@s, Dragonite and Char-X on the switch
• Opponent could guess it's Char-X allowing it to surprise

Cons:

• Big SR weakness
• Depending on the last slot, it's going to be walled by something fairly common
• It's on the timer when it comes out, to a degree
• If not running Dragon Pulse, it really likes Pursuit support for Lati@s
• 100 base speed isn't too special

Mega Pinsir
Pros:

• Return pairs well with both Close Combat and Earthquake, giving it good coverage
• Quick Attack at least gives it a chance against offense
• SD allows it to power through some checks
• Underrated defense, 120 defense is nothing to sneeze at
• 105 speed is pretty good
• Can sweep or wallbreak

Cons:

• Big SR weakness after Mega evolving
• Doesn't get the 105 speed until after Mega evolving
• It really needs to set-up to threaten a lot of common checks
• Has issues with bulky Electrics; Rotom-W, Zapdos and Thundy-I all can check

So that's some pros and cons to the Mega breakers. I think it hit on everything in some way or another (let me know if I missed something). They all have positive traits and drawbacks, and I don't believe that one outshines the others so much that one of them rises to the S-rank (maybe Mega Pinsir, but that also isn't a pure wallbreaker unlike the others). I think that they are all fine where they are right now.

 

[Kurona]

Snip

Didn't you forget Voir/Cham/Zardy's middling speed?

 

[Celticpride]

Didn't you forget Voir/Cham/Zardy's middling speed?

Thought I mentioned that. Added.

 

[koista12]

I love mega pinsir, he my favorite mega, but I don't think he's S rank. His most obvious flaw is hazards support, but he has several others.

His bulk is pretty decent, until you consider that horrible typing. Seriously, bug flying is a terrible defensive typing, weak to rock, ice, fire, electric and flying, all extremely common offensive types. His ground resist isn't that great considering most pokemon who carry ground type moves also have ways to hit ungrounded pokemon. His crappy HP and meh SpDef means he can't take strong neutral special attack, limiting him to switch in on, what? Grass types moves?

His speed is pretty good as well, but offense almost always has something faster. Scare Lando t is really popular, as is scarf zone, and those are just scarfers who beat him, I'm not even counting the musketeers/lati@s/greninja. Yes, I know that he has SD + quick attack, but what with that awful defensive typing and hazards weakness he can really only set up once.

Don't get me wrong, M pinsir is a fantastic pokemon, who can break balance and a large part of stall. His sheer power and that great offensive typing allow him to be a+ rank, but I don't think he can get to S with that defensive typing, and the support he needs.

 

[Srn]

The thing with all of these is that they cant switch into him more than once (or not at all) and they are scarfed so its a breeze for Pinsir to just switch out and come back in later. Ofc that requires rocks of the field but honestly if you cant keep rocks away you should just stop using him. From my experience its just so easy for him to get past most of his counters. Skarm can be screwed over with knock off, Rihyperior can only switch in once against CC the next time Pinsir can just set up on the switch and proceed to 2hko, Rotom-w is worn down with ease as well. Talonflame can be dealt with by running Feint over Quickattack allowing you to just ohko it after rocks (works well from my experience because everybody is like "I have my talonflame, you cant touch me").

Imo the only question regarding Pinsir that needs to be answered here is: "How much of a factor is support requirement for an S rank mon". When the meta was still young both Chary and Pinsir were S rank because they were, and still are, incredibly powerful and dangerous. Later they both got demoted because "mimimi they need SR support" and obviously they still need that, and they also want Pursuit/Zone support to work best. So if support reliance is stil a no go for S rank mons then Pinsir should stay A, if not both him and Zard Y should move up to S rank because when given the needed support they are far more dangerous and harder to handle than anything else in S rank.

Lemme ask you something

Have you ever seen a pinsir come in more than twice (used) on an HO team?
Have you ever seen a pinsir set up more than once in a single battle?

If you answered "No" to any of these questions, then it's not really "a breeze" for Pinsir to just switch in and out like mscizor or something z_z
The argument that pinsir can "wear down its counters" is a seriously shitty one because pinsir isn't switching in often with its 4x SR weakness and crappy defensive typing. You have to use its teammates to wear down its counters, its not some specs keldeo which can switch into many mons easily and just fire off scalds to weaken the azu.
Besides, when did I ever say that any of those pokemon were supposed to switch-in? They're revenge killers, they're not supposed to switch in,,,and some of them still CAN switch into its stabs with ease regardless lol.
And maero still stands as a complete and total counter to anything pinsir and its support can really do. Shud see more use *-*
As far as Feint goes, its total horseshit lmao. It's so insanely weak you don't even kill ninja at +2. Seriously when you have boosted priority and you need to wear down a greninja to sweep, there's a serious problem lmao.

The S rank standards have kinda changed to accommodate for the pokemon's ease to just be slapped on a team aka the amount of support they require. Something like azu clearly does not require any support on the team's part outside of basic synergy and is incredibly easy to slap onto a team, where as the moment you decide to use pinsir or zard y half your team has already been decided (mega mon, zone/tar, reliable hazard control)
This is definitely a huge factor for deciding whether or not something should be S and frankly Pinsir should never be S lol.

 

[Immortal]

Thought I mentioned that. Added.

you can also mention that cham and gard aren't even base 100 until the turn after the mega evolve but good list

 

[Flamebot]

Best name.

Espeon is shit and should not move up. Pretty much every single Hazards setter can beat it so it's useless at anti-hazard support and it's one of the easiest things to lure out ever.

Mega Hera is better than every other wallbreaker bar maybe Lando-I but I'm not convinced that it should be S due to how fast and offensive the meta is atm, meaning he's easy to check/revenge.

Venomoth should probably drop to D due to how hard it is to setup in this meta and the support it needs. Maybe Gorebyss too, but idc enough about it to argue a drop.

The Meta may be fast and all, but teams that run Mega Heracross should have something to handle the revenge killers. Sure 1v1 he is easy to check, but you have 5 other Pokemon.



But I agree he shouldnt be S rank.
Here's why I think that atleast


-Very weak to flying type, meaning you always need a Flyspam check
-As pointed out, very easy to revenge kill and seems to need you to Have a check to revenge killers(For example:Rotom for Greninja and Talonflame)
-It's slow. Sure, you can force switches and use good prediction to kill check on the switch, but well I'm tired and don't want to get into how this is bad.
As Albacore pointed out, it's also weak to the Mega Wall breaker
It also gets worn down easily and many more teams are preparing for it.


Yes, it's an amazing Pokemon and one of my favourite Megas, but I just don't see it as an S rank Pokemon



This is probably a bad post tho as I'm really tired.

 

[Gabidou99]

Didn't you forget Voir/Cham/Zardy's middling speed?

IMO 100 speed is decent, it outspeed Breloom, Dragonite, Gliscor, (Mega) Gyarados, Black Kyurem and tied with Zard X/Y, implying they are all unboosted.

 

[Baharoth]

Lemme ask you something

Have you ever seen a pinsir come in more than twice (used) on an HO team?
Have you ever seen a pinsir set up more than once in a single battle?

If you answered "No" to any of these questions, then it's not really "a breeze" for Pinsir to just switch in and out like mscizor or something z_z
The argument that pinsir can "wear down its counters" is a seriously shitty one because pinsir isn't switching in often with its 4x SR weakness and crappy defensive typing. You have to use its teammates to wear down its counters, its not some specs keldeo which can switch into many mons easily and just fire off scalds to weaken the azu.
Besides, when did I ever say that any of those pokemon were supposed to switch-in? They're revenge killers, they're not supposed to switch in,,,and some of them still CAN switch into its stabs with ease regardless lol.
And maero still stands as a complete and total counter to anything pinsir and its support can really do. Shud see more use *-*
As far as Feint goes, its total horseshit lmao. It's so insanely weak you don't even kill ninja at +2. Seriously when you have boosted priority and you need to wear down a greninja to sweep, there's a serious problem lmao.

The S rank standards have kinda changed to accommodate for the pokemon's ease to just be slapped on a team aka the amount of support they require. Something like azu clearly does not require any support on the team's part outside of basic synergy and is incredibly easy to slap onto a team, where as the moment you decide to use pinsir or zard y half your team has already been decided (mega mon, zone/tar, reliable hazard control)
This is definitely a huge factor for deciding whether or not something should be S and frankly Pinsir should never be S lol.

I cant realy answer question one to be honest, i certainly had alot of games where i brought Pinsir in multiple times but i dont know how many of those were against HO, i would guess there were cases where it happend but i am not sure.

Question 2 is a no for sure for a simple reason. You dont set up with pinsir unless your certain to be able to sweep afterwards. Most of the time when you bring him in you will just attack with it to either kill something or demolish the switch in. Its not like Pinsir needs to set up anyway he has the power of a wallbreaker and the speed of a sweeper, he is perfectly fine even unboosted.

And no it doesnt always need other mons to wear down its counters as it severely dents most of them with an unboosted attack, like Rotom-w or Lando-T for example. You dont even have to bring Pinsir in 5 or 6 times, twice is enough because both can only switch into him once. I am aware that the scarfers you mentioned are revengekillers my point is that PInsir has no reason to let himself get revengekilled. You come in, kill something with that ridiculous power and switch out when the revenger comes in. You can play Pinsir in the same way as Garde or Medicham if you want to, your not forced to set up and try to sweep no matter what every time you come in. And you can come in by using volt/turners like Zone for example, you can come in after something died or on predicted ground or fighting attacks or Knock offs.

Regarding Feint, its 10 base power less than Quick Attack, yeah sometimes you will miss that extra power but it will help you just as many times. I mean whats more useful, requiring some priordamage on Greninja (easy to get with LO, sand and rocks around) or beeing able to get past common checks like Talonflame and sometimes even Thundy (needs lots of prior damage so its not gonna happen all that often). Not to mention that your not reliant on speed ties against other Pinsirs. Beeing a non contact attack that breaks protect also has its merits sometimes (looking at you ferrothorn). I tried both and i prefer Feint but thats up to the player. Just dismissing it as horseshit without even trying it is stupid though.

 

[Kurona]

IMO 100 speed is decent, it outspeed Breloom, Dragonite, Gliscor, (Mega) Gyarados, Black Kyurem and tied with Zard X/Y, implying they are all unboosted.

Hence 'middling' - it's not awful by any standard, but you'll often find yourself wishing your base speed was at least 10 points higher.

 

[yoloburn]

100 speed tier is great for a wallbreaker. not good, not middling, but great. there are no walls or primarily defensive pokemon that outspeed you.

on the other hand, Heracross's speed is decent. while it outspeeds most walls, it can get speed creeped by stuff like Mew.

 

[alexwolf]

Toxicroak should rise to C+ rank, but let's take it one step at a time and go with C for now. It checks many dangerous Pokemon, such as CM Clefable, Keldeo, Terrakion, Mega Venusaur, Specs Kingdra, Bisharp, Specs Omastar, BD Azumarill, Crawdaunt, and Breloom, which is a pretty big and important list of Pokemon. Not only it checks extremely important Pokemon such as Mega Venusaur, Bisharp, Keldeo, and Clefable, it also gives to rain teams a very strong weapon against opposing rain teams, as most rain teams without Landorus-T struggle to deal with +2 Toxicroak and have their choiced Swift Swimmers handicapped. And we are talking about an offensive Pokemon, which is not easy at all to wall after an SD keep in mind, with only Hippowdon, Quagsire, and bulky Psychic-types being able to counter it. Checks such as Landorus-T and Gliscor can get fucked by the occasional Ice Punch, which can be used over Swords Dance, as Toxicroak still pack plenty of power thanks to Gunk Shot's great BP and the ability to run an Adamant nature.

Toxicroak is a great option on rain teams that performs really well in this metagame, against both offensive and defensive teams, and has multiple defensive uses and surprisingly good survivability between Drain Punch and Dry Skin for an offensive Pokemon, not to mention immunity to Scald and Toxic, and resistance to Stealth Rockm, which give Toxicroak a ton of switch in and set up chances against defensive Pokemon. Toxicroak has great coverage, power, priority, survivability, and sweeping potential with SD, making it a great option on any rain team, that needs little support outside of Politoed.

 

[Jaroda]

Mega Heracross stays A+ - Don't get me wrong, my favorite bug is a verifiable monster, but isn't S rank in my book. It's definitely the best wallbreaker but when I think of an S rank mon like Char X I see something that needs virtually no support outside of the initial Defog, having all the right stats, typing and movepool to handle essentially whatever it wants. Mega Heracross is reliable, but not to Char X's level. Its speed is mitigated somewhat by its great bulk and typing, as outside of Flying attacks or STAB SE Special attacks its so hard to OHKO, and even then it isn't guaranteed to die.

252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Extrasensory vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Mega Heracross: 230-272 (73.9 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Flamethrower vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Mega Heracross: 194-230 (62.3 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Mega Heracross: 211-250 (67.8 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Mega Heracross: 281-330 (90.3 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Mega Heracross: 206-246 (66.2 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Jirachi Zen Headbutt vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 194-230 (62.3 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Fire Punch vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 260-306 (83.6 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

Because of this and its SR resistance it can come in numerous times with Wish support. But if you don't have this then yes, he can be revenged easily by HO teams with little prior damage.

 

[Srn]

I cant realy answer question one to be honest, i certainly had alot of games where i brought Pinsir in multiple times but i dont know how many of those were against HO, i would guess there were cases where it happend but i am not sure.

Question 2 is a no for sure for a simple reason. You dont set up with pinsir unless your certain to be able to sweep afterwards. Most of the time when you bring him in you will just attack with it to either kill something or demolish the switch in. Its not like Pinsir needs to set up anyway he has the power of a wallbreaker and the speed of a sweeper, he is perfectly fine even unboosted.

And no it doesnt always need other mons to wear down its counters as it severely dents most of them with an unboosted attack, like Rotom-w or Lando-T for example. You dont even have to bring Pinsir in 5 or 6 times, twice is enough because both can only switch into him once. I am aware that the scarfers you mentioned are revengekillers my point is that PInsir has no reason to let himself get revengekilled. You come in, kill something with that ridiculous power and switch out when the revenger comes in. You can play Pinsir in the same way as Garde or Medicham if you want to, your not forced to set up and try to sweep no matter what every time you come in. And you can come in by using volt/turners like Zone for example, you can come in after something died or on predicted ground or fighting attacks or Knock offs.

Regarding Feint, its 10 base power less than Quick Attack, yeah sometimes you will miss that extra power but it will help you just as many times. I mean whats more useful, requiring some priordamage on Greninja (easy to get with LO, sand and rocks around) or beeing able to get past common checks like Talonflame and sometimes even Thundy (needs lots of prior damage so its not gonna happen all that often). Not to mention that your not reliant on speed ties against other Pinsirs. Beeing a non contact attack that breaks protect also has its merits sometimes (looking at you ferrothorn). I tried both and i prefer Feint but thats up to the player. Just dismissing it as horseshit without even trying it is stupid though.

See the thing is, it's all fine and dandy that you were able to weaken that rotom-w in order for you to sweep later. But then what? You're forced out. See where i'm going with this? Pinsir does not wear down its counters b/c while it may get a solid hit off on it, that doesn't matter if you need to sack a mon to bring it in just to "wear down" its counters. Bringing it in on rocks and sand with a shitty typing and shitty sdef mind you.
You may be weakening your checks power-wise, but that too is useless if you can't come in again to take advantage of what you did. And pinsir can't.
Besides, if i'm not even gonna set up 60% of the time i successfully even come in, i'm probably better off just using some mega wallbreaker considering i'm using a zone and hazard support just to make pinsir remotely useful.

btw i've used both feint and QA and i like being able to kill ninja and gengar and stuff consistently as opposed to beating talonflame after I boosted after talon comes in on rocks once in a blue moon where it's actually useful lol. W/e its preference, not too relevant.

 

[Alfalfa]

I have probably said this for like the one hundredth time, but Wobbuffet needs to move up; keeping it at C Rank is just complete ignorance how good of a win con this thing is against the offensive meta. It was only worth being as low as C Rank when Aegislash was everywhere, but now Aegis is banned, and now it is probably one of the most underrated Pokemon in the entire metagame. It does get worn down really easily, is susceptible to status, has no recovery, and is slow, but this thing has consistently been a win con for me. Wobb does not squander your momentum either if you play it correctly; if anything, access to Encore and Safeguard is going to give an offensive team a lot of free turns, and Wobbuffet's ability to punish offensive teams so well is such a great asset. All it needs is Healing Wish and offensive support, and you are good to go. I have nominated this thing for C+ Rank and it Alexwolf has not even nudged on it. Wobbuffet for C+ Rank.

One other thing: before you say that Wobbuffet is outclassed by Gothitelle, keep in mind that Gothitelle has a horrible match-up against offensive teams due to its lack of bulk and speed. Gothitelle is only good at removing walls, Wobb is good at providing free turns, revenge killing, trapping, how is Wobb even outclassed by Goth?

 

[kabbes]

I'll just say this: sometimes you judge something in any game or sport not by how much you like having it on your team but by how much you hate it being on the opponent's team. And by that measure, I find Wobbuffet very, very good indeed.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I'll just say this: sometimes you judge something in any game or sport not by how much you like having it on your team but by how much you hate it being on the opponent's team. And by that measure, I find Wobbuffet very, very good indeed.

Except, the support it can give your team, is insane! Need a safe status free switch into your DDancer? Encore + Taunt Safeguard (I'm an idiot), I gotcha. X 'mon giving the team a problem? I'll take it out, don't worry. It's just by far one of the best members of the team I'm currently using. It scares people out of revenge killing, it allows me to set up, it is just insane. Wobb is amazing. In my opinion, C is not where it should reside.