Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

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I would like to make a case for Mega Aggron to stay in C+. I have been using it the past couple days (after not using it before) and it does performs well. 140 Base Attack is great for it and often goes unnoticed, even uninvested it can hit back hard. A strong STAB in Iron Head hits a decent amount of things neutrally. It also has the coverage moves to hit it's threats. Some combination of Stone Edge, Earthquake and Ice Punch allows it to hit anything that's not Ferro or Skarm decently hard. The Tank set that consists of Iron Head, Stealth Rock and two coverage moves does a good job of handling a wide variety of different threats. It handles BirdSpam as well as Rhyperior does and it handles Sand Offense well in addition to that. It does need Wish support, but bulky wish passing Fairies, particularly Sylveon, partner extremely with it. It is literally a better Rhyperior in almost every way. I has overall higher stats, better defensive typing, and it fits better with common Wish Passers. Overall I think it needs to stay in C+ rank. Pure defensive and support sets do not merit this rank, but it's offensive Tank set does. Very effective glue on bulky offense teams.
Mega Aggron suffers from significant opportunity cost due to getting worn so easily, and is usually not worth the Mega Slot. Most of the time I would rather just use something else. Move Mega Aggron down to C Rank.
 

Srn

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I would like to make a case for Mega Aggron to stay in C+. I have been using it the past couple days (after not using it before) and it does performs well. 140 Base Attack is great for it and often goes unnoticed, even uninvested it can hit back hard. A strong STAB in Iron Head hits a decent amount of things neutrally. It also has the coverage moves to hit it's threats. Some combination of Stone Edge, Earthquake and Ice Punch allows it to hit anything that's not Ferro or Skarm decently hard. The Tank set that consists of Iron Head, Stealth Rock and two coverage moves does a good job of handling a wide variety of different threats. It handles BirdSpam as well as Rhyperior does and it handles Sand Offense well in addition to that. It does need Wish support, but bulky wish passing Fairies, particularly Sylveon, partner extremely with it. It is literally a better Rhyperior in almost every way. I has overall higher stats, better defensive typing, and it fits better with common Wish Passers. Overall I think it needs to stay in C+ rank. Pure defensive and support sets do not merit this rank, but it's offensive Tank set does. Very effective glue on bulky offense teams.
Except rhyperior can block volturn and thus counters raikou (watch out for specs hp ice tho :[ ) and megaman, which is a GIGANTIC asset. Its really fking annoying when volt switchers just do their thing and wear down ur team if you don't have amoong.
Additionally, while maggron can take a flare blitz from talon, it doesn't resist it and it doesn't take it comfortably, especially for a mon with zero recovery. Rhyperior resists that shit, making it a far better answer to talon and flyspam as a whole.
 
Okay there was a lot of discussion earlier about this but I didn't see a clear conclusion so I'd like to renominate Sylveon for B-. Since I have very little experience with its cleric set and I feel that it has been discussed to death, I will not bring it up. However, I have been using the specs set quite a bit and can say that it is very underrated. With specs on, Sylveon hits incredibly hard 2HKOing pokemon like spDef gliscor, spDef Hippowdon, and mew( This guy is incredibly important because many people switch into sylveon with him thinking he's taunt bait). Also, even without SpDef investment, Sylveon has usable special bulk that grants him switch in opportunities.
Another important thing to consider is that there is very little competition for a fairy type spAtking wholepuncher. Fairy type is an incredible type right now in the metagame and specially offensive fairies are not very common in the metagame. In fact, his only true competition in this field is Mega Gardevoir, who while is better than sylv, takes up a mega spot that can be used for another mon on the team. Another pokemon people will bring up when discussing spAtking Fairies is Clefable. While clefable does somewhat offer this role, it requires some sort of setting up before it's hitting as hard as sylveon.

One last thing to consider is look at the other pokemon sylv is being ranked with right now. In my opinion, Sylv is so much better than Absol, Aggron, and every other mon in C+, while being as good if not better than B- mons like zapdos, weavile, and sableye. I personally would like it to go to B rank but i can settle for B- for now.

tl;dr Sylveon's spec set is truly underrated and is deserving of a higher viability ranking
 
I wish people would stop looking at Aggron as some magic and perfect physical wall that wishes it had Recover and is a total failure because it doesn't break BirdSpam. It doesn't beat Pinsir. It doesn't beat Talonflame. (Head Smash changes that but... it's Head Smash) Aggron is often played as an emergency check to all physical attackers as no physical hit can OHKO it without a boost with the right EVs. Yes. Even unboosted Zard X Flare Blitz. Rhyperior is a BirdSpam counter, Aggron is purely a physical wall/tank/emergency check to things, they play completely differently and shouldn't be compared for that.
 
Again, I'm just arguing for it to hold point where it is. Rhyperior is more relevent in stopping BirdSpam, but Mega Aggron handles general physical attacks better. Also, while Rhyperior stops VoltTurn cold, Mega Aggron stops all Toxic and isn't scared off by even the weakest of Water and Grass attacks. Having no 4x weaknesses to speak of is also an advantage with the way that ability works.
 
thoughts:



Move down to C

Don't get me wrong, this thing has amazing physical defense. And Filter is just such as great ability. LO Excadrill fails to 2HKO it, and it pretty much checks any non-boosted physical attacker in the tier. And, well, yeah. That's as far as it goes. Mega Aggron, simply put, fails to do much in this metagame. With the abundance of Mega Zard Y, Landorus, and other special attackers in the tier, it pretty much just can't stand up to them as well. Mega Aggron is also slow as shit, it's pretty much outsped by anything with Speed investment. Being forced to run RestTalk is pretty bad for a wall, if you ask me. Its damage output is somewhat mediocre, as it usually focuses on its defenses rather than its offenses. The fact that it even loses to some physical attackers such as Conkeldurr is pretty ridiculous. As a matter of fact, the only thing stopping me from wanting to nominate it even lower is its support movepool with some things such as Thunder Wave and Stealth Rock. Mega Aggron is also the premier setup fodder for other Pokemon such as Suicune and SubDD Gyarados. Mega Aggron is also one of the easiest Pokemon to prepare for. I have never made a team without at least one Pokemon that can stall out or OHKO Mega Aggron (see: Rotom-W). To put this in perspective, I have never seen one of these in team preview and thought something like "oh fucking shit, it's a mega aggron" With all these points in mind, I think Mega Aggron should move down to C.



Move up to S

It's extremely hard to make a team without Latios. I actually did a bunch of testing today without Latios, and I have seen a huge plethora of problems that I could easily solve with Latios. It has a godly defensive typing, Dragon / Psychic with Levitate allows it to switch into so many things. I'm extremely discouraged from using Choice-locked Pokemon knowing Latios is around. Latios also has many options. Defog support is usually its best role due to the fact that Latios isn't weak to Stealth Rock. However, since I am very pro-Latios, I've pretty much experimented with any viable set it has. Life Orb Draco Meteor hits insanely hard. So hard, there aren't any Pokemon that don't resist Draco Meteor that won't be taking at least half damage. To an extent, Choice Scarf also does a good job cleaning out everything due to Latios's sheer power, albeit being no more than a somewhat good gimmick. I see what the defendants of keeping Latios in A+ are saying, but I can't agree with it. It's easy to tell Latios has 4MSS, but isn't that what you have 5 other Pokemon for? Latios shouldn't be used as a sweeper (unless you're the idiot using Dragon Dance) but moreso a wallbreaker and Defog support. Latios's ability to remove Defog without being weak to Stealth Rock nor being grounded as well as being able to dent almost any Pokemon warrants a spot in S.



Move up to B-

The nomination to move Mega Houndoom to B- was made last page, and it got a pretty good amount of people who agree with it. I'm not sure where to go with this one. I do agree that it is underrated, but there are reasons why. Mega Houndoom has two actually viable sets (sun sets are meh, so I don't agree with those); those are Nasty Plot and Will-O-Wisp. I personally think Will-O-Wisp is pretty good for physical attackers, but I think the main spotlight is on Nasty Plot. Nasty Plot Fire Blast is extremely powerful, and Dark Pulse is great coverage for Pokemon that resist Fire Blast (bar Azumarill). Destiny Bond support is actually nice too. I also love how good of a counter this thing is to Mega Charizard Y, as it can pivot into Fire-type attacks and then benefit from the sun. Mega Houndoom is actually a really dangerous Pokemon after Nasty Plot and I personally think that if it could outspeed Greninja and other Pokemon, wasn't walled by Pokemon such as Heatran and boosted Pokemon, and wasn't so weak to priority that it would be a higher rank than it already is. However, nonetheless, I feel like Mega Houndoom needs B- to justify its great wallbreaking skills.

 

Srn

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I wish people would stop looking at Aggron as some magic and perfect physical wall that wishes it had Recover and is a total failure because it doesn't break BirdSpam. It doesn't beat Pinsir. It doesn't beat Talonflame. (Head Smash changes that but... it's Head Smash) Aggron is often played as an emergency check to all physical attackers as no physical hit can OHKO it without a boost with the right EVs. Yes. Even unboosted Zard X Flare Blitz. Rhyperior is a BirdSpam counter, Aggron is purely a physical wall/tank/emergency check to things, they play completely differently and shouldn't be compared for that.
Be that as it may, but that's not how stall teams should play (where maggron is supposed to fit in) Stall teams need members to reliably check shit, having a bunch of emergency one-time woop de fuk buttons is not the way you wanna go with stall, that's how you wanna go with offense. If you have a bad matchup when i guess you can't help it, but ultimately you want to be able to take on threats reliably and consistently with stall and no amount of wish support can really fix that w/ maggron. The things it counters can ultimately be done far more reliably by a bunch of other mons which don't require as much support or have as high as opportunity cost (using up mega slot). Don't use emergency checks to all physical attackers, try and use a combination of pokemon to shut down a majority of all physical attackers. That's what stall is better off doing.
 
Be that as it may, but that's not how stall teams should play (where maggron is supposed to fit in) Stall teams need members to reliably check shit, having a bunch of emergency one-time woop de fuk buttons is not the way you wanna go with stall, that's how you wanna go with offense. If you have a bad matchup when i guess you can't help it, but ultimately you want to be able to take on threats reliably and consistently with stall and no amount of wish support can really fix that w/ maggron. The things it counters can ultimately be done far more reliably by a bunch of other mons which don't require as much support or have as high as opportunity cost (using up mega slot).
I never said it should or shouldn't drop, just said the hate for it wasn't in the right place. It has a usable niche and shouldn't go in D, ever, but maybe not C+.

I kind of agree with a Houndoom rise as well, but it's a bit prone to revenge killing and gets smashed by Azu and Smogonbird if they switch into a NP, and Talon is immune to Will-O too.

Latios should never be S, it's simply not good enough. It has a lot of things going for it sure, but that Pursuit weakness and the fact that it's either walled, worn down, or lacks Defog (in other words, 4MSS) prevent it from S
 
I can agree with Meggron moving down sadly. He is a defensive Titan but often he is not the most nimble of absorbers. I think the best argument to him being moved down is where does he fit in better, alongside Mega Absol or Mega Toise? A frail and fast assaulted or a limited support spinner. I'm not saying that they share similar roles but do to the viability of Meggron in the meta I believe he fits in just as well as Mega Toise does due to the competition he faces as a defense mon and defensive mega is a bit too great for him to fully overcome.

And if it has been stated once it can be stated again: Crawdaunt to B-!
 
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I think the Lando forms should stay where they are. Yes Lando-Ts usage exploded due to it beeing very useful in the current meta as it checks a bunch of dangerous things. But lets be realistic here, its not like its all that dangerous. The Scarf set is incredibly prediction reliant because beeing locked into EQ, Superpower or Stone Edge is very undesirable so every time you use it to check something you have to predict if the sweeper switches or stays in. If you go for the kill you might end up giving something a free switch, if you go for Uturn predicting a switch you might get your ass swept. The Pivot set is useful no doubt, but here again its hardly threatening at all. Without investment 145 base atk isnt that impressive and your coverage is limited since U-turn and SR are basicly a must have on it. Then we have the lack of recovery meaning it cant switch into the things it wants to check all that often. And bringing up usage as an argument... We should all know by now that usage and viability are two different things. Imo Lando-T is just a useful glue to many teams because its a halfway decent answer to many threats while also providing SR. Regarding SR however it should be mentioned that its not realy a good setter as most hazard removers beat it. At the end of the day it does a lot of things but none of it realy well. It can check stuff, but gets worn down fast, it can set SR but sucks against most defogers/spinners, it can revengekill with a scarf but doesnt want to be choice locked at all cause its moves are so easily exploitable. Yeah its easy to slap on a team but still, imo its no S rank material even with lowered standards.

Lando-I however is a huge pain in the ass unless your running one of its few counters. Switching into it is painful as hell and there isnt much that can do it without beeing heavily crippled. It can set up SR as well and is arguably even better at it as it can beat some of the hazard removers. Its far more versatile than its therian form which is limited to 2 sets who always run the same moves with very little room for changes and the few changes it can do dont realy affect the things it can handle. Lando-I on the other hand can change its role, and its counters so drastically that you dont want to deal with it at all until you know the full set. CM, RP, Sludgewave, Knock off, Focus blast, Psychic, SR yes it cant use all of it which is kinda problematic for the user but never knowing which move it has is still very problematic for the opponent. Slapping it onto a team is just as easy as its therian form because every team loves the power and utility it brings and since it doesnt need any support it can fit into every kind of team. Unlike the T form its incredibly strong against defensive teams while still beeing usefull against offensive ones. Yes there is a bunch of faster stuff that can force it out but getting that stuff in is a pain and lando has no trouble what so ever just switching out and come back in later in the game to be a pain again.

to cut a long story short:

Lando-t:
excellent glue to many teams, better against offensive teams, can perform 2 roles but isnt all that good at both of them, useless against defensive ones

Lando-I: Useful against offense and defense, incredibly hard to switch into, unpredictable as it can perform many different roles well.

And yeah i see it more from the "how threatening is the mon" than from the "how easy is it to slap it on a team" point of view because its the first group that i have to consider when i build teams and that give me a headache ingame when i have no way to deal to with them. If your unprepared for Lando-T its not gonna hurt you all that much cause its easy to play around, wear down and to check/counter, beeing unprepared for Lando-I can fuck up half your team before you can get rid of it.

Oh and regarding Keldeo, please stop acting like it can break through all of its counters because Scald has a 30% burn chance. Often enough you wont get a burn in the first place and even if you do things like Recover Lati@s, Venu, Slowbro, Amoon, Cune etc still wall you to hell and back for all eternity even if they are burned. Sure they dont like it but their ability to do their job isnt hampered all that much. Chances are high that Keldeo wont do much if anything at all when there is one of those mons on the opposing team.
 
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Being forced to run RestTalk is pretty bad for a wall, if you ask me.
So don't run RestTalk

Its damage output is somewhat mediocre, as it usually focuses on its defenses rather than its offenses.
So just run 252+ Atk

The fact that it even loses to some physical attackers such as Conkeldurr is pretty ridiculous.
In fairness, Conkeldurr wins cause it just spams Drain Punch... also Conk isn't all that important.

Mega Aggron is also the premier setup fodder for other Pokemon such as Suicune
Suicune uses so much shit as set-up fodder are you being serious?

and SubDD Gyarados.
Use Stone Edge.

Be that as it may, but that's not how stall teams should play (where maggron is supposed to fit in)
._.

I don't particularly care where M-Aggron goes cause I agree it's not all that good (though I do think it's plenty good enough for C+ish, and its main flaw is being a mega-evo which is an issue for any low-ranking mega) but these arguments are imo akin to "Heatran is a bad sweeper so it should drop."

M-Aggron's best set is either of 3atk+SR or 3atk+TWave, with max Atk investment.

-It's crap at perpetually walling things (RestTalk), so don't try to do that.
-It's crap at punching things when running max bulk, so don't run max bulk.

0 Atk Mega Aggron Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 254-300 (78.6 - 92.8%)
boooo
252+ Atk Mega Aggron Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 332-392 (102.7 - 121.3%)
yaaaaay

-It's crap and set-up fodder without the coverage to OHKO the things you want it to beat, so run the moves to hit the things you want to beat

0 Atk Mega Aggron Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 54-63 (16.3 - 19%)
boooo
252+ Atk Mega Aggron Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 282-332 (85.1 - 100.3%)
yaaaaay

-It's crap on stall teams due to lack of recovery or team support beyond rocks, so don't run it on stall teams.

M-Aggron is an excessively bulky tank that can switch in and beat virtually every single physical attacker that's not X-zard or Terrakion or something, given that it has already M-Evolved and has the coverage to hit it hard. It's a really nice one- or two-time stop to tons of shit, like if something is not STAB, SE, item-boosted, and 100 or greater BP off of very high attack it's not going to come to close to 2HKOing if it's not boosted, and Aggron can easily OHKO back if it has the right move. It should be ranked based off of its capabilities in this area, not whatever other garbage sets people are running.

Also to be fair it's really easy to pass wishes to.
 
I personally think Rotom W should be A+ because of my favourite set, the choice scarf:
Voltergeist (Rotom-Wash) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Trick
This is because it beats a huge chunk of the most common pokemon, and can cripple just about any wall it comes across, this combined with having a brilliant typing and ability, leaving it weak to only grass
It has enough speed to outspeed timid greninja by 1 point, and beats:
Greninja (Volt Switch OHKO)
Charizard Y (Volt Switch OHKO after SR)
Talonflame (Hydro Pump OHKO)
Most (Mega) Scizor Sets (Hydro Pump 2HKO after SR)
Excadrill (Non Scarf) (Hydro Pump OHKO)
(Mega) Tyranitar (Hydro Pump 2HKO)
Landorus (T and I) (Hydro Pump OHKO)
Garchomp (does a minimum of 80% with HP Ice, small chance to OHKO after SR)
Gliscor (even a specially defensive set is OHKO'd by Hydro Pump after SR)
Skarmory (Volt Switch 2HKO (Sturdy))
Keldeo (Non Scarf) (Volt Switch 2HKO)
Mega Pinsir (Volt Switch 25% chance to OHKO without SR)
Non Mega Gyarados (Volt Switch OHKO)
Slowbro (Volt Switch 2HKO)
To name few
 

AM

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I personally think Rotom W should be A+ because of my favourite set, the choice scarf:
Voltergeist (Rotom-Wash) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Trick
This is because it beats a huge chunk of the most common pokemon, and can cripple just about any wall it comes across, this combined with having a brilliant typing and ability, leaving it weak to only grass
It has enough speed to outspeed timid greninja by 1 point, and beats:
Greninja (Volt Switch OHKO)
Charizard Y (Volt Switch OHKO after SR)
Talonflame (Hydro Pump OHKO)
Most (Mega) Scizor Sets (Hydro Pump 2HKO after SR)
Excadrill (Non Scarf) (Hydro Pump OHKO)
(Mega) Tyranitar (Hydro Pump 2HKO)
Landorus (T and I) (Hydro Pump OHKO)
Garchomp (does a minimum of 80% with HP Ice, small chance to OHKO after SR)
Gliscor (even a specially defensive set is OHKO'd by Hydro Pump after SR)
Skarmory (Volt Switch 2HKO (Sturdy))
Keldeo (Non Scarf) (Volt Switch 2HKO)
Mega Pinsir (Volt Switch 25% chance to OHKO without SR)
Non Mega Gyarados (Volt Switch OHKO)
Slowbro (Volt Switch 2HKO)
To name few
Rotom-W is at A because of what it does well, and that's provide momentum and also as a birdspam check. With Scarf it loses these traits and becomes even less useful, which is generally not even a good set in true practice anyways. Most of the points you pointed out are irrelevant because once you reveal the scarf, which is pretty obvious on something like Rotom-W, it's nice and easy to take advantage of. Stick to bulky variants my friend, it'll be more worthwhile in the long run.
 
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Some minor tweaks:

I've been playing recently with all the various Gyarados sets and I'm pretty impressed. Impressed enough that I don't think it should be ranked below Rotom-W or Dragonite.

Rotom-W is a nice pivot and all but too often it just doesn't do anything. Gyarados has a range of sets that provide for not too dissimilar bulk whilst offering an attacking presence. If you want status, it can run Thunder Wave too. Intimidate allows it to come in on a lot of the same physical threats that Rotom shuts down. And Waterfall lasts a lot longer than Hydro Pump. It seems a slightly odd comparison, but I rarely find myself wanting Rotom-W without realising that Gyarados can do the same thing better. Yes, you lose burns and volt-switch, but an ability to spread burns is not worth being set-up bait for, and volt-switch is often soft as shite.

Dragonite has some nice bulk and gets good set up opportunities but I wouldn't say it does better than Gyarados. The 4x ice weakness is horrible, and it's speed tier is poor. Gyarados gets the set up opportunities whilst being less likely to get revenged in the process.

Personally, I'd move Gyarados up to A, leave Dragonite at A and drop Rotom-W to A-. Either way, though, I don't think Gyarados should be lower than the other two.
 
Rotom-W is at A because of what it does well, and that's provide momentum and also as a birdspam check. With Scarf it loses these traits and becomes even less useful, which is generally not even a good set in true practice anyways. Most of the points you pointed out are irrelevant because once you reveal the scarf, which is pretty obvious on something like Rotom-W, it's nice and easy to take advantage of. Stick to bulky variants my friend, it'll be more worthwhile in the long run.
Yes, when you use this set Rotom loses its status as a birdspam check, it then becomes a hard counter.
In all seriousness however, I am legitimately curious as to how Rotom loses it's ability to check birdspam.
The set is not designed to provide momentum, it is good because of the ridiculous amount of pokemon that it beats, and coupling that with moderate bulk, it is able to beat every pokemon mentioned on the prior list, some of which you see all the damn time *cough* Greninja *cough*

It can do all that? S rank surely
This guy gets it
 
My last post on Mega Aggron, it can drop to C, but only because the Tank set belongs there. The RestTalk phazing stuff is less reliable, and a three attack set is the most viable. Rhyperior can stop VoltTurners, that is true. However, Mega Aggron has other redeeming qualities over Rhyperior. With Ice Punch, it becomes one of the safest answers to Gliscor because Ice Punch can 2HKO, Earthquake does little back, and Aggron's immune to Toxic. Gliscor is a big headache for bulky offense (the only place Mega Aggron should be used btw) because Toxic wears down the bulky part rather quickly. That's it for that, I've made all my points.

Also, I tried out the Mega Houndoom set Vertex suggested (Fire Blast, Dark Pulse, Taunt, NP), and it's really effective. It can stallbreak really easily, the STABs have decent enough coverage, and it's got an outstanding speed tier. It even has enough bulk to survive a Conk Mach Punch, an Azu Aqua Jet and a +2 Mega Pinsir Quick Attack, which I really didn't expect. It's also surprising how well it stacks up against Chansey and how many things Fire Blast just powers through at +2 (especially if you can grab a Flash Fire boost before). Dark and Fire come with useful resistances as well. Try it out if you haven't used it, Houndoom may be worthy of C+ or higher.

When it comes to Rotom-W, I think it's fine where it is. It's typing is great and Levitate is great support. Also, WoW scares off most things that resist it's STAB combo. On the flip side, it's HP is low and it lacks reliable recovery outside of Lefties, meaning it can be worn down easily. TrickScarf can be effective, but after you Trick the Scarf it can become deadweight very quickly. Sometimes crafty players can try to get ahead of Trick Scarf and give Rotom-W an Eviolite, Choice Band, or Toxic Orb in return. Overall I think it's fine where it is, it has just enough drawbacks to keep it where it is imo.
 

Albacore

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I actually think Rotom-W deserves to stay in A. I know I've wanted it to drop before, but I've since realized it's actually pretty good in this metagame. The thing is, though Rotom-W's not directly threatening at all to most teams, has solid counters and all that, what it does do rather well is act as a slow pivot, letting more threatening stuff come in for free. You may not be threatened by Rotom-W, but you are probably threatened by the Mega Heracross that arrived on the field entirely thanks to Rotom-W. It's a support Pokemon first and foremost. Yeah, it does get worn down and that's it's by far it's greatest flaw, but it you can keep rocks off it has the potential to stay alive for quite a while, and can actually be the one that wears your opponent down. I've seriously managed to lose a full health Celebi to a Rotom-W once, simply by the sheer power of Volt Switch spamming.
It also kinda benefits from the fact that the metagame right now is kinda centered around really powerful but somewhat frail monsters with the ability to threaten entire teams, which Rotom-W, much like Landorus-T, fits into very well by being a vehicle by which said Pokemon can find opportunities to wreck teams more easily. It also kinda helps that a lot of Greninja have dropped HP Grass and even Extrasensory which means Rotom-W switches into it a lot more easily. Just a small detail, but still another thing that's currently going in Rotom-W's favor.

Not even going to address Scarf Rotom-W since that set is at best subpar and at worst outright bad, for reasons that have already been pointed out.
 
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Finally, of course Specs Keldeo is easier to play around, there are a ton of great initial switch-ins to Keldeo, definitely more than Landorus has. Latias, Latios, Amoonguss, Slowbro, Mega Venusaur, Alomomola, Starmie, Tornadus-T, Suicune, SpD Gyarados, and Celebi are all great initial responses to Keldeo. The worst that can happen to those Pokemon is getting burned, which is definitely an issue, but not half as big as you make it seem. On the other hand, the Pokemon that can switch into a Landorus that hasn't revealed its set safely are SpD Talonflame if SR is not up, SpD Gyarados, Mandibuzz if SR is not up, Tornadus-T, physically defensive Celebi, and Cresselia. I have excluded Pokemon such as SpD Gliscor because HP Ice screws it over, so you have to scout for it. And even though some of the Pokemon i mentioned for Keldeo can be 2HKOed by the appropriate move, such as Latios and Latias by Icy Wind, this doesn't change the fact that you got to scout Keldeo's set without losing a Pokemon and the opponent is now locked into Icy Wind, an obvious disadvantage. On the other hand, Landorus can pose a threat no matter what until the opponent scouts for the whole set or has a hard counter, making it much harder to play around than Keldeo.
You're still looking at the game from a pre-aegislash ban perspective.

On the top of the ladder there hardly is any stall or even defensive play, meanwhile hyper offense is by far the most consistent winning strategy right now.
In such a metagame getting countered by a few dozen pokemon isn't nearly as bad as you may think it is, otherwise having 7 more base speed as well as having the ability to spam STAB attacks with guaranteed damage is worth gold.

Keldeo and Landorus share 2 characteristics, they are both too slow to sweep teams prior to the lategame and are difficult to bring in safely. As such you definitely want this one turn where they can attack to count. Here is where Landorus struggles, while Keldeo is guaranteed to heavely damage pretty much any switch in with a Water attack even when resisted, Landorus requires prediction where the wrong move(Earth power against flying switch, Sludge bomb against steel...) may render it complete deadweight.

Therefore Landorus may still be the perfect S-rank pokemon on paper, in reality this pokemon isn't nearly as common on the top of the ladder as the other S-ranked pokemon or even A ranked pokemon like Pinsir.
 
I've been laddering with rain and imo it's just disgusting how underrated rain is.

I'd like to nominate Kingdra for A-, it's easily the best swift swimmer and should be ranked higher then Kabutops. The Specs set just destroys any hyper offensive team with Hydro Pump/Scald. It's excellent bulk lets it switch in easily on a lot of mons and get a kill (Mega Manectric, Heatran, Greninja, Rotom-W, Keldeo, Landorus-T etc.). There's just no way Kabutops is better then Kingdra. You have to sack something to bring it into play, it has more trouble getting past it's counters (Slowbro, Mega venusaur, Ferrothorn) and gets outsped by Scarf Latios and Keldeo). Kingdra can easily break through Ferrothorn and Azumarill with Scald spam.

Politoed to A-. It's the most important member of a rain team and should never be ranked lower then any rain sweeper.

Omastar should move to B+. It's FAR more threating then Kabutops, as Specs Hydro Pump can 2hko everything in rain (Chansey gets 2hko'ed after knock off). It's also an excellent flying spam check and has better bulk then Kabutops.

Kabutops should drop to B. This thing is so overrated (the best swift swimmer lmao). Physical water attacks < special water attacks. It's biggest problem is that it can't get past Ferrothorn, Slowbro and Venusaur and you have to sack something to bring it into play.
 
I've been laddering with rain and imo it's just disgusting how underrated rain is.

I'd like to nominate Kingdra for A-, it's easily the best swift swimmer and should be ranked higher then Kabutops. The Specs set just destroys any hyper offensive team with Hydro Pump/Scald. It's excellent bulk lets it switch in easily on a lot of mons and get a kill (Mega Manectric, Heatran, Greninja, Rotom-W, Keldeo, Landorus-T etc.). There's just no way Kabutops is better then Kingdra. You have to sack something to bring it into play, it has more trouble getting past it's counters (Slowbro, Mega venusaur, Ferrothorn) and gets outsped by Scarf Latios and Keldeo). Kingdra can easily break through Ferrothorn and Azumarill with Scald spam.

Politoed to A-. It's the most important member of a rain team and should never be ranked lower then any rain sweeper.

Omastar should move to B+. It's FAR more threating then Kabutops, as Specs Hydro Pump can 2hko everything in rain (Chansey gets 2hko'ed after knock off). It's also an excellent flying spam check and has better bulk then Kabutops.

Kabutops should drop to B. This thing is so overrated (the best swift swimmer lmao). Physical water attacks < special water attacks. It's biggest problem is that it can't get past Ferrothorn, Slowbro and Venusaur and you have to sack something to bring it into play.
Idk low kick and super power seem viable options as to how beat Ferrous after a SD boost. I mean I really can't say if kabutops is the best or isn't but him not being able to get past ferrous seems a bit off.
 
Idk low kick and super power seem viable options as to how beat Ferrous after a SD boost. I mean I really can't say if kabutops is the best or isn't but him not being able to get past ferrous seems a bit off.
Kabutops can run a fighting move to get past ferro but it pretty much needs to run aqua jet to be able to switch into talonflame and beat it, because it gets 2hko'ed by brave bird after rocks.
 
I've been laddering with rain and imo it's just disgusting how underrated rain is.

I'd like to nominate Kingdra for A-, it's easily the best swift swimmer and should be ranked higher then Kabutops. The Specs set just destroys any hyper offensive team with Hydro Pump/Scald. It's excellent bulk lets it switch in easily on a lot of mons and get a kill (Mega Manectric, Heatran, Greninja, Rotom-W, Keldeo, Landorus-T etc.). There's just no way Kabutops is better then Kingdra. You have to sack something to bring it into play, it has more trouble getting past it's counters (Slowbro, Mega venusaur, Ferrothorn) and gets outsped by Scarf Latios and Keldeo). Kingdra can easily break through Ferrothorn and Azumarill with Scald spam.

Politoed to A-. It's the most important member of a rain team and should never be ranked lower then any rain sweeper.

Omastar should move to B+. It's FAR more threating then Kabutops, as Specs Hydro Pump can 2hko everything in rain (Chansey gets 2hko'ed after knock off). It's also an excellent flying spam check and has better bulk then Kabutops.

Kabutops should drop to B. This thing is so overrated (the best swift swimmer lmao). Physical water attacks < special water attacks. It's biggest problem is that it can't get past Ferrothorn, Slowbro and Venusaur and you have to sack something to bring it into play.
Out of what you said I can see Politoed in A- and maybe Kingdra in B+ (but probably not). I play rain a lot too and Kabutops is certainly the best swift swimmer for many reasons. On paper, Kingdra may seem better because of the higher base power of special water type moves, however, this isnt necessarily true in practice, besides the fact that hydro pump misses 20% of the time. Kabutops resists flying, meaning it cant be revenged by a Talonflame Brave Bird. It also resists ExtremeSpeed, which is the second most powerful (common) priority in ou coming off of a cb dragonite. Secondly, it has aqua jet, meaning it can around other annyoing priority it doesnt resist including a T-Wave from Thundurus. Finally, it has Swords Dance meaning that it can effectively sweep teams, which is huge. Kabutops also has a powerful secondary stab that doesnt lower its attacj and provides good neutral coverage, Azumarill and Mega Venusaur wont be happy switching in. It can also choose to run Low Kick over something if Ferrothorn is a problem, though magnezone is a thing.
 
Out of what you said I can see Politoed in A- and maybe Kingdra in B+ (but probably not). I play rain a lot too and Kabutops is certainly the best swift swimmer for many reasons. On paper, Kingdra may seem better because of the higher base power of special water type moves, however, this isnt necessarily true in practice, besides the fact that hydro pump misses 20% of the time. Kabutops resists flying, meaning it cant be revenged by a Talonflame Brave Bird. It also resists ExtremeSpeed, which is the second most powerful (common) priority in ou coming off of a cb dragonite. Secondly, it has aqua jet, meaning it can around other annyoing priority it doesnt resist including a T-Wave from Thundurus. Finally, it has Swords Dance meaning that it can effectively sweep teams, which is huge. Kabutops also has a powerful secondary stab that doesnt lower its attacj and provides good neutral coverage, Azumarill and Mega Venusaur wont be happy switching in. It can also choose to run Low Kick over something if Ferrothorn is a problem, though magnezone is a thing.
The thing is that it's extremely hard for Kabutops to set up as almost any attack ohko's it. Not to mention that every defensive team has a mon to take on +2 Kabu (Slowbro, Venusaur and Ferrothorn). Kingdra can hit hard right of the bat (it 2hko's and outspeeds everything on offensive teams after rocks with scald besides AZU (lol scald burns)) and is much harder to wall then Kabutops. Thundy can still t-wave Kabu unless it's at +2.
 
Charizard-Mega-Y to A This thing is really not that good in this current metagame. It doesn't have enough speed to be good against offense and can't beat stall due to having to rely on 5 turns of sun for high damage output. And plus it takes up a mega slot which is very valuable on teams and most of the time not worth to use on a mon like zard y. The only way it can really function effectively is if you build a whole team around it, so you can't use the element of surprise very much and disguise it as zard x. This thing is really not that good, and is definitively A material if not lower.
 
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