Metagame ORAS/XY PU (Serperior Banned)

[Geopolitics]

Ok so while I’m relatively new to PU as a tier (and have had limited time to learn the tier due to school) it’s not hard to see that Musharna is a centralizing force in the metagame. I’m nearing the Top 500 on the ladder now, so I’m not necessarily a bad player, I just need some more time to learn the tier. But let’s skip the justification process for now and get into some arguments n stuff

1. Is Musharna overcentralizing? Are you forced to dedicate at least 2 team slots to handle it?

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Absolutely. Musharna’s ability to take any hit in their tier is nothing short of amazing. Even Sneasel has trouble and can be Life Orb stalled if the user of Musharna is competent. I’ve been running Specs Yanma and SD Honedge to deal with Musharna (both of which deal with it quite well, I might add). However, it’s a fact that Musharna centralizes the meta to the point where every team autoloses to Musharna if there aren’t multiple counters/offensive checks to it on a team.

2. What checks and counters does Musharna have? Are there ways for all styles of teams to handle it? Do they limit teambuilding too much just for Musharna?

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Musharna is pretty much limited to offensive checks which inherently limits teambuilding. While it is sometimes OK for a mon to have no checks (such as Hydreigon in BW2) something like Musharna centralizes the meta too far. There aren’t any ways for a style of play to beat all the sets. Sure, this can be seen as me trying to stretch Musharna’s power, but if you’ve tried it, it’s ridiculous. Offense/Stall has trouble with CM, Balance/Stall struggle to find answers to CM+Pass, and hell, I’ve even seen some Specs sets tear apart games. Musharna limits teambuilding because it forces teams to run multiple counters because of the diversity of the sets. Musharna’s movepool can utilize multiple options to tear apart any style that the rest of the team struggles with. For example, if I build a Sticky Web team that struggles with stall, then I can just slap a Musharna on and call it a day because the correct Musharna set dismantles stall. This is just one example of how centralizing Musharna is, and I look forward to playing in a metagame without Musharna.

 

[Ary]

I feel the obligation to post here:

I dont think musharna is that over centralising, nothing in the pu tier is imo (doesnt make it less broken). It doesn't make any pokemon less viable by its presence. Im not talking about direct outclasses, more like how aegislash made mega medicham worse as an example.

Offensive teams can check it with pokemon such as scyther and sneasel and defensive teams have stuff like roar and toxic (still have to be careful of heal bell/last mon). This is a lot easier 'said than done' as offensive teams need a way to directly threaten it as they cannot defeat mush by taking advantage of how passive it is. It sucks for defensive teams having to stall it out too, which is not an easy job. I cannot disagree in saying that there aren't enough ways to stop it, but you still have to remember it isnt impossible to beat. People here act like it can set up and sweep without a problem but you also have to look past the 'sneasel is the only way to check it and that gets stopped by thunder wave' and start looking at different pokes that take advantage of mush; such as Swoobat or Klang. Im not going to properly explain swoobat, but if you play well you get boosts up and have the ability to sweep. Klang is a much better example, it can switch into literally anything and just start setting up shift gears. Rest talk makes thunder wave redundant and the mush user is forced to switch into something that isnt set up fodder. Typical musharna teams also tend to be passive, which is what klang likes to face. Klang is also a pretty good poke otherwise, can fit well into different playstyles, uses a lot of walls as set up fodder (eg clear smog garbage, roselia, licky) and is only properly countered by altaria. Also stuff like taunt nasty plot missy are fun
Im not going to write any huge paragraphs on ways to beat musharna, but people need to realise how it is stoppable. I know there have always been complaints about musharna, but it seems suspect tests just make pokemon more broken (as in peoples views)

Currently i do agree that mush needs to go, but the point of a suspect test not only to vote to ban, but to also show pro ban people how it isn't broken, and anti-ban people how it is broken. If a pokemon where flat-out 100%broken then there would not be a suspect, but a quick ban.

Pretty much this, I honestly don't have much trouble with mush because i enjoy slapping bastiodon/misdreavus onto every team i make ever just because of how nice they are utility and bulk wise, but I can understand why people want it dead. I don't think having to bring a mon to check/counter a threat is ever an unhealthy thing , it's just y'know... how teambuilding works . Mush definitely isn't broken over overcentralizing to the point where everything revolves around it ex. aegis ou where mons simply became unviable because it existed. Mush isn't this omnipresent force that controls the tier, it's just a mon that can fulfill many roles and just be the glue that many teams need. It fills the roles of a pivot, wall and bulky cm sweeper and it fills them all ridiculously well. To the point where it's one of the best in the tier at all of these different roles, it's unpredictability is what makes it the most threatening imo, but it has enough stops/checks defensive and offensive otherwise. If you need to put a scyther/bastiodon/missy on your team to cover up a weakness you have to a common mon in the tier that isn't overcentralization that's just not being shit at teambuilding. I just feel like overcentralization is a buzzword thrown around by people who want something to die just because, or because other people want it to. Honestly there are too many smogon buzzwords in general.

I think considering a ban is a good idea, and a nice way to move the tier forwards, and mush is a very easy target but there are other potent defensive and offensive threats that deserve a look as well. And I feel that in general the tier is pretty much a clusterfuck as is. I mean all you have to do to recognize that is to look at the current viability rankings.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

This post won't answer WDM's questions yet, but I would like to point out how easy it is to slap Musharna on to a team. Basically every playstyle bar HO can benefit from it: offense loves the pivot support, stall likes the bulk and typing as well as a wincon, and balanced appreciate a solid backbone as well. Musharna provides all of a Fighting-type counter, a pivot, a switch-in to dangerous physical attackers like Tauros and Purugly, and depending on which options you choose for its moveslots, a win condition, paralysis support, or cleric support. It's a Pokemon that provides a lot of utility at little cost.

I agree with some of the posters above me that Musharna probably isn't overcentralizing. Whether or not it is broken, though, is another question, and I think it probably is: it's not good when you can't switch your "Musharna counter" in and risk getting paralyzed or losing momentum, which is the case for bulky stuff like Klang for the latter.

 

[WildHope]

I feel the obligation to post here:

I dont think musharna is that over centralising, nothing in the pu tier is imo (doesnt make it less broken). It doesn't make any pokemon less viable by its presence. Im not talking about direct outclasses, more like how aegislash made mega medicham worse as an example.

Offensive teams can check it with pokemon such as scyther and sneasel and defensive teams have stuff like roar and toxic (still have to be careful of heal bell/last mon). This is a lot easier 'said than done' as offensive teams need a way to directly threaten it as they cannot defeat mush by taking advantage of how passive it is. It sucks for defensive teams having to stall it out too, which is not an easy job. I cannot disagree in saying that there aren't enough ways to stop it, but you still have to remember it isnt impossible to beat. People here act like it can set up and sweep without a problem but you also have to look past the 'sneasel is the only way to check it and that gets stopped by thunder wave' and start looking at different pokes that take advantage of mush; such as Swoobat or Klang. Im not going to properly explain swoobat, but if you play well you get boosts up and have the ability to sweep. Klang is a much better example, it can switch into literally anything and just start setting up shift gears. Rest talk makes thunder wave redundant and the mush user is forced to switch into something that isnt set up fodder. Typical musharna teams also tend to be passive, which is what klang likes to face. Klang is also a pretty good poke otherwise, can fit well into different playstyles, uses a lot of walls as set up fodder (eg clear smog garbage, roselia, licky) and is only properly countered by altaria. Also stuff like taunt nasty plot missy are fun
Im not going to write any huge paragraphs on ways to beat musharna, but people need to realise how it is stoppable. I know there have always been complaints about musharna, but it seems suspect tests just make pokemon more broken (as in peoples views)

Currently i do agree that mush needs to go, but the point of a suspect test not only to vote to ban, but to also show pro ban people how it isn't broken, and anti-ban people how it is broken. If a pokemon where flat-out 100%broken then there would not be a suspect, but a quick ban.

Dude, the problem with TW isnt just sneasel, but is a problem for swoobat too. And he cannot take that much advantage from musha, because CM Musha can run Psyshock or just pass to something like LO Raichu or Electrode. Klang is nice, but him doesnt fit in every team, him cannot set up in Licky cause Knock off, or garbodor cause Rocky helm+afthermath (people runs that for sneasel, and is a good set), rose can sleep pow you (and most teams with rose have at least one phazer), and rest talk is more bad than good.
I mean, there arent many ways to make a good anti-ban post anyway, because how bad or situational can be her checks (most of them are weak to SR or can be killed by her more common parnet, sneasel), when musha see a sneasel/Scyther she use TW, if she see a Misdre she is going to pass (she can survive a LO SB and send something like snes who can pursuit you or spam Knock Off, musha-sneasel is the more common offensive core and thats make ), Swoobat need huge support, and you need a boost to work giving a free turn, and the musha player only need to click BP.


Musha wasnt considered broken this much until some weeks ago or even less, and people dont even say something about it in the forum, but now, after much research, we find it broken.

Pretty much this, I honestly don't have much trouble with mush because i enjoy slapping bastiodon/misdreavus onto every team i make ever just because of how nice they are utility and bulk wise, but I can understand why people want it dead. I don't think having to bring a mon to check/counter a threat is ever an unhealthy thing , it's just y'know... how teambuilding works . Mush definitely isn't broken over overcentralizing to the point where everything revolves around it ex. aegis ou where mons simply became unviable because it existed. Mush isn't this omnipresent force that controls the tier, it's just a mon that can fulfill many roles and just be the glue that many teams need. It fills the roles of a pivot, wall and bulky cm sweeper and it fills them all ridiculously well. To the point where it's one of the best in the tier at all of these different roles, it's unpredictability is what makes it the most threatening imo, but it has enough stops/checks defensive and offensive otherwise. If you need to put a scyther/bastiodon/missy on your team to cover up a weakness you have to a common mon in the tier that isn't overcentralization that's just not being shit at teambuilding. I just feel like overcentralization is a buzzword thrown around by people who want something to die just because, or because other people want it to. Honestly there are too many smogon buzzwords in general.

I think considering a ban is a good idea, and a nice way to move the tier forwards, and mush is a very easy target but there are other potent defensive and offensive threats that deserve a look as well. And I feel that in general the tier is pretty much a clusterfuck as is. I mean all you have to do to recognize that is to look at the current viability rankings.

Misdre/bast/scy cannot control musha that easy, for example bastiodon can be killed by one of the many mons that can use him as a set up fodder or just a Trapinch.
I dont know enough stops/checks for defensive and offensive teams than arent countered by a common coverage move/parnet (because, thanks to BP you dont even need to predict and make a double switch, just throw the correct counter and make him run).

And i dont find any other possible suspect to be honest, even sneasel, because him is going to be even more easly to handle without musha giving free switch thanks to BP and a easly way to kill Poli and Throh.

 

[Rennyjesus]

Well... i'm also kinda new to PU but I used my whole weekend playing it, of course, using Musharna in my teams, which leads me to answer the two critical questions here...

1. Is Musharna overcentralizing? Are you forced to dedicate at least 2 team slots to handle it?
I would say yes... But not as much as we have been told...

Musharna does really have a lot of tools to make some teams really miserable, but even if you don't plan a lot your team, you will probably end with something that can do the job against her. And you know why? just because even if Musharna have the natural tools, IT JUST CAN'T USE ALL OF THEM AT THE SAME TIME... some people have been talking about Musharna like it does have 8 or 9 moves at disposal anytime and that's far from accurate... Actually a lot of Musharnas that i've been seeing, doesn't even have Heal Bell or a Coverage move, which means that a simple 4MMS can get the best of it... Also, some of the best Pokés in the tier are pretty strong by themselves and also can deal with Musharna more or less effectively... so, i don't think that many teams just get some pokés ONLY as an answer to Musharna...

If we take some things in this thread, we should also be suspecting of Sneasel, because it does have tools to cripple a lot of the tier and doesn't have A LOT of checks/counters, and even them should be worried of taking a STAB Knock Off in the face and lose their items... right? (of course we already know that in the practice isn't that hard to deal with Sneasel)

That some teams really need an answer to Musharna? yes... but some others need answers for maybe Avalugg, maybe Roselia, maybe Poliwrath... and i'm not exactly seeing any ban intentions over them...

2. What checks and counters does Musharna have? Are there ways for all styles of teams to handle it? Do they limit teambuilding too much just for Musharna? This is kinda harder to answer, because again, it will depend on which moves Musharna runs...
Almost any Musharna runs Moonlight and a Psychic move (Psychic or Psyshock), and the variety can be found in those extra two moves between:
* Thunder Wave: If Musharna run this, it will rarely run another Status move which means, Calm Mind or a coverage move are the real options, Which means that Ursaring, Gourgeist, Klang and Bastiodon can Check/Counter Musharna, while Sneasel, Mightyena, Vullaby and Krokorok can deal with it if it does have Calm Mind.

* Heal Bell: This means that you can't Toxic or Burn it since it would laugh in your face, but also means that it will probably be setup fodder for your Dark Type, Because of Calm Mind only giving Musharna one Attacking move or just not being powerful enough to beat those quickly. An example:
0 SpA Musharna Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Sneasel: 104-124 (41.4 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 408-482 (93.5 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

* Toxic: This move isn't used that Frequently, but it can help Musharna to get past some annoyances like Gourgeist, leaving it again prone to be kinda setup fodder for Dark Types.

* Calm Mind: Usually this move goes with BP, which means that your Dark Type can also get some setup, and even ; or a coverage move that is actually the worst set to face IMO. Of course, both of them can be beaten with relative ease using Taunt and/or Toxic Spikes-Toxic.

* Yawn: Now Musharna avoid being Setup Fodder at expense of having almost no coverage against Dark Types, but actually the BP+Yawn+Psychic+CM it's very dangerous.

IMO i would say that even if switching in for them is hard, Musharna can be Checked by:
Ursaring, Eviolite Scyther, Eviolite Sneasel, Bastiodon, Gourgeist, Mightyena, Rampardos, Rotom F (because of Trick and Pain Split), Defiant Purugly, Bouffalant, some variations of Serperior, Guts or Banded Flareon, SD Leavanny, and Banded Stoutland (Which can just try to get Defense Drops while Musharna keeps recovering). Also, Taunt users like Glalie and Kricketune can be pretty annoying for Musharna...

Those are which I can remember right now, which aren't exactly scarce...

In the end, Musharna is a really huge Threat in PU metagame but i'm not sure if it's that painful to deal with that it should be banned right now...

Cya!

 

[Honus]

I haven't played this tier a lot but I do not find this thing broken. It really isn't too different from Reuniclus in BW1 OU which the metagame adapted to, Clefable is similar now as well. Honestly I think you just need something that can force musharna out. As the above post shows with 0 SpA Musharna Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Sneasel: 104-124 (41.4 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO, scouting it is possible, and once you know the set you know how to attack it. Musharna benefits from its versatility, but once you know the set you will know how to attack it. You 'beat' Musharna by actually winning the game. Force it out and use the successive turns to weaken the counters to your win condition and just set it up or let it loose. Musharna's bulk is pretty overstated; 252 SpA Life Orb Frogadier Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Musharna: 179-212 (41 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery. I am not going to BS around and say that physical attackers beat it when mostly only dark types can, but using u-turn/vswitch moves, sr damage and status can add up. I mean, I can't think of many physical pokes that outright mash clefable without supereffective dmg. Moonlight also has 8 PP. I can see that 'get something to force it out' can be seen as Musharna being centralizing, but it is preparing for a major threat. It's not like the pokes that beat musharna are useless otherwise; sneasel itself is an s-rank poke. I think the hazard-centricity needs to be adressed more than thiss

 

[Ary]

Dude, the problem with TW isnt just sneasel, but is a problem for swoobat too. And he cannot take that much advantage from musha, because CM Musha can run Psyshock or just pass to something like LO Raichu or Electrode. Klang is nice, but him doesnt fit in every team, him cannot set up in Licky cause Knock off, or garbodor cause Rocky helm+afthermath (people runs that for sneasel, and is a good set), rose can sleep pow you (and most teams with rose have at least one phazer), and rest talk is more bad than good.
I mean, there arent many ways to make a good anti-ban post anyway, because how bad or situational can be her checks (most of them are weak to SR or can be killed by her more common parnet, sneasel), when musha see a sneasel/Scyther she use TW, if she see a Misdre she is going to pass (she can survive a LO SB and send something like snes who can pursuit you or spam Knock Off, musha-sneasel is the more common offensive core and thats make ), Swoobat need huge support, and you need a boost to work giving a free turn, and the musha player only need to click BP.


Musha wasnt considered broken this much until some weeks ago or even less, and people dont even say something about it in the forum, but now, after much research, we find it broken.


Misdre/bast/scy cannot control musha that easy, for example bastiodon can be killed by one of the many mons that can use him as a set up fodder or just a Trapinch.
I dont know enough stops/checks for defensive and offensive teams than arent countered by a common coverage move/parnet (because, thanks to BP you dont even need to predict and make a double switch, just throw the correct counter and make him run).

And i dont find any other possible suspect to be honest, even sneasel, because him is going to be even more easly to handle without musha giving free switch thanks to BP and a easly way to kill Poli and Throh.

Trapinch is absolutely horrible btw, and bastiodon has no trouble with mush unless they're running taunt cmpass, which nobody does. Mush isn't this omnipresent uncounterable threat, you can easily whittle it down by abusing hazards and your offensive momentum mainly because most mush teams are passive in nature. And bastiodon is not set up fodder, just because a mon has no offensive presence doesn't mean that it has no tools, it learns roar. And not every mush set can run bp, it has so many moves and you can only pick 4. BP is usually only reserved for cm pass. Missy is faster gets taunt and sball, ofc it shuts down mush. Literally applying any sort of offensive pressure can render mush useless if you don't play like an idiot.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

Trapinch is absolutely horrible btw,

it isn't btw,

and bastiodon has no trouble with mush unless they're running taunt cmpass, which nobody does.

and this is why Bastiodon is a hard counter, not gonna disagree with this. However, the fact is that Bastiodon is rather easy to take advantage of by Musharna's teammates and has no place outside of stall, which is what WildHopes was driving at.

Mush isn't this omnipresent uncounterable threat, you can easily whittle it down by abusing hazards and your offensive momentum mainly because most mush teams are passive in nature.

I won't disagree that Musharna can be whittled down easily with multiple entry hazards, however, I cannot agree with the second part. It is very easy for Musharna to gain a lot of momentum with a slow Baton Pass, and it is impossible to gain momentum by double switching against a BP Mush. In addition, Musharna teams are not always passive; it fits very well on offense in fact, because it provides a ton of support: solid pivot and physical wall, cleric, momentum gainer, paralysis support, win condition are some of the roles it can provide. I use Musharna on offense myself, in no way does it only fit on passive teams.

And not every mush set can run bp, it has so many moves and you can only pick 4. BP is usually only reserved for cm pass. Missy is faster gets taunt and sball, ofc it shuts down mush. Literally applying any sort of offensive pressure can render mush useless if you don't play like an idiot.

BP is a great move even outside of CM Pass. Dry passing is a great way to shift momentum and prevent any double switching from occurring. It's true that Musharna has 4MSS, but if the 4MSS doesn't limit Musharna in any way, it's not a significant problem. Musharna doesn't become worse by sacrificing Thunder Wave for Heal Bell, for instance.

As for your last sentence in this quote, I would like to understand how literally any offensive pressure can defeat Musharna if you don't play like an idiot. Remember that the Musharna user can choose to not play like an idiot either and it can easily cripple a few Pokemon and keep itself at a healthy amount of HP.

It's definitely easier said than done because hazards and Moonlight's shitty PP can bite Musharna in the ass but it's usually still able to cripple or wall several Pokemon in a game.

 

[WildHope]

I haven't played this tier a lot but I do not find this thing broken. It really isn't too different from Reuniclus in BW1 OU which the metagame adapted to, Clefable is similar now as well. Honestly I think you just need something that can force musharna out. As the above post shows with 0 SpA Musharna Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Sneasel: 104-124 (41.4 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO, scouting it is possible, and once you know the set you know how to attack it. Musharna benefits from its versatility, but once you know the set you will know how to attack it. You 'beat' Musharna by actually winning the game. Force it out and use the successive turns to weaken the counters to your win condition and just set it up or let it loose. Musharna's bulk is pretty overstated; 252 SpA Life Orb Frogadier Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Musharna: 179-212 (41 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery. I am not going to BS around and say that physical attackers beat it when mostly only dark types can, but using u-turn/vswitch moves, sr damage and status can add up. I mean, I can't think of many physical pokes that outright mash clefable without supereffective dmg. Moonlight also has 8 PP. I can see that 'get something to force it out' can be seen as Musharna being centralizing, but it is preparing for a major threat. It's not like the pokes that beat musharna are useless otherwise; sneasel itself is an s-rank poke. I think the hazard-centricity needs to be adressed more than thiss

Dazzling Gleam musha is bad, Scraggy is rare and Zwe is bad, if you want something for Dark-types you run HP Fight, and even then, TW is more common and is enough for Sneasel and even Frogadier in most cases. And musha can survive a Knock Off from sneasel and cure herself without problems. She can also survive Dark Pulse from LO Froga, Shadow Ball from LO Haunter and Bug Bite from CB Scyther, she only need TW for them.
In this tier is hard to fond Volt swich cores other than Scyther and a Electric-type, and they are hard to use agaisnt Musha because how easly she can boost in most electrics and only need SR support for Scyther.
Moonlight doesnt have much PP, but is more than enough for most battles, when i was using Musha i always end with 2-4 PP left.

And Musha isnt like Clefa or Reuni, they have more realiable counters and checks, are more easly to force out and revenge kill. Musha doesnt have many checks, and need little to no support to kill them anyway, i mean, you can even OHKO scyther and Sneasel after SR if you can keep Musha enought healty, because she can survive a super effective STAB move from mons of the S and A rank even after some prior damage. And you dont even need to do that, most of the time he only work is to give huge support, gaining momentum and free swith to things like Sneasel or some CM boost to a random special attacker. She isnt broken because she can sweep complete team by herself like MKangas or MLuke, she is broken because the huge support that she can give like Deoxys-D, that support not only make broken others mons, but also is easy to perform and dont need much brain.

 

[The Leprechaun]

At the moment I'm slightly on the fence with musharna, leaning towards ban. Its bulk, ability to pass boosts easily and ability to sweep late game have been cited as the main reasons for suspect test. All these traits however are pretty simple to check in one way or another and it shouldn't be hard to fit one or two checks to musharna on any playstyle without even having to consider it. However, its ability to pivot so easily, with no prediction needed, through the use of baton pass is truly what makes it banworthy for me. I would say that there are a lot of top tier mons that check musharna at the moment and i'll do my best to list them below at the end of this post.

The problem arises when you realise that unless a mon is a check to musharna, it's probably going to be set-up fodder. For example, a hyper offence team may have a sneasel and a kadabra with encore which both deal with musharna very well but once these mons go down, many standard ho mons like golem, dodrio, garbodor, purugly and a number of others straight up lose unless they manage to hax the opposing musharna to a great extent. The fact that musharna can just baton pass when checks are still on the field makes it an incredible lure. When you consider that the ease at which mushy can calm mind and pass safely in just 2 turns, you have to acknowledge that unless you send in your check immediately, you can very quickly get rolled. This only makes it easier to pick off potential checks very quickly and proceed to sweep or set up another mons sweep afterwards.

Although the cm pass set is probably the reason it needs to go, the fact that it has a fair few options outside of baton only makes it more of a threat. It can get past tspikes, normally a decent check, by running heal bell over baton pass. This allows it to beat most mons that use toxic as a way to check it thanks to its ability synchronise which will instead put pressure on the opposing mon. Signal beam is an option for beating dark types and other psychic types. Thunder wave, toxic, yawn are all options which work on a very viable, non-cm set. If you want to always win cm wars you could even use imprison.

To conclude, I'd say that even though musharna loses to many top tier mons 1v1, its ability to set-up on the vast majority of the tier 1v1 means makes it s-rank. Its ability to pass boosts easily makes it suspect worthy. But its ability to lure in checks only to baton pass out to let its team mates aid it makes it ban worthy.


Here's a list of checks I came up with.

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Trick+Scarf/Band/(specs) - Probably the most effective way to check mushy, crippling it for the whole game. However, one time use and should not be relied upon to always do the job.
Floatzel, Mr Mime, Rotom-f, Haunter

Taunt - Shuts mushy down at the start of a sweep, good luck if its already got a cm boost or two tho.
Misdreavus, Bastiodon, Kricketune, Mightyena, Mr. Mime, Serperior,

Encore - Really really effective way of stopping a musharna sweep, especially considering how slow musharna is.
Kadabra, Chatot, Illumise, Jumpluff, Mr. Mime, Poliwrath, Raichu, Victreebel, Volbeat

Haze - Haze has more pp than calm mind. enough said
Articuno, Wartortle

Roar - Good for stopping mushy before a set-up. Useless if mushy is the last mon.
Piloswine, Bastiodon, Camerupt, Flareon, Torterra

Perish song - Instant stop to any musharna sweep. Perish song gets passed as well so no chance in aiding another mon sweep either.
Misdreavus

Tspikes - Most musharnas aren't running heal bell right now and even if they do, facing poison every switch in is a pain and severly limits set-up. T-spikes offer a synchronise-less poison. Toxic can also be considered here but if it has heal bell, mushy will often win.
Garbodor, Roselia, Koffing, Dwebble, Omanyte

Flareon
252+ Atk Choice Band Flareon Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 258-304 (59.1 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Haunter
252 SpA Life Orb Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Musharna: 328-385 (75.2 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Scyther
252 Atk Choice Band Technician Scyther Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 314-372 (72 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Sneasel
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 265-315 (60.7 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Mightyena
252+ Atk Life Orb Mightyena Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 234-276 (53.6 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Marowak
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 268-316 (61.4 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Bouffalant
252+ Atk Choice Band Bouffalant Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 306-362 (70.1 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Ursaring
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 301-355 (69 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

There are far too many special attackers to mention but they are too shaky as checks because of calm mind.

There are probably a few i've missed but w/e. My point is, it can be checked and that there are a fair few checks out there. In no way is this mon overly centralising and there are numerous ways to check it.

 

[Anty]

Dude, the problem with TW isnt just sneasel, but is a problem for swoobat too sub is standard on swoobat, and a lot of mush try to para it. And he cannot take that much advantage from musha, because CM Musha can run Psyshock that isnt common as psychic tends to be used as it is stronger (they both have perks, but psychic actually hits a poke for a significant amount more damage; avalugg) or just pass to something like LO Raichu or Electrode you get a free sub, vs raichu you calm mind as he breaks sub and then you can keep sub'ing till salac. Klang is nice, but him doesnt fit in every team it fits into both defensive and offensive, him cannot set up in Licky cause Knock off you get 2 boosts in that case 1. on knock off, 2. on switch out, or garbodor cause Rocky helm+afthermath (people runs that for sneasel, and is a good set) it wont kill klang and vs garb you can get to +6 in the meantime, rose can sleep pow you (and most teams with rose have at least one phazer), and rest talk is more bad than good rest talk is standard on it....
I mean, there arent many ways to make a good anti-ban post anyway, because how bad or situational can be her checks (most of them are weak to SR or can be killed by her more common parnet, sneasel), when musha see a sneasel/Scyther she use TW, if she see a Misdre she is going to pass (she can survive a LO SB and send something like snes who can pursuit you or spam Knock Off, musha-sneasel is the more common offensive core and thats make ), Swoobat need huge support (not much to do with mush but: defog support is not much, esp when a lot of pokes need it, also a lot of mons need checks defeated before sweep, eg sneasel vs poliwrath), and you need a boost to work giving a free turn, and the musha player only need to click BP. My post was saying how others where over reacting. Yes mush is arguably broken, but there are still answers


Musha wasnt considered broken this much until some weeks ago or even less The meta hasnt really changed since the last jobs, and people dont even say something about it in the forum yes, in the forum..., but now, after much research, we find it broken its being suspected not banned yet.

Replies in bold.

 

[WildHope]

sub is standard on swoobat, and a lot of mush try to para it i mean, you cannot switch Swoobat into musha because TW, and someone than know how Swoobat work would switch during you set up.that isnt common as psychic tends to be used as it is stronger (they both have perks, but psychic actually hits a poke for a significant amount more damage; avalugg) Psychock is better for CM Musha, is the most safer way to win a CM war (if we dont count crits), most Avas runs roar, set up on him is a bad idea. you get a free sub, vs raichu you calm mind as he breaks sub and then you can keep sub'ing till salac then you can be revenge killer by psychock musha, you cannot beat she with only one boost (is like 4HKO), obviously, this only apply to the CM pass set, but is the broken one anyway.it fits into both defensive and offensive Him is a set up sweeper with only one offensive move with bad coverage, and needs to run sleep talk, a strategy than can even give 2 free turns (if we dont count when you use rest) if you have bad luck. Most teams would rathen use SD Sneasel, and dont forget, if you use Mono attacker Klang, the you dont run Wild Charge and Poli can phaze you in any moment, then you dont run Sneasel or Costa, two of the best mons in the tier than needs parnets than can defeat Poli, or you are going to have a bad sinergy, in other words, Klang doesnt fit into every team. you get 2 boosts in that case 1. on knock off, 2. on switch out You dont need a item? i always thing than eviolite was a usefull item than you dont want to lose, we are talking about Rest Talk Klang, no Sub Klang.it wont kill klang and vs garb you can get to +6 in the meantime Drain Puch is pretty much standard, and thats is a 3HKO, you alwais end the battle against Garbo with heavy damage, and if you opponent let you use Shift Gear 6 times, is because him can revenge kill you easly after the damage form Rocky helment, afthermath and at least one Drain Punch. (not much to do with mush but: defog support is not much, esp when a lot of pokes need it, also a lot of mons need checks defeated before sweep, eg sneasel vs poliwrath) First than nothing, Sneasel only need musha as support for poli/throh/garbo or any other check,because him is one of many than only need Musha for most of her checks, meanwhile Swoobat need difefents checks for Piloswine, electric-types, Articuno/Regice, Golem, Sneasel, priority users, etc., Swoobat is a good mon, but is a bad idea to use a mon than is completely useless without a boost and need all of her checks gone to do something, him isnt like Scyther who can spam U-Trun even with Pelipper healthy, or Sneasel using Knock Off when Thorh isnt dead, and even Barbaracle who have good power even without a boost. My post was saying how others where over reacting. Yes mush is arguably broken, but there are still answers I know than we have answers, Klang and Swoobat arent the only ones, for example we can use CB Zwelious or Haze Dusclops, but their are bad in this meta, or we can try others like Scyther or Sneasel, but they need support to do their job of checking Musha; and dont forget TS (my favorite one) but TS user lose to Musha and can even give it some free CM boost, and we have many good counters of TS between Poison-Types mons and Defogers like Peli, Swanna, Toge and Mantine; and last Trick/Encore/Taunt users must be the easiest thing to predict in the game, and many of them dont like to take TW or Psychic anyway.
Even when they stop Musha, they can fail in the mission of prevent the huge support than musha can give or have to take the risk of get paralyzed (for Snes and Scy is like death).
its being suspected not banned yet Yes, but i talk about the part of the community than find it broken, and that is a big part, there arent many anti-ban post, at least for now.

The same here.

 

[Anty]

The same here.

I dont think you are getting what i am saying. Im talking about how there are different ways of beating mush with viable mons. If you look at klang vs mush, who is in a better position? CB zweilos isnt exactly a reliable answer, whilst dusclops isnt exactly bad (ive been trying curse dusclops, which in great for beating last poke sweepers such as mush and clefairy). Toxic spikes doesnt reliably beat it considering the difficulty in getting them up and keeping it + heal bell mush. Another good check is marowak, who can dodge a twave if necessary, do 60-70% with knock off then 2hko with eq/bonemerang (also tanks a psyshock much better than psychic. Im just trying to be open minding and show the people who think its ridiculously broken, how it is not.
And btw its the council who vote not the community

I could post reasons why mush is broken but i would just be repeating what every body else has said. The leprechaun has summed it up very well and I really agree with this point:

The problem arises when you realise that unless a mon is a check to musharna, it's probably going to be set-up fodder. For example, a hyper offence team may have a sneasel and a kadabra with encore which both deal with musharna very well but once these mons go down, many standard ho mons like golem, dodrio, garbodor, purugly and a number of others straight up lose unless they manage to hax the opposing musharna to a great extent. The fact that musharna can just baton pass when checks are still on the field makes it an incredible lure. When you consider that the ease at which mushy can calm mind and pass safely in just 2 turns, you have to acknowledge that unless you send in your check immediately, you can very quickly get rolled. This only makes it easier to pick off potential checks very quickly and proceed to sweep or set up another mons sweep afterwards.

This may be an odd comparison, but it can actually be compared to uu a couple months ago, when cm suicune and slowbro were all over the tier. The difference with them, is that there where a handful of mons which could do decent damage after boosts (not checks and counters - much less direct than scyther/sneasel). Common Pokes like victini or mienshao could 2hko them, which is just not the case with mush unless you have a SE STAB. Even rock climb tauros does max 44%, and that is our best wallbreaker, just note how mush psychic at +0 does more. Even bw2 had things like golurk, samurott and scolipede to deal heavy damage and mandibuzz to stick a middle finger up at it. Overall musharna is just unhealthy for the meta, being able to take advantage of plenty of mons whilst being able to sweep with little support

e: @below, the ridiculously broken part was not aimed at anyone imparticular, i just feel a lot of people think like that

 

[WildHope]

I dont think you are getting what i am saying. Im talking about how there are different ways of beating mush with viable mons. If you look at klang vs mush, who is in a better position? CB zweilos isnt exactly a reliable answer, whilst dusclops isnt exactly bad (ive been trying curse dusclops, which in great for beating last poke sweepers such as mush and clefairy). Toxic spikes doesnt reliably beat it considering the difficulty in getting them up and keeping it + heal bell mush. Another good check is marowak, who can dodge a twave if necessary, do 60-70% with knock off then 2hko with eq/bonemerang (also tanks a psyshock much better than psychic. Im just trying to be open minding and show the people who think its ridiculously broken, how it is not.
And btw its the council who vote not the community

I know how good is Klang against Musha, but i just dont think than him fit into every team. Marowak is a better example, you are right. And about TS, i guess we have the same opinion, they check it, but are hard to keep (that was basically my point).
I never saids that she is ridicolously broken (my first comment can loock like that, but was because i want to end this quickly), i only think that is enough broken for a ban (im sorry for not say it before).
And i think than the council must take into acount the feelings and arguments of the community when they vote.
Well, if you find it unhealty, we have nothing to discuss.

 

[Togevoir]

I definitely think that Mushy needs to go. It is very overcentralizing in the same way that Suicune is in UU. Except in Suicune's case there are multiple hard counters that are still good even when not playing against it (Toxicroak). However if you're not able to set up w/ Sneasel, and you aren't running Bastiodon then it is nearly impossible to stop. In my opinion you don't always need two members dedicated to handling it, but the fact that every time you build a team you have to make sure your team can handle it is in fact Overcentralizing.

I don't feel the need to post all the checks and counters as my list all but mirrors Leprechaun's

Final Recommendation: Ban plz

 

[BadPandaPancham]

I definitely think that Mushy needs to go. It is very overcentralizing in the same way that Suicune is in UU. Except in Suicune's case there are multiple hard counters that are still good even when not playing against it (Toxicroak). However if you're not able to set up w/ Sneasel, and you aren't running Bastiodon then it is nearly impossible to stop. In my opinion you don't always need two members dedicated to handling it, but the fact that every time you build a team you have to make sure your team can handle it is in fact Overcentralizing.

I don't feel the need to post all the checks and counters as my list all but mirrors Leprechaun's

Final Decision: Ban plz

I don't really feel like it's over centralizing as I said earlier, because there are still great mons and by it's usage statistics there hasn't been any evident over centralization. It's more of the fact that it is dominant compared to a lot of Pokémon or against a lot of Pokémon in the tier by being able to perform so many roles and being a great fit onto plenty of different types of teams, hyper offensive or defensive. It is such a good pivot, or support, or late game sweeper, or wall, or cm passer, or cleric, and the best part about it is this: while it suffers from Four Moveslot Syndrome (FMSS), it can still be multiple of those at once. It is very flexible and efficient in the current state of the PU metagame and while there is 1 or 2 hard counters and a handful of checks, there is still little reason not to run it. Honestly, there isn't, it provides so many options for your team, from TWave crippling to walling, or passing those increbly versatile and slow dry or cm boosts onto another Pokémon meaning Musharna could see you have a check/counter and BP out of the field.

 

[Togevoir]

I don't really feel like it's over centralizing as I said earlier, because there are still great mons and by it's usage statistics there hasn't been any evident over centralization.

I do agree with your other points, though I disagree with your overall deduction. I would simply like to point out that I honestly didn't see much Mushy till about 1400 on the ladder (this is why I believe it has modest usage statistics), and now when I'm at 1350 I don't see much of it. I think this is because a lot of people newer to PU don't use this wonderful mon. I certainly didn't until I got swept a few times.

 

[Ares]

Something I would like to bring up is that usage statistics have nothing to do with whether or not a mon is broken or over-centralizing. For instance, in NU recently there was a Combusken suspect, from the usage stats Combusken wasn't used what so ever (it got used more in high level play and battles, and when a suspect was announced), and yet it didnt make Combusken any less centralizing or broken. Keep that in mind when looking at usage statistics as they might not be an accurate representation of the situation at hand as they dont encompass tournaments and other high level playing. Just something to think on when looking at Musharna for this suspect test.

 

[Aurorusite]

So Scorp talked about it a couple of pages ago, but he had HP water ?.? and passho berry (which is a good lure). But I want to talk about Ninetales again because atm it is ridiculously good at breaking stall and even sweeping on balance/HO teams. With Nasty Plot and fantastic coverage between Fire Blast / Flamethrower, Energy Ball, and Psyshock, Ninetales has all of the characteristics of a great setup sweeper. It has a pretty good speed tier at base 100 speed, and has decent bulk allowing it to take a hit or two from priority or while setting up. Not to mention with Flash Fire it becomes a good fire check if your team is weak to fire spam.

Ninetales @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast
- Psyshock
- Energy Ball

Set is pretty straight forward. Max speed and special attack to hit as hard as possible while still outspeeding stuff. Timid for more speed. Leftovers is for increased longevity, I personally am not a huge fan of LO. Nasty Plot for boosting, Flamethrower for more PP and 100% accuracy or Fire Blast to hit harder, Psyshock to hit special walls on the physical side and for anything its super effective against no Hariyama or Dragalage to nail, Energy Ball is for Water-types like Poliwrath who will try to check Ninetales. Fun set, try it out.


I also wanted to talk about how surprisingly good Mono-ice is. I originally made a mono ice team just for fun expecting it to be terrible, but it turned out to be really really good. It obviously struggles with a couple of fire types like Substitute Simisear, but other than that it was quite good. It has some really awesome threats on it which is how I originally thought of making Mono Ice, I started off with lead Delibird and sub split Rotom Frost and saw the huge amount of ice types and decided to go with a mono ice team.

The Team

Rotom-Frost @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Pain Split
- Thunderbolt
- Blizzard

Aurorus @ Choice Specs
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 176 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 76 Spe
Modest Nature
- Ancient Power
- Thunderbolt
- Nature Power
- Flash Cannon

Avalugg @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 148 Def / 112 SpD
Impish Nature
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
- Avalanche
- Mirror Coat

Articuno @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Roost
- Freeze-Dry

Delibird @ Focus Sash
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spikes
- Destiny Bond
- Rapid Spin
- Freeze-Dry

Piloswine @ Eviolite
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
- Icicle Spear

Will just comment on each of the mons and how good I think they are.

Rotom-Frost- this thing is a beast, sub split is so good against slower teams and between its to STABs very little is resisting it offensively. Blizzards accuracy sucks but what can you do. HP Ice imo

Aurorus- people keep underestimating this thing and they keep getting destroyed by it. Its ability is amazing in Refrigerate and lets it patch up its decent stats and hit like a truck, plus Tri-attack is such a good attack in the first place but then to have it STAB and 104 BP move plus the chance for all of those statuses. It can also run a banded set which catches people off guard and gets a ridiculously powerful 132.6 BP move with STAB, this physical set hits like a truck. I have also seen a Rock Polish set, but have yet to try it out so cant comment on it.

Avalugg- so originally when I chose this I was wary of it, because of the bad stigma that it gets in NU / RU. However after investing in SpD and giving it Mirror Coat Avalugg takes specially based moves really well and destroys literally everything with Mirror Coat.

Articuno- this was my special wall and it does a reasonably good job of toxic stalling things and taking hits, not much else to say there.

Delibird- people are like this is such a bad mon, however its suicide lead set is actually really good, guaranteed to get up a layer of spikes unless taunt and then usually getting a KO with Destiny Bond, just have to be aware of mons trying to set up on you. Freeze dry is for coverage, not really ment to be attacking anyways.

Piloswine- needed a good fire check and with Thick Fat Piloswine is able to check Fire-types reasonably well, this thing is ridiculously good and not much to say that hasnt already been said. Oh and I needed a stealth rock mon.

Yep so theres my team and thoughts on those Ice Pokemon. Feel free to use the whole team or a variation or even just one of the sets. And no Sneasel cause I'm just cool like that lol.

Honestly, just use freeze-dry over T-bolt. You actually hit HARDER because stab. Flash cannon gives no coverage (other than hitting other aurorus, maybe?), you should try HP ground (to hit bastiodon) or perhaps stick thunderbolt on that slot.

 

[BadPandaPancham]

Something I would like to bring up is that usage statistics have nothing to do with whether or not a mon is broken or over-centralizing. For instance, in NU recently there was a Combusken suspect, from the usage stats Combusken wasn't used what so ever (it got used more in high level play and battles, and when a suspect was announced), and yet it didnt make Combusken any less centralizing or broken. Keep that in mind when looking at usage statistics as they might not be an accurate representation of the situation at hand as they dont encompass tournaments and other high level playing. Just something to think on when looking at Musharna for this suspect test.

I agree completely, but what I meant to say is it brings up a point on the question "Is Musharna overcentralizing? Are you forced to dedicate at least 2 team slots to handle it?" The usage statistics were by no means my main argument or point, I was just saying if the Pokémon isn't exactly super prevalent on the ladder it definitely can be broken, but that shows little to no signs of overcentralization from there. I'm trying to say a lot of common Pokémon still check it (Banded Scyther, Mightyena, Taunt leads, Trick Choice Item, Bastiodon/Camerupt, Ursaring, Flareon, etc.) so it's not overcentralizating since no, technically you don't need to take up multiple team slots to handle it, it's more of how much do you want to sacrifice of your team to ensure Mushy is a lot easier to deal with.

 

[TheGamefreak484]

I dont feel like Musharna needs a ban. I think banning pokemon because of 1 or 2 moves is kinda... over the top. If you ban baton pass on Musharna, I can keep enjoying my personal fav. set:
Musharna @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Psyshock
- Heal Bell
- Shadow Ball
- Moonlight

^ Works like a charm, but far from overpowered/unbalanced.

 

[Ares]

I dont feel like Musharna needs a ban. I think banning pokemon because of 1 or 2 moves is kinda... over the top. If you ban baton pass on Musharna, I can keep enjoying my personal fav. set:

A couple of things, first Smogon does not do complex bans unless it is a move that is broken and not the Pokemon. For instance do you think Baton Pass is broken on Ariados, Beedrill, Delcatty, Dodrio, Drifblim, Emolga, Farfetch'd, Fearow, Flareon, Floatzel, Furret, Girafarig, Glaceon, Huntail, Hypno, Illumise, Leavanny, Ledian, Lopunny, Lunatone, Masquerain, Minun, Mr. Mime, Ninjask, Plusle, Rapidash, Sawsbuck, Shedinja, Solrock, Spinda, Volbeat, or Watchog?
Probably not lol, most of these Pokemon arent even a problem with Baton Pass due to one flaw or another. However if you banned Baton Pass outright then every single one of those Pokemon would lose access to it, and Pokemon like Huntail and Maquerain would pretty much become completely unviable. Then if you were to ban Baton Pass specifically on Musharna that wouldnt solve the problem (not to mention that Smogon doesnt do complex bans), yes that is two or three of Musharna's viable sets; however, the other sets are just as good and make Musharna just as much of a threat and suspect. Also some advice for future suspect tests look at the suspect as a whole, not just a small portion.

Musharna @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Psyshock
- Heal Bell
- Shadow Ball
- Moonlight

^ Works like a charm, but far from overpowered/unbalanced.

So I just want to suggest an improvement for your set. Run Signal Beam over Shadow Ball, reason being is that Shadow Ball doesnt provide as much coverage as Signal Beam does, Signal Beam allows Musharna to hit Dark- and Psychic-types while Shadow Ball gives coverage for Ghost-types which isnt needed as Psyshock takes care of most of them. Also just curious why you are running a specially defensive Musharna? It isnt unviable just a bit uncommon.

 

[gramer nazi]

I am constantly getting countered by Musharna in PU, the only viable option I have is running Zweilous. The fact that I need to run Zweilous solely for Musharna makes me think it needs to get the ban hammer. I can't set up with Zweilous, either. If I decide to go for dragon dance, it will just ohko me with a signal beam, or dazzling gleam.

Not to mention, you can't predict Musharna. I've seen toxic stall, physically defensive, specially defensive, life orb attacker, calm mind sweeper, calm mind baton passer, trick room and just an overall annoying set that thunder waves all of my offensive pokemon.
Musharna has a few acceptable counters in NU (like Liepard, Pawniard, Mismagius, Rotom, Pangoro, Golurk, etc,) which make Musharna vulnerable to several pokemon, as opposed to basically one.

Adding on the Zweilous part, the switch is too predictable. Musharna starts setting up calm minds, and all it has to do is dazzling gleam until I switch to Zweilous, or sac another pokemon to send it in safely. After I send it in safely, my opponent will switch out, and the cycle starts again a few turns later. Mightyena is another counter, but let's be honest, aside from countering Musharna, it is a terrible pokemon with only 90 attack, and 70 speed. There are a few pokemon with Super Effecttive STAB attacks, like Drifblim, the (awful) butterflies, and Gourgeist, but none of them really have strong enough attacks to even 2HKO Musharna, especially with the amount of specially defensive ones out there.

 

[DopestDope]

I can't set up with Zweilous, either. If I decide to go for dragon dance, it will just ohko me with a signal beam, or dazzling gleam

Zweilous doesn't get dragon dance

 

[The Leprechaun]

Dwebble @ Eviolite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Knock Off
- Toxic

This is a bit off topic but i'd really like to talk about this cutie. As there are no fully evolved mons with both stealth rock and spikes in the tier, i think dwebble may be the best option for hyper offensive teams at the moment as mons like garbodor and roselia can take up a much needed slot sometimes. With max speed investment, sturdy and eviolite, dwebble is likely to get up AT LEAST rocks and 1 layer of spikes but often he's able to do more than that as well whether it be a toxic/ knock off on a spinner or defogger. Pls consider this man :]]]