Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

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Aragorn the King

Literally a duck
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So, much to my dismay, this bad boy
remains OU by usage, despite being largely outclassed as both a wall and cleric.

That said, it's not even ranked as far as viability is concerned. To be honest, I'm not sure where to put it, but I think C/C- might be a good start.
Vaporeon has no niche in OU, and therefore isn't ranked at all. Everything in D/C-/C has some niche, so putting Vaporeon there would be pretty misleading. Sure, it has Heal Bell over Alomomola, but the extra bulk + regenerator makes it worth it more often than not.

Also Vaporeon won't be OU in the next tier shift (in like two days).
 
Please don't get too angry but Mega Zam is definitely easier to revenge kill than Thundy. Even if we take out priority t-wave Thundy resists bullet punch, mach punch (and vacuum wave, but haven't seen that in OU since Mega Lucario) and even Talon's brave bird and Mega Pinsir's quick attack and Azu is taking a great risk trying to aqua jet that thing. Greninja I give you isn't as hard to revenge kill but it still better bulk than Mega Zam (although slightly) Mega Zam just resists mach punch and more importantly stands no chance against a sucker puncher.

You are right, I was grasping at straws here, but my point was to bring up that Mega Zam's attack stats aren't as great as they look like and bulky mons who can tank hits will most likely ohko it. At least Zam can hold focus sash *grumbles*.

Now that is true, teambuilding helps it a lot but it still needs fair share of support which I find unacceptable for a A- rank. I mean, is it really worth using Mega Alakazam when you can run Mega Venusaur instead of Amoonguss? The only real niche I see from Mega Zam is to trace a handsome ability and abuse it like against weather teams but that doesn't make it a A- rank material. And Thundy forces 50/50 against Zam since it can also just attack instead of risking being taunted. (I'm starting to think I am already gathering hundurus pro-ban arguments xD) Now, being able to outspeed dragon dancers at 1+ is really impressive, no denying that, sadly Focus Miss is a move who loves to be inaccurate at the most inappropriate moments and it is another annoying having to rely on poor accuracy for coverage so Mega Zam should not be the first choice when wanting to revenge kill them if it can't do it reliably.

Sorry, I should have been more clear but I was more thinking A rank as a whole as I think there should be a greater gap between the ranks than the ranks... within the ranks. And Talonflame can still predict the Tyranitar switching and just u-turn out and wear it down. Tyranitar can only check the Talonflame already locked into it's STAB attacks.
Substitute > Taunt on Mega Alakazam solves both of these problems. Sure, Thundurus and Bisharp could just attack you as you Substitute instead of T-Wave and Sucker Punch, however, your chances of winning are far greater. If you predict wrong and Substitute as they attack you only lose 25% of your health, while if they predict wrong they die. Also, Substituting before a T-Wave is infinitely better than Taunting before one.
 
I couldn't find any comments regarding Albacore's post on Magneton, and I definitely thought it warranted some discussion. Magnezone has risen tremendously as we all know, but Magneton has a niche as a faster scarfer than can still trap, at the cost of bulk. 358 is pretty bad which Magnezone hits IIRC, so Magneton can see use on teams that want a steel trapper than can also outspeed, say, Greninja.
 
So, much to my dismay, this bad boy
remains OU by usage, despite being largely outclassed as both a wall and cleric.

That said, it's not even ranked as far as viability is concerned. To be honest, I'm not sure where to put it, but I think C/C- might be a good start.
Vaporeon has no reason to be used in OU. It's completely and utterly outclassed at anything it tries to do, be it bulky special attacker, Wish passer or physical wall.

Now, being able to outspeed dragon dancers at 1+ is really impressive, no denying that, sadly Focus Miss is a move who loves to be inaccurate at the most inappropriate moments and it is another annoying having to rely on poor accuracy for coverage so Mega Zam should not be the first choice when wanting to revenge kill them if it can't do it reliably.
It's called Encore... Dragonite can be dangerous due to ExtremeSpeed, but Mega Gyara is screwed up by Encore unless Focus Shit misses 3 times in a row. After using it on the ladder, I am leaning towards B+ for Mega Zam, since you can't use another mega, it has severe 4MSS and is weak to priority.
 
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I don't have much to say re MAlakazam moving up besides the fact that I definitely think it should, but I think this replay might be helpful in showing off exactly what it can do (I know it's only ~1600 on the ladder, but it's not like either of us are terrible players, putting aside Arcanine and Protect Skarmory, so I think we can extrapolate this replay to high level play):

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-158332604

Highlights include:

Turn 21: Revenge killing a +1/+1 Dragonite
Turn 23: Abuse of Trace to make up for Focus Blast's inaccuracy
turn 27: Revenge killing Sand Rush Excadrill (yes I know I could have gone into Breloom and Mach Punched but I felt like I wanted to save this replay by that point so I wanted to show off MAlakazam)
 
Mega Zam is frail, yes, but at least he's extremely fast. Think of it when you compare it to Garde, who is powerful but tends to want to use Focus Blast, too, to deal with a few things, and can't take a physical hit to save its life, and is slower. Cham also wants more bulk and is also relatively slow and needs to gamble with HJK. Garde and Cham have similar flaws and that's not keeping them out of A, and while Zam is a bit less powerful, it is much faster, which is a huge thing. Just as the two megas' lack of speed is mitigated by dealing with bulkymons, Zam's lack of power is mitigated when you're dealing with fast and frail offensive mons. Prior damage may be needed but with Stealth Rock, switching in, Life Orb recoil, and sand damage, that's not too hard to get.

I don't think A- is that unreasonable, considering the work it puts in against weather teams + its high speed, power and nice coverage which allow it to function a fantastic late-game cleaner even without Trace, and the fact that it can put in work against more defensive playstyles if you opt for Taunt/Encore while still maintaining its effectiveness against offense.
 
Mega Alakazam is a Pokemon completely worthy of A- Rank. It has ridiculous power with a Base 175 SpA (even if you use Timid) and its speed is ridiculous. It has a powerful STAB move in Psychic and is amazingly complemented by Shadow Ball / Dazzling Gleam + Focus Blast coverage means that things like Heatran and Mandibuzz can't wall it. The last slot is free meaning it doesn't suffer from 4MSS allowing it to fit in in Hidden Power [Fire], Taunt, Future Sight, Calm Mind, Substitute, Encore, or lol Recover to help it deal with specific 'mons. It can sweep offensive teams without a crap ton of priority / AV Azumarill, and stall teams have trouble with Mega Alakazam, since Future Sight means that Chnasey can't switch in safely and Specially Defensive Gliscor gets Poison Heal traced meaning that Mega Alakazam gets HP back if it switches onto Toxic. It can then heal the Poison status by switching out of Chansey and Celebi which both have Natural Cure. Srn9130 Trace is not inconsistent. The amount of abilities it can abuse is ridiculous: Sand Rush, Swift Swim, Sheer Force (which can finish games off sometime actually), Prankster / Magic Bounce (so it can Taunt before Thunder Wave hits or it can make Espeon a liability), Protean, Speed Boost, Natural Cure, Regenerator, Magic Bounce, Magnet Pull (Magnezone shenanigans go away), Magic Guard, Flash Fire, Intimidate, Multiscale (RK DNite safely without being E-Speeded or if they switch you have Multiscale to tank priority or 2HKO something good), and like Thick Fat from like Mega Venusaur to take Aqua Jet easier. Saying that it ability holds it back is flawed. In a tier where abilities assess a majority of a Pokemon's viability, Trace being able to abuse these factors make it far from inconsistent. Even if this was the case and I can see arguments for this, Keldeo has a useless ability, but what is keeping it out of S Rank? Mega Alakazam has a bunch of tools to use. It is a solid A- candidate. there is really no need for a hotted debate about this. Please move on.

Since we will move Mega Alakazam up, why not Mega Aerodactyl to A- Rank? Its shiny sprite is even more terrifying in practice. The fact that it is being used by many good players (making a Finals appearance actually) and is increasing in usage itself should tell you its a good Pokemon. It still revenge kills things like Mega Tyranitar, but in addition, it beats Dragonite much more reliable with its Extremespeed resistance and completely makes the BirdSPAM playstyle into my Chicken Wings for dinner. Stone Edge hits really hard meaning that it can finish of switch ins with the right coverage move and it is hitting 80% of Stall team 'mons for SE damage meaning bulky Water-types and Chansey are the only Pokemon tanking it easily which means pretty much just Slowbro, Azumarill which can't switch on Stone Edge, Quagsire, and Alommomola. offensive teams are having huge issues with this thing because of it ridiculous coverage. Keldeo, Garchomp, Heatran, Terrakion, Dragonite, [Mega] Tyranitar, [Mega] (if mega weaken little) Gyarados, Landorus-I, Mega Charizard X + Y, Diggersby, Greninja, Kyurem-B, Latios, Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Breloom, and Mega Scizor on the switch are just some of the many Pokemon it can revenge kill. When using Offensive, dealing with Mega Aerodactyl is honestly just really hard as it take good prediction to beat it. Plus Mega Aero can always switch out to like Ferrothorn, wutev... if you bring in like Azumarill or Thundurus-I. It was C+ rank 2 months ago, but I think enough people have been starting to realize how good it is.
Omastar to B-
Doublade to Solid C
Rotom-H to C-
Jirachi to Solid B
Hawlucha to B-/B
Froslass to C-
Empoleon to C-
Haxorus to Solid C
Azelf to Solid B

Volcarona is Fine
 
I don't have much to say re MAlakazam moving up besides the fact that I definitely think it should, but I think this replay might be helpful in showing off exactly what it can do (I know it's only ~1600 on the ladder, but it's not like either of us are terrible players, putting aside Arcanine and Protect Skarmory, so I think we can extrapolate this replay to high level play):

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-158332604

Highlights include:

Turn 21: Revenge killing a +1/+1 Dragonite
Turn 23: Abuse of Trace to make up for Focus Blast's inaccuracy
turn 27: Revenge killing Sand Rush Excadrill (yes I know I could have gone into Breloom and Mach Punched but I felt like I wanted to save this replay by that point so I wanted to show off MAlakazam)
Also: taking only 38% from M-Ttar's Pursuit after tracing Dragonite's Multiscale. It would have survived even if it switched out!
 

Jacks0n

formerly grassycow
-> B+
Skarmory simply isn't as good right now. Magnezone + pinsir and/or landorus therian is a very popular core right now, and with skarmory supposed to be checking all these pokemon, it is losing effectiveness due to magnezone being everywhere. I would never use a skarmory withought shed shell right now, and then it really misses out on residual recovery or rocky helmet damage. Passive stall also isn't that great rn, and the rankings should reflect that.

-> B+

In the same boat as skarmory, Chansey is so passive, and with full stall really not that great anymore, and a plethora of threats breaking skarm/chansey, its effectiveness on defensive teams really isn't the same.
 

Anish

luckynbad
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
If we move mega zam up shouldnt mega man be included.It is tough to wall (except thick fat mamo and rotom-h).Mega man has intimidate and can form a dual intimidate voltturn core with slow lando t.It can also be used as a revenge killer and can even outspeed modest mega zam.Its major problem in not getting the ohko can be handle in balanced team where chip damage can OHKO.If not in a favorable matchup it can Volt switch out.
 

AM

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If we move mega zam up shouldnt mega man be included.It is tough to wall (except thick fat mamo and rotom-h).Mega man has intimidate and can form a dual intimidate voltturn core with slow lando t.It can also be used as a revenge killer and can even outspeed modest mega zam.Its major problem in not getting the ohko can be handle in balanced team where chip damage can OHKO.If not in a favorable matchup it can Volt switch out.
The difference between mega man and mega kazam is that mega man generally has a worse matchup against a lot of things like stall, sand offense, and some others compared to mega kazam, which is either mitigated through its stall breaking utility (Encore/Taunt), overall more power than mega man, and for the most part more useful with Trace. Also M-Manectric isn't that difficult to wall and while Mega Man shines against stuff like offense, Mega Kazam has the ability to shine on offense and much more. I don't really care at this point where M-Kazam is placed cause I still think it's a B+ mon but many disagree. However kind of wanted to point out that M-kazam has way more useful traits that can be catered for the team, where M-Manectric is forced into one specific role and as such needs to be built around some more support.

I support the drop of Chansey to B+ as well. I'm using it less and less on stall teams because it's so passive in such an offensive meta right now where stall needs a more physical, threatening presence than just sitting taking hits, healing off damage and walling your opponents to death by recovery alone. It either loses to way too many relevant threats off the bat or allows these threats free turns to do w/e the hell they please. B+ is more suitable.
 
Mega Aerodactyl (B+) -> A- | As with Mega Alakazam, Mega Aerodactyl is incredibly threatening against offensive teams. On Sand Offense, it can even use its Rock-type to its advantage by having its Special Defense boosted, giving it some much-needed extra resilience. 135 Attack may not seem like too much, but due to its magnificent 150 Speed, it can afford to run Adamant and reach a good Attack stat. In most cases, it's able to beat a ton of stuff with its massive coverage. Stone Edge is a great STAB aside from its accuracy, Aerial Ace is surprisingly useful to snipe Keldeo, Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham and Mega Venusaur, all of which are notable OU threats at the moment; Ice Fang's value lies in being able to strike Gliscor, Landorus-I and Landorus-T for x4 damage (SDef Gliscor is always OHKOed, while physically defensive is OHKOed after Rocks; Landorus-I is always OHKOed; Scarf Landorus-T is OHKOed after SR damage, even at -1); Fire Fang strikes Mega Scizor and the now-omnipresent Ferrothorn for some really high damage; lastly, Aqua Tail hits the many Rock- and Ground-types that try to stop Mega Aerodactyl, notably Terrakion, Tyranitar and Mega Tyranitar. It even gets a boosting move in Hone Claws, which is honestly useful considering it raises Attack to a CB level and makes all of its moves perfectly accurate. Mega Aerodactyl can even use a support set with the choice between SR, Defog, Taunt and Roost; what makes it unique is that it's a Defogger that can set its own Rocks up.
Unfortunately, this prehistoric beast is hampered by its common weaknesses to Rock-, Ice-, Electric-, Water- and Steel-type moves. It may sometimes find itself lacking in power without Hone Claws and it has to choose between its coverage, giving it a case of 4MSS. Without Fire Fang, it loses to Ferrothorn; without Ice Fang, it loses to Gliscor and the Landorus more often (though Aqua Tail still 2HKOes most of the time if you really can't afford to run Ice Fang); without Aerial Ace, it's stopped by most of the Fighting-types, notably Keldeo. While blindingly fast, it's susceptible to being revenge killed by Pokémon like Keldeo and Terrakion.
Nevertheless, Mega Aerodactyl's matchup against offense, paired with great power and fantastic coverage, as well as the ability to run a surprise support set make it a definite threat in the OU tier at the moment. Mega Aerodactyl deserves to go to A-.

For all reasons stated in above posts, I also support Chansey and Skarmory dropping to B+. They're still effective at what they do, but as has been stated, they're simply too passive for this offensively-oriented metagame.

Other moves I support:
Hawlucha from C+ to B
Omastar from C+ to B-
Doublade from C- to C
Haxorus from D to C


EDIT: I wanted to come back on this post.

Now that is true, teambuilding helps it a lot but it still needs fair share of support which I find unacceptable for a A- rank. I mean, is it really worth using Mega Alakazam when you can run Mega Venusaur instead of Amoonguss? The only real niche I see from Mega Zam is to trace a handsome ability and abuse it like against weather teams but that doesn't make it a A- rank material. And Thundy forces 50/50 against Zam since it can also just attack instead of risking being taunted. (I'm starting to think I am already gathering hundurus pro-ban arguments xD) Now, being able to outspeed dragon dancers at 1+ is really impressive, no denying that, sadly Focus Miss is a move who loves to be inaccurate at the most inappropriate moments and it is another annoying having to rely on poor accuracy for coverage so Mega Zam should not be the first choice when wanting to revenge kill them if it can't do it reliably.
So you're implying the necessity of support keeps a Pokémon out of even A-? This statement only holds true for S-Rank Pokémon, not A-Rank ones. Talonflame and Mega Charizard Y are in A+ and both are heavily reliant on hazard control to do their job effectively. Talonflame can only get two attacks off if it takes SR damage (I know, GW Roost, but still), because its STABs both induce recoil. Hell, even Mega Charizard X and Thundurus-I, two S-Rank Pokémon, are reliant on hazard control, since Thundurus-I can be OHKOed by some resisted hits after taking SR damage, such as CB Talonflame's Brave Bird. Yes, you are right on Mega Zam being easier to RK than Thundurus-I, but the latter can easily be revenged just by taking SR damage. Keldeo and Azumarill both require support to get past Mega Venusaur, making Talonflame or Mega Aerodactyl good teammates; despite this necessity for support, they're still S-Rank Pokémon. The Mega Wallbreakers are all susceptible to being revenged and need a revenger on their own team to function effectively, but Cham and Garde are still A and Hera is even A+.
Stating a Pokémon doesn't deserve to be in the A-Ranks just because they need support is a completely flawed argument, as even S-Rank Pokémon require a degree of support. It's a minimal amount of support, yes, but it's nonetheless necessary to make them work properly. Mega Alakazam doesn't even need much support; like Cham, Garde and Hera, it just needs to have priority users out of the field to function most effectively, but this is pretty easily solved.
Regarding your argument on using Mega Venusaur over Amoonguss and another Mega: a Mega Evolution is chosen depending on what the team requires, not the other way around. I know successful teams can be built around a Mega Evolution, but most of the time they're just really good additions to cores and teams and provide a function that another Mega Evolution can't fulfill. One would use Mega Manectric because it's a great scout and late-game cleaner. One would use Mega Alakazam for its amazing late-game cleaning potential and its ability to dick the opposition around by Tracing some really damn useful Abilities that can potentially be game-changing. One would use Mega Heracross if they need a great physical wallbreaker that deals with the bulkiest of opponents and doesn't give a fuck about Substitutes. You see? Each Mega Evolution has at least one function it can fulfill effectively and that is why they're chosen for a team.

I'm done talking about Mega Alakazam. It belongs in A-.
 
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Adamant Zoroark

catchy catchphrase
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So can we please stop referring to Mega Manectric as "mega man?" Sorry, but I can't imagine an electric dog as Mega Man at all.

Anyway, time for an actual contribution:

Please move Chansey down. That thing is just so passive it's not even funny, and it's already been stated many times. I'd personally push for B considering how bad it is to be passive in this meta, but B+ is fine.

Hawlucha should move up. Just, now that Aegislash is gone, this thing can get its job done much easier. STAB on Fighting and Flying is pretty nice, gets it pretty good coverage on its STABs alone. Just pair it up with the right partners (i.e. Mega Heracross as a wallbreaker, stuff to get past shit like Zapdos/Thundurus and the Flying Priority Duo) and have fun. Obviously it's not the best Pokemon (relatively low base Attack by OU standards, only one shot to make Unburden work, could really use Flying Gem,) but it's definitely better than shit like Lucario, who has trouble breaking through anything faster (aka just about the entire offensive OU metagame) that can take an Extreme Speed (a pretty sizable chunk of Pokemon) and has four moveslot syndrome, while Hawlucha has to worry about that much less thanks to Unburden, and if you want to argue that Hawlucha has 4MSS then please let me sit back while I laugh at you. The rankings should definitely reflect that Hawlucha is better than Lucario, so I support Hawlucha moving up to solid B rank. Keeping Hawlucha in the same rank as Smeargle is just not doing justice to its effectiveness.

But seriously Game Freak, gems in ORAS please I want my Flying Gem for Hawlucha
 
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So can we please stop referring to Mega Manectric as "mega man?" Sorry, but I can't imagine an electric dog as Mega Man at all.

Anyway, time for an actual contribution:

Please move Chansey down. That thing is just so passive it's not even funny, and it's already been stated many times. I'd personally push for B considering how bad it is to be passive in this meta, but B+ is fine.

Hawlucha should move up. Just, now that Aegislash is gone, this thing can get its job done much easier. STAB on Fighting and Flying is pretty nice, gets it pretty good coverage on its STABs alone. Just pair it up with the right partners (i.e. Mega Heracross as a wallbreaker, stuff to get past shit like Zapdos/Thundurus and the Flying Priority Duo) and have fun. Obviously it's not the best Pokemon (relatively low base Attack by OU standards, only one shot to make Unburden work, could really use Flying Gem,) but it's definitely better than shit like Lucario, who has trouble breaking through anything faster (aka just about the entire offensive OU metagame) that can take an Extreme Speed (a pretty sizable chunk of Pokemon) and has four moveslot syndrome, while Hawlucha has to worry about that much less thanks to Unburden, and if you want to argue that Hawlucha has 4MSS then please let me sit back while I laugh at you. The rankings should definitely reflect that Hawlucha is better than Lucario, so I support Hawlucha moving up to solid B rank. Keeping Hawlucha in the same rank as Smeargle is just not doing justice to its effectiveness.

But seriously Game Freak, gems in ORAS please I want my Flying Gem for Hawlucha
Youre overhyping Haw a bit. Sure, its a hell of a lot better without aegi but honestly, it is so damn reliant on team matchups to do anything. Should the opponent have M-Pinsir, Talon, Thund, ect, Hawlucha has a hard time doing anything. Sure its pretty good in late game sweeps but thats about it. You also heavily underestimating Lucario a lot, it is honestly quite even between the two. +2 Adamant Extremespeed detroys late game, KOing every relevant priority user and OHKOing slightly weakened mons, not to mention how well it does v. Stall, OHKOing Skarm after rocks and destroying Unaware Clefable with Iron tail. it doesnt really have 4mss at all, it doesnt miss specific moves, its really just personal preference on what sort of teams you want to beat more.
 
I think we should move Alomomola up to A-. As far I am concerned, this pokemon should be OU. I've been using it as a bulky pivot on bulky offense and balance teams, and it puts in a lot of work. First and foremost, it just switches into Keldeo. Keldeo is so good, that almost nothing does that right now. Even the Lati twins have issues switching into this monster, and Alomomola just does it. It also can't be pursuit trapped, which is an issue lots of other Keldeo switch ins have. Next up is what this pokemon actually does. Alomomola has regenerator and wish, meaning it's stupidly hard to kill AND it heals the rest of it's team. Icing on the cake is that it passes obnoxiously bulky wishes to its team, healing mons like Tyranitar or Thundurus to fight a lot longer. If you use the right set (36/252+) it also makes for a dandy switch in to Charizard-X. You can even come in on a dragon dance, and with careful protecting Alomomola can survive 2 dragon claws from 252 Atk Adamant. From there Alomomola can wish on its third turn out, and protect again to really frustrate the opponent. With toxic damage racking up from Alomomola's first turn out, Charizard will succumb rather quickly. Toxic + Protect is actually a rather infuriating combination, and it can wear down bulky waters like Rotom-W with ease. If Rotom-W comes in on a toxic, it pretty much ends up statused and is forced to take two turns of Toxic damage before big luvdisc switches out and abuses regenerator. Scald is great for burning pokemon immune to toxic- Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Scizor, and Mega Venusaur.

Here is a list of pokemon Alomomola switches in on:
Azumarill (non Belly Drum, CB play rough caps out at 55%,switch out to a resist afterwards)
Charizard-Mega-X (not SD outrage)
Keldeo
Excadrill
Greninja (not HP grass, but that's what protect is for)
Gyarados-Mega
Landorus-T
Talonflame (not Taunt sets)
Terrakion (+2 LO CC can OHKO)
Bisharp
Dragonite (mostly SpD, CB outrage and lum berries are annoying)
Garchomp
Mamoswine
Scizor-Mega
Tyranitar
Diggersby (+2 LO return does about 80%)
Gyarados (Not sub variants)
Mandibuzz
Skarmory
Aerodactyl-Mega
Kabutops
Starmie (No Tbolt)
Victini (CB bolt strike ~70%)

(I stopped at B+ viability)

I acknowledge that Alomomola is pretty passive and really crippled by Knock Off and Toxic, but look at all these mons it comes in on! I think A- for sure, maybe even A.
 

Srn

Water (Spirytus - 96%)
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I think we should move Alomomola up to A-. As far I am concerned, this pokemon should be OU. I've been using it as a bulky pivot on bulky offense and balance teams, and it puts in a lot of work. First and foremost, it just switches into Keldeo. Keldeo is so good, that almost nothing does that right now. Even the Lati twins have issues switching into this monster, and Alomomola just does it. It also can't be pursuit trapped, which is an issue lots of other Keldeo switch ins have. Next up is what this pokemon actually does. Alomomola has regenerator and wish, meaning it's stupidly hard to kill AND it heals the rest of it's team. Icing on the cake is that it passes obnoxiously bulky wishes to its team, healing mons like Tyranitar or Thundurus to fight a lot longer. If you use the right set (36/252+) it also makes for a dandy switch in to Charizard-X. You can even come in on a dragon dance, and with careful protecting Alomomola can survive 2 dragon claws from 252 Atk Adamant. From there Alomomola can wish on its third turn out, and protect again to really frustrate the opponent. With toxic damage racking up from Alomomola's first turn out, Charizard will succumb rather quickly. Toxic + Protect is actually a rather infuriating combination, and it can wear down bulky waters like Rotom-W with ease. If Rotom-W comes in on a toxic, it pretty much ends up statused and is forced to take two turns of Toxic damage before big luvdisc switches out and abuses regenerator. Scald is great for burning pokemon immune to toxic- Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Scizor, and Mega Venusaur.

Here is a list of pokemon Alomomola switches in on:
Azumarill (non Belly Drum, CB play rough caps out at 55%,switch out to a resist afterwards)
Charizard-Mega-X (not SD outrage)
Keldeo
Excadrill
Greninja (not HP grass, but that's what protect is for)
Gyarados-Mega
Landorus-T
Talonflame (not Taunt sets)
Terrakion (+2 LO CC can OHKO)
Bisharp
Dragonite (mostly SpD, CB outrage and lum berries are annoying)
Garchomp
Mamoswine
Scizor-Mega
Tyranitar
Diggersby (+2 LO return does about 80%)
Gyarados (Not sub variants)
Mandibuzz
Skarmory
Aerodactyl-Mega
Kabutops
Starmie (No Tbolt)
Victini (CB bolt strike ~70%)

(I stopped at B+ viability)

I acknowledge that Alomomola is pretty passive and really crippled by Knock Off and Toxic, but look at all these mons it comes in on! I think A- for sure, maybe even A.
I'm against this nomination for a few reasons:
First off, this isn't really against alomomola, but you mentioned that there are almost no good switch-ins to keldeo? HELLO?
There's so many mons that switch into keldeo only fearing a 30% lucky n bad scald burn that its amazing how you came up with that statement in the first place. Like seriously:
Tenta
Starmie
Slowbro/King
Amoong
Mega Venu
Dnite (watch out for icy wind)
Gyara
Azu
lati@s (watch out for icy wind)
Celebi
Sdef Cresselia
And as you mentioned, alomomola

I have no idea where that statement rly came from zzz. Besides, alomo is one of the worse switch-ins to keldeo because it can't even stop SubCM

Second, Alomomola is ridiculously passive. All you need is taunt or sub and bam its just gift-wrapped set up fodder. Its incredibly passive. All you really need to even worry about if you're using taunt is a scald burn, and that's just relying on luck zzz. Almost anything that isn't weak to scald with sub or taunt can just set up freely and that's quite dangerous, especially when its supposed to be your answer to some mons like mega gyara.

Third, alomo does nothing else. It just passes wishes, and its not really too versatile. Sure, its good at what it does, but its not too difficult to stop or prevent it from doing its job, and it has zero offensive presence. It mainly relies on toxic for its damage and using some cool options like magic coat or mirror coat usually requires you to drop toxic or scald, both of which are vital.

Its good at what it does and its a good mon in general, but its too passive, too predictable, and too easy to stop. B+ plz
 
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I think we should move Alomomola up to A-. As far I am concerned, this pokemon should be OU. I've been using it as a bulky pivot on bulky offense and balance teams, and it puts in a lot of work. First and foremost, it just switches into Keldeo. Keldeo is so good, that almost nothing does that right now. Even the Lati twins have issues switching into this monster, and Alomomola just does it. It also can't be pursuit trapped, which is an issue lots of other Keldeo switch ins have. Next up is what this pokemon actually does. Alomomola has regenerator and wish, meaning it's stupidly hard to kill AND it heals the rest of it's team. Icing on the cake is that it passes obnoxiously bulky wishes to its team, healing mons like Tyranitar or Thundurus to fight a lot longer. If you use the right set (36/252+) it also makes for a dandy switch in to Charizard-X. You can even come in on a dragon dance, and with careful protecting Alomomola can survive 2 dragon claws from 252 Atk Adamant. From there Alomomola can wish on its third turn out, and protect again to really frustrate the opponent. With toxic damage racking up from Alomomola's first turn out, Charizard will succumb rather quickly. Toxic + Protect is actually a rather infuriating combination, and it can wear down bulky waters like Rotom-W with ease. If Rotom-W comes in on a toxic, it pretty much ends up statused and is forced to take two turns of Toxic damage before big luvdisc switches out and abuses regenerator. Scald is great for burning pokemon immune to toxic- Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Scizor, and Mega Venusaur.

Here is a list of pokemon Alomomola switches in on:
Azumarill (non Belly Drum, CB play rough caps out at 55%,switch out to a resist afterwards)
Charizard-Mega-X (not SD outrage)
Keldeo
Excadrill
Greninja (not HP grass, but that's what protect is for)
Gyarados-Mega
Landorus-T
Talonflame (not Taunt sets)
Terrakion (+2 LO CC can OHKO)
Bisharp
Dragonite (mostly SpD, CB outrage and lum berries are annoying)
Garchomp
Mamoswine
Scizor-Mega
Tyranitar
Diggersby (+2 LO return does about 80%)
Gyarados (Not sub variants)
Mandibuzz
Skarmory
Aerodactyl-Mega
Kabutops
Starmie (No Tbolt)
Victini (CB bolt strike ~70%)

(I stopped at B+ viability)

I acknowledge that Alomomola is pretty passive and really crippled by Knock Off and Toxic, but look at all these mons it comes in on! I think A- for sure, maybe even A.
I think it should stay in B+ for the same reasons Chansey is moving down to B+. You put it really well: its passive. You can't be giving free switchins to a metric shitton of threats, and its fodder for anything with a sub. just refer to my chansey post for reasoning as to why it should stay B+.
edit: srn's a ninja
 
I am against alomoloa for A- rank by a longshot, it was better before than it is now, but regardless the fact that most of the mons u names that it switches into can set up on it, and it relies on scald burns to beat everything. Any even at all bulky sub user wrecks it, and if it just gets toxiced it becomes useless. It loses momentum with wishtect, and is the easiest mon to switch into in the tier, especially for shit like clefable. It doesn't wall enough shit to be worthy of a- rank considering those flaws.


Oh yeah and the biggest thing is that if i want to use alomamola i almost always have to use slowbro instead purely because of mega medicham which is so hard to wall that it gives slowbro that big of an edge
 

Adamant Zoroark

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Youre overhyping Haw a bit. Sure, its a hell of a lot better without aegi but honestly, it is so damn reliant on team matchups to do anything. Should the opponent have M-Pinsir, Talon, Thund, ect, Hawlucha has a hard time doing anything. Sure its pretty good in late game sweeps but thats about it. You also heavily underestimating Lucario a lot, it is honestly quite even between the two. +2 Adamant Extremespeed detroys late game, KOing every relevant priority user and OHKOing slightly weakened mons, not to mention how well it does v. Stall, OHKOing Skarm after rocks and destroying Unaware Clefable with Iron tail. it doesnt really have 4mss at all, it doesnt miss specific moves, its really just personal preference on what sort of teams you want to beat more.
Lucario wishes it could run Swords Dance, Close Combat, Extreme Speed, Iron Tail, AND Ice Punch, but can't. You lose out on Clefable and other Fairies without Iron Tail but lose out on Zapdos, Gliscor, and Landorus-T without Ice Punch. Isn't that the definition of 4MSS? All Landorus-T needs to do is scout for Ice Punch, and if it has Ice Punch, just use something else because I guarantee you have something else to muscle past Lucario.

As for your comments on Hawlucha, I could just as easily say Lucario is having a hard time doing anything should the opponent have Gengar, any Landorus-T running more Speed, Mega Venusaur, etc. But I'm not because you could make almost any Pokemon look bad by saying that. Is Lucario great against stall? Sure, I'll give you that. But I don't want something that's great against stall that is borderline useless against any well-built offensive team (at least Hawlucha has usable Speed) and considering offense is more common than stall... I think we know which one has more weight.
 

alexwolf

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Here are some more changes i talked about with some people that haven't been discussed here:

Mamoswine: A ---> A-
Scolipede: B+ ---> B
Moltres: D ---> Unranked

I will give you one day to talk about those three and say anything you might want for the rest of the changes, and i will post an update tomorrow.
 

Karxrida

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I don't think Scolipede should drop. It can pass defense/attack and speed boosts simultaneously, giving it a unique and useful niche that makes it pair well with the likes of Mega Gardevoir/Heracross by helping them against offense. The Speed Boost cleaner set is also pretty neat, being impossible to outspeed if given 2 turns and hits decently hard thanks to Life Orb and a strong STAB option in Megahorn.

Agreeing with kicking Moltres off. I literally have no idea what this thing is supposed to do outside of dealing with Mega Mawile (who's gone now) and Zard Y.
 
Scolipede. An offensive late game cleaner set in OU is indeed losing it's niche. Scolipede is falling in viability due to the increased popularity of it's counters. Pokemon like Lando-T, Ferrothorn, ect are all becoming more viable and popular and thus limit it's usefulness. As a cleaner, it sets itself apart with that ever growing speed, but I find it partially outclassed by Mega Zam and Mega Aero as cleaners. However, this does not necessarily mean Scolipede should drop. We've also seen an increase of popularity and viability of some very decent Scolipede partners, specificity Magnezone and Starmie, both of which check it's 2 most common/viable counters (respectively most of the time, but there IS Reflect Type Starmie) and or provide rocks removal. A metagame where stall is falling apart (considering it needs to run a plethera of mons to even begin to defend itself from the 3 breakers and Mew) also helps the little guy out , considering many previously common counters like Quagsire and even Skarm are dying out due to how passive they are. And anyway, it may be partially outclassed by the two mega cleaners, but the pair should move up anyway, and I'm fine with Scolipede staying 1 rank below them only. There's also quickpass, which is suppost good too, but I haven't used it at all, so no thoughts there. Scolipede should Stay in B+.

Moltres has lost it's niche as a Mega Mawile counter and far better Lando counters exist. The metagame no longer needs something that counters both, as one is banned. Unrank it.
 
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ScraftyIsTheBest

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Hmm.

Mamoswine is a pretty good anti-meta mon atm, its priority Ice Shard is very useful to revenge kill Landorus and Thundurus, and it hits hard and has a really good STAB combo to do work with. It is in general a pretty good mon, and is very anti-meta. That said, I can see why people want it to drop. It's rather slow, at only 80 Speed, so it's kind of easy to revenge kill, and its typing does give it some glaring weaknesses. Still, Mamoswine's qualities are definitely there, so A- is as low as it should be imo, but I'm kind of torn on whether it should drop.

As for Scolipede, well...idk lol. It has a cool LO cleaner set that cleans well with STAB Megahorn and Poison Jab, as well as EQ, and with Speed boost and a decent Attack stat, it does quite well at sweeping. It hits as hard as CB Talonflame, and Megahorn has decent coverage against Latis, Tyranitar, Celebi, Starmie, etc. It's not too easy to stop it from sweeping a weakened team, and Poison Jab is cool too for hitting Clef and Azumarill. Earthquake hits Heatran too. That set is still pretty solid at what it does so yeah. Its QuickPass set is also still okay, and passing to Mega Garde, Medi, or Heracross is actually fun and can be quite scary too, especially when those three are already menaces to begin with. That said, it is weak to Talon and Mega Pinsir (but those two own everything in the tier so whatever lol), and it is a little weak, so it's kind of powerless vs. defensive teams. It's still pretty solid though, and I personally think B+ is fine for it, though if it drops to B I guess I wouldn't be opposed. Probably not lower though lol.

Finally, I'm okay with seeing Moltres removed from the list, unless someone can somehow explain a legitimate advantage it has over other, better Fire-types in OU.

As for Alomomola, while I admit it's good, it's not A- good lol. It's a nice physical wall and is great at keeping its team (and itself) alive for a long, long time, but the fact that it has no offensive presence at all is what seals the deal for keeping it where it's at imo. It gets set up on a lot and relies on a 30% chance to cripple things to not be setup fodder. While it's pretty good at its job, it's not splashable on any team so it's not an A- threat imo. Definitely not comparable to the A- mons, especially if Chansey and Skarmory wind up falling to B+.

Omastar I'm not opposed to moving up, all you need to do with it is SPAM HYDRO PUMP and you can basically destroy everything lol. Scald/Surf/Hydro Pump/Ice Beam is actually quite fun on rain teams.

Hawlucha is actually pretty awesome and could move up to B. It's a really good cleaner and having really strong STABs and good coverage+Swords Dance+Unburden makes it quite a boss when used correctly.

Just a few thoughts.
 
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