Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

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Is this what this argument is about? Sylveon being compared to Unaware Clefable is just ridiculous. Sylveon and Clefable shouldn't even be compared in that category for cleric user. Clefable has way more utility over all and helps against
What is Clefable checking that Sylveon isnt as a cleric?
Set-Up Sweepers which means that it can potentially save a catastrophic Mega Gyarados sweep to a tank and kill scenario. And also overall, a way better 'mon? Yes, in the the support category it is, but there is pretty much only one Sylveon set that is good at the moment, the Choice Specs set. It is an absolute nuke. It is annoying to Sand Offense because if you lead with it, it is doing massive damage. Bar Excadrill (which is why Sylveon should played correctly v. that playstyle) on Sand Offense, Sylveon can tank and EQ to take out dangerous 'mons with prior damage like Landorus-T. It beats Mixed Smooth Rock Tar easily as it takes pitiful damage and can demolish it. However, one of the best draws is that it beats bulky Water-types easily which are probably the best defensive 'mons at the moment ranging from Alommomola to Slowbro. This is enough t warrant it a B- Rank. Keeping it with utter trash like Togekiss (which should prolly be B- because NP BP is so OP) and Infernape is an insult. Either you drop those two or move Sylveon up. I agree with the latter.

Seriously guys, stop talking about cleric Sylveon. It is making this dicussion utter trash and that's all I've been reading for the freakin' last two pages.
 
Is this what this argument is about? Sylveon being compared to Unaware Clefable is just ridiculous. Sylveon and Clefable shouldn't even be compared in that category for cleric user. Clefable has way more utility over all and helps against Set-Up Sweepers which means that it can potentially save a catastrophic Mega Gyarados sweep to a tank and kill scenario. And also overall, a way better 'mon? Yes, in the the support category it is, but there is pretty much only one Sylveon set that is good at the moment, the Choice Specs set. It is an absolute nuke. It is annoying to Sand Offense because if you lead with it, it is doing massive damage. Bar Excadrill (which is why Sylveon should played correctly v. that playstyle) on Sand Offense, Sylveon can tank and EQ to take out dangerous 'mons with prior damage like Landorus-T. It beats Mixed Smooth Rock Tar easily as it takes pitiful damage and can demolish it. However, one of the best draws is that it beats bulky Water-types easily which are probably the best defensive 'mons at the moment ranging from Alommomola to Slowbro. This is enough t warrant it a B- Rank. Keeping it with utter trash like Togekiss (which should prolly be B- because NP BP is so OP) and Infernape is an insult. Either you drop those two or move Sylveon up. I agree with the latter.

Seriously guys, stop talking about cleric Sylveon. It is making this dicussion utter trash and that's all I've been reading for the freakin' last two pages.

I agree on the set up sweepers bit, but just change the Mega Dos to something like Mega Tar (that mold breaker). Just a bit of an error is all :D
 
My gosh, there is 1 and only 1 set where Sylveon and Clefable compete and that set is:

Hypervoice/Moonblast
Healbell
Protect
Wish

Only here they are comparable at all. Yes Clefable outclasses Sylveon in everything else because Sylveon cant do anything else. Saying Clefable outclasses it as a rocksetter is like saying Keldeo outclasses Excadrill as a special attacker. If you want anything else but the set mentionend above you will go for Clefable, no questions asked.

However IF you want a Cleric/Wishpass set then Sylveon is not outclassed by any means, arguably its the other way around. When running this set Clef CANT run Flamethrower, it CANT run Calm Mind and it CANT run SR. That leaves it outclassed in both offense and defense with just two handy abilities to compensate for that. Yeah Clef is still a solid alternative to run a set like that but by no means it outclasses Sylveon in that role. There are 3 decent Clerics in the tier, all 3 have their perks but none of them outclasses the other. Chansey has the most bulk, Clef the most utility and Sylveon the best combination of bulk and power. Is that so hard to understand?
 
Honestly after switching into rocks, sylveon barely has more bulk than mg clefable. So saying cleric sylveon is bulkier clefable is not always true in practice. And with wild burns and toxics running around, if it gets burned/toxiced, each time sylveon comes in, it is forced to choose between using heal bell and wish, which gets it worn down extremely quickly even with its better bulk on paper. There are literally 1 reason to use cleric sylveon over cleric mg clefable: hyper voice

Hyper voice is less about it's power and more of its ability to hit through subs. This prevents stuff like sub gyara and sub keldeo from destroying entire stall teams. Certainly unaware clefable can do that too, but there are stuff like MGyara and niche shit like sub endeavor keldeo. The additional power is pretty handy, but really, it is mostly just for hitting through subs

I'm sure everyone get it that sylveon is not completely outclassed by clefable, that's why it is at C+ and not with Florges and friends. If anything allows it to rise to B-, it would probs be its Specs set, which has not impressed me yet, not when every slower team is prepared for Gardevoir.
 
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You guys are acting like Sylveon is being move up to A+ or something lol. It's a nomination up to B-, where there are decent mons there but not exactly the greatest of great. You should really take into consideration how they are viable or not within that rank as well, not just with Clefable.
 
Being outclassed in most cases by something else makes it unviable. It is like how the presence Thundurus-I can push Thund-T all the way down to C. It is bad? No it isn't. Can Thund-I perform everything better? No, Thund-T performs Choiced and Double Dance better, and is arguably superior in the rain. But is it outclassed? Generally but not always. Is it in C? Yes it is.

Sylveon is exactly like Thund-T in that sense. It is bad? No it isn't. Can Clefable perform everything better? No, Sylveon performs Specs better, and is arguably superior in less passively oriented Stall. But is it outclassed? Generally but not always. Should it remain in C/C+? Yes it should.

Yes I know using Thund-T has the opp cost of not using Thund-I. But honestly unless someone shows me a successful team featuring both Clefable and Sylveon, using Sylveon means no Clefable too.

Edit: @below: the fact that you basically implied that double dancers are meant to get up both boosts already shows lack of good understanding of how some things work, so removing that sentence on double dance makes your arguments seem more reliable.
 
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Imo its kinda stupid to compare pokemon as whole and then say A outclasses B. If comparisons are made they have be made between roles those 2 mons can fulfill and then it should be decided wheter or not one is outclassed or not. The ridiculous amount of roles that Clef can fullfill has nothing to do with how well it performs that specific role where it competes with Sylveon. The fact that Clef is the better pokemon overall is already reflected by its ranking, its A+ mostly for how versatile it is.

So there are only 3 important questions we have to ask ourselves when ranking Sylveon. Is it outclassed as a Cleric by Chansey/Clef? How well does it perform that role and how usefull is that role in the current meta.

The answer to question one is obviously "No" as all 3 of them have relevant perks over the other, its just a matter of preference. The second and third part are very subjective but from my experience it performs fairly well in that role and Cleric/Wishpassing is definetly a viable and important role to play in the meta. Unlike Double Dance Thundy T for example or Hail setter in case of Abomasnow. Yeah both mons have roles they can perform better than their competition or have no competition at all, but both roles arent worth the team slot and in case of Thundy T double dance, its not even good at using that set since something with basicly zero bulk will never find the time to get 2 boosts against any competent player.

I honestly dont care if it rises or not but stop that "Its outclassed by Clefable" crap, its just plain wrong.
 
The problem is, why would you use Choice Specs Sylveon when you have Mega Gardy? Sylveon doesn't hit THAT much harder, and being locked into Psyshock or Shadow Ball is an invitation for many things (Mega T-Tar, Mega Scizor, even Zard X/Azumarill) to come in and set up for fucking free. Sure, Gardy takes up the mega slot and she dies to any Bullet Punch or Brave Bird thrown at her, but she isn't locked into any move and can screw with physical attackers very easily (will-o-wisp) while hitting hard as hell. If you want to use another mega, you can use Specs Sylveon though.
 

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The only real perk that cleric Sylveon has over cleric Magic Guard Clefable is Hyper Voice, as Magic Guard more than compensates for Clefable's lower special bulk . This means that if Sylveon rises to B-, it will be because of its Specs set, so please focus discussion on this one.

Obviously the Specs set faces big competition by Mega Gardevoir, which is faster, has better coverage, and is not choice locked, but Sylveon does have its advantages, namely not occupying your Mega slot, having way more bulk (especially with HP investment, which allows Sylveon to check Pokemon that Mega Gardevoir can't, such as Greninja and Thundurus), hitting ~20% harder with Hyper Voice (Modest Sylveon vs Timid Mega Gardevoir), and being able to act as a slow pivot with Baton Pass.
 
The biggest concern on the Specs set is that it only really works against slower teams, or only as an element of surprise.Many slower teams are already rather prepared for Gardevoir for teambuilding so PixiVoice isn't really that threatening to them. Against any faster teams, it dies rather quickly when a lot investment goes into SAtk, considering it only has Crawdaunt-level of physical bulk. When checking special attackers, Specs Sylveon also gets worn down due to low investment, and lack of recovery. Said special attackers can also easily switch into the many Gardevoir checks to take on her Specs Hyper Voice. Checking Greninja and Thundurus is mostly really needed on HO, but Specs Sylv is not something that can fit well in HO. In short, Gardevoir's popularity which causes its checks to increase indirectly makes Specs Sylveon hard to put into good effect. Having said that, Specs variants is something I have faced various times, but never used, but due to aforesaid reasons, it is not really that impressive. But if someone who is experienced to using Specs Sylveon to good effect, feel free to disagree with this.
 
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The problem is, why would you use Choice Specs Sylveon when you have Mega Gardy? Sylveon doesn't hit THAT much harder, and being locked into Psyshock or Shadow Ball is an invitation for many things (Mega T-Tar, Mega Scizor, even Zard X/Azumarill) to come in and set up for fucking free. Sure, Gardy takes up the mega slot and she dies to any Bullet Punch or Brave Bird thrown at her, but she isn't locked into any move and can screw with physical attackers very easily (will-o-wisp) while hitting hard as hell. If you want to use another mega, you can use Specs Sylveon though.
Because being part Psychic-type really sucks defensively (makes you neutral to Bug and Dark); that plus Mega Garde's horrible HP stat make it so that Sylveon has a much easier time coming in on many threats. Pure Fairy-type is actually very good defensively; also there's an opportunity cost for using Mega Gardevoir being the Mega slot. Psyshock and Shadow Ball are filler anyways, usually you're just clicking Hyper Voice or HP Fire if they have a Ferrothorn/Scizor. And yeah Sylveon does hit quite a bit harder too. The main factor is that Sylveon can actually switch in on stuff, while Gardevoir has to do things like predicting Secret Sword from Keldeo to get in safely.

On that note Magic Guard does not actually compensate for Clefable's worse special bulk...

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Sylveon: 144-172 (36.5 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Calm over Bold because it's more EV efficient if you're wondering)
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 218-257 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

First of all Stealth Rock needs to be up for that argument to even be made which is not always the case. Secondly, that's a significant difference in special bulk. Even if you factor in SR Sylveon still does better. Not to mention that Sylveon benefits greatly from a teammate like Defog Mandibuzz or Skarmory because they're physical walls, appreciate a switch in to Thundurus/Greninja and cleric support... You essentially get walls with reliable recovery for both sides of the spectrum, Defog, Wish, Heal Bell and decent offensive presence with just two team slots, yeah I'd sign up for that.

Either way, I feel like this Sylveon discussion is dragging on way longer than it needs to... I see people just reiterating the same arguments at this point. I suggest it moves up to B-, because it's definitely a legitimate mon in the current metagame (name something that reliably walls both Greninja and Thundurus-I while still having offensive presence for example) and it has a good niche over its competitors no matter whether it runs Specs or a Cleric set.
 
Can Clefable perform everything better? No, Sylveon performs Specs better, and is arguably superior in less passively oriented Stall. But is it outclassed? Generally but not always. Should it remain in C/C+? Yes it should.
Two things. First, "Less passive stall" is the name of any stall team that wishes to survive in this meta. I'll get to that in a moment. Secondly, you can't be outclassed in roles you don't attempt to perform. Sylveon doesn't serve as a MG stall breaker or an unaware catch-all. If anything, it is a special wall that carries over it's nuking capabilities for stall teams. I'm not sure anyone right now is using Clefable's full cleric class right now (aka the wish/bell/protect/moonblast set) because it has literally no presence. The one clefable I can think of on stall (and this is a bit outdated) is Tesung's MG clef because stallbreaking clefable has some nice presence. Sylveon again is an asset to stall that is otherwise too passive because it provides pressure with an incredibly powerful stab attack. Sylveon in general is all about the powerful hyper voice attack it has, which is far more important than it seems. Chansey right now is absolute fodder in a meta where every special wallbreaker has taunt or knock off. Really, suggesting that a cleric that doesn't hinder your offensive momentum (Sylveon being one of like 2 in OU, if you consider Jirachi) is no better than Smeargle and MAbsol is kinda sad.

Secondly... can Doublade at LEAST get C+? A spdef set of rest/sacred sword/shadow sneak/iron head is surprisingly good in OU. The pursuit trappers cannot switch in, and scarf/support TTar's pursuit does about 50% max if doublade switches out. If he stays in and sacred swords, dead ttar.

The counters are way more than anything in C. He gets the lati twins, Terrak, checks down Pinsir-mega, counters GardM, HeraM, MediM, checks alakazam (the taunt version harasses stall), beats MAerodactyl, can pivot into Rotom-wash due to rest and stall out anything it has, takes on choice locked TF and Keldeo, takes special thundy, walls general form Gyarados and can check a weakened +2 Mgara with Sacred Sword on a spdef set:

+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 256-302 (79.5 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
16+ Atk Doublade Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 146-172 (44.1 - 51.9%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO

This is all just from the A rank viability. It has the typing of Aegislash in a meta that has completely forgotten about Aegislash's typing. You can just lean on it with good cleric support and it takes on about 40% of the meta unconditionally, as well as having incredible bulk (more than aegislash) to take on some things with SE moves. I think C is underselling him by a ton.


Lastly, can we move goth to like C-? We don't need stallbreakers with so little utility vs offense. The meta has given three stall breakers that do very well against offense and mew, who is incredibly tough to take for stall and bulky enough to give offensive teams a hard time breaking past when it starts spamming willowisp. B- is not a good rank for Goth, it's just not very good.
 
Secondly... can Doublade at LEAST get C+? A spdef set of rest/sacred sword/shadow sneak/iron head is surprisingly good in OU. The pursuit trappers cannot switch in, and scarf/support TTar's pursuit does about 50% max if doublade switches out. If he stays in and sacred swords, dead ttar.

The counters are way more than anything in C. He gets the lati twins, Terrak, checks down Pinsir-mega, counters GardM, HeraM, MediM, checks alakazam (the taunt version harasses stall), beats MAerodactyl, can pivot into Rotom-wash due to rest and stall out anything it has, takes on choice locked TF and Keldeo, takes special thundy, walls general form Gyarados and can check a weakened +2 Mgara with Sacred Sword on a spdef set:

+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 256-302 (79.5 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
16+ Atk Doublade Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 146-172 (44.1 - 51.9%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO

This is all just from the A rank viability. It has the typing of Aegislash in a meta that has completely forgotten about Aegislash's typing. You can just lean on it with good cleric support and it takes on about 40% of the meta unconditionally, as well as having incredible bulk (more than aegislash) to take on some things with SE moves. I think C is underselling him by a ton.
Doublade becomes a sitting duck if it chooses to use Rest and Zard X and CM Landorus can use it as setup fodder. It's waaaaaay too weak and has no reliable recovery moves. C rank is fine for it.
 
D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.

"Severely outclassed"? I know that Salamence is better than the others in the D rank and also rivals some of the B to A+ Pokemon in OU.

In my opinion, Salamece should move up to C-/C because of it's sweeping abilities once set up. Even when it isn't setup, it's sheer attack and ability Moxie help it greatly. Iron Tail wrecks all fairies in the metagame, Fire Fang/Blast covers for the steel types not hit by EQ (Ferrothorn and Skarmory) and not to mention that it can hold an item, unlike Charizard X.

Gen 6 may of not been nice to it, releasing Fairies, megas and Greninja, but nevertheless it still stands tall. It can get past Skarmory and Ferrothorn if it runs Fire Blast/Fang which most Dragon Dancers get walled by. After a single DD it can plow through teams not containing: Quagsire, Heatran (If it doesn't run EQ) and Skarm/Scizor/Ferrothorn (If it doesn't run Fire Blast/Fang).

It is also one of the only Dragon Dancers that can run mixed sets, surprising physical walls such as Skarmory, Mega Aggron and Mega scizor, making it more diverse and unique than others that can use DD.

In conclusion, Salamence is a great DD pokemon that can be modified in moveset to fit many situations within the OU metagame.
 
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D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.

"Severely outclassed"? I know that Salamence is better than the others in the D rank and also rivals some of the B to A+ Pokemon in OU.

In my opinion, Salamece should move up to C-/C because of it's sweeping abilities once set up. Even when it isn't setup, it's sheer attack and ability Moxie help it greatly. Iron Tail wrecks all fairies in the metagame, Fire Fang/Blast covers for the steel types not hit by EQ (Ferrothorn and Skarmory) and not to mention that it can hold an item, unlike Charizard X.

Gen 6 may of not been nice to it, releasing Fairies, megas and Greninja, but nevertheless it still stands tall. It can get past Skarmory and Ferrothorn if it runs Fire Blast/Fang which most Dragon Dancers get walled by. After a single DD it can plow through teams not containing: Quagsire, Heatran (If it doesn't run EQ) and Skarm/Scizor/Ferrothorn (If it doesn't run Fire Blast/Fang).

It is also one of the only Dragon Dancers that can run mixed sets, surprising physical walls such as Skarmory, Mega Aggron and Mega scizor, making it more diverse and unique than others that can use DD.

In conclusion, Salamence is a great DD pokemon that can be modified in moveset to fit many situations within the OU metagame.
The thing is that Salamence not only competes heavily with Zard X, it's also hard walled by Clefable; two pokes that are very meta-defining atm. I found Lum Mence working the best because it gives it a niche over WP Dragonite and you can avoid a para from Thundurus unlike Zard X... Dragonite also doesn't want to miss out on E-Speed and often relies on it because it's not that fast; so Mence can capitalize on that by running Fire Blast AND Earthquake, hitting most of his checks... The problem is that there will always be Zard X; even Dragonite will usually go CB because 1: it's a good set and 2: Zard X does DD better. Salamence kind of struggles to stand out here; it has a set with Wish and Defog but I think that's pretty gimmicky... There's the special set, but you don't even OHKO defensive Landorus-T guaranteed with Hydro Pump which is rather depressing, it's often scarfed as well...

Zard X is pretty much the main reason Mence is D rank; without it it might have a shot at moving up but there's just little to no reason to use Mence atm. I suggest waiting until ORAS so you can use him in Ubers :]
 
From my perspective Tyranitar, Gyarados, and CharX severely overshadow Salamence in all the points you brought up. Since Mence isn't moving to the upper tiers and he can't compete with said DDer's why not compare him instead to Haxorus?

I would say that they're both competing for a similar position. A wallbreaker that is also able to sweep in the right conditions. Salamence accomplishes this with its mixed movepool while Haxorus gets by with sheer power. Salamence has the luxury of using Fireblast but it's just not strong enough. Even if you invest in SpA that leaves you more vulnerable to fairies especially if they're defensively invested. Not to mention the accuracy of Iron Tail compared to Poison Jab. It's secondary typing is also doing it no favors. Haxorus simply outclasses Mence in terms of wallbreaking. Salamence wants to be a sweeper but the meta is stacked against it doing its job and its wallbreaking power is just not there therefore I don't think it should move up.
 

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Because being part Psychic-type really sucks defensively (makes you neutral to Bug and Dark); that plus Mega Garde's horrible HP stat make it so that Sylveon has a much easier time coming in on many threats. Pure Fairy-type is actually very good defensively; also there's an opportunity cost for using Mega Gardevoir being the Mega slot. Psyshock and Shadow Ball are filler anyways, usually you're just clicking Hyper Voice or HP Fire if they have a Ferrothorn/Scizor. And yeah Sylveon does hit quite a bit harder too. The main factor is that Sylveon can actually switch in on stuff, while Gardevoir has to do things like predicting Secret Sword from Keldeo to get in safely.

On that note Magic Guard does not actually compensate for Clefable's worse special bulk...

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Sylveon: 144-172 (36.5 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Calm over Bold because it's more EV efficient if you're wondering)
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 218-257 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

First of all Stealth Rock needs to be up for that argument to even be made which is not always the case. Secondly, that's a significant difference in special bulk. Even if you factor in SR Sylveon still does better. Not to mention that Sylveon benefits greatly from a teammate like Defog Mandibuzz or Skarmory because they're physical walls, appreciate a switch in to Thundurus/Greninja and cleric support... You essentially get walls with reliable recovery for both sides of the spectrum, Defog, Wish, Heal Bell and decent offensive presence with just two team slots, yeah I'd sign up for that.

Either way, I feel like this Sylveon discussion is dragging on way longer than it needs to... I see people just reiterating the same arguments at this point. I suggest it moves up to B-, because it's definitely a legitimate mon in the current metagame (name something that reliably walls both Greninja and Thundurus-I while still having offensive presence for example) and it has a good niche over its competitors no matter whether it runs Specs or a Cleric set.
That's because you are comparing the wrong Clefable spread. With the right investment, Clefable can avoid the 2HKO from LO Thundurus's Thunderbolt and Greninja's LO Hydro Pump while having having better physical bulk than max HP / max Def+ Sylveon, factoring in Stealth Rock.
  • 252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 177-211 (44.9 - 53.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 160-188 (40.6 - 47.7%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
  • 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 165-196 (41.8 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 149-177 (37.8 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
  • 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 161-191 (40.8 - 48.4%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
So, with the right spread and SR up, Clefable has a tad better overall bulk. Take into account residual damage from Pokemon those clerics are supposed to check, such as WoW Rotom-W, Scald Scarf Keldeo, and Scald / Toxic Slowbro, and you will find that Clefable has better walling abilities in the long run thanks to Magic Guard.

Regarding Doublade, my concern about moving it up is that's its very passive and lacks any kind of reliably recovery, making it very easy to wear down. It also lacks any kind of pivoting or support moves, so it provides zero team support. It checks a lot true, but it needs excessive team support to be worth it, and it's very passive. If enough people want it to go to C+ i will consider it, but C seems better for it.

Finally, i haven't seen a single good DD Salamence or Scarf Salamence team and i still think it's terribly outclassed. As a scarfer it lacks a spammable move, unlike popular scarfers such as Keldeo, Landorus-T, and Terrakion, is SR weak, and can't revenge kill dangerous sweepers such as Mega Gyarados and Mega Tyranitar from full health. It's supposed to be a late-game cleaner, but with many teams packing both a Steel-type, a Fairy-type, and priority, cleaning up with it is almost impossible without providing excessive team support, team support that would be better spend on something else. Dragon Dance has too much competition and is almost entirely outclassed by the plethora of Dragon Dance users available, either discounting Mega Evolutions. Dragon Dance Dragonite has Extremespeed and Multiscale, both of which make up for Mence's higher Speed and allow Dragonite to be a much bigger threat to offensive teams, being able to outspeed opposing priority and Scarf users after a DD boost. Even if Dragonite doesn't manage to set up, it can still be usefull thanks to Extremespeed, by revenge killing weakened offensive Pokemon, which can't be said about DD Salamence, which is easy to wall and doesn't really check anything. DD Gyarados has a way better defensive typing and overall bulk, which provide it more set up chances and make it harder to revenge kill, as it is not weak to any form of priority and resists Bullet Punch. It also has way better coverage with just Waterfall + Bounce and can use Substitute to avoid status.

tl;dr Salmence is severely outclassed and i don't see it moving out of D rank.
 
Would anyone mind responding to the idea of Mew moving from A ----> A+, either for or against? I made a post about it yesterday, and I was just curious to hear what people might think. I've seen a couple of other people support the notion of Mew moving to A+ as well, but it never really sparked a conversation of any kind.
 
Mew is so overhyped (so is calling mew overhyped by now) and yes, it is a great stallbreaker, which also have a decent matchup against offense, but A+ is just too gentle, i just don't feel like it can compete with the other mons in A+

All the other mons just does more than this small pink blop. Mew lacks the ability to switch into a lot of the strong attacks that is currently defining the meta. The other pokemons in the rank also performs multiple roles, or one really great, such as ferrothorn and greninja, which both are just that more vailable. Also, i just don't see it ling up to the standarts set by treats such as excadrill, latios, terrakion, heatran and clefable.

I believe A is well fitting for mew, and it really seems to be as good as the other mons in that rank, such as garchomp and mamoswine.
 
Mew is so overhyped (so is calling mew overhyped by now) and yes, it is a great stallbreaker, which also have a decent matchup against offense, but A+ is just too gentle, i just don't feel like it can compete with the other mons in A+

All the other mons just does more than this small pink blop. Mew lacks the ability to switch into a lot of the strong attacks that is currently defining the meta. The other pokemons in the rank also performs multiple roles, or one really great, such as ferrothorn and greninja, which both are just that more vailable. Also, i just don't see it ling up to the standarts set by treats such as excadrill, latios, terrakion, heatran and clefable.

I believe A is well fitting for mew, and it really seems to be as good as the other mons in that rank, such as garchomp and mamoswine.
Doesn't being able to break stall and neuter physical attackers simultaneously qualify as having more than one role?

Mew can absolutely switch into a lot of strong physical attacks. I mean, he can't stop Mega Charizard X, and you can't switch him into a Mega Heracross Pin Missile, but the vast majority of offensive threats won't be able to 2HKO Mew. Mons that are slower than Mew can't get off a 2nd attack without being burned, and there aren't many physical attackers faster than Mew which can 2HKO it.

Part of what gives a Pokemon an "A rank" is the ability to check a large portion of the metagame without requiring team support. That's exactly what Mew does. It checks a huge portion of the metagame, and it requires no team support in order to do its thing. And that's just with the Will-O-Wisp moveset. It can take physical hits, break stalling, force switches, inflict burn and knock off items. Or you can forego the option to knock off items and keep momentum, with U-turn or Volt Switch. Its options are just so vast. What gives Mew an extra boost is the fact that it can still run many other movesets effectively, making it not nearly as predictable as many other Mons.

In any case, I'm not going to continue with my argument, because given the fact that 6 people liked your comment in a short period of time, clearly my opinion is unpopular.
 
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Doesn't being able to break stall and neuter physical attackers simultaneously qualify as having more than one role?

Mew can absolutely switch into a lot of strong physical attacks. I mean, he can't stop Mega Charizard X, and you can't switch him into a Mega Heracross Pin Missile, but the vast majority of offensive threats won't be to 2HKO Mew. Mons that are slower than Mew can't get off a 2nd attack without being burned, and there aren't many physical attackers faster than Mew which can 2HKO it from the physical side.

Part of what gives a Pokemon an "A rank" is the ability to check a large portion of the metagame without requiring team support. That's exactly what Mew does. It checks a huge portion of the metagame, and it requires no team support in order to do its thing. And that's just with the Will-O-Wisp moveset. It can take physical hits, break stalling, force switches, inflict burn and knock off items. Or you can forego the option to knock off items and keep momentum, with U-turn or Volt Switch. Its options are just so vast. What gives Mew an extra boost is the fact that it can still run many other movesets effectively, making it not nearly as predictable as many other Mons.

In any case, I'm not going to continue with my argument, because given the fact that 6 people to liked your comment in a short period of time, clearly my opinion is unpopular.

Its mainly due to the fact it wasn't that long ago Mew was denied moving up to the A+ Rankings and nothing has changed significantly to effect it moving up in any such way. Its a phenomenal mon sure, but its not quiet up there in regards of Char Y, Greninja or Talonflame in the effects on the current meta.
 
Its mainly due to the fact it wasn't that long ago Mew was denied moving up to the A+ Rankings and nothing has changed significantly to effect it moving up in any such way. Its a phenomenal mon sure, but its not quiet up there in regards of Char Y, Greninja or Talonflame in the effects on the current meta.
Oh, I was totally unaware that Mew for A+ has already been the subject of debate. Is that something I would be able to find in this thread? But yeah, if it was just recently debated, then sorry for bringing it up again so soon.

I think the main reason I decided to make an argument for it is because I was just having incredible success with it. I have a team that got to the 1700s in the ladder (the highest I've ever gotten) and Mew was consistently my team MVP. I find there's almost never a match in which it isn't extremely useful, and it's pretty much a godsend against tough stall teams.
 
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Jacks0n

formerly grassycow
upload_2014-9-18_18-55-27.png
-> A-
Just an amazing mon right now. Birds are as popular as ever and mega man just destroys them, as well as being an amazing offensive check to thundy. It provides momentum, utility, speed and coveredge and threatens all offensive and balanced teams. Its got heaps of pros over raikou and deserves to be ranked alongside mega zam and mega aero.
 
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