Could we spark some discussion on conkeldurr, tbh I believe it have gotten a chunk better after the ban of mawile and aegislash, I'm not saying it is back at A or anything, but I honestly feel that it deserves some discussion and maybe rank up a bit. I will not post all my thought on it, because we have enough to discuss ATM, but yeah... I nominate conkeldurr for pokemon to discuss n_n (I know you can't do that, whatever my post already made no sense)
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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That's true but when the metagame is over prepared for something then it's a a valid reason to move something down or not move up. Like how a lot of attackers carry a fighting move just to hit Tyranitar or HP Fire just to hit Ferrothorn it can be one of the reasons to move them down etc. I'm pretty sure I worded this poorly but I think you'll get what I mean lol.
Mega Venusaur basically holds Stall teams together; if Zard-X (one of the best sweepers) and Landorus (one of the best wallbreakers) can be in S rank then I honestly don't see why the best tank couldn't be S rank. It's not like Zard X and Landorus are without their flaws either, and as stated before Mega Venusaur is literally the only reason people use those coverage moves over would-be better options which shows how dominant Mega Venusaurs presence is atm. I also believe Mega Venusaur was S rank in the past iirc, so saying it's not S rank material in such a confident way is not giving it enough credit really. Yeah Sand makes it take residual damage and makes one of it's moves heal 25% less and pokemon like Mega Pinsir can OHKO it... In the same way I could say that Zard-X is weak to SR and gets checked by stuff like Landorus-T and Quagsire and say that it's not S material but quite frankly I'd be very wrong. Basically what I mean is these flaws are not nearly enough to rank Mega Venusaur any lower than it should be in my opinion. I would also say that checking Azumarill, Keldeo and Thundurus at the same time is quite a big deal but hey I could be wrong lol.
You can't really say that when many of high level stall teams don't even run Mega Venusaur, due to the fact that Amoonguss checks most of the things Mega Venusaur can whlie also not taking a mega slot. Making this a great opportunity to run another mega, usually Charizard X. I really haven't seen a whole lot of stall teams with Mega Venusaur for this reason. Mega Venusaur not only faces some common problems in the current meta, but lacks the ability to fit easily in a team, which is also another factor you must take into account. For these reasons, I think Mega Venusaur should not move to S rank.
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Yeah most of the time I'd rather just use Amoonguss which also has a 100% sleep inducing move and Leftovers/Black Sludge recovery as well as Regenerator to not rely on Synthesis in this sand infested metagame and then the fact that it lets me use another Mega. Of course Mega Venusaur has it's advantages like actually having offensive presence but that alone isn't enough to push it to S-rank imo.
I'm not going to advocate venu for s or anything, but why does everyone say it gets destroyed by sand. ttar and drill, the two mons that make the playstyle, are destroyed by venu, and they are often paired with water types such as azu or keldeo. Sure your recovery is cut in half but you can still do a number on sand offense.(oftentimes giga drain is all the recovery you will need)
Anyway, my thoughts on some of the other mons---
Anyway, my thoughts on some of the other mons---
Hawlucha: Stay C+
While Hawlucha is a good mon against offense in theory, it is too easily nullified by priority, especially from talonflame. Not to mention it is useless against stall and checked by too many mons such as mew, rotom-w, clefable, and the increasingly popular lando t.
Omastar: C+ ---> B-
This thing becomes a monster in rain, and is able to blast through most of it's checks given the right support. One rank below kingdra sounds right to me. Specs 2hkos mega venu in rain for crying out loud.
Empoleon: D ---> C-
Makes a nice ninja/azu check with access to defog and rocks. Definitely a viable mon.
Goodra: C ---> C+
Makes a good check for the powerful special attackers of the tier such as ninja, thundy, lando. Can dent a lot of mons with its good coverage.
Jirachi: C ---> C+
Counters gardevoir and checks a lot of threatening special attackers. Has a nice movepool to add to its unpredictability. It can also get past clef with iron head depending on investment.
Doublade: Stay C-
It counters heracross, but that's about it. It's pretty weak and really vulnerable on the special side. Can become set up fodder for mons such as gyara and char x while giving special attackers free kills.
Forretress: Stay Unranked
It has zero offensive presence and its incredibly vulnerable on the special side. Rocks and spikes + spin is cool I guess, but it lacks the longevity to actually utilize all those moves.
Froslass: D ---> C-
Works decently as a suicide lead, and it has a use over scoli in that it can block spins. endeavor is much more reliable than dbond though.
Smeargle: C+ ---> C(maybe further)
I really don't see why you would use this outside of baton pass(lol denisss). Shuckle is better as a sticky web user, and you can pick so many other rocks users. Having every move in the game is cool and all, but those base stats are just too low to merit using smeargle.(I could be missing some niche use for it but I can't think of one right now)
While Hawlucha is a good mon against offense in theory, it is too easily nullified by priority, especially from talonflame. Not to mention it is useless against stall and checked by too many mons such as mew, rotom-w, clefable, and the increasingly popular lando t.
Omastar: C+ ---> B-
This thing becomes a monster in rain, and is able to blast through most of it's checks given the right support. One rank below kingdra sounds right to me. Specs 2hkos mega venu in rain for crying out loud.
Empoleon: D ---> C-
Makes a nice ninja/azu check with access to defog and rocks. Definitely a viable mon.
Goodra: C ---> C+
Makes a good check for the powerful special attackers of the tier such as ninja, thundy, lando. Can dent a lot of mons with its good coverage.
Jirachi: C ---> C+
Counters gardevoir and checks a lot of threatening special attackers. Has a nice movepool to add to its unpredictability. It can also get past clef with iron head depending on investment.
Doublade: Stay C-
It counters heracross, but that's about it. It's pretty weak and really vulnerable on the special side. Can become set up fodder for mons such as gyara and char x while giving special attackers free kills.
Forretress: Stay Unranked
It has zero offensive presence and its incredibly vulnerable on the special side. Rocks and spikes + spin is cool I guess, but it lacks the longevity to actually utilize all those moves.
Froslass: D ---> C-
Works decently as a suicide lead, and it has a use over scoli in that it can block spins. endeavor is much more reliable than dbond though.
Smeargle: C+ ---> C(maybe further)
I really don't see why you would use this outside of baton pass(lol denisss). Shuckle is better as a sticky web user, and you can pick so many other rocks users. Having every move in the game is cool and all, but those base stats are just too low to merit using smeargle.(I could be missing some niche use for it but I can't think of one right now)
Mega Alakazam may deserve to go to A-, because i think it is the best revenge killer available in OU. No need to use weather, a Scarf, or a somewhat weak attacker to cover speedy threats, Mega Alakazam has them covered. What else can revenge kill almost every single offensive threat, including Swift Swim sweepers, Sand Rush Excadrill, Adamant Scarf Landorus-T, Scarf Heatran, Mega Manectric, +1 Gyarados, and +1 Dragonite? Not to mention that even without a boosting item, Timid Mega Alakazam has power equivalent to that of a Timid 123 SpA Pokemon with Life Orb. And on top of this, Mega Alakazam can take advantage of common Pokemon such as Landorus, Heatran (Taunt shuts down Earth Power-less Heatran), Clefable (Unaware ignores Calm Mind boosts and allows Mega Zam to 2HKO it) Thundurus (priority Taunt prevents priority Thunder Wave), and Greninja, to the point of making some of them a liability. Nothing can take on a Sheer Force or Adaptability Mega Alakazam except from Chansey, and even Chansey loses if Mega Alakazam has Taunt.
As long as you MEvolve Mega Alakazam early on the game, you have most speedy threats covered, except from Scarf Terrakion, Scarf Garchomp, Jolly Landorus-T, DD Mega Charizard X, and Scarf Keldeo, all easy Pokemon to take core of with great pivots such as Landorus-T and Rotom-W. Not only this, but Mega Alakazam is a terrific late-game sweeper and hole puncher against all kinds of teams. Hidden Power Ice, Hidden Power Fire, and Taunt are all excellent choices on the last slot that allow Mega Alakazam to get past most of its checks and counters, such as SpD Dragonite, SpD Scizor, and Chansey.
Finally, Mega Alakazam can OHKO a ton of offensive Pokemon, meaning that it can be a great Pokemon to use even in the early-game, unlike some other speedy threats such as Mega Aerodactyl and Mega Manectric, which need some prior damage to OHKO most Pokemon not weak to their STABs. Here are some calcs, excluding Psychic-weak Pokemon:
As long as you MEvolve Mega Alakazam early on the game, you have most speedy threats covered, except from Scarf Terrakion, Scarf Garchomp, Jolly Landorus-T, DD Mega Charizard X, and Scarf Keldeo, all easy Pokemon to take core of with great pivots such as Landorus-T and Rotom-W. Not only this, but Mega Alakazam is a terrific late-game sweeper and hole puncher against all kinds of teams. Hidden Power Ice, Hidden Power Fire, and Taunt are all excellent choices on the last slot that allow Mega Alakazam to get past most of its checks and counters, such as SpD Dragonite, SpD Scizor, and Chansey.
Finally, Mega Alakazam can OHKO a ton of offensive Pokemon, meaning that it can be a great Pokemon to use even in the early-game, unlike some other speedy threats such as Mega Aerodactyl and Mega Manectric, which need some prior damage to OHKO most Pokemon not weak to their STABs. Here are some calcs, excluding Psychic-weak Pokemon:
- 252 SpA Mega Alakazam Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 396-468 (124.1 - 146.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- 252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 222-262 (74.2 - 87.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
- 252 SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 464-548 (128.5 - 151.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- 252 SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0+ SpD Heatran: 284-336 (87.9 - 104%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
- 252 SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 260-308 (78.5 - 93%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (sure OHKO if Gyarados came in on its regular forme)
- 252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kabutops: 246-291 (94.2 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO (sure OHKO after 1 LO round)
- 252 SpA Mega Alakazam Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Garchomp: 420-496 (117.6 - 138.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- 252 SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 376-444 (110.2 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- 252 SpA Mega Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Medicham: 250-296 (95.7 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
after reading wcar's post i've kinda rethought my previous stance on venu's ranking. i agree with moving it to s.
amoonguss is blatantly worse than mega venu btw lol. it covers some of the same threats? but not as reliably or well, there's definitely threats is misses out on, and it provides no offensive pressure whatsoever, unlike venu. amoonguss is basically a poor man's mega venusaur that you really only run when you can't run mega venusaur, which is so much better.
i would say that there are definitely more high-level mega venu stall teams than high-level mega charizard x stall teams. this is mostly based off of anecdotal evidence and what i've seen players using, so i guess it's not concrete, but zard x stall is certainly less common. and yes, it does easily fit onto teams...it covers so many big threats, which wcar has detailed, and hits hella hard for something that bulky. sure it requires additional support to cover threats to it, but so does every pokemon. mega venusaur is more of the support though, a glue for teams, and requires significantly less support than even, say, mega charizard x or landorus, both of which are s rank. there are points against moving mega venu to s but none of these make sense.
sand is not 'really good' against mega venu. mega venu beats many of the main threats on sand 1v1 (tyranitar, excadrill, azumarill, mega gyarados, clefable, and ferrothorn for some examples), and sand isn't up all the time. ttar or hippo isn't exactly jumping to switch in when venu easily 2hkoes with giga drain, plus giga drain often provides a lot of recovery, and it's not like synthesis does absolutely nothing in the sand. sure flying mons hurt venu but none of them are switch-ins, venu nukes the birds with its stab sludge bomb and can just switch out to a teammate which can handle these birds. plus, it's not like current s mons don't have issue with these prominent playstyles, eg zard x is raped by sand, keldeo hates birds, thundurus hates sand espec drill. as for your examples of psychic/flying moves that are run, first of all hp flying keldeo is significantly less common than icy wind and for good reason though i guess it's an option. your other mons are valid examples but basically the entire list of mons that carry psychic/flying moves for mega venusaur.
amoonguss is blatantly worse than mega venu btw lol. it covers some of the same threats? but not as reliably or well, there's definitely threats is misses out on, and it provides no offensive pressure whatsoever, unlike venu. amoonguss is basically a poor man's mega venusaur that you really only run when you can't run mega venusaur, which is so much better.
Lots of Pokemon carrying coverage for Mega Venusaur is a good reason not to move it up. I understand the thought process behind opponents to this idea; it's clearly a very influential Pokemon if things are running coverage solely to hit it. But being influential doesn't equate viability. Before its nerfs, people began to prepare for Baton Pass with moves and even Pokemon whose main purpose was to prevent the team from being demolished by it. Some stall teams were using the legendary Haze Quagsire, a pretty laughable set outside of dealing with Baton Pass, for that one reason. But people preparing for it didn't make the playstyle more viable; it just showed how big of an influence it had over the ladder metagame.
That same line of thinking can be applied here. Sure, Mega Venusaur is a scary Pokemon, but people going out of their way to prepare for it makes it less viable and not more.
That same line of thinking can be applied here. Sure, Mega Venusaur is a scary Pokemon, but people going out of their way to prepare for it makes it less viable and not more.
Recovery being cut in half and taking constant passive damage is why Mega Venusaur struggles against sand teams. It doesn't necessary "get destroyed by sand," in that it can handle a lot of Pokemon that are common in that archetype. But it still isn't very good against it because it becomes a lot easier to wear it down, especially because it doesn't have Leftovers to make up for sand damage.
Jacks0n
formerly grassycow
XY OU Ranking Tier List
(In alphabetical order)
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.
Azumarill - Azumarill is annoying for lucha, but a +2 sky attack / acrobatics KO's after rocks and a tiny bit of prior damage
Charizard (Mega-X) - Charizard x is also annoying for lucha, but as with azumarill, a +2 sky attack / acrobatics KO's after a bit of prior damage
Keldeo - Keldeo is set up bait when locked into secret sword, otherwise destroyed by a +2 (or not +2) sky attack/ acrobatics
Landorus - Same boat as azumarill and charizard x
Thundurus - This is the most annoying poke for lucha in OU, but sub sitrus can beat it at +2 when thund has prior damage.
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.
A+ Rank
Charizard (Mega-Y) - +2 Sky attack KO's
Clefable - Unuware clef is a pain in the arse
Excadrill - with a little hp invesment it can tank any hit, get to +2 and destroy, or destroy even withought +2
Ferrothorn - +2 high jump kick KO's
Greninja - +2 high jump kick or +2 acrobatics KO's, HJK KO's withought +2 as well.
Gyarados (Mega) - High jump kick at +2 KO's
Heatran - High Jump kick at +2 KO's
Heracross (Mega) - Can tank anyone hit and set up, or can KO with acro/sky attack
Landorus-T - If lando t doesnt carry stone edge, it is actually set up bait for sub sitrus
Latias - +2 Acro/Sky attack KO's with tiny bit of prior damage
Latios - +2 Acro/Sky attack KO's with tiny bit of prior damage
Pinsir (Mega) - QA is annoying, but Lucha outspeeds and KO's
Talonflame - Sub sitrus beats this if behind a sub, but otherwise loses
Terrakion - I ev my lucha to survive any unboosted attack, then able to set up and KO, or KO anyway
Venusaur (Mega) - Can set up and KO
A Rank
Bisharp - HJK KO's at +2 or not
Dragonite - +2 sky attack/acro KO's with multiscale broken
Garchomp - Can set up on choice locked EQ, and KO with acro/ Sky attack
Gardevoir (Mega) - Sky attack KO's
Gengar - Gengar is annoying, But +2 sky attack/acro KO's
Gliscor - Sub sitrus uses this as the biggest set up bait
Mamoswine - +2 HJK or not +2 KO's but is still annoyed
Medicham (Mega) - Acro/Sky attack says hello
Mew - Sub sitrus sets up on knock off + wisp set
Rotom-W - +2 HJK KO's with rocks and prior damage
Scizor (Mega) - +2 sky attack / HJK KO's after rocks and prior damage
Tyranitar - Uses as set up bair, HJK ko's even unboosted
Tyranitar (Mega) - Uses as set up bait, HJK ko's even unboosted
A- Rank
Amoonguss - Sub sitrus uses this as set up bait
Breloom - If something else is asleep it set up on this, otherwise KO's with sky attack/ acro
Chansey - Set up bait +2 HJK KO's
Diggersby - HJK KO's, too powerful to set up on tho
Gyarados - +1 Sky attack KO's after prior damage
Hippowdon - If lacking whirlwind sub sitrus sets up on this
Kyurem-B - +2 HJK KO's
Mandibuzz - +2 sky attack / HJK KO's after rocks and prior damage
Skarmory - Annoying, but +2/+3 2okho's after rocks and prior daamge
Slowbro - Same with skarm except uses Flying Stab
(In alphabetical order)
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.
A+ Rank
Heracross (Mega) - Can tank anyone hit and set up, or can KO with acro/sky attack
Landorus-T - If lando t doesnt carry stone edge, it is actually set up bait for sub sitrus
Latias - +2 Acro/Sky attack KO's with tiny bit of prior damage
Latios - +2 Acro/Sky attack KO's with tiny bit of prior damage
Venusaur (Mega) - Can set up and KOA Rank
Garchomp - Can set up on choice locked EQ, and KO with acro/ Sky attack
Gardevoir (Mega) - Sky attack KO's
Gliscor - Sub sitrus uses this as the biggest set up bait
Mamoswine - +2 HJK or not +2 KO's but is still annoyed
Medicham (Mega) - Acro/Sky attack says hello
Mew - Sub sitrus sets up on knock off + wisp set
Tyranitar - Uses as set up bair, HJK ko's even unboosted
Tyranitar (Mega) - Uses as set up bait, HJK ko's even unboostedA- Rank
Breloom - If something else is asleep it set up on this, otherwise KO's with sky attack/ acro
Chansey - Set up bait +2 HJK KO's
Diggersby - HJK KO's, too powerful to set up on tho
Gyarados - +1 Sky attack KO's after prior damage
Hippowdon - If lacking whirlwind sub sitrus sets up on this
Kyurem-B - +2 HJK KO's
Mandibuzz - +2 sky attack / HJK KO's after rocks and prior damage
Lucha can set up on a lot of pokemon, and once it has, its simply destroys offence at +2 speed and attack.
Luchas ability to destroy offensive teams allows it to be a real threat, and with two extremely viable sets to run, sub sitrus and power herb sky attack, it is capable of destroying weakened teams, and although it has flaws, its pros are enough to make it B-.
The reason why I think M-Alakazam should stay in B+ is due to this quote but in a more broad sense.
I disagree with moving M-Venu to S for all the reasons mentioned already. I understand we're a bit more lenient on what defines an S rank but that's not really a green light to just promote stuff that is generally considered a great A+ ranked mon.
That bold, reliance, can be the issue sometimes. Trace is a good ability that checks a lot of the stuff you mentioned alexwolf, but one of the main issues why I see M-Alakazam not being A- material is the fact that Trace can be dependent on the matchup within itself. Don't get me wrong, M-Alakazam I think is really great. However, when you factor in how it absolutely hates a priority infested meta game, forces you to find opportunities to for Trace since it can't really switch into a lot of stuff consistently, I feel like those flaws are apparent enough for it to stay in B+. I haven't seen an excellent replay of the rumored future sight set so maybe that would sway my opinion but as of right now I think B+ is where it stands.
I disagree with moving M-Venu to S for all the reasons mentioned already. I understand we're a bit more lenient on what defines an S rank but that's not really a green light to just promote stuff that is generally considered a great A+ ranked mon.
yeah I think Conk has gotten much better recently, while mawille was in the tier conk was just asking for it to come in and set up a SD or sub while you had to switch out but I have found it pretty effective recently. Assault vest gives it solid all around bulk and it has access to mach punch to patch up its low speed. It does well against some top threats these days as well. First off, it is handy against sand offense since it destroys t tar and beats excadrill as well. It does over half to ferrothorn with drain punch and can also easily take an extrasensory from greninja and OHKO back with knock off or take out a slightly injured greninja with mach punch. What is nice is that it also has access to knock off which is great for predicted switches. Finally ice punch rounds out its coverage letting it hit dragons and landorus t. I think Conkeldurr is a solid pokemon all around. It has good bulk that lets it survive a hit from just about anything. Although it doesn't use the most powerful of moves, they have great coverage and are backed by really high attack. Finally guts is a great ability that lets you absorb status (none of which really bother conk) and cranks ups your attack when you do so. I think this guy could rise to B or even B+ now
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venusaur for s is fucking crazy
it is inconsistent, and when the opponent has even one or 2 things that can switching and force it out it becomes much less useful
it is completely useless vs stall and struggles vs any team with a heatran
it can't wall any of the biggest threats besides Keld and azu, being unable to switch into zards/gyara/lando/gard/hera/medi/latis/some thund
it is very predictable, with the changes to its spread not being that important, and maybe one move (hpfire/ leechseed/ sleep powder or whatever)
it can't punish switching as well as most big threats due to lack of power
it is very vulnerable to burn/ residual, which is gonna happen to it a lot switching into scalds and rotom
i personally would say a, but a+ is fine just because it handles shit that gives offense trouble well (loom, azu Keld)
o and its recovery has 8 pp and is unreliable yum
it is inconsistent, and when the opponent has even one or 2 things that can switching and force it out it becomes much less useful
it is completely useless vs stall and struggles vs any team with a heatran
it can't wall any of the biggest threats besides Keld and azu, being unable to switch into zards/gyara/lando/gard/hera/medi/latis/some thund
it is very predictable, with the changes to its spread not being that important, and maybe one move (hpfire/ leechseed/ sleep powder or whatever)
it can't punish switching as well as most big threats due to lack of power
it is very vulnerable to burn/ residual, which is gonna happen to it a lot switching into scalds and rotom
i personally would say a, but a+ is fine just because it handles shit that gives offense trouble well (loom, azu Keld)
o and its recovery has 8 pp and is unreliable yum
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S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.
I'm not sure whether Lando has low risk high reward. While it seems he's are great wallbreaker S rank pokes normally can do a variety of roles effectively. Gliscor and Lando-T were only brought up because you mentioned typing. I was not saying both are wallbreakers especially Gliscor who is a wall/toxic staller. Lando-T is versitile and can do many roles well. I'm not saying T should be S i'm just saying Lando-I seems like something that should drop down to A+. Keldeo with specs is a great wallbreaker
easily dealing with most common stall mons. It's true it is walled by things that resist it's dual STAB due to it's fairly pathetic movepool but most stall teams can be broken open by keldeo normally after mega venu dies. Remember a stall team can be felled by taking out one important mon.
I agree that Conk needs to rise, probably just to B. I dont think it ever should have dropped as low as it did to begin with because its always been fucking annoying and hard to kill but it certainly got a lot better eith the banning of Mega Mawile. Also just a minor nitpick if Greninja goes for Extrasensory it becomes a Psychic type so Conk would go for Knock Off instead.
Keldeo is not versatile either yet it is S-rank. Lando-I's rank wasn't something that needed discussion, but I want to say that dropping Lando-I is a silly idea. It's the most defining wall-breaker in the tier because people use mons like SpDef Gliscor mainly to counter it. There are almost zero switch-ins to Lando-I on stall and things like Celebi or Cresselia get crippled by a Knock Off.
You can compare it to Mega-Heracross as a Wallbreaker who also has nearly no switch-ins and essentially no counters, but Lando-I doesn't take up a Mega Slot. M-Heracross is usually worth the Mega Slot, but that's not a point to be ignored. Lando-I is also a great rocks setter because of how many switches it forces and can run Rock Polish to threaten offensive teams.
I find it hilarious how this thing was UU at one point in the beginning of XY when Lando-T was still OU. If any team has any trouble with stall whatsoever, you can just slap Lando-I on it without having to worry about replacing your Mega (unlike Medi, Gardy and Heracross) Keldeo doesn't have nearly the amount of Wallbreaking resources Lando has, such as neither choice-lock nor Life Orb recoil and Knock Off.
You should probably test this mon before you suggest it to drop. I'm not saying it will never drop cause I don't make the changes, but the work Lando-I puts against slower teams is great and I find it hard to believe anyone can find a team that doesn't appreciate any of the benefits of using Landorus.
This isn't relevant, though I want to say that all of those players who complain about stall do it because they use Lando-T over Lando-I. Smh.
Landorus should stay S
Priority and lack of switch-in chances are problems for other offensive Pokemon in OU too, such as Greninja and Gengar, but i don't see this holding them back from being great OU Pokemon. Almost every single offensive Pokemon has troubles against some priority users, and thankfully you can switch out from them after you have successfully done your job, which is to revenge kill in Mega Zam's case, which is made even easier by the fact that Mega Zam hits really fucking hard compared to other revenge killers, so you can't just switch to a resist of its STAB, and is also not locked to a single move, like scarfers are.AM145 said:
And Trace doesn't make Mega Zam unreliable at all. Mega Zam gets in with pivot support or after something dies, like all frail offensive mons, and if the opponent happens to have Heatran then good for you, one more switch-in chance. Or if the opponent has Landorus and you happen to get Sheer Force then great, but you are not going to include Sheer Force's power into your calculations when considering Mega Zam for your team. You will consider Trace only for its 100% reliable uses, such as revenge killing weather sweepers that rely on speed boosting abilities. In all other cases, Trace is just a sweet bonus.
Also, i think the nomination of Mega Venusaur to S rank is ridiculous, people have already explained why, but maybe i will add something too after i get some sleep.
Just gonna repost my thoughts on mega zam here...
Also Hp ice really isn't relevant imho, i'd rather just weaken my targets a bit and hit em with psychic. Ultimately, your attacks are psychic and focus blast being mandatory, and shadow ball (which I recommend) to hit mew and lati@s (mostly just mew fuck mew) or hp fire to hit zor and ferro, mostly just zor.
Hp ice is just a tad too specialized meh. Yeah relying on focus blast a lot is also annoying, and not being able to switch-in to anything and not having any priority hurts too.
Also all good mega zam are modest, I definitely want the power over outspeeding some weird af things like modest scarftran or adamant scarflando-t. Like i understand the power is nice, but lets be honest I think the original goal of scarf grounds was to 1) revenge char-x and 2) have something fast not fucked by thundy. I think we're forgetting the first point a little with the rise of sand rush exca, but ultimately you want to be able to revenge char-x, thus they should run speed boosting natures, thus mega zam is not gonna outspeed them even with timid, thus mega zam should run modest.
And Cm mega zam pls don't sub or taunt is leagues better.
regarding clefable anyways:
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 220-261 (55.8 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Not too concerned about it regardless
Regarding trace:
its not so much as being unreliable, b/c most of the time you'll find some use for it, but its just not nearly as consistent as some others, like landorus's sheer force, greninja's protean, char-x's tough claws, clefable's magic guard, etc, etc. Those ALWAYS are useful to the pokemon NO MATTER WHAT. Those are consistent and reliable abilities for those mons. The same certainly can't be said about mega zam.
You want Timid to be able to outspeed Keldeo, Terrakion, Latios, Latias, and Gengar before MEvolving, which is pretty fucking huge. Also, HP Ice is great to revenge kill +1 DDNite after SR, as well as Lando-T and Chomp, all common Pokemon on offensive teams.
I'm not arguing that hp ice is a bad choice, i'm just saying that there are more important things to kill/target as well as just maintain your neutral coverage in general. Also, as far as hp ice's use goes:
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 202-238 (62.5 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 244-288 (63.8 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Garchomp: 258-304 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You do upwards of 60%, easily 2hko'ing, any relevant mon you really need to hit with hp ice, and there are much more important targets for each of shadow ball, focus blast, and hp fire.
As far as the whole timid/modest shit goes, you can outspeed garchomp with modest which is pretty respectable, considering how the meta has definitely been leaning toward slower and more bulkier teams (aka balance). Besides, if you have the skill to get megazam in safely so consistently then I think mega evolving even against offense really isn't too much of a problem.
And obviously, the difference in power is extremely apparent, as seen with a relevant example in clefable. Modest is definitely better.
Conkeldurr really needs to go up with Mega Maw gone and Mew rising. I always thought it was silly to have Conk so low when it fucks up one of the most prevalent playstyles in the tier and is just a solid mon that can absorb status and not die in general because AV + Drain Punch is nice. B+ is a little high but B seems reasonable.
I think Lando-I isn't going down anytime soon (if anything, I find it more likely that it will be suspected after Thund). Stall prepares for it but you do realize that Lando can adapt too and give SpDef Gliscor the dick with HP Ice if it really wanted to and still dismantle the rest of the team, and it still makes balance cry while not being totally useless against offense because its defenses aren't bad and its speed is okay. Sure, T is rather appealing at the moment because sand, but the choice between the two comes down to what you need. As said, if you have problems with stall otherwise, I is the best option, while if you have problems with offense esp. sand offense, T might be the way to go.
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Smeargle can go to C- or D for all I care--it's just not good anymore. Baton Pass teams would often rather use Scolipede as their designated passer, and all that's left for it is unpredictable niche sets that I suppose you can customize for your team, but playing with Smeargle often feels like 5 vs 6 because its stats are so crappy. There's no way this thing is better than most of the other stuff in C rank (though admittedly some of them do need to move up).
I think Lando-I isn't going down anytime soon (if anything, I find it more likely that it will be suspected after Thund). Stall prepares for it but you do realize that Lando can adapt too and give SpDef Gliscor the dick with HP Ice if it really wanted to and still dismantle the rest of the team, and it still makes balance cry while not being totally useless against offense because its defenses aren't bad and its speed is okay. Sure, T is rather appealing at the moment because sand, but the choice between the two comes down to what you need. As said, if you have problems with stall otherwise, I is the best option, while if you have problems with offense esp. sand offense, T might be the way to go.
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Smeargle can go to C- or D for all I care--it's just not good anymore. Baton Pass teams would often rather use Scolipede as their designated passer, and all that's left for it is unpredictable niche sets that I suppose you can customize for your team, but playing with Smeargle often feels like 5 vs 6 because its stats are so crappy. There's no way this thing is better than most of the other stuff in C rank (though admittedly some of them do need to move up).
oops yeah you are right, or you can mach punch if greninja has a bit of damage on it
That's true, but from my experience running Protect is sufficient against these mons. Use protect on the mega evo turn, and you outspeed them afterwards without a problem. You do lose out on Substitute and Taunt, but depending on the team, I think those can be forgone relatively easily. The only thing I can think of that Modest MegaZam (with Protect) loses out on is Mega Manectric, which isn't that huge really.
Anyway, I'm not really sure of where it belongs. It has slight 4mss in that it's a tossup whether it uses Protect, Taunt, or Substitute. Additionally, it hates priority, has an over-reliance on inaccurate moves, can only afford to stay in on things it can OHKO, and is also reliant on the opponent's ability. On paper, it doesn't look that great, but in practice, it actually is a really effective Pokemon. It is able to revenge kill Pokemon reliant on speed-boosting abilities, which is fantastic, and it is also able to boost its power if it traces Sheer Force or Protean. There's no doubt that it's a superb revenge killer in OU, it's just that it needs to fit in with other A- Pokemon. Since it has such little competition for its role (normal zam is really bad), and can do its job of revenge killing top tier stuff (Kabutops, Excadrill, Kingdra, Omastar, Mega Tyranitar, Mega Gyarados) incredibly well (reliance on focus miss is it's only real flaw there), I don't think its addition to A- is absurd. In my opinion Mega Dactyl is in general a better pokemon (due to being the premier bird spam offensive check) than zam, and definitely shouldn't be a tier below it. Dactyl is definitely worth bringing to A- for its stallbreaking, revengekilling, and birdspam checking abilities, and I think Zam could be too solely for its revengekilling role.
It can also run some other coverage moves such as thunder punch and focus punch (though ice/drain/Mach punch + knock off is the best set tbh) it is also unique in its ability to not get walled by Mandy or skarm, As it can just spam drain punch and hit them super effectively when they roost. Ones again, thunder punch actually let's it beat keld, and slightly weakened azu. ^^
If you read some of my previous posts I was just asking what makes him S. I am going to use him in the future. I'm quite confused by some of your stated views in the above post.
People do not run specially defensive Gliscor just because of Lando-I. People run it to avoid OHKOs from HP ices, tank some special hits so they don't screw Gliscor completely over, live certain draco meteors and many other resons.
Keldeo is not versitile? lol what? It can run specs, scarf, calm mind which sometimes is run with substitute and expert belt (I have seen life orb, assault vest and even Coba berry which enables him to revenge kill things like talonflame and M-Pinsir). Then it can run things like HP flying, electric and ghost to cover things that wall him. The idea he's not versitile is laughable.
Mega Hera does have virtually no counters but many pokes can switch in if their switch in is not predicted such as talonflame or charizard. Lando-T is a decent soft counter/hard check for it though.
Someone please explain it to me in a way that isn't making some extremely untrue and very weird points.
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